EV Digest 4191
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Series-parallel switch (resend, fixed ASCII)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV-1 possible solution
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Renualt LeCar
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Devil's advocate
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Real Winner
by "David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Devil's advocate
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Series-parallel switch
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: EV-1 possible solution
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Specfic Gravity low. Voltage high. Range low.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Devil's advocate
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Force jerkiness on very slow startup
by "Mark Villemaire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) DC DC Converter
by Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV-1 Vigil
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Force jerkiness on very slow startup
by "Mark Villemaire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Renualt LeCar
by Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) The original NEV, Sebring Citicar on Ebaymotors
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Devil's advocate
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: The original NEV, Sebring Citicar on Ebaymotors
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: DC DC Converter
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) More usable list format
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Wheel bearing, brake dragging Re: Renualt LeCar
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: EV-1 possible solution
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
You know, I never get tired of stories like these.
As high minded as I like to be about how they contribute to a cleaner
environment and lessen foreign dependencies, I can't deny that much of
what drives my own project is a desire to have EV experiences like those
of Otmar and Wayland.
Thank you guys for feeding my addiction.
BTW, does anyone have a line on how much the 8" Warps will take in
voltage and amps?
Current plans for the Ghiamonster are to run three of Otmar's high
voltage 1K controllers into three separate 8" Warps. The pack is a set
of 84 of the 11lb SVR-like batteries in three strings. I figured I
could set the voltage limit for about 170V to protect the motors and,
assuming about a 50% sag at full power, still use up everything the pack
could dish out.
This seems true at least once the vehicle is moving pretty well but
during launch, even though the Ghia has a transmission, am I right that
those 1K controllers may be throwing away power at the 1K amp limit that
these batteries can still manage? Am I throwing away significant power
with the 1K controllers that I could recover with the 2K controllers
even though I have a transmission?
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Otmar
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 12:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
(snip)
The light turns green and I take off normally. I'm not trying to save
energy at this point so when I say "normal" that would be just fast
enough to avoid squealing the tires. It helps that I've got the
series mode current turned down to only 1600 amps so my normal start
happens to be pedal to the metal. Normal as in 0-60 in 5 seconds
normal... Mr Mustang is clearly not expecting this so I leave him
behind as I normally do to everyone. I let the car shift to parallel
mode, feel the strong pull hit me in the back and then let up to
avoid breaking 50 in this quiet area. Mr Mustang catches up with me
and hangs back just a bit, presumably to take in my many stickers
proclaiming "Zilla Powered", "Powered by 100% American Electrons" and
Zero Emissions Vehicle". I'm guessing it was a bit too dark for him
to make out the "Eat my Volts" sticker on the rear window.
(snip)
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got my gas mask from a well thought of surplus guy! The fact is I
now driving around town daily in my Kia Sephia with a controller
that has no electronic parts that anyone could build for under $100.
Perfect Control , good acceleration. Tonight I am going to try a
contactor at the top end and see how much of a jerk there is. I
tried the contactor last night while parked and there was just a
slight rpm increase. Should be a nice transition and the electrolyte
won't get as hot. Go ahead and laugh, get it out of your system. :)
I timed my self in the 1/8 last night at 45 mph easy. And they are
right about just adding more plates for more amperage. I started out
with 2 plates for 150 amps, 4 plates gave me 300 amps. I now have 6
plates. I am using eight Wal-Mart batteries. I just did my Kia
conversion in about 80 hours for under $800. You just don't realize
how many people there are out there that really, really want to
build an EV but can not afford to buy these expensive controllers
and such. I found a 15 inch, 2 foot long forklift motor at a machine
shop the other day for $300. When I get it in my Kia, I will See ya
at the track,
Jack.
More power to ya!
But I say you're dreaming if you think you'll get 2000+ amps from
those Mall-Wart batteries!
I'll be happy to race you at the track any day. I do a bit over 75mph
in the 1/8th. We used to race with contactors. They can be very fast
but it's hard to avoid blowing up batteries, maintaining traction,
and still keeping the drivetrain in one piece. Adding the resistive
element would certainly add some controllability to it.
Resistor controllers (which is what you've built) can work very well.
Hundreds of thousands of golf cars used them for many years. I think
you can still buy a new golf car with one. The first EV's had them as
well, but most of the time they also used series parallel switching
of the batteries, which in your case is an excellent idea to increase
efficiency.
