EV Digest 4201
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Transistor Votage Question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Rabbit replacement
by John Shelton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AZ Republic Blurb
by John Shelton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Power brakes (was power steering and AC)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Renualt LeCar
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Fw: EarthLink Virus Blocker: Message from "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <[email protected]> Quarantined
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) 1498 Digest had virus.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Power brakes (was power steering and AC)
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: power brakes and vacuum
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Advice on electric scooter sought
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Tom Gage speaks in Cupertino
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: more hybrid ideas-smoothing the flow
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) March 19th Silicon Valley EAA meeting. Tom Gage Speaks.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Dual Charging
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Battery Desulfator.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: AZ Republic Blurb
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AZ Republic Blurb
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Power brakes (long)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AZ Republic Blurb
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Advice on electric scooter sought
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Power brakes (long)
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> Sorry for the confusion Peter. What I wrote was:
>
>> Anyway, what I'm trying to accomplish is actually a little different
>> than my original question.
>
> So nothing to do with the collector resistor any longer. I want the
> Collector/Emitter of the transistor to dissipate all the power. The
> collector of the NPN Darlington is attached the battery + and the emitter
> to
> battery -, just like Victor's clamper circuit. The resistor on the base
> in
> this case is just to limit the base current to 50mA, which is all the
> current that the opto can handle.
>
Ok, I'm following you now. I've never measured it, but I seriously doubt
that the drive current into the base will get as high as 50 mA.
Easy enough to test. Get a 5V power supply (a computer one will work) to
simulate your battery and wire up the transistor as you descibed.
In place of the Opto, use a multimeter set to measure amps, I.e. one lead
connected to + and the other to the transistor's base.
See how much current flows. If I'm wrong and it is more than 50mA then
just use a variable pot to figure out how much resistance you need to
limit the current.
I read all the books way back and decided that, for the kind of circuits I
usually design, calculating how a circuit would work was way to much
effort, even with Matlab, etc. so I just build it and see what happens and
adjust accordingly.
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
I never thought the Insight would be so incredibly difficult to
convert. In fact, I was just looking on Ebay at a couple and they have
digital dashes. Holy crap. I'm willing to bet hooking up something
like that would be a bit beyond my skills. I was excited about the
light weight and low drag numbers of the Honda. I also thought about
the "ethics" of converting a car that gets such high mileage. I mean,
it gets great mileage, but it's STILL one of those damn gas burners.
The Honda CRX is one of my favorite car designs of all time and I
would hope that if Honda hadn't discontinued it, it would have evolved
into something as sleek as the Insight. I do however also really like
the older Mazda MX3 hatchback. Before the Insight came along, that was
the style I lusted after when the CRX went away. The MX3s seem to go
for about half of what a comperable CRX would go for on Ebay so I
might be able to find one fairly quickly in my price range. It's got a
"normal" instrument cluster which would seem to be a fairly
straightforward hookup to a controler speed sensor. It has a backseat
which isn't important to me, I'd just use it as a commuter, but might
be important to someone else. And of course I would use a manual xmsn.
The aerodynamics seem to be pretty good. I was able to find one web
site that quoted a Cd of .31 but I don't know where they got there
info, and with the typical EV mods, blocking the radiator and
flattening the bottom, it should get better. Maybe even fabricate
skirts for the rear wheels. It would be a lot heavier than the insight
since it's made of steel but a steel body might be better able to
support lots of batteries without fatigueing. I have no idea what size
pack I would put in it since by the time I get one I will probably be
stationed in another part of the country and I have no idea what my
commute would be. No sense in putting more batteries in the car than
you need for the purpose. Save money on batteries and save weight.
Are you currently considering a successor to the Voltsrabbit.
She's been a tried and true workhorse but, especially up in the salty
North, they are getting harder to find good copies of. You mentioned
the Golf. Are you thinking about using those. I believe (hope) in the
near future that you are going to get a surge in business and I'm sure
a lot of people would prefer a drop in kit they can drop in a newer
style of car. Don't take that as a knock on your Voltsrabbits, I LOVE
mine, but for a lot of people, asthetics are just as important as
funtionality.
