EV Digest 4195
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Range trailer
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Dual Charging
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EVLN(China Revives Market for Plug-in Electric Vehicles)
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: more hybrid ideas-smoothing the flow
by John Shelton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RangerEVs coming available
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EVLN(China Revives Market for Plug-in Electric Vehicles)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Transistor Votage Question
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Blue Meanie - California Poppy comparo
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: power steering and AC, was Re: DC DC Converter
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RangerEVs
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: [EV1-CLUB] RangerEVs coming available
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: RangerEVs
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: power steering and AC, was Re: DC DC Converter
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Transistor Votage Question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Dual Charging
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Dual Charging
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Transistor Votage Question
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Rabbit replacement
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Just some trivia...
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: power steering and AC, was Re: DC DC Converter
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: RangerEVs
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Blue Meanie - California Poppy comparo
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I couldn't find it online, but the dead tree version of either Harbor Freight's
or Northern Tool's catalog also has a "sport trailer." It looks similar to
those rounded aero cargo boxes which people stick on the roof of their
cars. If the capacity and the price are right, it might make a nice aero
alternative to the flat trailer.
When I get home this evening, I'll see if I can find it again.
I also found a couple of aero trailers designed for towing behind a
motorcycle. Up to 600 pounds capacity, but a bit pricey.
Tim
----
> > Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:27:26 -0500
> From: Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Range trailer
>
> > Give it a try and see.
>
> I just might do that. They have a 3*4 trailer in there for about $200 as
> well, I really don't want something too big.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
21 amps of current being regulated by light bulbs is a lot of light. You
may want to charge next to the local ball field and help illuminate the
game:-)
According to my lightbulb math, which may be flawed... If you are using 120V
light bulbs you will be using up 2500+ watts in lighting. That's 25 100
watt bulbs blazing away.
When I charge my 48V pack at 3.4 amps using light bulbs I light up my whole
garage quite nicely. Light bulbs are convenient and inexpensive, but they
definitely burn up energy.
damon
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Dual Charging
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:47:31 -0700
I've been struggling with how to charge both the Nicad and TS cells that
will be in my conversion. I could charge them separately, but that would
require either multiple chargers, or a single charger that I'd have to
adjust between Nicad and TS every time.
So what about charging both packs simultaneously? Here's a (possibly
wacky)
idea I've come up with. Please feel free to shoot holes in it, or make
suggestions on how to improve it.
1) PFC-30 charger is hooked to both packs in parallel
2) The connection between the PFC-30 and the Nicads is made by two
parallel
strings of light bulbs, one set for 13A and the other for 8A
3) The connection to the TS cells is direct
4) With the PFC-30 set for 30A, initially the Nicads get 21A and the TS
cell 9A
5) After some period of time, a timer turns off the 13A string of bulbs,
so
now the Nicads are getting 8A and the TS cells 22A
6) After another period of time, a timer turns off the 8A string, so
charging for the Nicads is completed, and the TS cells are getting the full
30A
7) The BMS modules on the TS cells take care of making sure that the TS
cells don't get overcharged -- maybe they can even talk to the PFC-30 in
some way. I'll have to ask Herr Rudman about it.
That's the idea, and if it works, maybe I can sell if for $50,000,000 on
Ebay :)
Let me know your feedback.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted...
> > Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:02:54 -0600
> From: Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: EVLN(China Revives Market for Plug-in Electric Vehicles)
>
> If China starts to have an electric vehicle boom, will we see big(as
> large or larger then whats out now), low cost, AC and DC motors be
> made available to us? Any big(high amp) controllers and inverters?
We can get pretty much anything made in China. There are exporters
in China and importers in the US that live for this stuff.
> Will Lithium ion starter batteries for gas cars ever be a reality?
Not unless some kind of environmental regulations make lead-acid
batteries economically unsound.
> Will there ever be "deep cycle" size/capacity lithium ion batteries?
There already are. Kokam LiPoly cells are a good start, and I think
Thunder-Sky could probably do it as well. (Kokam has the
advantage of an already established business--batteries for R/C
planes and cars, so they are already making money in the LiPoly
business.)
> Will the price of those batteries ever be the same or cheaper then
> lead batteries?
Possible. Lead is an environmental pollutant and very heavy to
ship, so I don't see the price coming down anytime. LiIon and
LiPoly, on the other hand, haven't benefitted from widespread
mass production yet, so the prices have nowhere else to go but
down.
> How come lead acid batteries are all still made in the US, and why
> isn't there competition from China in that market?
Weight. You're basically shipping a chunk of lead, so labor costs
are probably not as big a factor in making a lead-acid battery as
shipping costs.