Resistor controllers can even be very efficient if the system is set
up to spend most of it's time at full throttle. Make the field
adjustable and you get smooth control at the top end. Have a look at
the conversions of the 1970s and early 80s. It sounds like you are
duplicating what people did back then.
Of course resistor controllers don't do current multiplication so
anytime you are running at less than full voltage to the motor you
are throwing away quite a bit of energy, but designing a car for the
driving conditions it will be in can help avoid those inefficient
areas of operation.
Once again, I say, More power to ya! We need inexpensive conversions as well!
Please though, my one request, do pay particular attention to safety.
Not that I think you are doing anything unsafe (I have no idea about
the gas issues), but historically safety is the first thing people
ignore when they are trying to save money. The last thing the EV
community needs is the bad PR of people getting killed by poorly
engineered conversions. Low cost does not exclude well engineered. Do
your homework and I believe you can make a very low cost and safe
conversion.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm confused- how does the series to parallel switch happen and how
does it enhance motor power and amp consumption?
Thks
Rush
Tucson AZ
Hi Rush,
Here is a snippet from the EV list some time ago.
If this does not clarify things, then please let me know what is
missing and I'll try to answer it.
Sorry, I screwed up the ASCII art the last time I sent it too...
This should be better.
At 12:30 PM -0700 4-17-04, Otmar wrote:
OK. Let's think about this a bit. Why did Otmar chose to shift at
1/2 the peak amps (and are we talking battery or motor amps,
anyway?)?
Let's assume it is *motor* amps that determine the shift point. When
the motor amps drop to 600A in series mode, and the controller shifts
to parallel, the motor amps stay the *same* provided there is enough
battery voltage available to push the controller back into current
limit. RPM doesn't change instantaneously, so there is no stair step
in power; the shift to parallel just makes full pack voltage
available to each motor so that they can continue to build speed
while amps/torque continues to fall off.
I know Otmar is trying to follow this thread, so perhaps if I haven't
put him to sleep already he can chime in with a proper explanation of
how/why the 'Zilla implements series-parallel shifting...
Pretty much just as you said. I first had the shifting happen at a
certain adjustable RPM, but that's inefficient on the street and does
not compensate for battery temperature and state of charge, so I
devised the auto shift and left the option of a manual shift for
those who want to experiment.
When the Hairball is set to Autoshift mode it works like this:
It starts in series mode for maximum torque and for low controller
current in regular driving. Then when you put the pedal to the metal
the Hairball starts to pay attention.
In order to start a shift to parallel, the first requirement is that
the controller is at 100% duty cycle. (this is the right side of the
mountains shown below) This means the controller is full on the
battery amps equal the motor amps. If the controller is still acting
as a transmission then there would be no reason to switch the motors
yet since the resulting power would be less after the shift.
At this time, the motor and battery amps are dropping as the vehicle speeds up.
A simple way to view the HP to RPM curve of a series motor in a EV is
to imagine it as a upside down V. The upramp of the curve is the
controller in current limit, the downslope on the far side is when
the controller is full on and the motor BEMF is limiting power.
In order to maximize the power under the curve, I believe you want to
shift when the falling series curve of motor power vs rpm crosses the
rising curve of the motors in parallel. This turns out to be when the
series mode current is half of what is available after the shift.
Here's a bit of ASCII art, let's see if I can do this.
View with fixed width font like Courier.
| /\ / \
| / \ / \
| / \ / \
H | / /\ \
P | / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
|// \ \
______________________________________________
^ ^ ^ ^ RPM ^
| | | | |
| | | | | BEMF limited, 100% on falling slope
| | | |
| | | | Parallel mode peak HP.
| | |
| | | Shift point (~ 50 mph in my car)
| |
| | Series mode peak HP
|
| Controller in current limit on upslope of curve
By the way, it's interesting to note that these curves are pretty
much the same as the power curves seen when shifting a mechanical
transmission.
Just FYI here are the same curves when the battery current limit is
lower than the motor current limit. The lower the battery current,
the less important the actual shift point timing becomes.
|
| ____ _________
| / \ / \
H | / /\ \
P | / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
|// \ \
______________________________________________
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Frank Schmitt wrote:
>
> some of them went to educational institutions and museums
> >
> > Yes... but to the best of our knowledge, they have all been butchered
> > and stripped, and came with legal contracts that prohibited ever
> > putting
> > them on the road again.
