EV Digest 4171
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Jeep EV Update (New Controller!)
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: PM w/ separate lead for each brush?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) BB600 Purchase
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Electric boat controls
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Electric boat controls
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Etek, Dual ETek and ADC 6.7 Regen..Re: Comet CVT/Torque converters in
a lightweight ev?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Charging Terminology
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Just an IDEA, ya probably thouth of already. a PHEV survey
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: BB600 Purchase
by "Bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Rewinding 3 phase AC motors
by Mike Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) UPDATE - RE: (Flooded) battery shipping advice sought
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Just an IDEA, ya probably thought of already. a PHEV survey
by Felix Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) washingtonpost: Fans of GM Electric Car Fight the Crusher
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
>I think it's time to
> check out parallel strings for a lower voltage. I
> could do 4 parallel strings at 205Vdc nominal, or
> 230Vdc.
In case you haven't seen this:
10. Can I connect batteries in parallel to increase the total output
current capability?
While this works and used quite frequently, it is not a good idea
at least for two reasons:
1. No two (or more) batteries are created equal. As soon as you
connect two in parallel, the better one with higher voltage will
briefly "charge" the weaker one to some voltage in the middle,
maintaining it there and thus discharging itself. The better battery
will work harder under load while weaker one will have to work less in
the beginning of discharge cycle. The current supplied by each under
load is NOT the same and depends on internal resistance and state of
charge of individual batteries.
2. Since the voltage is the same on all connected in parallel
batteries, there is no equalizing possible during the end of charge
cycle, so the weak battery will be constantly overcharged and the
strong one (requiring more voltage) - undercharged. Situation will get
worse with each charge-discharge cycle causing premature degradation
of stronger batteries first. Weak batteries will start loading
remaining ones and eventually whole pack exhibit loss of capacity and
premature failure. Expect to have the lifetime of the pack of yellow
top Optimas 1.5 to 2 times shorter than without connecting batteries
in parallel, unless you provide means of monitoring EACH battery
condition separately and act as soon as imbalance is detected.
Remember, batteries don't die - they're being murdered. Need more
total power - go with higher voltage (so the current can stay within
manageable limits). Need more range - use 6 volt flooded. Need both,
go with advanced chemistry battery, but of course power and range
advantages come at premium cost.
3. For AC solution the current is not a problem - it is easy to
find a battery capable providing 280A peak current. Therefore there is
no need to parallel the batteries. If there is room, connect in series
as many as will fit and suspension will handle (without severely
compromising handling). If all the batteries you want for given
voltage don't fit, use smaller ones but keep the voltage the same
rather than fewer batteries.
http://www.metricmind.com/qa.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jukka Jïvinen wrote:
> Heating the cell will level out the "loss" in the low SOC.
> Getting better performance and less V sag. But the whole
> issue seems to haul around on the cut off voltage.
right, I've observed this, more heat = less sag, more Ah till 3.0v.
( or is it more accurately, less resistance? )
Less heat, beginning arround 60F, more so below 40F we loose power,
or should I say resistance rises? an example from my data:
"Discharge-71:[EMAIL PROTECTED] & 35:[EMAIL PROTECTED] & 730:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
for total Discharge of...
"Discharge-837:85 3.11v Charge+834:152 27 f Cycle 99
So at 27F the normal 700-800mAh 2A discharge droped to 71mAh in 2
minutes, a secnd try at 2A gave 35 mAh more in 1 minute. Then by
cutting back the discharge to 0.5A I see the remaining 730mAh, but
it takes 85 minutes, for a total of 837mAh out.
> Going repeatedly under 2 V will eventually show up as reduced
> cell performance. With lithium ,as mentioned many times, voltage
> is NOT a indication of SOC. You need much more to even to use it
> as reference. Temp, lifetime, original Rint, load, etc.
I haven't purposfully ran those tests, but that would seem to fit
my observations, and the specs of the chemestry. Most list a min
voltage greater than 2.0v but less than 3.0v. NEC sais 3.0v, TS
tests say 2.5v ( and 2.0v under abuse ). 3v is a nice safe point
probably about 80-90% DOD.
Also cycle #60: ( which is an odd looking spike in capacity )
"Discharge-749:22 3.20v @[EMAIL PROTECTED] for total discharge of...
"Discharge-933:43 3.40v Charge+920:121 62 f Cycle 60
Was a 2A discharge followed by a 0.5A discharge at 62F, 933mAh.
This is pretty close to the new 0.1A capacity of 940mAh, see...
"0.1C 940mAh (89.5%) 1.26A ( low rate test, 89.5% of nameplate )
"1.0C 836mAh (86%) 12.6A ( this is ~the scooters cruse rate )
"2.0C 749mAh (71%) 25.2A ( this is TestCell#1's testing rate )
"2.5C 659mAh (63%) 31.5A ( scooter actually peaks higher @4C )
With short 4C bursts I feel within the cells capabilities, since
the voltage remains above 3.0vpc durring accelleration untill
the last mile or so of range. Even then It doesn't fall much
below 2.5vpc, though I "tred lightly" as I reach this low SOC.