Tim
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter,
I thought about that and would prefer a simpler system like that
but I'm just worried about times that I get stuck in traffic. Wouldn't
it overheat pretty quickly?
John
> I was thinking of efficiency with my hybrid pickup idea. Actually,
> this idea might work with just about any ICE or hybrid with enough
> room for the components. I saw a picture of the bottom of an exotic
> sports car and the underside was mosty just flat carbon-fiber panels.
> I was thinking that this might be possible to do with a normal car. I
> saw some 12v 436 cfm squirrel cage blowers on
>
>
A belly pan is a good idea, however a simpler, cheaper and probably more
efficient idea would be to dump the blowers and allow the air to enter the
engine compartment as it normally would (through the radiator at the
front) and release it into the airstream under the vehicle by using
louvers in the belly pan.
I think the Honda Insight does this, you might try looking under one.
Supposedly louvers are the best way to reintroduce waste air into the
airstream.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The RangerEV vigil did not only provide Rancher Dave and Solar Bill the
right to purchase their NiMH RangerEVs for $1. Bud and Ray now own
their RangerEVs, and Ford has stopped crushing the rest. It is still
unclear how many are in Ford's hands, but it is something between
dozens and a couple of hundred. They have established a point person
and procedure for distributing these vehicles.
If you still are leasing one, you can buy it for a dollar. Period.
If you once leased one, you go to the first priority for available
RangerEVs. If you know your VIN #, they can find your car, dead or
alive. If alive, you can get it back. If dead, you get a different one.
If you never leased one but want one now, they will be made available
once former leaseholders are taken care of. To be considered, you need
to be put on the list.
These RangerEVs, most if not all NiMH, will be sold for $1, but it will
actually cost the purchaser approx $1000 to $2000, as there are costs
involved in Ford preparing a car for sale as used. The cost will vary
with work needed and transportation.
The woman to call at Ford is Fran Pilotti. Her phone # is (313)
390-1917 and her email address is [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Questions?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How come lead acid batteries are all still made in the US, and why
isn't there competition from China in that market?
Shipping costs. We do this well. Could you imagine sending all the
recycled batteries to China and then shipping the finished product back
Shipping costs........LR...........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry for the confusion Peter. What I wrote was:
> Anyway, what I'm trying to accomplish is actually a little different
> than my original question.
So nothing to do with the collector resistor any longer. I want the
Collector/Emitter of the transistor to dissipate all the power. The
collector of the NPN Darlington is attached the battery + and the emitter to
battery -, just like Victor's clamper circuit. The resistor on the base in
this case is just to limit the base current to 50mA, which is all the
current that the opto can handle.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 9:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Transistor Votage Question
Hmm, I'm confused. You mention the base-emitter voltage drop, but
earlier said that the resistor was connected to the collector.
The base emitter voltage drop has essentially nothing to do with the
voltage drop from collector to emitter.
I believe (can't be sure from here) that the 3V figure you mention is the
correct figure for the collector to emitter voltage drop.
Also the current to the base of a transistor is typically very small.
And it doesn't sound like you are trying to bias the transistor correctly
if you are trying to run the shunt current from the resistor through the
base of the transistor. The Base of the transistor is basically the "ON"
switch for the transistor with the current flowing through collector to
emitter.
(Please folks, let's not bring up common base biasing, it's not really
relevent to this application)
A suggestion, why not use a MOSFET instead? Since you are only turning it
on, and not cycling it, it should be fairly simple to control and would
have a very low voltage drop (milivolts?) allowing most of the power to be
disapated across the resistor. In fact you might be able to controll it
directly from the opto
Of course then you'd need a high power resistor and probably some sort of
cooling, but it probably simpler than trying to keep the transistor cool.
Just to be specific, one side of the cell to the resistor, the other side
of the resistor to the source of the FET, and the drain of the FET to the
side of the cell. The Opto would then connect to the gate on the FET.
You can design it around either P or N FET's, whatever you can find cheap.
Possible problem, when initially turning on, the FET's gate acts like a
capacitor. So it can draw a large ammount of current for a brief period
before tapering off to next to nothing, this might cause problems with the
Opto. If so, just use a transistor to drive the gate (sort of like a
darlington arrangement).
> Thanks, Peter. I'm not sure how much an electronics class would help,
> other
> than maybe getting me some hands-on experience. The course descriptions
> seem to cover everything I already know. Instead of "Electronics for
> Dummies" I think I need a book entitled "Electronics for People Who have
> Already Read 14 Books on Electronics and Still Have Trouble with it" :).
