EV Digest 4207
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Series motor runaway
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Stirling Engine
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Where is all the power going?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Great EV show on digital Insight
by "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit
replacement
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Doing something, A CT guyz Blurb
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) (more info RE): tranny experts, pls.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Letter to oregonian RE: gas prices & EVs
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: tranny experts, pls.
by "Ed Koffeman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: conspiracy theory touts (Reply to Peter)
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: (more info RE): tranny experts, pls.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Stirling Engine
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) French regulations
by pekka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Stirling Engine
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Stirling Engine
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi guys, looking for more info, my Zamboni has a shunt motor now and draws
> about 100 amps when not moving or operating the augars, it is driving a
> gear box that runs the hydrastatic trans and hydraulic pumps (note that
> both are turning all the time but are in bypass mode) I am thinking that
> perhaps there is enough load present under these conditions that I could
> run a common series wound motor and it would not "run wild", is there any
> rule of thumb that could assist me in what would load would be enough for
> a motor at different speeds and voltages? I would like to run a series
> motor with contactor only at 72 volts and maintain a rpm of around 2400 to
> 3000, it would not have to be a constant rpm but as little change as
> possible, I have no idea how much a load will effect the rpm.
>
I can't give you any rule of thumb on minimum load, except that I don't
believe there is one. If you can determine the load, then you could use
the motor's torque charts to figure the RPM. If the load is two small to
corespond to a point on the torque curve, then it's probably not enough to
keep it below a safe RPM.
I can tell you that a series wound motor connected directly to a fixed
voltage source is NOT a constant RPM motor. With series wound motors, and
a fixed voltage source, RPM is inversly proportional to load. Increase
the load and the RPM drops.
Here is a motor chart for an ADC K91
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt2113/mt2113voltagecurve.PDF
One of the curves shows a FIXED 75vdc, looks like at 3,000 RPM it produces
22-23 ft-lbs of torque, when the torque increases to about 38 ft-lbs it
drops to 2,400 rpm.
Also, unless you're battery pack is really stiff, it will sag under the
higher loads which will cause the voltage to drop, which will cause the
RPM to drop even further than indicated.
So as long as your torque stays betwenn 23 and about 36 ft-lbs (allowing
for sag) then (this motor) will stay between 3,000 and 2,400 rpm. If the
torques goes outside of that range, then so does the motor RPM.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'm thinking about making model Stirling engine that will generate
> a moderate amount of power.
>
> Do you have any ideas or starting points?
>
> The idea is to see if we can make something that is good enough to
> charge an EV for cheaper then PV panels. I think I may already know
> the answer to this, but perhaps not :)
>
I had a similar thought a few years back, so I did some research. I came
to the conclusion that building a sterling engine large enough to be able
to do any useful work was neither simple nor cheap. At that doesn't even
count the solar concentrator.
In order to be efficient sterlings need to be fairly airtight. This means
a pretty close tolerance between piston and sleeve. But you also want a
low friction contact AND the materials must have a similar temperature
coefficient so that the expand at the same rate when they heat up.
None of the designs I saw looked particularly durable.
I recently came across a different type of heat engine that is similar to
a sterling, but doesn't need to be air tight. In fact it is designed to
vent to the atmosphere at both ends of the piston stroke. When the hot
air expands and moves the piston all the way to one end, it opens a vent
and lets some of the expanding gas out. This way when it cools there is
less gas volume and it contracts even more. When it gets all the way to
the other end it vents again and lets some air in and starts over.
The design I saw included a water cooling coil behind the displacer to
help cool the air.
It only has one moving part (the piston) and doesn't even require a
flywheel. You could build a linear alternator connected to the
reciprocating piston.
This design appears to me to be simpler and possibly more efficient than a
sterling engine.
P.S.
I used to work at a facility that had a large solar generator (10kw) that
used either a sterling or something similar. It was easy to tell when it
was working because it was fairly loud, most of the time however it wasn't
working.
FWIW IIRC it used helium as a working fluid and of course this leaked out
so they had two or three large tanks connected to it at all times to keep
it topped up.