I've never seen 2vpc on the scooter pack, and I never intend to.
> Emil Naepflein kirjoitti:
> > On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 16:50:16 -0800, Lightning Ryan wrote:
> >>a high rate discharge you can't lower the rate and get the other
> >>half of it's capacity out because it's lost due to Puckerts.
> >
> > No, the energy is not lost. Please read through the following:
> > http://www.ee.ncue.edu.tw/note/data/o/21/91.pdf
> >
> > A similar effect probably happens to Lithium cells.
Gonna go check out that Puckert pdf now...
...err, I hate algebra, I should probably just keep myself out of
these discussions when they start getting to technical for me.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh $hit!
I was charging my 12 volt battery with my brainless "car battery"
charger as I now have no DC/DC. Well, I forgot that I left the charger
on the 10 amp setting. It had been on for like 2.5 hours and the voltage
had gone up to 17.3 volts when I caught it and the battery was hot! I
immediately disconnected the charger (after muttering some obscenities
to the stupid charger). It was a good thing the battery was really low
when I started charging or It probably would've gotten to an even higher
voltage. Did I just ruin my sealed Hawker Odyssey battery or did I only
hurt it badly? :-(
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
>I went for a drive tonight and
> the DC/DC blew the external 10 amp fuse a few minutes into the drive.
> Any ideas?
On page 3 in the instructions for the DCP DC/DC, it mentions using a
10a fuse rated at 250VDC for 156v and under battery packs and a 10a
fuse rated at 400VDC for 192 - 336v packs.
What are your 10a fuses rated at?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
> Since the brushes are currently wired in bunches of 4 to the 2 motor
> terminals: With 8 leads, and assuming 4 separate, parallel torque
> generation coils in the PM field of an ETEK, splitting these into
> separately excitable windings, the way I see it you could excite
> this in the following ways:
>
> Config Vmax Imax Wmax Kb^-1
> 1S4P 48v 135amp 3600RPM 72RPM/V
> 2S2P 96 67.5 7200 36
> 4S1P 192 33.8 10800 18
Correct in principle, except that the Etek coils aren't wired this way.
In effect, it is all one single loooong loop of wire; not independent
coils.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those of you that can't get through, or those that are interested and
haven't paid yet....
I have set up a quick and dirty ebay listing
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3880658968
search BB600 if the link doesn't work.
You can use this to reserve and pay for the number of cells you desire.
After all of the orders are in, then we will figure out the best way to
ship them.
There are quite a few people that have expressed interest and are only
about 100 miles from each other, and obviously can save quite a bit on
shipping costs by combining pallets. Each person will have the final say
in how their order is to be shipped, but I will be able to suggest
"partners".
For those that planned to pay via my e-mail instructions, it will save me
a few cents by not using ebay, but ebay will provide a nice "database"
feature for me too, so I guess it's a wash. Use what you're comfortable
with.
I hope I've been able to reply to everyones questions. If not, hit me
again please.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
Roy, are you familiar with the Electric Boats YAHOO Group?
Its a great resource for electric boat converters/enthusiasts---and I just
became the moderator.
Yes Myles, you do a great job helping the folks on that list. :^D
Thank you for your input.
Yesterday at work, I had non-stop inquiries on boat drives all day long,
sold a few complete drive systems.
We are kicking around some designs and thinking of making something in-house
that will work.
Thanks again!
> Hi Roy and All,
> --- Roy LeMeur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Additionally on this subject...
> >
> > I usually tell folks to use an existing dual-cable
> > control hooked up to two
> > Curtis PB-6s.
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes with wheel stands t match;)
Mike G.
Rod Hower wrote:
I just measured the NiCd's in my golf cart, they are
STM-180, 7.5"x10 1/8"x9 1/4", so I could fit 684 cells
in the same area as 6 of my Saft STM-180 batteries, 19
bb-600's per 1 SAFT STM-180.
Looking at the weight 3.2 lbs*19 is 60.8 lbs or 365
lbs of batteries (I have about 300lbs with 6 SAFT's at
36V currently). So thats 820 Volts in series with
34Ahr capacity. Using 1200V IGBT's I could do an AC
induction or BLDC drive to run this cart. 820 Volts
nominal or 920V charged, that's scary!!!. Full charge
voltage would be 1160Vdc!!!. I think it's time to
check out parallel strings for a lower voltage. I
could do 4 parallel strings at 205Vdc nominal, or
230Vdc. This sounds more resonable. Or possibly 16
parallel strings at 57.5Vdc. That's alot of watering
and interconnects!
It should give pretty good range on the golf cart
though!
--- Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
The dimensions I have are 3 1/16" by 1 1/8" on top,
and 9 1/4" tall. I
don't have one to measure but I believe this is to
the top of the cap.
--chris
Rod Hower said:
What are the physical dimensions of these
batteries?
I searched but couldn't find anything.
Thank's
Rod
--- Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
ORIG SPECS-
http://www.drms.dla.mil/catalog/pdf/33-5004.pdf ,
look for item 20
20. Battery, Storage:
SAFT AMERICA INC.
P/N 017371-000
Nickel Cadmium aircraft battery.
MSDS: CFCTF, SC0400 4266UAA4.
NSN 6140-00-881-6887
DEMIL CODE A
CONTACT: GWEN CHERRY PHONE: 804-279-6206
Inside - H050110A0
Boxes on 6 banded wooden pallets.
Unused - Containers in good condition
Total Cost - $249664.00
Est Total Wt - 32096 lbs.
DOT HAZ CLASS: 8
236 PACKAGE
as per Tim Humphrey, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
They are 1.2 volts and 34ah per cell.
The cells used are 9 13/32 inches high, 3 9/64
inches wide, and 1
25/64 inches deep. Each cell weighs
approximately 3 1/2 pounds
So I worked up a 300 cell pallet size using the
follow numbers per cell - 9.5h x 3.25w x 1.75d
300 x 3.5 lbs = 1050 lbs + 25lb for pallet =
1075lbs
300 cells = 12 rows x 25 cells
= 39" x 43.75" x 9.5 " high, which
leaves room for wooden sides on a 48 square
pallet.
rate as per freightquote.com is $514.67 by
Carrier Name: OLD DOMINION FREIGHT LINE
Terminal City: SYRACUSE, NY
Terminal Phone: 315.463.0029
This would be to 85736 with no lift gate
required, I
then added the lift gate (residence del) and got
$680.
I've written Tim to ask how he plans to reship
them.
From the orig specs it seems that they come in
containers. Are they the same alum containers
that
Philippe showed us
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/Aprilia%20Eproject%20001.jpg
? If so then it makes sense to get them in groups
of
20 like in the photo, which would ease his
repacking
process.
I want 300 cells, so anybody in my area that
wants
some, let me know and we can get them shipped
together. Or if feasable I can join the SoCal
group
and pick them up there, or even pick up mine and
somebody elses shipment. Let me know on or off
list.
Rush
Tucson AZ
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.0 -
Release
Date: 3/8/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you for the link, but there was little to no info on that company
website.
I have found that (generally, but not always) a real company usually has
actual info and prices on the website.
Even the links to the PDFs did not work.
(kewl pictures though :-)
We are working on something in-house, thank you for you input.
pekka wrote:
Roy,
maybe this is what you need: http://www.kraeutler.at/zubehoer_e.htm
I hve no idea about the prices but have been thinking about getting one of
those for my own boat.
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi all batt buyers
I am in so so cal (SanDiego) and will contribute up to
$500 for batts and shipping. I will come to LA area
to pick up my share but am limited to weekends. There
must be some point of diminishing returns on these
combined shipments but if someone puts together a
large shipment and gets a good rate I am interested.
Rev gadget has said that he is buying 400 but i don't
know what shipping arrangements he has made.
--- Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A good central point might be Manteca/Lathrop for
> NorCal and
> Pomona for SoCal. Manteca is equidistant from the
> Bay Area,
> Sacramento and (almost) Fresno, and Pomona at the
> 57/210
> split is equidistant to LA, Orange and San
> Bernardino/Riverside
> counties. I happen to pass through both those
> points on my
> trips, so this might just work out.
>
> So how 'bout it? Anybody else?
>
> --------
> From: Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 8:37 am
> Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal
> group buy?
>
> It seems like there are enough people in CA looking
> at buying some of
> Tim's cells that a group buy might have some
> advantages. Personally, I
> wouldn't mind picking up the batteries if they were
> in a central
> location. The Bay area or Sacramento seem like they
> might be the most
> central locales. Hopefully Tim has a good idea of
> where everyone is and
> can try to let us know how the geographics of a
> group buy could work
> out. Count me in!
> Nick Aronoff
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hastings wrote:
> Sounds like a comet isn't the way to go. My 3 wheeler...
> about 600 lbs loaded with driver and batteries... I want to
> drive the rear wheel with a belt... My concern with a single
> ETek is I won't have enough power from start or my top end
> speed will be too low and then of course the ETek overheating.
You may be right. The Etek is efficient, but not a good high-current
(i.e high-torque) motor. With a fixed gear ratio, I don't know if you
could get enough torque at low speeds without resorting to such a low
ratio that you would overspeed the motor at high speeds. Even two Eteks
may not be able to accellerate fast enough or climb steep enough hills
for you if you gear it for a really high top speed.