John Shelton
Re: Rabbit replacement
Date:
Fri, 18 Mar 2005 9:41:06 PM EST
From:
Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
[email protected]
At 08:42 PM 3/18/05 +0900, you wrote:
>With all the talk about copying the EV1, I thought I'd share my plans
>for my EV. I think we already have a great replacement for the EV1,
>the Honda Insight. My plans are to drive my little old 72v rabbit and
>slowly upgrade all the components as I can afford to. I'll have a
>functional EV that only gets better. This is going to be my learning
>curve car that I can make mistakes with. I've seen a few 100,000+ mile
>Insights on Ebay for about $5000 and they will only get cheaper. If
>I'm lucky, I'll be able to find one with a blown engine or ruined
>battery pack. The target price I'm hoping to get is $2-3000. Then I'll
>put all the components in the insight and have a killer, lightweight
>EV. It has great aerodynamics and if you cover the bottom and block
>the front air vents and it gets even better. I think that would be a
>great car to use as the new EV standard, the new Voltsrabbit
>replacement. Whatta ya think Mike Brown?
We have had several inquiries from Prius and Insight owners wanting to
convert them to pure electric. While it could be done, it would be more
complicated than the Voltsrabbit was to develop. The Rabbit, while
lightweight, was fairly roomy, due to its square shape. The Insight was
practically molded around its drive system. I haven't been close enough to
one to see what might be available for usable battery space.
The Rabbit also had a very simple wiring loom, so it was easy to separate
out the couple of wires I needed to re-use. When I tackled a Golf
conversion, I spent most of a day sorting out the forest of wires to see
what I could safely cut. Before touching a hybrid, I would want to study a
factory service manual wiring diagram. I don't know how easy or possible
it is to separate necessary electronics (like airbags or ABS) from
hybrid-specific electronics. Does the "brain" control functions that we
don't want to eliminate?
I would not use the CVT. It would be too much of a headache to try to
integrate it with a different drive/control system, and they aren't that
efficient anyway. If you compare the Hondas, the conventional transmission
version gets better mileage than the CVT version.
I would do it with a Solectria AC24 motor and their AT1200 gearbox as a
direct drive setup. This requires at least 144V, but can go as high as
336V. I would probably use 12V gel batteries. If someone wanted to put up
the scratch for it, it could be done with TS Li-Ions.
Then it would take someone with deep pockets and patience to finance the
prototype. The first one always costs a lot more, both in time and
fabrication, as you don't yet have welding jigs, etc. To design it, build
the prototype, debug the design, and document it for repeated production
and installation would take about two months - if I could shut down the
business and do nothing else but this project, which of course, I could not
do. So in real life, it would take longer.
Once it was debugged and productionized, it would be about a $15k
conversion (not counting donor car) if you used lead acid gel
batteries. With Li-Ions and their attendant management system, etc., it
would be more than twice that much.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You know, I have to agree with a lot of what John said. Hell, I can't
stand a lot of the chiluli hair shirt crowd and I consider myself an
environmentalist. A large portion of our country are conservatives and
for some reason they run screaming from anything that has to do with
conservation (ironic, I know). To them, it's un-American to feel the
need to compromise on a vehicle that gets 10 miles per gallon. "Why
Jesus told me it was ok to drive one, and wouldn't he with 12
apostles?" We will never convince them and I don't even try anymore.
Actually, I just giggle every time I hear about the price of oil going
up, serves em right. The only thing that will put more butts in the
seats of EVs is expensive gas. Americans don't worry about pollution
("Can't see any smoke coming out of my tailpipe so there must not be a
problem"), or the greenhouse effect ("Wha shucks, Ah red once back
that cows is fartin' too much and that's causin' ar problems with that
greenhouse hole over the south pole."), or the fact that we send
troops to the middle east to fight for secure energy sources (not many
people see anything wrong with putting a "I support the troops"
sticker on a Hummer bumper, I'M one of the troops and I DO). Nope, it
doesn't matter how many studies point to air pollution, caused at
least in part by cars, as causing an increased number of deaths from
lung ailments, it doesn't matter if nearly all of the science out
there points to human caused or accelerated greenhouse effect, it
doesn't matter that "distributed" oil pollution (I can't think of a
better term for gas spills, oil leaks, illegal oil dumping, etc.)