> >
>
> Western Washington University (my sort-of alma mater -- I did a vehicle
> design post-bacc there in '98-'99) got one last year. They'd taken out
> the batteries and the motherboard out of the controller and left
> everything else.
Hmm... I wonder how thorough GM has been. It might be worth surveying
all known EV1s that remain to see if they could still be
reverse-engineered. One might be missing the battery pack and inverter,
but still have the motor. Another might have a battery pack, but no
inverter or motor. A third might have the inverter, but no motor or
battery, etc.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:14 AM
> Subject: Re: Renualt LeCar
>
> > Is the amp gauge in series with the batteries, or the motor? 200 motor
> > amps is only a little high; mine is around 150 amps in 2nd gear at 40
> > mph.
> >
> > But battery amps should be a *lot* lower if you have a PWM controller
> > (Curtis, DCP, etc.). Mine, with a 132v pack, is more like 50 amps at 40
> > mph.
>
> How does where the amp gauge is make a difference? Is it because the
> controller only lets out the amps it is programed to? But even if the gauge
> was between the pack and the controller it would only see what the motor is
> using, correct?
The controller is the electrical equivalent of a transmission. The input
and output power are always the same (minus a little for efficiency).
But it can step the voltage down and the current up. For instance, 100
volts at 100 amps from the battery can be transformed at the motor to:
- 100v at 100a (fast, but little torque)
- 50v at 200a (half speed, half torque)
- 10v at 1000a (very slow, but very high torque)
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> I never understood, why not just use some filtered water that doesn't
> have chlorine in it and avoid the problems?
Because ordinary water is nowhere near conductive enough.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm familiar with that smell from my own "research" into high voltage
electronics. Oddly enough, the fountain outside of my working place
makes the same smell; as I understand it, flowing water also generates
ozone.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Sherry Boschert wrote:
And what about recycling? I've heard that 90% of
lead-acid batteries are recyclable, but I don't have a
source for that figure.
http://www.exide.com/recycling.html
Ideally, 100% of the lead/acid batteries could be and should be
recycled. I've often wondered on the numbers I've seen, why it's not
100% and what happens to those batteries that apparently don't get
recycled.
A question I've had for a while now but have been reluctant to bring
up. When I was young, I had a HO gauge electric model railroad. It
got it's power from the track rails, through the wheels, then to the
motors. For some reason, it would visibly spark sometimes as it went
around the track. After a while of this, it would make the room smell
like ozone. If you don't recall what that smells like, sometimes
during a lightning storm it will make the air smell like that.
Anyone here who works around electric fork lifts, do they produce
ozone to the effect that you can smell it? Those that have a DC EV,
have you ever smelt ozone that it produced? Or do neither of these
produce ozone from the brushes arcing?
Let's say everyone is cruising around in their brushed DC powered
cars(if they produce ozone). What would the effects be of creating
ozone at ground level.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now, here's a winner:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50552&item=5761261229&rd=1
This guy will tell you how to build an electric car that doesn't have to be
plugged in.
Could it be a hybrid??
Idea is only 6.5% of $50,000,000 to learn about and there is a 50% money back
guarantee if it doesn't work. So, bid with confidence!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry guy's Ozone is poisonous. The fountain may have an ozone generator to
keep the algae free and clean. Cheaper than Chlorine and Bromide tabs. Ozone is
generated a couple different ways but is hazardous to your health. We produce
quite a bit of it with UV light in the semiconductor business but it is
scrubbed in the exhaust. A few hot tubs use UV light to create ozone to keep
water clean but is in an open area so the hazards are minimized. CO and CO2
break it up pretty fast as well.
Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I'm familiar with that smell from my own
"research" into high voltage
electronics. Oddly enough, the fountain outside of my working place
makes the same smell; as I understand it, flowing water also generates
ozone.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
>Sherry Boschert wrote:
>
>
>
>>And what about recycling? I've heard that 90% of
>>lead-acid batteries are recyclable, but I don't have a
>>source for that figure.