So, something like a variable speed transmission may be your best best,
whether a gearbox with fixed gears or a variable-speed transmission of
some kind.
Or... perhaps you could use one Etek and one series motor. Use the
series motor for its high-torque low-speed performance, and the Etek for
efficient high-speed cruising.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> What does the following stand for when referring to a battery charging
> algorithm? I1, I2, U, I3a
They come from the European standard method of defining battery charging
algorithms. "I" means constant-current. "U" means constant-voltage. An
IUI charger therefore starts at constant-current, then switches to
constant-voltage, and ends at constant-current. To discriminate between
them when there are multiple I-stages, they number them (I1, I2, etc.).
So, you could say a charger has an IUI charging algorithm, where I1=10
amps (the first I), U1=14.4 volts (the one and only voltage step), and
I2=2 amps (the final I).
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Cal Cars:
Been talking up your PHEV cause as much as we can from Seattle here.
Was very pleased with the article on PHEV's in Newsweek last week.
I have had this IDEA for some time. ( What do you think ??)
How much money do you think it would take to obtain a mailing list of as
many hybrid owners, (Toyota and Honda) as possible, and then to send
them the following simple questionnaire, where-by you could FEED Toyota
the results. ( which I am SURE would be in favor of PHEV option)
Dear Hybrid owner:
If at the time of your purchase, if there had been the OPTION of
having a Plug-In Hybrid Vehicle as described below, would you have opted
for it if it had been.....
a. Standard
b. a $1000. Factory option
c. a $2000. Factory option
d. a 3000. factory option
e. Regardless of how much extra the option was.
A Plug In Hybrid (PHEV ) is one where by Electric Only Drive is
enhanced, allowing one to drive faster and farther on Electric Only, up
to 25 to 40 mph and/or 30 miles. AND more importantly, allow the
Owner/Operator to either just buy more gas, OR CHARGE up the extra
batteries at home, or at night, thereby increasing the "Miles Per
Gallon" to 70 to 100 mpg. And electricity being much cheaper and more
efficient than gas, lowering ones overall operating expenses
significantly. Not to mention further lowering all emissions as well !
And of course your web site, for further information could be all over
the questionnaire. The KEY would be how to get the mailing list from
DMV or how ever mailing lists are created.
What do you think ?? Wouldn't it be GREAT to show Toyota that 75% or
80% of their customer base WOULD HAVE opted for PHEV if it were available ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
>> I don't see any way that the Zilla could have contributed to its
>> demise. But you never know, I may be missing something.
Nick Viera wrote:
> Once again, I'm not blaming the Zilla, Otmar... but it is rather
> strange that I NEVER had any problems with the DC/DC blowing its
> input fuse PRIOR to installing the Zilla. Maybe just a bad
> coincidence? or?
Well, let's think about it.
The DC/DC input probably has an input fuse, and a big filter capacitor
inside. If the pack voltage changes very rapidly, there will be a large
surge current as the capacitors charge or discharge. This surge current
can blow the fuse.
How might one get such a surge current. One possibility is with a very
high current motor controller. The controller also has a big capacitor
bank, to handle the huge pulsed currents produced as the controller
switches on/of/on/off at high frequency to control motor speed. If your
circuit winds up being nothing but a fuse and some wire between the
DC/DC and controller, then the DC/DC's input capacitors also see these
huge pulsed currents. This could blow the fuse.
Another possibility: The battery-to-controller wiring is fairly long,
and has lots of inductance. If the motor is running at high current and
something abruptly shuts it off (controller shuts off with no rampdown
or a contactor opens, etc.), the battery lead inductance is "charged" to
a high current that suddenly has no place to go. The voltage will kick
up tens or even hundreds of volts, and could blow the DC/DC's fuse or
even kill its transistors.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't made any shipping arrangements yet. but let
me know how many are coming to LA and can get quote.
I'm hoping that we can get the shipping below 1 buck a
cell. weekend pick up is no problem as I live in my
warehouse. I can even store them for a little while if
that helps anyone.
Gadget
--- keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> hi all batt buyers
> I am in so so cal (SanDiego) and will contribute up
> to
> $500 for batts and shipping. I will come to LA area
> to pick up my share but am limited to weekends.
> There
> must be some point of diminishing returns on these
> combined shipments but if someone puts together a
> large shipment and gets a good rate I am interested.
>
> Rev gadget has said that he is buying 400 but i
> don't
> know what shipping arrangements he has made.
>
>
>
> --- Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > A good central point might be Manteca/Lathrop for
> > NorCal and
> > Pomona for SoCal. Manteca is equidistant from the
> > Bay Area,
> > Sacramento and (almost) Fresno, and Pomona at the
> > 57/210
> > split is equidistant to LA, Orange and San
> > Bernardino/Riverside
> > counties. I happen to pass through both those
> > points on my
> > trips, so this might just work out.