contaminates our water supplies not to mention the times when a
Valdez-like disaster hits, the ONLY thing that matters to most of us
naval-gazing, American-Idol-watching, Oprah-worshipping,
Big-Mac-make-that-supersize-swilling Americans is how much will the
gas cost that I put in my 6000lb vehicle that I use to transport the
kids to soccer practice, and it had better be cheap or I'm complaining
to my congressman. Nope, the only thing that will convince Americans
to get in EVs is if THEY are inconvenience by high gas prices. That's
why I smile when I hear about gas prices rising. The birds are coming
home to roost, or whatever the saying is. The good news for us is as
more EV parts are made and sold, they will become cheaper with better
economies of scale.
Rant finished,
John
Re: AZ Republic Blurb
Date:
Sat, 19 Mar 2005 6:00:30 AM EST
From:
Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
[email protected]
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:20:49 -0800, Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Chip hit the nail right on the head.
>We are being mocked in Arizona. First by the police detaining Chelsea.
>Now this little dig at the event.
You're being mocked all over the country. It's really a pretty sad
joke to the rest of us.
Example: the only coverage in this area was in the Page 2 section of
the paper that I call "Stars Behaving Badly". You know, where they
report on who is screwing whom in Hollywood and what rap star was
arrested for what crime in the last 24 hours.
The blurb was about a BoobWatch, er, BayWatch "all silicone all the
time" star being arrested for blocking a truck at a GM facility during
a "save the EV1" demonstration. (average reader: WTF is an EV1?)
Having tossed the TV several years ago I didn't know who Chelsea was
until I saw that article. Now I do. Only because I am involved with
EVs did I know what kind of fruitcake cause the demonstration was
about.
What I continue to wonder about is this. If there is this huge demand
out there for production EVs then why isn't someone building them?
No, not the Big Guys. Tuner shops like Rousch and Saleen and
Lingenfelter who take production vehicles and turn them into hotrods.
Why aren't there shops that have selected a model to specialize in
(like the Saleen Mustang), designed and built an OEM-quality EV
drivetrain and put 'em on the market? There are plenty of rich folks
out there who want to look green who would fund such a startup if
there was a business case to be made. If you offer the appropriate
product then the Big Guys will sell your product. Just like you can
buy a Saleen Mustang from a Ford dealer.
That's the key, I think. There IS NO DEMAND, at least none that
matters commercially. A few hundred True Believers do not a market
make. When someone makes the case for there being a market using
generally accepted methods for the industry (NOT internet petitions or
email bombings or phone trees or....) then the money will be
forthcoming.
I don't see this as being a whole lot different than my BBQ
restaurant. I love BBQ, could eat it 3 meals a day and don't quite
understand why everyone else doesn't. Yet my sober side believes the
National Restaurant Association statistics that say that only about 2%
of the meal parts go to BBQ joints. I could believe with all my heart
in my product and the demand I think should be out there but if I
planned my business accordingly I'd go bust.
If pure EVs ever have a chance (and I don't think they do) then the
advocates are going to have to stop acting like nutcakes and start
selling the product on it real merits. No gas stations, no gas fumes,
no engine, cheaper operation. The environmental claims either trigger
a yawn or the person's lie detector, depending on how much he
understands how electricity is generated and distributed. In the real
world and not some fanciful never-never land.
Brands and segments tend to develop stereotype public images. I got
rid of my gorgeous 635CSi simply because I got tired of being
classified with all the yuppie assholes who now drive BMWs. Or think
what pops to mind when you hear "SUV". Does the same thing happen
when you hear "Pickup Truck"? Essentially the same vehicles.
Buick and Pontiac lost the fight to change their images as brands for
geezers. Similarly, the image of an EV driver is that of a fruity left
coast granola eating tree hugging nutcake. I don't know how many
times I've gotten a variation of the theme "I KNOW you're not an
enviro-whacko so why the EV?"
Answer: because it's fun, it's cheap to operate, I don't have to deal
with the high school dropouts at the gas stations, I refuel at home
and it fits my around town transportation needs better than my regular
cars. THESE are the selling points that will win people over. No
enviro-bleating necessary.
That is going to be a very difficult image to overcome. Silly stuff
like this sit-in only make things worse. I suspect that one of the
main reasons hybrids are doing so well right now is precisely because
they had no public image attached going in.