>>
>>
>
>http://www.exide.com/recycling.html
>
>Ideally, 100% of the lead/acid batteries could be and should be
>recycled. I've often wondered on the numbers I've seen, why it's not
>100% and what happens to those batteries that apparently don't get
>recycled.
>
>A question I've had for a while now but have been reluctant to bring
>up. When I was young, I had a HO gauge electric model railroad. It
>got it's power from the track rails, through the wheels, then to the
>motors. For some reason, it would visibly spark sometimes as it went
>around the track. After a while of this, it would make the room smell
>like ozone. If you don't recall what that smells like, sometimes
>during a lightning storm it will make the air smell like that.
>
>Anyone here who works around electric fork lifts, do they produce
>ozone to the effect that you can smell it? Those that have a DC EV,
>have you ever smelt ozone that it produced? Or do neither of these
>produce ozone from the brushes arcing?
>
>Let's say everyone is cruising around in their brushed DC powered
>cars(if they produce ozone). What would the effects be of creating
>ozone at ground level.
>
>
>
>
Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Shay wrote:
> There's nothing series-parallel switching of batteries can do that
> can't be done much better with a modern controller.
Well now, I wouldn't say that... :-) Series/parallel switching is:
1. Cheaper.
2. Simpler.
3. Smaller.
4. More powerful (no current limit).
5. Easier to fix.
6. Tends to self-balance batteries when in parallel.
7. Can reconfigure batteries for easier charging (for example, use
either a 72v or 144v charger).
8. Add redundancy (can still drive on half the pack even if there
is a failure in the other half).
Of course, it has lots of drawbacks, too.
A. Poorer speed control (in steps).
B. Harder on mechanical parts (from the abrupt power changes).
C. Noisy (clack, clunk).
D. Contacts wear out over time (but are easily replaced).
E. Out of fashion.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good point
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Lee Hart
Enviado el: jueves, 17 de marzo de 2005 19:37
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: Re: EV-1 possible solution
Frank Schmitt wrote:
>
> some of them went to educational institutions and museums
> >
> > Yes... but to the best of our knowledge, they have all been butchered
> > and stripped, and came with legal contracts that prohibited ever
> > putting
> > them on the road again.
> >
>
> Western Washington University (my sort-of alma mater -- I did a vehicle
> design post-bacc there in '98-'99) got one last year. They'd taken out
> the batteries and the motherboard out of the controller and left
> everything else.
Hmm... I wonder how thorough GM has been. It might be worth surveying
all known EV1s that remain to see if they could still be
reverse-engineered. One might be missing the battery pack and inverter,
but still have the motor. Another might have a battery pack, but no
inverter or motor. A third might have the inverter, but no motor or
battery, etc.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 15/03/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These are US 125's. Charging at 18amps. I added water once with no change
in capacity. I had a charger zorch from a bad safety switch. I may have
the guts replaced. LR...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Specfic Gravity low. Voltage high. Range low.
This normally cause by the negative plates not defusing completely. This is
a old term use back in the 20's and 30's. When a battery discharges, the
chemical exchange is from the positive plate which is Lead Oxide or PBO2
exchanging with the electrolyte which is H2O + H2SO4 of where the Sulfate or
SO4 is in fusing into the negative plate.
At this time the electrolyte becomes more H2O which has a lower specific
gravity.
When you charge , this action reverses, which somewhat disulfate's the
negative plate.
As time goes by, the negative plates become more sulfated, making it more
resistance or making your battery a smaller battery in compacity.
The thicker the plates, or normally call a deep cell, the harder it takes
for the sulfated to travel up to the surfaced of the plate.
When batteries are new, a diffusion test should be done to see how long it
takes to recover to a certain voltage. This now is a reference to a test
you can do latter which you can used for comparison.
To do this test, drive the EV at the highest amperes it could take, until I
discharge to 50 percent.
Then record the voltage drop under a certain amp load.
Record the instant voltage recovery under no load.
Wait about 15 minutes and record the additional recovery time. (This is call
the diffusion time, where the SO4 has travel from deep in the plates to the
surface of the plates)
Used the records for a future reference when testing the batteries at a
latter date.
You may have like many others, which I have done too, is diluting the
electrolyte by adding water at the wrong time. It is best to add water only
when battery is discharge down to 50 percent and only about 1/4 above the
plates. The water mixes better during the charging cycle.
When the battery is charge, it is normal for this electrolyte to rise.
