EV Digest 4185
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Electravan cord & safety switch problem.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: ProEV wins first Autocross of 2005
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Anyone know if GM has a DC office?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) help
by Roger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Big battery
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Fix a Blown Link 10 EMeter
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Electravan cord & safety switch problem.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: 400 lb-ft, 22" BLDC motors, 120#, on Ebay, ending today
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 400 lb-ft, 22" BLDC motors, 120#, on Ebay, ending today
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) car show
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) 1959 English Ford Anglia homemade hybrid on Ebay
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Sorched wire somewhere. More Electravan problems.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Electravan problem found.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Advice on electric scooter sought
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Anyone know if GM has a DC office?
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Electravan cord & safety switch problem.
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Regenerating a series wound motor
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: ProEV wins first Autocross of 2005
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Was GM DC office & EV-1 Vigil
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Dumass claims anopther victem, story at 11
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) DC converter option?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) RE: Was GM DC office & EV-1 Vigil
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) car show
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Mil surplus NiCad's
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_ProEV_wins_first_Autocross_of_2005?=
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: car show
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) EV1 Rememberances
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Was GM DC office & EV-1 Vigil
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Any new EV cars for sale?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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A little extra problem. There is a big diode going into the positive side
of the 12v battery. Is it possible the combo of 24v from the pack to body
and the 12v battery sorched the diode? I do get positive to neg.
continuity on the diode. The switch was bypassed as both leads to it were
tied together. I'm seeing some sparks when I hook up the connector. I'll
try again. Seems everything is ok. No melted wires so far.
LR.................
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: Electravan cord & safety switch problem.
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Bad design. There is a nut holding the switch in the center of the four
charging contacts. It unscrewed welding to the contact point of the 12v
system. The truck runs but I can't get 12v out of the receptical.
Something blew. Also the switch has two wires to one contact. The only
thing I can think of is it is supposed to disable the 12v system without
which the truck goes no where. It must somehow make continuity to ground.
LR........
Not bad design, really really bad design. I sold my Jet 007 years ago, so
I am working from memory here, so correct me if I am wrong. The
receptacle on the EV is four prong male, the connector on the charger
output is four prong female. The switch is a long stem single pole
normally closed switch mounted in the center of the EV receptacle in place
of a center contact. Unplugging the cord completes a circuit allowing the
main contactor to close. When these switches failed, most were bypassed
or removed.
Now, what is wrong with this picture. Well we have four male prongs
sticking out of the receptacle that are always live. Two are pack
positive and negative, two are 12 volt positive and negative. Either way,
a disaster waiting to happen. Just add water or fingers or.... The
charger output end is female, which makes sense until you realize the
charger won't power up without first being connected to the batteries.
The charger output should be male, the EV inlet should be female. Yes,
this is just the reverse of normal EVs, but remember you are feeding DC
out of a charger not AC into one. On my Jet I replaced the defective
connectors with a four prong roto-loc 30 amp female receptacle on the car
and a matching male plug for the charger. In my case I gave up the "no
drive off" protection. For you I would suggest using a 5 prong connector
pair, with the extra pin jumpered to the 12 volt negative pin on the
charger side. On the EV side, feed that lead to one side of the coil on a
12 volt relay. Feed the other side of the coil from the "ignition" hot.
Wire the normally closed contacts on the relay to complete the 12 volt
circuit originally wired to the receptacle switch. Now, when the cord is
plugged in and the ignition is turned on, the relay will energize, open
the 12 volt feed to the main contactor, and prevents the EV from being
driven. Removing the plug cuts power to the relay and permits the main
contactor to close allowing the EV to operate.
FWIW, I understand the original plugs and receptacles were a custom order
item made especially for the Jets.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
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Hi Otmar,
Great job with the win! I've always believed that EV's can be very
competitive in Autocross.