Something for you True Believers to think about as you munch on your
granola bars....
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was just a mounting problem. The stock master cylinder's bolt pattern
attached fine to the booster, but not to the firewall. The bolt pattern on
the Honda cylinder was a perfect match. But then the Honda cylinder had
only one line coming out of its front chamber, whereas the Metro's original
one had had two. So I used a splitter from a Toyota to split it into two.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 11:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Power brakes (was power steering and AC)
Bill Dennis wrote:
> I just switched the brakes on my Geo Metro conversion to manual (involved
a
> Honda master cylinder, a Toyota brake line splitter and fabricating a new
> push rod).
How come you couldn't use the stock master cylinder? Is the stock
pedal ratio "good enough"?
What about using an adjustable proportioning valve so you can dial in
the front and rear brake pressure? That's what I'm planning on using.
http://www.jegs.com/photos/9502608419.jpg
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1178&prmenbr=3
61
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also, does anybody have any tips on driving an EV for maximum range?
LOTS of them! Driving an EV is quite different. Your battery amp gauge
is your friend. It gives you instant feedback on how much current (and
thus power, since battery voltage is fixed) you are using.
another , is don't keep accelerating , if you want to go 45 mph then
accelerate up to say 46 then take you foot off the go pebble just a little .
When I let other people drive I am something surprised at how much juice
they use , as they drift for 40 to 45 over a lone period .
Basically, accellerate slowly to keep the peak current down. Drive
slower, and coast whenever possible. Use your brakes as little as
possible (since you don't have regen). Avoid steep hills. Time yourself
to avoid red lights.
One of the things I enjoy about driving an EV is that I can really see how
my good driving uses less ah. It you have a rout you take everyday , you
will see how much you can save by changing your driving .
steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems something from the list had a virus. LR>.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "EarthLink Customer Support Team" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 4:35 PM
Subject: EarthLink Virus Blocker: Message from "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <[email protected]> Quarantined
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To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: EV digest 4198
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:28:57 PST
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--- Begin Message ---
Digest 1498 had a virus. Any news on this. LR.........
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:12:57 -0600, Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > It just occurred to me. You only need power brakes when you are braking
>
> I feel the term "power brakes" is misleading. If my understanding is
> correct(please correct me if it's not), the brake booster doesn't make
> the brake system more powerful, it only makes the brakes easier to
> apply.
The problem with vacuum assisted brakes is that when the vacuum isn't
present, the system doesn't just revert to being the same as manual
brakes, you can end up having to press surprisingly hard on the pedal
to have any effect at all. I think that's because they're designed
with less "mechanical" advantage because they assume there will always
be assist.
A friend of mine decided to adopt my technique of coasting down a
hill near where I work with the engine switched off. He told me that
he'd negotiated the slight chicane halfway down without any problem,
but then when he came to the hairpin bend at the bottom, his brakes
had "failed" and didn't slow the car any more - he ended up hauling on
the parking brake! Of course there was nothing wrong, he'd just not
been expecting the large difference in pressure required.
If you ran the vacuum pump off the traction motor (I know that
people on the list have done this, Bob from CT?), you might find that
you run out of assist while parking on a hill or something like that.
OK if you're expecting it but not exactly user friendly :)
FWIW, I think you'd manage without a magnetic clutch - the diaghram
vacuum pump on my old diesel car required very little force to turn it
once it had come up to the maximum vacuum.
Personally, I prefer manual brakes too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Nick wrote:
Or maybe brake boosters don't bleed any vacuum off as long as you keep
the pedal depressed and I'm being dumb thinking they do?
If I come to a slow stop at a light, and keep the pedal down, the pump
doesn't come on usually while holding down the pump. It almost always
comes on just as I let off of the brakes.
My vacuum pump is also the noisiest part of the EV. Sometimes I start
thinking about how I can get rid of it - but usually come to the
conclusion others have mentioned before - it's probably good to have a
little noise. The other day there was a jogger on the side of the
road. Just as I passed, he crossed the road. If he hadn't heard me,
and crossed without looking, I'd have had a splattered jogger on my
hood. Most people look, but some put blind trust in their ears.