> >
> > So how 'bout it? Anybody else?
> >
> > --------
> > From: Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 8:37 am
> > Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal
> > group buy?
> >
> > It seems like there are enough people in CA
> looking
> > at buying some of
> > Tim's cells that a group buy might have some
> > advantages. Personally, I
> > wouldn't mind picking up the batteries if they
> were
> > in a central
> > location. The Bay area or Sacramento seem like
> they
> > might be the most
> > central locales. Hopefully Tim has a good idea of
> > where everyone is and
> > can try to let us know how the geographics of a
> > group buy could work
> > out. Count me in!
> > Nick Aronoff
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
> Yes, but that only tells me what NOMINAL voltages they can accept. My
> voltage range might be too high for 120 volts Nominal, but too low for
> 240 volts nominal???
Correct. What you should look for is a "universal input, power factor
corrected" switching power supply. This type of supply does not use a
voltage doubler, and can accept any voltge throughout its input range
(typically 90-265 volts AC, which is equivalent to 126-370 volts DC).
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim
I just noticed this thread. Am I correct in thinking that we can get
them at $1 each? Do we know when they were made? Do we know if they
are good?
Does this include shipping to socaq? I am in Ojai. Is there anyone
anywhere near me that wants some.
I would need 480 for my van.
Thanks Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Humphrey
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 7:51 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: BB600 Purchase
For those of you that can't get through, or those that are interested
and
haven't paid yet....
I have set up a quick and dirty ebay listing
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3880658968
search BB600 if the link doesn't work.
You can use this to reserve and pay for the number of cells you desire.
After all of the orders are in, then we will figure out the best way to
ship them.
There are quite a few people that have expressed interest and are only
about 100 miles from each other, and obviously can save quite a bit on
shipping costs by combining pallets. Each person will have the final say
in how their order is to be shipped, but I will be able to suggest
"partners".
For those that planned to pay via my e-mail instructions, it will save
me
a few cents by not using ebay, but ebay will provide a nice "database"
feature for me too, so I guess it's a wash. Use what you're comfortable
with.
I hope I've been able to reply to everyones questions. If not, hit me
again please.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry
Ford
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am thinking about getting a 3 phase motor rewound to put into an electric
vehicle. It has a rated continuous hp of 27. How much peak hp would it be
possible to squeeze out of this thing if it is going to be rewound?
I did some back-of-the-napkin calculations and here is what I came up with:
38 exide orbital batteries gives a nominal batt voltage of 456V.
Orbitals can put out 1000A at 10.1V (Thanks to Rich for this info I think)
which equals 383kW. This translates to a peak achievable hp of 513 at the
motor shaft. Assuming 85% efficiency, this reduces to 436 hp.
In order to get the motor to take 1000A, I did some specific heat calcs for
copper and it looked like 6 gauge wire would be needed if I was going to
sustain this current for 10 seconds and stay below the max insulation
temperature.
I had a couple questions for the group.
1) Is it feasible to wind a motor with 6 gauge wire?
2) Would I be encroaching on saturating the stator or rotor with these types of
power levels?
3) Would I be able to get a rotor which would take this current, or does it get
rewound during the rewind process as well?
I've never rewound or had a shop rewind a motor. I was planning on having a
shop rewind this one; I will give them a call and ask them some questions at
some point, but I thought I would see what you guys thought first.
Mike
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As far as I know you can't ship them. The ones I have were trucked by the
buyer. LR.......
Where are they and where are they going? I might be able to help.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
Did you let the shipper know that this would be a hazardous material
shipment?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan B" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:58 PM
Subject: BB-600 Nicad Cells
Hi,
Anyone in the northern california looking to buy some? Shipping for 300
is over 525, but for more cells coming to california, the cost-per-unit
should go down.
Interested? We would pay Tim individually, then pay for the total
shipping using freightquote.com. Could store them here if needed for
pickup? I get a sizable discount through them. Or can someone get even
more of a discount? Any better ideas?
Bryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is some information that I found out about:
1. I was looking for sealed, non-venting battery caps that could
be screwed on during shipping but was unable to find some
2. trojan however, has better, individual caps with a bajonet lock
that replace the push-in, combined single cap for 3 cells that
I currently have on T105s. These new caps will not leak even if
the battery is tipped over for a short period (several minutes).
They are sending me some of those caps (at no cost!) :)
3. deka told me that I can't take the acid out of the batteries,
no matter what the state of charge is, they claim I would ruin
the batteries when I refill with new acid after shipping. I am
not buying this but am passing it along ...
Markus
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Markus L
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 2:41 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: (Flooded) battery shipping advice sought
>
>
>
> Hi Battery Gurus,
>
> I am about to ship my two elec-traks overseas and it looks like
> I can't ship them with the flooded batteries in. It seems I now
> have two options
>
> 1) remove the acid and ship them dry. Then purchase new sulfuric acid
> upon arrival. Questions here
> 1) should I remove the acid when they are fully discharged
> (so how many
> volts/cell?) or when they are fully charged?