I also enjoyed watching the in car videos! They were a bit jumpy in
playback, but that's typical for Windows Media Slayer :-). Still, it's
lot's of fun to watch and I can see how reviewing videos between runs
could be very useful. I've been tempted to get out this season, we have a
big 914 event next weekend. Seeing your video tempts me more..
Do. The California Poppy would make quite an impression!
I've done some EV autocross myself and have always done fairly well.
Snowhite was wicked fast and they put us in the A mod class. Here's a pic
from a race at Candlestick park years ago.
http://cafeelectric.com/Snowhite1.jpg
Is there more information out about this car? Google and Copernic don't led
me to much. What batteries, motor, controller, weight? How many times did
the car compete? Useful lessons about EVs and autocross?
I would be tempted to race the car without regen unless you've found a way
to balance the regen and mechanical brakes for optimum balance. Late
braking can buy you a lot in autocross.
The regen braking is evenly distributed between front and rear wheels. At
this point, it is giving us about 170 lbf-ft. Not enough to really stop us
at race speeds but still useful. The mechanic braking is adjustable front to
rear. Braking, I instantly apply the regen brake with my left foot, then
blend in the mechanical brake with my right foot.
From a pure speed point of view, just using the mechanical brake would
probably be the best method for now. I am still having to train my mind (and
my feet) to use the combined braking. This takes away from my ability to
concentrate on using the brakes most effectively.
Part of the goal of ProEV doing autocross is to prepare the car and driver
for closed circuit road racing. Recapturing energy is an important part of
our strategy. So the driver better get his mind around braking with both
feet<G>. Better to make mistakes with cones than with tirewalls.
At this point, based on Kokam's original conservative recommendation, we are
limiting our amps in to the battery pack to around 200. As we get more
information, we hope to increase this eventually to the 600 amps that the
inverters can supply. It is good to see that Kokam has been testing charging
their R/C batteries at a constant 5C. That would be 350 amps for us. There
are some nice graphs at http://www.kokam.com/english/biz/rc.html. The fifth
graph down is High rate charge profile at various charging currents.
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
Thanks
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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Does DC have a good GM office to drive over and protest at?
CZ
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I saw today at an automotive dealer, a 12 volt batt, it's a 200 amp batt,
that looks like an old truck battery, about 50 cms x 30cm x 30 cm, it's
about as big as three normal automotive batts, but packs 4 times the amps,
the clerc said it was meant for large discharge rates in large trucks.
It is huge in everything, huge cells, huge filling caps, huge posts.
it's just a big lead acid batt, made by Yuasa but is it better for an ev or
worse, I have read in the list that it is better to use lots of 6 volt
batts.
I found this photo on the ev album that shows one of those batts, it's
another brand, but it's the same size.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/358b.jpg
What do you think ?
Ivo.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Lawrence Rhodes
Enviado el: martes, 15 de marzo de 2005 12:08
Para: Mark Dodrill; EV List
Asunto: Re: Advice on electric scooter sought
El Chopper ET. Perfect for this application.
http://www.21wheels.com/elchopper.html Moped class vehicle
http://www.21wheels.com/elchopper_ET.html Full motorcycle class vehicle.
Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 12:52 PM
Subject: Advice on electric scooter sought
> Hello all. It's been so unseasonable warm and sunny here in Seattle this
> year, I've been thinking using an electric scooter to get to and from
> work, instead of my car. A full electric car just isn't in the cards
> for me now, but I did get a tax refund that might work.
>
> I'm looking for an electric scooter that meets the following
> requirments:
>
> * It's a 11 mile (~18 km) commute one-way, so I'm sure I would
> need to charge at work.
> * Total elevation change is about 200 feet from start to finish,
> with about a 250 max elevation gain in the middle.