Adjustments of electrolyte level can be made at the next discharge cycle.
Also, if you let the battery set for a while, the top portion of the
electrolyte could read less than at the bottom portion, where the H2SO4 is
heaver than H2O and tends to settle to the bottom to the cell. This could
really throw you off in your SG readings.
Try to do a balance charge or equalizing charge to 15.5 volts or until the
specific gravity reaches 13.00. This will reduce the water in the
electrolyte to make it more conductive.
If your batteries are at a high amp hour rating 250 AH or greater with very
thick plates, it will take a higher charge ampere to disulfide the negative
plates. My old batteries which were 300 AH at 180 volts, had to charge to
252 volts which would be equal to 16.8 volts per 12 volt battery until the
specific gravity read 13.00 which I done about once a month.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]> ;
Zappylist<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 9:21 AM
Subject: Specfic Gravity low. Voltage high. Range low.
What does it mean when specific gravity of a flooded battery is low,
Voltage
is high and range is low? Is it possible that proper state of charge has
somehow not been met? I am baffled. Seems I'm getting the proper voltage
and amps do taper to near 0.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ground level ozone is a lung irritant.
I bet the xerox machines at my school make far more O3
than any EV ever will...
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sherry Boschert wrote:
>
> > And what about recycling? I've heard that 90% of
> > lead-acid batteries are recyclable, but I don't
> have a
> > source for that figure.
>
> http://www.exide.com/recycling.html
>
> Ideally, 100% of the lead/acid batteries could be
> and should be
> recycled. I've often wondered on the numbers I've
> seen, why it's not
> 100% and what happens to those batteries that
> apparently don't get
> recycled.
>
> A question I've had for a while now but have been
> reluctant to bring
> up. When I was young, I had a HO gauge electric
> model railroad. It
> got it's power from the track rails, through the
> wheels, then to the
> motors. For some reason, it would visibly spark
> sometimes as it went
> around the track. After a while of this, it would
> make the room smell
> like ozone. If you don't recall what that smells
> like, sometimes
> during a lightning storm it will make the air smell
> like that.
>
> Anyone here who works around electric fork lifts, do
> they produce
> ozone to the effect that you can smell it? Those
> that have a DC EV,
> have you ever smelt ozone that it produced? Or do
> neither of these
> produce ozone from the brushes arcing?
>
> Let's say everyone is cruising around in their
> brushed DC powered
> cars(if they produce ozone). What would the effects
> be of creating
> ozone at ground level.
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had a similar problem, and it was the throttle pot.
Mark L. Villemaire
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Olum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 1:59 PM
Subject: Force jerkiness on very slow startup
My new 1998 Force is now at Solectria ("Azure" now) where they have
not managed to diagnose the following problem: If I push very slowly
on the accelerator, the car jerks backward and forward without going
anywhere. In one case, trying to get off of a tow dolly I was able to
get the pedal to the floor without it ever having enough power to get
over the lip of the dolly. If I depress the pedal rapidly it seems to
work normally (but then I don't have much control in tight
situations). Anybody recognize this problem? Swapping the speed
sensor and the controller did not fix it.
Is there a Force mailing list, or is this the right place to ask such
questions?
Thanks.
Ken Olum
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I need a DC DC converter! I really don't have the money to spend on a
Sevcon or similar model, and need an inexpensive solution so I can drive
my EV reliably.
It was mentioned a couple days ago that a computer power supply could be
used/ modified to be a DC DC Converter. Will this work on a 90 volt
battery pack? Does anybody have any suggestions/ instructions on how to
modify it. I am familiar with electronics, but not that much with DC DC
converters. Also, does anybody have any experience with Peak to Peack
Power DC DC converters
(http://www.peacktopeakpower.com/catalogs/meanweel/sd-200.html)? It
looks like it puts out about 16 amps on 90 volts, and costs only about
$77.00.
Thanks,
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I think people were being nice because there was a remote chance to
> save the car. You didn't want to tick GM off too much if there was a chance
> they could reconsider. Obviously that's not the case now and its time to not
> be nice.