>
> Anyway, what I'm trying to accomplish is actually a little different than
> my
> original question. I've been talking to Cedric Lynch about my making a
> modification the BMS modules that he sells for ThunderSky cells.
>
> His modules have a resistor in series with a transistor that is activated
> when the cell reaches 4.2V, and shunts about 250mA. When the cell voltage
> reaches 4.25V, the BMS also turns on an opto-isolator. My idea, which he
> thinks would work, would be to incorporate a second shunt transistor at
> that
> point, which would burn up the rest of the current and keep the cell from
> going over 4.25V.
>
> Let's say I attach a TIP142's collector and emitter across the + and -
> terminals of the cell, respectively. I attach one side of the opto to the
> +
> side of the cell, and the other to the base of the TIP142. Here's the
> caveat. The opto can handle a max of 50mA, so I need a resistor or
> something between the opto and the base of the TIP142 to limit current. I
> need to determine the size of the resistor.
>
> My problem is reading datasheets. Is there somewhere on the Internet
> where
> it's explained well? For example, all the electronic books that I've read
> say that there's a .7V drop between the base and emitter of a transistor.
> But the TIP142 is a Darlington. Logically (to me anyway), that would make
> a
> 1.4V drop across the B/E of the TIP142, since the current path goes across
> 2
> B/E junctions. That would mean my resistor should be (4.25 - 1.4)V / 50mA
> =
> 57 Ohms.
>
> However, in the TIP142's datasheet, I see no mention of 1.4V anywhere. I
> do
> see something that says V-be(on) = 3V. Does this mean that the TIP142
> really drops 3V, and I should use (4.25 - 3)V / 50mA = 25 Ohms instead?
>
> Well, sorry for the long post, but it's just these little details that
> aren't clear to me. Or maybe there's something more fundamental that I'm
> not grasping.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 10:58 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Transistor Votage Question
>
> Based on the question, I going to guess that the calculations are beyond
> your current skills.
>
> You need to know the value of the resistor, the complete specs for the
> transistor and the voltage and waveform applied to the transistors base.
>
> If you knew all of that, then you could run the calculations to *estimate*
> the voltage drops, or use a program to calculate it for you.
>
> Simplest way would be to measure it with a voltmeter or O'scope.
>
> If you really need to calculate it, then I'd suggest seeing if you local
> community college offers a basic electronics course. Well worth the
> money.
>
>> If a resistor is connected in series with the collector of a transistor
>> and
>> the two are connected across a voltage that may be different at
>> different
>> times, how do you calculate how much voltage will be dropped by the
>> resistor
>> and transistor respectively for different voltages? Thanks.
>>
>> Bill Dennis
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've driven both cars...California Poppy will smoke Blue Meanie, hands down!
However, Blue
Meanie's stereo sounds better, and can haul 4 scared people :-)
I've been driven in both cars. :-) Yes both are scary. LR.........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
jerry dycus wrote:
Why are you running either the power
steering or future AC from a DC/DC?
I'm only running power steering from the 12 volt system because the
compactness and simplicity of the MR2 power steering pump appealed to
me. Also, as using the MR2 pump was basically a bolt in solution (the
hoses even matched up), it meant that I could get my Jeep on the road
sooner rather than spending another month working with pulleys and
motors and such to make a homemade high voltage pump system.
As for the A/C, I've never planned to run that off the 12 volt system,
as I've already got enough junk running off of it, and I realize it'll
be easier to implement in the HV system. I am still looking for a motor
to drive the A/C, but haven't had much success finding 1-2 HP 160 volt
DC motors. I see plenty of 190 volt DC motors on Ebay, but I'm not sure
they'd be happy running in the 130-170 volt range? Likewise, I'm not
sure if 120 volt "Universal" or DC motors would be happy running in that
voltage range??
> Though on the AC one lister put it on the
> drive motor double shaft and used it for braking
While that sounds good (the braking part), I didn't leave enough room in
the engine (now motor) compartment around the motor tail shaft to really
do anything with it.
Hmmm, now I'm all motivated to go build an A/C system already :-)
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If you never leased one but want one now, they will be made available
> once former leaseholders are taken care of. To be considered, you
> need to be put on the list.
>
> Questions?
Yes. Where should we build a statue to Rancher Dave and Solar Bill?
I am so impressed with this that I contacted Ford not only to buy one,
but also to see about getting a hybrid Escape.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They received Certificates of Appreciation from the Electric Auto
Association. Best way to honor them is to join the EAA and continue
fighting for the electric cars made to meet the ZEV mandate. That
means Toyota most of all.
On Mar 18, 2005, at 8:54 AM, Christopher Zach wrote:
Questions?