> * Max speed required is 40 mph for about 1 mile
> * Other times speed is between 25 and 35 mph
> * Some rolling hills but I can avoid any steep up/downgrades
> * Full enclosure not required since I plan to ride only when
> it is relatively nice
> * Either homegrown or production would work
> * Efficiency is more important than looks
> * Needs to haul 200 lbs of people and stuff
> * Don't care about battery weight, size, or chemistry, as long as it works
> * Needs to have a seat
> * Probably need at least a 750 watt motor
> * Probably a 36 or 48 volt system
> * Price of around $1500 US
> * Ability to pull out the battery pack for charging is a plus
> (even if it is 70+ lbs)
>
> Does anyone have a suggestion on what I could use here to meet these
> requirements, or modify something existing to meet them?
> Ebay has a couple of interesting items: 7140833081,7141765328.
>
> Also, if anyone knows of licensing/insurance issues related to scooters,
> I'd appreciate that as well.
>
> All feedback/thoughts appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
> Mark
>
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.2 - Release Date: 11/03/2005
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> input and **may** be a reverse polarity diode. Any
> suggestions on how to repair?
Unless you're familiar with the component(s), interconnections and SMT
soldering, you're not gonna have much luck---even replacing a diode could be
frustrating.
I'm surprised that their tech support didn't offer to try to repair the
meter, or, failing to succeed in doing so, offer you a replacement at a good
cost.
I almost sent my first Emeter (pre-Link10) in to Xantrex for upgrade to add
the RS-232 serial interface. The cost was to be around $70, but when the
time came to send it in, the person I spoke with in the service department
indicated that this was an estimate, and that it might even cost
more...eventually, I was offered a refurbished Link10 with all the latest
firmware and RS232 for a very reasonable rate, including shunt.
I've been very happy w/Xantrex and the Link10. I highly recommend wiring it
up with a single removable connector for all the wires going into the meter.
In this way, there's not a chance of getting any of the wires connected
incorrectly or in the wrong sequence should you end up having to
connect/disconnect batteries, the shunt or other things.
-Myles
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Is this what your receptacle looks like, Lawrence? (ignore the prong labeling)
http://www.stayonline.com/reference/nema_images/nema_l15-50r.gif
And is this receptacle where you plug in your AC line? In other
words, does this receptacle lead to the onboard charger AC input?
Thanks,
Richard
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Markus L wrote:
> DC controllers operate around 20kHz... wouldn't it be trivial to use
> higher frequencies (e.g. 600 - 1000 Hz) in an inverter for these
> motors.
Normal PWM DC motor controllers switch at 15-20 KHz, but their output
current is basically DC (as befits a DC motor). The motor's field
winding filters out most of the high frequency AC.
The magnetic circuit of most motors is either solid steel, or laminated
iron sheets. Solid steel is fine for the parts of the motor with
permanent magnets or DC currents in the windings because the magnetic
field is basically constant (no AC).
But the parts of the motor that have coils carrying AC need laminated
iron cores. The laminations prevent eddy currents, which would cause
extra losses and heating. The higher the frequency, the thinner the
laminations need to be. This makes the motor harder to build,
mechanically weaker, and more expensive.
If you try to build an efficient AC motor above 1000 Hz, the laminations
become as thin and weak as tinfoil. Designers generally give up on them,
and change to a powdered iron or ferrite core. These are ceramic-like
materials with a high percentage of iron. Now the cost goes up
considerably; they are only used for exotic supermotors.
> The voltage of 235v sounds typical (if not low) for an AC drive EV.
Except that voltage goes up with frequency. If this motor needs 235vac
at 60hz for 60rpm, it needs 470vac at 120hz and 120rpm, or 4700vac at
1200hz to reach 1200rpm!
The problem is not the mechanical strength of the rotor; it is eddy
current losses from the 1200hz and insulation strength in the windings.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> But you think that ebay robot motor would be too slow for such an
> application, because of excessive back EMF?