Even so, it would be cool if it was as quiet as it is without the vacuum
pump all the time.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you increase the speed of these scooters you will over heat them. They
are a moped class vehicle. I'd build a El Chopper or El Chopper ET if you
want speed. Although the El Chopper has very thin tires. LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: Advice on electric scooter sought
Mark Dodrill wrote:
I'm looking for an electric scooter that meets the following
requirments:
* Max speed required is 40 mph for about 1 mile
* Other times speed is between 25 and 35 mph
For some reason, all the little scooters, 4 wheelers, and go carts
that are sold around here(Oklahoma), appear to be limited to 28mph.
Is there some sort of law that requires this? What method is used to
limit these vehicles to this exact speed?
http://www.pepboys.com/transportation/street_legal_scooters/electric.html
Could these be modified to get more speed out of them? What currently
limits them? Electronically governed by their controller?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
March 19th. When and where? Please confirm & email me personally. I think
it is at the HP campus in Cupertino. Just making sure.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two things:
1) Obviously you'll still want something like a standard radiator cooling
fan, especially for high-power, low-speed operations (hill climbing,
towing, etc)
2) For when you're stuck in traffic, turn the ICE OFF and use the E-motor.
> Peter,
> I thought about that and would prefer a simpler system like that
> but I'm just worried about times that I get stuck in traffic. Wouldn't
> it overheat pretty quickly?
>
> John
>
>
>> I was thinking of efficiency with my hybrid pickup idea. Actually,
>> this idea might work with just about any ICE or hybrid with enough
>> room for the components. I saw a picture of the bottom of an exotic
>> sports car and the underside was mosty just flat carbon-fiber panels.
>> I was thinking that this might be possible to do with a normal car. I
>> saw some 12v 436 cfm squirrel cage blowers on
>>
>>
>
> A belly pan is a good idea, however a simpler, cheaper and probably more
> efficient idea would be to dump the blowers and allow the air to enter the
> engine compartment as it normally would (through the radiator at the
> front) and release it into the airstream under the vehicle by using
> louvers in the belly pan.
> I think the Honda Insight does this, you might try looking under one.
>
> Supposedly louvers are the best way to reintroduce waste air into the
> airstream.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is the info I have. I hope it is correct. Lawrence Rhodes...
Our guest speaker for the March 19th Silicon Valley EAA meeting
will be Tom Gage, president of AC Propulsion. (
www.acpropulsion.com ).
Tom will give us an update on what AC Propulsion has been up to
since he last addressed us in October of 2003. For those that
missed it, the slides from that presentation are on the AC
Propulsion website. He will also give us his view of the EV market
in general now that the CARB ZEV mandate has imploded.
Please note that the location of the meeting has been changed for
this month only.
We will be meeting on Saturday at 10 AM at the following location:
Hewlett-Packard in Cupertino
19091 Pruneridge Ave., Cupertino, CA
Building 48S, Oak Room Auditorium
From San Jose and points South:
Take FWY 280 North and exit Wolfe Road. Turn right onto Wolfe
road. At the first signal turn right onto Pruneridge Avenue. At the
first signal turn left into HP. Make a quick left and follow signs
to building 48
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Man, great post, Roger. I think I'll use your method. One thing, though.
I think I'll still need to protect against the Nicads getting more than 12V
above the TS cells. So I'm thinking that maybe it's best to put an
additional voltage drop on the 9A TS path. Then I'd be burning the extra
watts only for the duration of the Nicad Charge, and only at 9A. Worst case
voltage difference would be TS at low (105V) and Nicads fully charged
(149V). So 44V.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 4:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Dual Charging
Bill Dennis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I wasn't planning on 120V bulbs. For the 13A portion, for
> example, what about 13 12V automotive bulbs in parallel at 1A
> each? That's 13A * 12V = 156W. For the 8A string: 8A * 13V
> = 104W, making 260W total.
The problem will be the difference between the starting and ending
voltages of the two packs.
Your string of 35 TS cells could be 126V (3.6V/cell) at rest fully
discharged, and 149V (4.25V/cell) fully charged; this is a swing of 23V.
The 96-cell NiCd string could be 96V (1.0V/cell) fully discharged and
149V (1.55V/cell) at end of charge; this is a swing of 53V.