> 2) what to do with the old acid, where to bring it, in what
> container to
> store it?
>
> 2) sell the batteries. In that case I have a set of six brand
> new (not a
> single cycle)
> DEKA 215 Ah golf cart batts for sale in SW Virginia and a
> set of six used
> Trojan T105 with plenty of life left (just moved and
> spread 10 tons of
> gravel
> with them on a single charge and they were still going strong)
>
> Any advice? Golf cart batteries are 2x the price in Europe
> than here. Thanks
>
> Markus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steven
Thanks for writing....we're definitely on the same wavelength about
enlisting the power of buyers to influence car-makers and encourage them to
build production gas-optional or plug-in hybrids (GO-HEVs or PHEVs). As you
probably know, the EV1 vigil group has been asking GM to build PHEVs.
I don't think it will be very easy to get contact info for Prius owners,
and it won't be cheap. How about instead starting with the more than 10,000
Prius owners who already are part of online venues (the Yahoo groups,
priuschat.com, etc.)? We could enlist them in this effort, and get them to
organize locally (perhaps dealer-by-dealer).
And I'd rather wait until we're beyond the prototype phase (if you didn't
catch it, see the story about the first Lithium-ion PRIUS+
<http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/3>). We hope to
be able to offer to early adopters, through our for-profit partners, an
aftermarket installed conversion kit. At the same time, we can talk about
what it would look like if Toyota did it (we think it would add about
$3,000 from them), and start organizing activities to demonstrate how many
Prius owners would go for that.
Keep those ideas coming! Regards, Felix
At 08:33 PM 3/9/2005, Steven Lough wrote:
Dear Cal Cars:
Been talking up your PHEV cause as much as we can from Seattle here. Was
very pleased with the article on PHEV's in Newsweek last week.
I have had this IDEA for some time. ( What do you think ??)
How much money do you think it would take to obtain a mailing list of as
many hybrid owners, (Toyota and Honda) as possible, and then to send them
the following simple questionnaire, where-by you could FEED Toyota the
results. ( which I am SURE would be in favor of PHEV option)
Dear Hybrid owner:
If at the time of your purchase, if there had been the OPTION of
having a Plug-In Hybrid Vehicle as described below, would you have opted
for it if it had been.....
a. Standard
b. a $1000. Factory option
c. a $2000. Factory option
d. a 3000. factory option
e. Regardless of how much extra the option was.
A Plug In Hybrid (PHEV ) is one where by Electric Only Drive is enhanced,
allowing one to drive faster and farther on Electric Only, up to 25 to 40
mph and/or 30 miles. AND more importantly, allow the Owner/Operator to
either just buy more gas, OR CHARGE up the extra batteries at home, or at
night, thereby increasing the "Miles Per Gallon" to 70 to 100 mpg. And
electricity being much cheaper and more efficient than gas, lowering ones
overall operating expenses significantly. Not to mention further lowering
all emissions as well !
And of course your web site, for further information could be all over the
questionnaire. The KEY would be how to get the mailing list from DMV or
how ever mailing lists are created.
What do you think ?? Wouldn't it be GREAT to show Toyota that 75% or 80%
of their customer base WOULD HAVE opted for PHEV if it were available ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founder California Cars Initiative
http://www.calcars.org
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whoa. 6 x19 is 114not 684 cells & that's over 2000 pounds..... You're
looking at a 136v pack at 387 pounds. LR............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
I just measured the NiCd's in my golf cart, they are
STM-180, 7.5"x10 1/8"x9 1/4", so I could fit 684 cells
in the same area as 6 of my Saft STM-180 batteries, 19
bb-600's per 1 SAFT STM-180.
Looking at the weight 3.2 lbs*19 is 60.8 lbs or 365
lbs of batteries (I have about 300lbs with 6 SAFT's at
36V currently). So thats 820 Volts in series with
34Ahr capacity. Using 1200V IGBT's I could do an AC
induction or BLDC drive to run this cart. 820 Volts
nominal or 920V charged, that's scary!!!. Full charge
voltage would be 1160Vdc!!!. I think it's time to
check out parallel strings for a lower voltage. I
could do 4 parallel strings at 205Vdc nominal, or
230Vdc. This sounds more resonable. Or possibly 16
parallel strings at 57.5Vdc. That's alot of watering
and interconnects!
It should give pretty good range on the golf cart
though!
--- Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
The dimensions I have are 3 1/16" by 1 1/8" on top,
and 9 1/4" tall. I
don't have one to measure but I believe this is to
the top of the cap.
--chris
Rod Hower said:
> What are the physical dimensions of these
batteries?
> I searched but couldn't find anything.