Yes. Where should we build a statue to Rancher Dave and Solar Bill?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've never driven a hybrid escape. i do know it is very difficult to
get one. They've made very few. Dare I say, for the moment, it's more
PR than anything else. San Francisco Ford dealer told me it's very
difficult.
On Mar 18, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Christopher Zach wrote:
> If you never leased one but want one now, they will be made available
> once former leaseholders are taken care of. To be considered, you
> need to be put on the list.
>
> Questions?
Yes. Where should we build a statue to Rancher Dave and Solar Bill?
I am so impressed with this that I contacted Ford not only to buy one,
but also to see about getting a hybrid Escape.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Nick Viera wrote:
I see plenty of 190 volt DC motors on Ebay, but I'm not sure
they'd be happy running in the 130-170 volt range?
Oops, scratch that. Those were 90 volt DC motors that I saw when I was
looking at lower voltage motors...
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Darn it! I completely forgot about the Gate voltage requirements of power
MOSFET's.
Typically this is fairly high (12V?) however they do make some that switch
full on with 5V. The 4.25V you are talking about /might/ be sufficient to
turn it full on. You'd have to try and see or ask someone with more
experience working with 5V gated MOSFETs.
Also, something to consider. If you leave the battery in the circuit (and
the simplest solution will), you can't bypass 100% of the charge current.
Some will still flow through the battery. The only (easy) way to tell how
much is to try it and see.
If you can get the FET to turn on it's voltage drop will be essentially 0V
(will look like a short when *ON*), so you can figure out the resistor
value empirically by charging the cell until it's voltage nears 4.25V and
then connecting different values of resistors in parallel to see which
stops the voltage rise. Or (if the charge current isn't too high) with a
high power rheostat.
Another problem to consider. When you turn on the FET (or transistor) and
start bypassing current, the cell's voltage will drop (less current going
through it). If it drops far enough (and it probably will) you're Opto
circuit might turn off.
This would end up with the cell voltage cycling up and down
(4.25V-4.2V-4.25V-etc.) This doesn't hurt PbA batteries, but what effect
will it have on a fully charged LiIon? (I don't know)
If this is unacceptable, you will need to ensure the Opto circuit has
sufficient hysteresis to stay on even when the voltage drops.
If the FET idea doesn't pan out and you have to go with a power
transistor, it's important to figure out the power it will be dissapating
and select the transistor accordingly. IIRC 3V is a pretty standard
voltage drop accross the Collector Emmiter junction. Since the cell
voltage is 4.25V when the bypass turns on, the transisotr will be
dissapating almost 3/4 of the bypass power. Assuming you are shunting 10
amps around the cell (you didn't specify a charge current), then the total
power dissipated in the shunt series is 42.5 watts with 30 watts being
burned up in the transistor.
You will need to select a transisor that can handle this much power and
some kind of heatsink to get rid of it.
OBTW, again assuming that the bypass circuit is shunting 10 amps of your
charging current, you would need a 0.125 ohm resistor rated for at least
12.5 watts (call it 15W to be safe).
This is worse cass, you are probably charging at less than 10 amps which
means even less than that going through the bypass circuit.
One last item if you do go with the FET, the resistor needs to be rated to
handle the ENTIRE bypassed power. The FET will probably be dissipating
less than 1 watt (I can't remember any typical rdsON values right now).
Cheers.
> A suggestion, why not use a MOSFET instead? Since you are only turning it
> on, and not cycling it, it should be fairly simple to control and would
> have a very low voltage drop (milivolts?) allowing most of the power to be
> disapated across the resistor. In fact you might be able to controll it
> directly from the opto
>
> Of course then you'd need a high power resistor and probably some sort of
> cooling, but it probably simpler than trying to keep the transistor cool.
>
> Just to be specific, one side of the cell to the resistor, the other side
> of the resistor to the source of the FET, and the drain of the FET to the
> side of the cell. The Opto would then connect to the gate on the FET.
> You can design it around either P or N FET's, whatever you can find cheap.
> Possible problem, when initially turning on, the FET's gate acts like a
> capacitor. So it can draw a large ammount of current for a brief period
> before tapering off to next to nothing, this might cause problems with the
> Opto. If so, just use a transistor to drive the gate (sort of like a
> darlington arrangement).
>
>> Thanks, Peter. I'm not sure how much an electronics class would help,
>> other
>> than maybe getting me some hands-on experience. The course descriptions
>> seem to cover everything I already know. Instead of "Electronics for
>> Dummies" I think I need a book entitled "Electronics for People Who have
>> Already Read 14 Books on Electronics and Still Have Trouble with it" :).