You would set the PFC30 for 149V, and assuming it runs current limited
to start, its output voltage will be that of the battery which it is
directly connected to. If the NiCd and LiIon strings start out at
voltages that differ by more than about 14V, your 12V current-limiting
bulbs will blow.
If you are draining the packs in parallel, so that they will start at
the same voltage, then your max swing is just the 23V of the TS pack.
Worst case is that the directly connected pack charges up more quickly
than the light-bulb connected one so that the voltage across the bulbs
exceeds their safe rating and they blow.
Either your control strategy needs to monitor the voltage drop across
the bulbs and switch bulbs in/out to adjust the charge rate so that the
packs come up together and the voltage across the bulbs never exeeds
their rated voltage, or you need to use bulbs that are rated for at
least the 23V worst case difference.
If you can ensure that the voltage difference between the packs can be
held to no more than about 13V, then a possibility is 8 1157 dual
filament tail light bulbs. The bright filament draws about 2.1A and the
dimmer filament about 0.59A, so with all filaments lit you have about
21A. Turn off all the dim filaments and 4 of the bright ones to reduce
the current limit to 8A. Use the long life (LL) version to avoid having
to change bulbs too frequently.
An alternative scheme would be to connect the NiCds directly to the
charger at the start, and use bulbs to limit the current to the TS cells
to about 9A. This makes sense for two reasons, one is that the NiCds
could be at a much lower starting voltage, and this scheme would limit
the voltage that needs to be handled by the bulbs. It also reduces the
energy you waste in the bulbs since you are now dissipating 8A @ xV
instead of 21A. Worst case is that the NiCds initially get the full 30A
charge current until they come up sufficiently in voltage that the TS
string starts to draw current, but this is not a problem for them.
Once you detect that the NiCd string is at the desired voltage, switch a
string of bulbs between it and the charger to limit current to ~8A, and
bypass the bulbs in series with the TS string so it gets the full
balance of the PFCxx output.
A possibility here is to use a pair of 9007 or H13 halogen dual beam
headlights, which are rated 55W (4.3A) on low beam and 65W (5.1A) on
high beam. Connect them so that the paralleled low beams are in series
with the NiCd pack and the paralleled high beams are in series with the
TS pack. Use a SPDT relay with its common connected to the charger
output, its NC contact to the NiCd side of the low beams, and its NO
contact to the TS side of the high beam filaments.
Starting with the relay off, the NiCd string is connected directly to
the charger and the TS string is connected via the pair of high beam
filaments. The TS string charges at a maximum of about 10A and the
NiCds get at least 20A. When the NiCds reach the desired voltage
threshold, energise the relay and the NiCd pack becomes connected to the
charger via the pair of low beam filaments and charges at about 8A max.
As soon as the NO contacts close, the TS string becomes directly
connected to the charger and charges at 22A minimum.
Since the relay voltage across the relay will "never" exceed the voltage
of the bulbs (~13V), you can use a relatively inexpensive 12V SPDT
automotive relay rated for at least 30A.
Cheers,
Roger.
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Does technology like this work. If so will it work for deep cycle batteries
or sealed batteries. Seems just a very high amp charge does more to help.
Which technique works the best?
http://www.batterylifesaver.com/index.html Just saw this in Popular
Mechanics.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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--- Begin Message ---
John Shelton wrote:
You know, I have to agree with a lot of what John said.
<SNIP>
Yes, I have to agree as well. Every year I have done display after display
for Earth Day, Science Nights and so forth. Supposedly I am talking to the
right crowd. I get a lot of "thats neat" type comments, talk to a zillion
people, but get no real interest. Nobody I ever give one of our brochures
to ever comes to a chapter meeting. Then local gas prices edge up to $2 a
gallon and suddenly I am getting stopped in parking lots or questioned from
the next car at stoplights. It is all about the dollars. It kind of
suggests the whole approach on selling the concept of EVs to the public has
been "bass ackwards" from day one. When did we see the auto makers start
looking at EVs without government mandates? When they saw gas prices
rocket up in the 70s. Why? Because they didn't want to loose their
market. Could GM have actually produced the Chevette Electric? Might have
happened, if gas prices had continued to rise. If you read some of the
customer stories of the Citicars at the time, many were willing to put up
with that limited vehicle because they feared more gas lines or higher gas
prices. If you believe in EVs for cleaner air, that is nice, but "sell"
them for the reduced operational costs and you may get more takers.