> Thank's
> Rod
> --- Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> ORIG SPECS-
>> http://www.drms.dla.mil/catalog/pdf/33-5004.pdf ,
>> look for item 20
>>
>> 20. Battery, Storage:
>> SAFT AMERICA INC.
>> P/N 017371-000
>> Nickel Cadmium aircraft battery.
>> MSDS: CFCTF, SC0400 4266UAA4.
>> NSN 6140-00-881-6887
>> DEMIL CODE A
>> CONTACT: GWEN CHERRY PHONE: 804-279-6206
>> Inside - H050110A0
>> Boxes on 6 banded wooden pallets.
>> Unused - Containers in good condition
>> Total Cost - $249664.00
>> Est Total Wt - 32096 lbs.
>> DOT HAZ CLASS: 8
>> 236 PACKAGE
>>
>> as per Tim Humphrey, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> They are 1.2 volts and 34ah per cell.
>> The cells used are 9 13/32 inches high, 3 9/64
>> inches wide, and 1
>> 25/64 inches deep. Each cell weighs
>> approximately 3 1/2 pounds
>>
>> So I worked up a 300 cell pallet size using the
>> follow numbers per cell - 9.5h x 3.25w x 1.75d
>> 300 x 3.5 lbs = 1050 lbs + 25lb for pallet =
1075lbs
>> 300 cells = 12 rows x 25 cells
>> = 39" x 43.75" x 9.5 " high, which
>> leaves room for wooden sides on a 48 square
pallet.
>>
>> rate as per freightquote.com is $514.67 by
>> Carrier Name: OLD DOMINION FREIGHT LINE
>> Terminal City: SYRACUSE, NY
>> Terminal Phone: 315.463.0029
>>
>> This would be to 85736 with no lift gate
required, I
>> then added the lift gate (residence del) and got
>> $680.
>>
>> I've written Tim to ask how he plans to reship
them.
>> From the orig specs it seems that they come in
>> containers. Are they the same alum containers
that
>> Philippe showed us
>>
>>
>
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/Aprilia%20Eproject%20001.jpg
>> ? If so then it makes sense to get them in groups
of
>> 20 like in the photo, which would ease his
repacking
>> process.
>>
>> I want 300 cells, so anybody in my area that
wants
>> some, let me know and we can get them shipped
>> together. Or if feasable I can join the SoCal
group
>> and pick them up there, or even pick up mine and
>> somebody elses shipment. Let me know on or off
list.
>>
>> Rush
>> Tucson AZ
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.0 -
Release
>> Date: 3/8/2005
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Washington Post 3/10/05
Fans of GM Electric Car Fight the Crusher;
Activists, Auto Buffs Stage Vigil to Save EV1
By Greg Schneider and Kimberly Edds
The morning is too chilly for her flirty purple skirt and pink top,
so former "Baywatch" actress Alexandra Paul wraps her bare legs in a
fleece blanket and settles down for a long sidewalk vigil in Burbank,
Calif. Passersby on scooters toot their horns, and a security guard
smiles and waves as he walks by. Both he and the actress are there for
the same reason: to keep an eye on a parking lot full of colorful,
two-door cars behind a nondescript suburban office building.
Those cars are rarities, the last surviving batch of rechargeable
electric coupes built by General Motors Corp. in the late 1990s. Paul
and a band of homemakers, people with desk jobs, engineers, Hollywood
activists and car enthusiasts are 23 days into a round-the-clock vigil
aimed at keeping GM from destroying the cars.
What's at stake, they say, is no less than the future of automotive
technology, a practical solution for driving fast and fun with no
direct pollution whatsoever. GM agrees that the car in question, called
the EV1, was a rousing feat of engineering that could go from zero to
60 miles per hour in under eight seconds with no harmful emissions. The
market just wasn't big enough, the company says, for a car that
traveled 140 miles or less on a charge before you had to plug it in
like a toaster.
Some 800 drivers once leased EV1s, mostly in California. After the
last lease ran out in August, GM reclaimed every one of the cars,
donating a few to universities and car museums but crushing many of the
rest.
Enthusiasts discovered a stash of about 77 surviving EV1s behind a GM
training center in Burbank and last month decided to take a stand.
Mobilized through Internet sites and word of mouth, nearly 100 people
pledged $24,000 each for a chance to buy the cars from GM. On Feb. 16
the group set up a street-side outpost of folding chairs that they have
staffed ever since in rotating shifts, through long nights and
torrential rains, trying to draw attention to their cause.
GM refuses to budge, but several factors give those at the vigil hope.
The auto industry underestimated the appeal of gas-electric hybrid
vehicles, and now the Toyota Prius, Honda Accord Hybrid and Ford Escape
Hybrid are selling faster than factories can build them. Gas prices are
headed higher this spring than last year, when they broke the
$2-a-gallon barrier, and sales of Detroit's biggest SUVs have softened
so much that makers are cutting back production.