>>
>> Anyway, what I'm trying to accomplish is actually a little different
>> than
>> my
>> original question. I've been talking to Cedric Lynch about my making a
>> modification the BMS modules that he sells for ThunderSky cells.
>>
>> His modules have a resistor in series with a transistor that is
>> activated
>> when the cell reaches 4.2V, and shunts about 250mA. When the cell
>> voltage
>> reaches 4.25V, the BMS also turns on an opto-isolator. My idea, which
>> he
>> thinks would work, would be to incorporate a second shunt transistor at
>> that
>> point, which would burn up the rest of the current and keep the cell
>> from
>> going over 4.25V.
>>
>> Let's say I attach a TIP142's collector and emitter across the + and -
>> terminals of the cell, respectively. I attach one side of the opto to
>> the
>> +
>> side of the cell, and the other to the base of the TIP142. Here's the
>> caveat. The opto can handle a max of 50mA, so I need a resistor or
>> something between the opto and the base of the TIP142 to limit current.
>> I
>> need to determine the size of the resistor.
>>
>> My problem is reading datasheets. Is there somewhere on the Internet
>> where
>> it's explained well? For example, all the electronic books that I've
>> read
>> say that there's a .7V drop between the base and emitter of a
>> transistor.
>> But the TIP142 is a Darlington. Logically (to me anyway), that would
>> make
>> a
>> 1.4V drop across the B/E of the TIP142, since the current path goes
>> across
>> 2
>> B/E junctions. That would mean my resistor should be (4.25 - 1.4)V /
>> 50mA
>> =
>> 57 Ohms.
>>
>> However, in the TIP142's datasheet, I see no mention of 1.4V anywhere.
>> I
>> do
>> see something that says V-be(on) = 3V. Does this mean that the TIP142
>> really drops 3V, and I should use (4.25 - 3)V / 50mA = 25 Ohms instead?
>>
>> Well, sorry for the long post, but it's just these little details that
>> aren't clear to me. Or maybe there's something more fundamental that
>> I'm
>> not grasping.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Bill Dennis
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 10:58 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: Transistor Votage Question
>>
>> Based on the question, I going to guess that the calculations are beyond
>> your current skills.
>>
>> You need to know the value of the resistor, the complete specs for the
>> transistor and the voltage and waveform applied to the transistors base.
>>
>> If you knew all of that, then you could run the calculations to
>> *estimate*
>> the voltage drops, or use a program to calculate it for you.
>>
>> Simplest way would be to measure it with a voltmeter or O'scope.
>>
>> If you really need to calculate it, then I'd suggest seeing if you local
>> community college offers a basic electronics course. Well worth the
>> money.
>>
>>> If a resistor is connected in series with the collector of a transistor
>>> and
>>> the two are connected across a voltage that may be different at
>>> different
>>> times, how do you calculate how much voltage will be dropped by the
>>> resistor
>>> and transistor respectively for different voltages? Thanks.
>>>
>>> Bill Dennis
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wasn't planning on 120V bulbs. For the 13A portion, for example, what
about 13 12V automotive bulbs in parallel at 1A each? That's 13A * 12V =
156W. For the 8A string: 8A * 13V = 104W, making 260W total. Not too much
energy. At 10 cents per kWh, this would take about 4 hours to cost me a
dime. Nicads would be charged by then.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of damon henry
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 9:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Dual Charging
21 amps of current being regulated by light bulbs is a lot of light. You
may want to charge next to the local ball field and help illuminate the
game:-)
According to my lightbulb math, which may be flawed... If you are using 120V
light bulbs you will be using up 2500+ watts in lighting. That's 25 100
watt bulbs blazing away.
When I charge my 48V pack at 3.4 amps using light bulbs I light up my whole
garage quite nicely. Light bulbs are convenient and inexpensive, but they
definitely burn up energy.
damon
>From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Dual Charging
>Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:47:31 -0700
>
>I've been struggling with how to charge both the Nicad and TS cells that
>will be in my conversion. I could charge them separately, but that would
>require either multiple chargers, or a single charger that I'd have to
>adjust between Nicad and TS every time.
>
>So what about charging both packs simultaneously? Here's a (possibly
>wacky)
>idea I've come up with. Please feel free to shoot holes in it, or make
>suggestions on how to improve it.
>
>1) PFC-30 charger is hooked to both packs in parallel
>2) The connection between the PFC-30 and the Nicads is made by two
>parallel
>strings of light bulbs, one set for 13A and the other for 8A
>3) The connection to the TS cells is direct
>4) With the PFC-30 set for 30A, initially the Nicads get 21A and the TS
>cell 9A
>5) After some period of time, a timer turns off the 13A string of bulbs,
>so
>now the Nicads are getting 8A and the TS cells 22A
>6) After another period of time, a timer turns off the 8A string, so
>charging for the Nicads is completed, and the TS cells are getting the full
>30A
>7) The BMS modules on the TS cells take care of making sure that the TS
>cells don't get overcharged -- maybe they can even talk to the PFC-30 in
>some way. I'll have to ask Herr Rudman about it.