The recent events with the Ranger EVs and now the EV1s don't resonate with
most of the public. "Whackos" is probably the general opinion. Oddly
though, when the suggestion that public moneys had been wasted, interest
did perk a bit, but wasting taxpayer dollars is a long tradition and that
won't hold interest for long.
Americans bought 16.86 million new cars and trucks in 2004. (
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48734-2005Jan4.html ) To be
a real alternative, what percent of that would have to be EVs? Even only 1
% would be 168,600 cars. I don't think that many EVs have ever existed in
the US or even in the world.
I think there is probably a market for EVs out there, but since it is such
an uphill battle just to get it out in the public eye, it is going to take
real a real economic advantage for EVs to get them in production. It is
going to take much lower operating cost, decent performance and rock solid
reliability, along with dealer support. We are nowhere near there
now. Maybe in another 10 years......
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
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chiluli? I looked it up and got an abstract of S. Chiluli's thesis.
This thesis is concerned with the design and implementation of a
Relational Multimedia Database System, in short RMDBS. RMDBS is
designed to efficiently use storage space and manipulate various
kinds of data; attribute data, bit-mapped pictures, and programs
in binary code.
Hmmm...
/Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
A-ha , something I can comment on
The vacuum brake booster is an interstingly simple device. As you sit
on that hill without moving your foot it's assitance goes down, but as
sonn as you command more by pressing on it it gives you more assistance.
It consists of 2 chambers seperated by a diaphram, engine vacuum goes
to both sides of this diaphram so there is no net assistance.
When you step on the brake the rod moves forward and a washer covers
some holes (there is more than one design) blocking the vacuum to the
back side while a second washer opens the back side to atmosphere.
Atmospheric pressure (14psi) pushes on the diaphram and gives your foot
some help. It can't get ahead of you because when it catches up to the
pedal, the air valve closes and the vacuum valve opens.
I often wondered if I could flip one around and use 28psi of air
pressure and an aircompressor and tank on board. Then I would have the
same amount of force and air for my tires.
looks like I would need 50psi and a regulator for the booster. The 4x4
magazines have air compressors for mounting on fan belts and I just used
an AC compressor (old crankcase style,york) and a tank, the pressure
switch went to the clutch. That york could probably make vacuum quick
enough for your application, People use them to pump done AC and for
vacuum bagging.
As I get more into EV's, I have come up with an analogous system for
brakes I'd like to try.
First off,the shape of a solenoid core determines the shape of the
pull profile. A flat end slug has max force in last bit of stroke and it
drops off fast as distance increases, kinda looks like a series motor
torque chart. A cone on the end lowers the max but spreads it out a
little and a stepped cone does it even more.
So we take a stepped cone plunger that is about 2-3 inches in diameter
and has an inch of travel and extend the under dash end a little to
acommodate an aluminum slug riding in a insulated bore. The slug moves
only .050 to .100 inch and has a forward and back switch, these go to a
flashable PIC micro that has PWM out.
we program it with the weight and the pack voltage to taylor it to the
vehicle (actually we re-compile the program with the constants in line)
ok here we go
Front switch Rear switch Error lite
DUTY Cycle watchdog
0 0 0
no change decrement
0 0
1 0 watchdog hits zero
0 1
0 decrement set to max
1 0
0 increment set to max
1 1
1 0 0
In order for this to work the solenoid must be multi-layer with the
layers wired in parallel. thus requireing PWM drive and allowing
differnet pack voltages?
Lotsa book work and back of the napkin design went into this but I
really need someone like Lee to poke holes in it, maybe I could sell the
idea to the hybrid manufactureers!
--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.2 - Release Date: 3/11/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I wouldn't be surprised if the AZ Republic is run by
> some neo-con Rush
> Slimeball type media conglomerate.
It was owned by Dan Quale's family last time I checked.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
This is about how much it cost me to build my motorcycle. I got a good deal
on the motor and scrounged free batteries, so you might have to spend a bit
more. It's definitely doable if you want to do it yourself, but it will
take some time and patience.