Earlier this year, two men who leased discontinued electric pickup
trucks from Ford Motor Co. staged a week-long sit-in at a Sacramento
dealership after refusing to surrender the trucks at the end of their
leases. Ford reversed an earlier decision and agreed to sell them the
vehicles, and now it is setting up a program so other lessees can buy
their trucks.
"If Ford can do it, why can't GM?" asked Chelsea Sexton, a former GM
employee who helped organize the Burbank vigil.
The company says that it cannot sell the cars because it would have a
legal obligation to service them and that it can't provide service
because many suppliers quit making the 2,000 unique parts that went
into the design.
Most automakers experimented with electric power during the 1990s when
California threatened to require them to sell zero-emissions vehicles.
The state eventually backed off the requirement, and one by one the car
companies dropped their electric vehicle programs.
The EV1 was widely considered the best of the crop because of its
performance and innovative engineering, using a teardrop shape for
slick aerodynamics. GM says it gave the EV1 every chance to succeed,
spending more than $1 billion on development and dedicating an entire
Michigan plant to producing it. But the world's biggest automaker said
the car never had appeal beyond a core group of technology enthusiasts
and environmentalists.
"There is an extremely passionate, enthusiastic and loyal following
for this particular vehicle," GM spokesman Dave Barthmuss said. "There
simply weren't enough of them at any given time to make a viable
business proposition for GM to pursue long-term." Instead, GM is
developing hydrogen-powered fuel cells, a technology it hopes to market
within the decade.
Even Toyota Motor Corp., which kicked off the alternative-power craze
with its Prius, has concluded that U.S. consumers simply have an
aversion to the idea of plugging in an electric car for a recharge. The
latest ad campaign for the Prius emphasizes that "you don't have to
plug it in," after focus groups and Internet surveys convinced the
company that some consumers worried about that, Toyota spokeswoman
Cindy Knight said.
Nonetheless, Toyota is aware of a growing fad among do-it-yourselfers
who put a new battery in their Prius so it can be plugged in at home
and then travel about 20 miles on electric power alone, she said.
Sexton, the former GM employee, said people who had daily exposure to
the EV1 learned to love the plug-in feature of the car. She started
working for the company's Saturn division in 1993, then volunteered for
the EV1 program in 1996 and quickly became a zealot. "I even met and
married an EV1 technician," she said.
Her son, 6, spent his earliest days around the cars and now has
written messages to GM in chalk on the sidewalk outside the Burbank
building. "This is something we're all committed to as a family because
we've all lived and breathed this project," said Sexton, who has filed
Internet reports from the vigil site by hooking her computer to a solar
panel the group also uses for making tea.
For three weeks, she and a rotating group of colleagues have staffed
their site in four-hour shifts around the clock. Their cardboard signs
-- "GM make a U turn" and "Sell the EV1 for scrap. $24,000 each" --
are now curled from the heavy rains that drenched Los Angeles last
month. Yesterday morning, Paul staffed the site alone, but by afternoon
nearly a half-dozen people were there. Every weekend the vigil stages a
rally that draws anywhere from two dozen to 100 people, Sexton said.
Other celebrities have dropped by, including Ed Begley Jr., and Woody
Harrelson has posted updates about the vigil on his Web site.
Last week, a big truck rolled up to the GM parking lot and took on
about seven of the EV1s. Vigil participants briefly blocked the truck
from leaving but stood aside when asked. Two of them followed the truck
140 miles toward Palm Springs, Calif., far enough to reinforce their
speculation that it was headed to a GM facility in Mesa, Ariz., that
enthusiasts have long thought was the crushing ground for discarded
EV1s. GM had assured them that large numbers of the cars remained in
use by researchers, but former EV1 driver Kenneth Adelman obtained
aerial photos of the Arizona site to confirm that the cars were meeting
their demise there.
Barthmuss, the GM spokesman, acknowledged that the cars are being
recycled. "That does include flattening the vehicle so it can go
through the various mechanics of recycling," he said, adding that he
did not know what percentage of the fleet had been destroyed. He said
that the cars stored at Burbank will eventually be hauled away for
various purposes but that he knows of no set schedule.
What to do when the next truck comes has become a heated issue within
the group -- to stand by passively as the cars are loaded and taken
away, or to interfere. "Our policy is if anybody as an individual wants
to take active resistance that's up to the individual. But as a group
we're taking a passive stance," said Ted Flittner, a vigil participant
and Costa Mesa industrial engineer who never owned an EV1 but used to
enjoy riding in a friend's.
He accepts that the situation doesn't look promising but said the
plight of the EV1 has helped bring attention to an innovative
environmental project. "It's just so wasteful," he said. "They have
such a brilliant solution they've developed. They've put it on the
market and proved it works. People still want it and they're taking it
away and destroying it."
Edds reported from California.
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--- End Message ---