I may have missed it being talked about already, but how about a national
GM boycott?
an organized boycott (with mailouts, press releases, activities, etc)
might even get a little follow-up media coverage, and if it gets loud
enough to be even mildly effective, it might give pause to auto
manufacturers...
just a thought
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I made an error. One major difference between your problem and mine is that
at the mid-range of the pedal range the car would slowly accelarate then go
into hard regen, not from foward to reverse as in your case. For this
reason it is unlikely to be the throttle pot.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Villemaire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: "Mark Villemaire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: Force jerkiness on very slow startup
I had a similar problem, and it was the throttle pot.
Mark L. Villemaire
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Olum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 1:59 PM
Subject: Force jerkiness on very slow startup
My new 1998 Force is now at Solectria ("Azure" now) where they have
not managed to diagnose the following problem: If I push very slowly
on the accelerator, the car jerks backward and forward without going
anywhere. In one case, trying to get off of a tow dolly I was able to
get the pedal to the floor without it ever having enough power to get
over the lip of the dolly. If I depress the pedal rapidly it seems to
work normally (but then I don't have much control in tight
situations). Anybody recognize this problem? Swapping the speed
sensor and the controller did not fix it.
Is there a Force mailing list, or is this the right place to ask such
questions?
Thanks.
Ken Olum
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the info Lee! The motor seems to be fine.
Upon recently installing the Amp guage I noticed that the car
was drawing almost 200 amps cruising, and that it doesn't really
coast.
Is the amp gauge in series with the batteries, or the motor? 200 motor
amps is only a little high; mine is around 150 amps in 2nd gear at 40
mph.
But battery amps should be a *lot* lower if you have a PWM controller
(Curtis, DCP, etc.). Mine, with a 132v pack, is more like 50 amps at 40
mph.
The amp guage is in series with the batteries, and it is drawing about
150 amps. I think this might be due to the brakes. I was told the wheel
cylinders in the rear drum brakes were dragging and probably needed to
be replaced. So that is the next project, hopefully this will fix the
problem. Any other suggestions?
Also, what speed should I reach in each gear before I shift up/down. I
seem to only be able to hit about 25 in 1st, 40 in 2nd, and 45 or so in
third. Could this be due to the brake drag?
Also, does anybody have any tips on driving an EV for maximum range?
Thanks,
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6737&item=4535909662&rd=1
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > And what about recycling? I've heard that 90% of
> > lead-acid batteries are recyclable, but I don't have a
> > source for that figure.
>
> http://www.exide.com/recycling.html
This page might be better:
<http://www.batterycouncil.org/recycling.html
> Ideally, 100% of the lead/acid batteries could be and should
> be recycled. I've often wondered on the numbers I've seen,
> why it's not 100% and what happens to those batteries that
> apparently don't get recycled.
A problem (for EVers) is that lead acid batteries are used in large
numbers as the SLI battery in ICE vehicles, and many of those batteries
don't make it to the recycler. Even so, BCI states that >97% of lead
acid batteries are recycled, which is *much* higher than any of the
other commonly recycled materials.
So, it appears that 100% of a lead acid battery returned for recycling
is recycled, but 100% of the lead acid batteries don't make it back for
recycling.
> A question I've had for a while now but have been reluctant
> to bring up. When I was young, I had a HO gauge electric
> model railroad. It got it's power from the track rails,
> through the wheels, then to the motors. For some reason, it
> would visibly spark sometimes as it went around the track.
> After a while of this, it would make the room smell like
> ozone. If you don't recall what that smells like, sometimes
> during a lightning storm it will make the air smell like that.
Or just go stand next to a photocopier or laser printer ;^>
> Those
> that have a DC EV, have you ever smelt ozone that it
> produced? Or do neither of these produce ozone from the
> brushes arcing?
Brush arcing will produce ozone. (And it doesn't have to be a DC motor,
just brushed; the motors in my my corded electric handtools all have
some amount of brush arcing.)
> Let's say everyone is cruising around in their brushed DC
> powered cars(if they produce ozone). What would the effects
> be of creating ozone at ground level.