>
>That's the idea, and if it works, maybe I can sell if for $50,000,000 on
>Ebay :)
>
>Let me know your feedback.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Bill Dennis
>
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: damon henry<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: Dual Charging
21 amps of current being regulated by light bulbs is a lot of light. You
may want to charge next to the local ball field and help illuminate the
game:-)
According to my lightbulb math, which may be flawed... If you are using 120V
light bulbs you will be using up 2500+ watts in lighting. That's 25 100
watt bulbs blazing away.
That exactly how many 100 watt large glass bulbs I have in my EV garage. In
the winter when its 30 below zero, it keeps the garage at 70 degrees!!! As the
temperature rises by 10 degrees, 5 light bulbs are turn off works in
conjunction with a ceiling fan.
I find that the energy usage is less than the 5kw heater that I have in the
garage.
Roland
When I charge my 48V pack at 3.4 amps using light bulbs I light up my whole
garage quite nicely. Light bulbs are convenient and inexpensive, but they
definitely burn up energy.
damon
>From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>Reply-To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>Subject: Dual Charging
>Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:47:31 -0700
>
>I've been struggling with how to charge both the Nicad and TS cells that
>will be in my conversion. I could charge them separately, but that would
>require either multiple chargers, or a single charger that I'd have to
>adjust between Nicad and TS every time.
>
>So what about charging both packs simultaneously? Here's a (possibly
>wacky)
>idea I've come up with. Please feel free to shoot holes in it, or make
>suggestions on how to improve it.
>
>1) PFC-30 charger is hooked to both packs in parallel
>2) The connection between the PFC-30 and the Nicads is made by two
>parallel
>strings of light bulbs, one set for 13A and the other for 8A
>3) The connection to the TS cells is direct
>4) With the PFC-30 set for 30A, initially the Nicads get 21A and the TS
>cell 9A
>5) After some period of time, a timer turns off the 13A string of bulbs,
>so
>now the Nicads are getting 8A and the TS cells 22A
>6) After another period of time, a timer turns off the 8A string, so
>charging for the Nicads is completed, and the TS cells are getting the full
>30A
>7) The BMS modules on the TS cells take care of making sure that the TS
>cells don't get overcharged -- maybe they can even talk to the PFC-30 in
>some way. I'll have to ask Herr Rudman about it.
>
>That's the idea, and if it works, maybe I can sell if for $50,000,000 on
>Ebay :)
>
>Let me know your feedback.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Bill Dennis
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>Another problem to consider. When you turn on the FET (or transistor) and
>start bypassing current, the cell's voltage will drop (less current going
>through it). If it drops far enough (and it probably will) you're Opto
>circuit might turn off.
That's actually the idea behind the clamper circuits. One cell reaches
4.25V earlier than the rest and is dropped back down to 4.2V. It then
charges back up to 4.25V, while at the same time the other cells get the
charging current, so they approach 4.25V. After enough on/off cycles, the
cells are equalized and full.
Bill Dennis
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--- Begin Message ---
If you want to do this, be sure you start with a non-running Insight. If
you get one that already works you may have a very difficult time convincing
yourself to turn it into an EV. These are great cars as is, and do what
they are built to do extremely well. I think all the time about converting
mine, but it uses hardly any gas on my 56 mile round trip commute everyday,
plus whenever I want to I can hop in it and take it anywhere in the country.
Just a couple of weeks ago I drove it up to Seattle for a week of training
then back. It cost me about 5 gallons of gas. Heck, I've had the 10.6
gallon tank take me all the way to the Bay Area from Portland without asking
for a refill. You can drive across the entire US and burn only 30 - 40
gallons of gas.
I know Otmar bought one of these, but I haven't heard of him converting his
yet. Also John Wayland, as much as he talks about what a great EV they
would make has yet to rip the gas sipping 3 cylinder out of his.
The only one I know of that has taken the EV plunge with an Insight is Gary
Granuke and we are all waiting for him to turn it into the Lithium powered
dream EV that he set out to build.