My motorcycle can easily match these range and speed requirements, I only
wish I had your commute instead of mine... 26 miles all freeway with nasty
hills. I did manage to make it on my motorcycle once, but then my SAFT STM
modules started dieing off. I don't see it happening again unless I spring
for some very expensive LiPo batteries.
You might want to consider an electric bike as well. For only a couple
hundred, you can ride to work at 20 miles an hour and get some exercise
along the way.
Here's my motorcycle in the EV album.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/497.html
damon
From: Mark Dodrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: EV List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Advice on electric scooter sought
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:57:41 -0800
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:52:34 -0800, Mark Dodrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hello all. It's been so unseasonable warm and sunny here in Seattle
this
> year, I've been thinking using an electric scooter to get to and from
> work, instead of my car. A full electric car just isn't in the cards
> for me now, but I did get a tax refund that might work.
>
> I'm looking for an electric scooter that meets the following
> requirments:
>
> * It's a 11 mile (~18 km) commute one-way, so I'm sure I would
> need to charge at work.
> * Total elevation change is about 200 feet from start to finish,
> with about a 250 max elevation gain in the middle.
> * Max speed required is 40 mph for about 1 mile
> * Other times speed is between 25 and 35 mph
> * Some rolling hills but I can avoid any steep up/downgrades
> * Full enclosure not required since I plan to ride only when
> it is relatively nice
> * Either homegrown or production would work
> * Efficiency is more important than looks
> * Needs to haul 200 lbs of people and stuff
> * Don't care about battery weight, size, or chemistry, as long as it
works
> * Needs to have a seat
> * Probably need at least a 750 watt motor
> * Probably a 36 or 48 volt system
> * Price of around $1500 US
> * Ability to pull out the battery pack for charging is a plus
> (even if it is 70+ lbs)
>
> Does anyone have a suggestion on what I could use here to meet these
> requirements, or modify something existing to meet them?
> Ebay has a couple of interesting items: 7140833081,7141765328.
>
> Also, if anyone knows of licensing/insurance issues related to scooters,
> I'd appreciate that as well.
>
> All feedback/thoughts appreciated.
I appreciate those who responded both on and off list to my question.
Unfortunately, none of the suggestions met all my criteria--the
closest one was the ElChopper kit, but its max speed wasn't high
enough (could this be overcome? I don't know).
How about another approach. Does anyone know of a scooter or
motorcycle type frame that I could purchase, and then add the motor,
batteries, controller, seat, etc, to? Am I being unrealistic about
getting what I want for the price range I want? I can handle the
truth. :)
Thanks again for the help.
Mark
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff and All,
Don't most PB systems have a heavy duty
spring in them against to brake pedal, probably to
return the brakes reliably off until need, and
removing it greatly decreases the leg power needed,
enough in many cases where you no longer need a vac
booster?
Didn't people remove this spring and the
Vac booster and have a decent brake system?
Thanks,
jerry dycus
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A-ha , something I can comment on
>
> The vacuum brake booster is an interstingly simple
> device. As you sit
> on that hill without moving your foot it's assitance
> goes down, but as
> sonn as you command more by pressing on it it gives
> you more assistance.
>
> It consists of 2 chambers seperated by a diaphram,
> engine vacuum goes
> to both sides of this diaphram so there is no net
> assistance.
> When you step on the brake the rod moves forward
> and a washer covers
> some holes (there is more than one design) blocking
> the vacuum to the
> back side while a second washer opens the back side
> to atmosphere.
> Atmospheric pressure (14psi) pushes on the diaphram
> and gives your foot
> some help. It can't get ahead of you because when it
> catches up to the
> pedal, the air valve closes and the vacuum valve
> opens.
>
> I often wondered if I could flip one around and use
> 28psi of air
> pressure and an aircompressor and tank on board.
> Then I would have the
> same amount of force and air for my tires.
> looks like I would need 50psi and a regulator for
> the booster. The 4x4
> magazines have air compressors for mounting on fan
> belts and I just used
> an AC compressor (old crankcase style,york) and a
> tank, the pressure
> switch went to the clutch. That york could probably
> make vacuum quick
> enough for your application, People use them to
> pump done AC and for
> vacuum bagging.
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