<http://www.tnrcc.state.tx.us/air/monops/ozoneinfo.html>
<http://www.epa.gov/air/urbanair/ozone/>
Interestingly, the major source of ground level ozone is ICE vehicles
emitting VOCs and NOx that react in the presence of sunlight to produce
ozone (O3). Perhaps more interesting, is that ozone is very reactive
and unstable and will react with NO in the presence of UV light to
revert back to O2 (2 O3 -> 3 O2). The NO is not consumed, so very
little NO is required to allow quite a lot of O3 to revert to O2. See
near the bottom of this page:
<http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/ozone/ozone.html>
So, as long as there are ICEs emitting NO in the vicinity of your
O3-producing EV, you may not have to worry about causing a net increase
in ground-level ozone ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce and All,
While a Citi-car is a great, inexpensive EV
it has a big advantage over a NEV as it can go on any
road except an interstate hiway. Unlike a NEV that can
only go on 35mph roads or less. Here in Tampa that
limits NEV's greatly as to get from one area to
another you must get on 45mph or hgher roads.
jerry dycus
--- bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6737&item=4535909662&rd=1
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike and All,
I use a 25amphr batt and a battery charger
and only need to recharge it once a week though with a
reg EV once every main pack charge would be required.
As I have a 12vdc batt charger and a batt
lying around it didn't cost anything!!!
KIS,
jerry dycus
--- Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I need a DC DC converter! I really don't have the
> money to spend on a
> Sevcon or similar model, and need an inexpensive
> solution so I can drive
> my EV reliably.
>
> It was mentioned a couple days ago that a computer
> power supply could be
> used/ modified to be a DC DC Converter. Will this
> work on a 90 volt
> battery pack? Does anybody have any suggestions/
> instructions on how to
> modify it. I am familiar with electronics, but not
> that much with DC DC
> converters. Also, does anybody have any experience
> with Peak to Peack
> Power DC DC converters
>
(http://www.peacktopeakpower.com/catalogs/meanweel/sd-200.html)?
> It
> looks like it puts out about 16 amps on 90 volts,
> and costs only about
> $77.00.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Sirs,
Would another form of the list -a web based forum-serve us better?
Pl look at the link below which deals with French cars.
www.aussiefrogs.com
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike and All,
--- Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the info Lee! The motor seems to be fine.
>
> >>Upon recently installing the Amp guage I noticed
> that the car
> >>was drawing almost 200 amps cruising, and that it
> doesn't really
> >>coast.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Is the amp gauge in series with the batteries, or
> the motor? 200 motor
> >amps is only a little high; mine is around 150 amps
> in 2nd gear at 40
> >mph.
> >
> >But battery amps should be a *lot* lower if you
> have a PWM controller
> >(Curtis, DCP, etc.). Mine, with a 132v pack, is
> more like 50 amps at 40
> >mph.
> >
> >
> >
> The amp guage is in series with the batteries, and
> it is drawing about
> 150 amps. I think this might be due to the brakes. I
> was told the wheel
> cylinders in the rear drum brakes were dragging and
> probably needed to
> be replaced. So that is the next project, hopefully
> this will fix the
> problem. Any other suggestions?
You can easily checkthis out by after a drive, go
around to all the wheels and touch them, careful so
you don't get burned, for any signs of heat. If more
than body temp you may have a problem there.
I do this every month and every few hrs on long
trips for my car and trailers.
If they are not warm, they are not the problem.
Repacking bearings in low drag grease is a good idea
if the car is old anyway.
You may want to change the tranny, diff fluid to
a lower drag type and feel the temp of your tires is a
good indication of their eff. Keep them as high
pressure as you can.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> Also, what speed should I reach in each gear before
> I shift up/down. I
> seem to only be able to hit about 25 in 1st, 40 in
> 2nd, and 45 or so in
> third. Could this be due to the brake drag?
>
> Also, does anybody have any tips on driving an EV
> for maximum range?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't forget about the S-10ev . Doesn't it have the same drive train?
Mike G.
Lee Hart wrote:
Frank Schmitt wrote:
some of them went to educational institutions and museums
Yes... but to the best of our knowledge, they have all been butchered
and stripped, and came with legal contracts that prohibited ever
putting
them on the road again.
Western Washington University (my sort-of alma mater -- I did a vehicle
design post-bacc there in '98-'99) got one last year. They'd taken out
the batteries and the motherboard out of the controller and left
everything else.
Hmm... I wonder how thorough GM has been. It might be worth surveying
all known EV1s that remain to see if they could still be
reverse-engineered. One might be missing the battery pack and inverter,
but still have the motor. Another might have a battery pack, but no
inverter or motor. A third might have the inverter, but no motor or
battery, etc.
--- End Message ---