Personally I think Victor has the right idea. If you want an efficient 2
seater Honda as a glider for your EV, you're better off ripping the guts out
of a CRX. Leave the elegantly designed, ultra effecient Insight what it is.
damon
From: John Shelton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Rabbit replacement
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:42:35 +0900
With all the talk about copying the EV1, I thought I'd share my plans
for my EV. I think we already have a great replacement for the EV1,
the Honda Insight. My plans are to drive my little old 72v rabbit and
slowly upgrade all the components as I can afford to. I'll have a
functional EV that only gets better. This is going to be my learning
curve car that I can make mistakes with. I've seen a few 100,000+ mile
Insights on Ebay for about $5000 and they will only get cheaper. If
I'm lucky, I'll be able to find one with a blown engine or ruined
battery pack. The target price I'm hoping to get is $2-3000. Then I'll
put all the components in the insight and have a killer, lightweight
EV. It has great aerodynamics and if you cover the bottom and block
the front air vents and it gets even better. I think that would be a
great car to use as the new EV standard, the new Voltsrabbit
replacement. Whatta ya think Mike Brown?
John Shelton
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--- Begin Message ---
Car makers tend to quote the most optimistic numbers for a prototype,
but to be more conservative for a production car. For instance, many
production sportscars actually make significantly more horsepower
than spec.
The 183 mph car had a tail cone, modified electronics, and modified
tranny. Not really a fair comparison to the EV1. The EV1 did best the
Impact's 70 mph (governed) by about going 80 something (governed).
Acceleration was about the same (with rumors a freshly charged EV1
would do better than 8 seconds 0 to 60).
The bigger crime is how great the EV1 is/was, and how sluggy the EV+,
Rav4EV, Ranger EV, and TEV were.
--- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://econogics.com/ev/evhistg.htm
> EV-1
> Impact
> The Impact was the prototype predecessor to the EV-1, designed
> primarily by AeroVironment. Interestingly, the performance of the
> Impact seemed to diminish as it evolved into the EV-1. Consider the
> GM-published specifications for the Impact:
> Acceleration - 0-60 mph in 8 seconds
> Maximum speed (governed) - 70 mph; (modified for speed tests) - 183
> mph
> Range - 120 miles at 55 mph steady speed
> These figures were achieved using 32 Delco-Remy 10-volt sealed
> lead-acid batteries rated at 42.5 Ahr, weighing a total of 870
> pounds. 2 AC motors were used, one to each front wheel, each rated
> at 57-hp at 6,600 rpm, with voltage ratings of 320 volts. These
> figures were established and published in 1989. Compare those
> figures to the specifications of the EV-1 delivered 6 years later,
> still a 2-seater, highly aerodynamic car.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nick and All,
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> jerry dycus wrote:
> > Why are you running either the power
> > steering or future AC from a DC/DC?
>
> I'm only running power steering from the 12 volt
> system because the
> compactness and simplicity of the MR2 power steering
> pump appealed to
> me. Also, as using the MR2 pump was basically a bolt
> in solution (the
> hoses even matched up), it meant that I could get my
> Jeep on the road
> sooner rather than spending another month working
> with pulleys and
> motors and such to make a homemade high voltage pump
> system.
While a MR2 system is nice, it causes other
problems and is costly both in it's costs and higher
DC/DC costs.
You could sell it and put the stock PS unit back
on and cost less than a DC/DC and the cash you will
get selling the MR-2 unit and be more eff probably.
I thought you had said you wanted to keep thing
the same if possible.
No reason a PS needs belts, rather direct drive it
thru a coupler straight to a DC motor. Makes it more
compact, lighter and more eff.
These units will work on many different rpms but
I'd select a DC motor for one that turns about 1-2,000
RPM's to keep power levels needed low.
So you would need a DC motor that works in that
range at your pack voltage.
PM motor's rpm is directly related to it's
voltage in RPM's/volt. So you just need to get a motor
that's rpm/volt is in this range at your pack voltage.
Divide the motors rpm by it's voltage to get the rpm/v
if it's not already on it.
>
> As for the A/C, I've never planned to run that off
> the 12 volt system,
> as I've already got enough junk running off of it,
> and I realize it'll
> be easier to implement in the HV system. I am still
> looking for a motor
> to drive the A/C, but haven't had much success
> finding 1-2 HP 160 volt
> DC motors. I see plenty of 190 volt DC motors on
> Ebay, but I'm not sure
> they'd be happy running in the 130-170 volt range?
Voltages on most PM and other brushed motors are
suggestions rather than absolutes. They can easily go
up and down 50% or more though you need to keep the
cont duty amps about the same.
90vdc servo motors would be good for you or 180vdc
ones though adjust hp rating to the voltage ratio's.
You'd need a 3/4 hp 90vdc motor to make 1 hp at say a
120vdc pack voltage and cut an 180vdc motors hp rating
by 1/3 for the same reasons.