I think that motor was designed for very low operating speed, and
probably won't run at much over 100 rpm. As a wheel motor, that's only
going to give you 10-20 mph.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Last Saturday was Okeechobee's car show along with a craft show which is
held every year . I was there last year with my Mazda EV pu and was planning
again to go this year . I was about half done with the 1930 Mercedes Gazelle
kit car a week before the show when It hit me that this would be the car for
the show.
http://www.grassrootsev.com/projects.htm . So for the week before the show
, My EV friends Tom and Yvette came over and everyday we working on the car
, along with a few late nights I had it ready for test drive 2 days before
the show. The plan was to drive it to tom's house in Okeechobee ( 30 mile
run ) , charge there then to the show . Last year I felt a little out of
place at a car show with a 86 Mazda pu work truck , but this year I fit
right in with this fine looking car. Last year the Mazda was a big hit ,
with a crowd of people standing around it most of the time . I had the same
kind of crowd this year . It was a gathering spot with asking question,
venting price gas rage, and telling stories going on all day ( 2 very
insistent gen on the wheelers :-) .
So how dose the car run , well I'm still braking in the motor , and
batteries so no real pushing it , it's also not mine , and unlike the 2
motor Porsche the owner did not say " make it go as fast as you can " . But
a little tap on the go peddle in 1st even when going 10 mph will brake the
wheels lose and bark the tiers. A light car and 240 v 1k is plenty of power.
Steve clunn
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Decent unrestored condition in Calif.., and supposedly an attempted
'hybrid'-powered car, photos show a motor w/belt drive flywheel above the
driveshaft---Prestolite?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=453381466
0&category=6057&sspagename=WDVW
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Fire in the hole. I get continuity between the 12v and 120v systems. The
nut welded to a 12v and 120v connection. The Electravan runs but no way to
charge yet. It is arcing between the 12 & 120v pins. 20v between one 12v
and one 120v pin. 24v between the other. 3v between the positive and
negative 12v pins. Yuck. There is a melted wire somewhere. I'll have to
do a visual search. LR..................
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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Hmmmm 40vdc between the 12vdc pins in the receptical. Must be a carbon
trail or slag I don't see. I think I can replace with standard 4 pin male
twist lock. LR...............
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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Try here, they are not pricy, and seem ok, you would have to confirm
range, seems a little bit too much, but since you have decided to
charge at work, it's no problem.
http://www.goldenmotor.com/JDbike/JD-ebikeprod.htm
As far as I can tell, these are inexpensive Chinese bikes that (besides
looking very unstylish) are FAR from the performance spec this user
asked for.
For a 40mph top speed, this user will need to get a custom ride, most
likely. Most of the larger Vespa type scooters have only a 30 to 35mph
top speed.
To get a solid 40mph, you might want to look at something with an ETEK
motor. These can provide the kind of performance you are looking for.
Take a look at the Jackal by Brian Hall at Thunderstruck motors
(http://thunderstruck-ev.com). This ride can be geared for your speed
needs and it is a smooth ride with monster suspension front and rear.
The advantage of this design is that it looks like an electric bicycle
allowing you to ride trails if you like.
Another option is the electric GPR by Todd Kollin at Electric Motorsport
(http://electricmotorsport.com). This ride can be juiced up for freeway
speeds if desired, but as it is a full size electric motorcycle, you'll
be stuck riding in the street only.
Last of all, if you want a really large stand up scooter that can fill
the bill, look into the "Racer" by Badsey. (http://badsey.com) It looks
very different, but if you like living large, this thing looks like a
scooter on steroids, and you can get a seat if you really want one.
Also, rumor has it that some new electric chopper bicycles with the ETEK
motor are coming out later this year.
Hope this helps!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
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Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:57:19 -0500
From: Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Any new EV cars for sale?
To: [email protected]
Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
My mistake on price - the one I saw (item #4532258791) actually went for
$36,210.00 so likely the same as the second of the two you saw.
George S. wrote:
> At 10:11 AM 3/11/05 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> And a used Rav4-EV went for around $33,000 on eBay a few days ago...
>> so loyal fans still exist.
>
>
> I saw two on ebay recently one for $37000 and one just under. Is this a
> third one?
>
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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