Check Surplus houses like Surpluscenter.com and
others.
> Likewise, I'm not
> sure if 120 volt "Universal" or DC motors would be
> happy running in that
> voltage range??
These are series motors and will just turn faster
or slower depending on voltage. RPM will be based on
load though and load will determine amps which you
need to keep about the same. Again 50% up or down is
no problem.
>
> > Though on the AC one lister put it on the
> > drive motor double shaft and used it for braking
>
> While that sounds good (the braking part), I didn't
> leave enough room in
> the engine (now motor) compartment around the motor
> tail shaft to really
> do anything with it.
>
> Hmmm, now I'm all motivated to go build an A/C
> system already :-)
As the summer comes on the motivation gets higher
;-)
For AC, keep the rpm's low like under 2500 down to
1,500 as you don't need as much AC without all that
heat comimg from an ICE motor!!! Again direct drive it
so to eff stays high without belt losses, costs.
A nice benefit is you can run it while still on
charge to precool it or run it while parked ;-))
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> Thanks,
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apparently there are three on the lot of Bob Bell in Baltimore.
Will see. I want a blue one though.
Chris
Marc Geller wrote:
I've never driven a hybrid escape. i do know it is very difficult to
get one. They've made very few. Dare I say, for the moment, it's more
PR than anything else. San Francisco Ford dealer told me it's very
difficult.
On Mar 18, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Christopher Zach wrote:
> If you never leased one but want one now, they will be made available
> once former leaseholders are taken care of. To be considered, you
> need to be put on the list.
>
> Questions?
Yes. Where should we build a statue to Rancher Dave and Solar Bill?
I am so impressed with this that I contacted Ford not only to buy one,
but also to see about getting a hybrid Escape.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
>There's a huge difference in a car that runs 0-60 in
>6 seconds, vs a car that
>runs 0-60 in
>5 seconds.
Fairly true. My dad owns an Audi TT that does 0-60 in about
6.2, and my Ford Contour with some minor
upgrades(performance chip, new ignition, ect.) was timed at
7.0. There is a huge difference in how strongly each car
pins you in your seat, although to be fair, the Audi is 4
wheel drive and the launch is strong enough to make you want
to puke.
>However, Blue Meanie's stereo sounds better, and can
>haul 4 scared people :-)
"Creature Comforts"? Bah. Useless dead weight!
FOUR people!? BLASPHEMY!
:-)
>Now...with 204V @ 1000
>amps and just 30-50 lbs. heavier than present when I
>go to the Z1K and 17
>Orbitals, at an
>estimated 175 hp and with a torque curve that
>stretches farther out the rpm
>range, Blue
>Meanie just might get past that pesky 914!
If you are estimating 175 horsepower from the 9'', my
calculations for the WarP 9'' are probably wrong to some
degree. My guess is in the motor constants, as the ADC 9''
constants on the EV calculator website are without the
necessary brush timing adjustments that the WarP 9'' will
have and what your ADC 9'' probably has.
175 horsepower would be REALLY nice. Consider the fact that
I am looking at perhaps having a 300V pack of Optimas in
this car. At bare minimum, 240V. With 300V of Optimas,
voltage sag is no issue at all.
175+ electric horsepower in this thing? Hot damn that would
be wicked fast for a street car...
What max voltage are you planning on putting your 9'' at(If
not the 204 battery pack volts)? I remember Rich saying
serious arcing results with more than 150 or so motor volts.
If you can push 204V into an ADC 9'', a WarP 9'' or XP-1227A
should be able to handle at least 192 motor volts(their
rating), if not more.
I'd really have some fun with such a car. Just need to keep
the torque down and try to focus on higher RPM horsepower,
or I will have a broken transmission. 200 or so lb-ft would
be ideal.
>Given that your hp is correct, with that weight, 0-60
>in the mid 6's sounds
>about right.
In the case you're pushing 135 horsepower with 1200 max amps
and 156 max volts, my horsepower would only be significantly
higher at say, 192 motor volts and 1000 amps on a WarP 9''
or an 8'' XP like what's in John Bryan's Ghia. 8'' would be
preferable due to higher redline, since the transmission of
the Triumphs had gearing more suited to 110 MPH max speeds,
instead of the 140-ish I'd like to have if at all
possible(Without having to change rear ends or
transmissions, as would require an extensive rebuild of the
car's suspension).
The constants I used from the ADC 9''(And for simulating the
near identical WarP 9'') must be innaccurate at
significantly higher voltages than their rated 120, or
adjusted brush timing makes the motor constants vary far too
much from what I used.
Whatever the case, I liked reading your comparison with
Poppy. Learn something new each day it seems.
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