It used a large parabolic reflector, umm maybe 15 ft across. Originally
this was an array of smaller parabolic reflectors. These smaller
reflectors were basically a round hoop with mylar stretched over the front
and back sides. Then they drew a vacumm inside the hoop and it sucked the
mylar down into a parabole. Unfortunately these also leaked and
eventually they found a source for glass mirrors that could be bent into
shape. They used something like twenty mirror segments around the dish.
I worked at that facility for four years. DUring the first year or two
they tried different experiments on the dish to see how it performed,
things like painting over every other mirror to reduce the solar energy
collected, etc. The last two years I was there they just tried to keep it
running. They'd fix it and a week later it'd break down again. It was
down about 3/4 of the time waiting for parts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The first thing I would do is put them both on a hard level surface and
see if there is a significant difference in how hard they are to push.
If the Civic is much harder, then the problem is probably friction/drag.
I'd then put it in neutral and jack up one wheel at a time and see how
easily they spin. Significant drag on one wheel would indicate
bearing/brake problems. If it's on both drive wheels then you might have
differential/tranny problems, or both of them have dragging brakes.
To eliminate the brakes (assuming disc brakes) you can use a large screw
driver to force the pads back from the discs. For drum brakes you'll need
to remove the drum and spin in the automatc adjuster some to pull the pads
back.
If it still drags then it's either bearings or (if a drive wheel)
something in the axle/diff/tranny/drivetrain.
If, however, they are both similarly easy to push, then the problem is
/probably/ in your motor/controller.
However it might be in the front end alignment.
> Hi folks,
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions on where to start on identifying the
> reasons for high power usage in an EV? My Force only uses about 200 watt
> hours per mile (measured from the batteries), while my Civic is more like
> 325 to 350. Both are small aero cars, one is AC one is DC, and of course
> the Force has regen, but I don't think the difference should be so large.
>
> My thinking is this, either the Civic is requiring too much power to push
> due to drag issues, or the motor controller and battery combo have some
> sort of issue causing them to use to much electricity. So, any ideas on
> how I can identify the problem?
>
> Id do have some thoughts: Excess brake drag, a noisy transmission, a bad
> battery or to and so forth. I am just not sure where to start. This car
> has never been particularly efficient, but I can't find a good reason why
> it doesn't do better. Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My local cable company, Insight, is running a great show on EVs. It features
both land speed record attempts, a GM S-10 and a Fiero kit car.
I have digital Insight. The show is available on Video on Demand. Go Video
on Demand (channel 99 here), Mag Rack then to Wild Wheels. The show is
called Electrocars. I'll try to tape it but it's been so long since I
hooked up my DVD player I haven't used my VCR even once.
If there are folks interested I would be happy to call my cable company to
see if I can get a copy.
Joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John, Ryan, Philippe and All,
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jerry Dycus wrote:
>
> >Hi All,
> >Maybe it's time to try to make a run again
> >at the Selectria Sunrise?
> >With the company sold maybe the new owners
> >would be willing to part with it in order to sell
> >their AC drives, ect which it was designed with.
> >Would
> >be a good size market for them.
> >The molds are sitting in Rhode Island at the
> >best fiberglass building corp in the world who
> would
> >probably love to get that part of the work.
> >This was the best EV ever built and even had
> >4 seats with a 300 mile freeway range, Boston to
> NY,
> >which is still a record most likely for a 4 seater
> >and
> >would be easy to do with Li-ions! Or 120mile range
> >with lead or 180miles with ni-cads, my favorite.
> >It's all designed and even crash tested I
> >believe and should be fairly easy to put into
> >production as a kit or turn key.
> >Anyone game? Thoughts?
>
>
> Here are my thoughts:
>
> A) The car will definately need some work done on
> its body.
> The pictures of the Sunrises I've seen looked
> horrible. Get
> Wayland to recommend some styling touches on the
> car's body.
> It looked like some tacky kitcar a five year old
> could
> build, seriously. Such a thing will not sell unless
> it is
> cleaned up a bit.
There were more than one and one was rough but
the others look nice in the pics. The one on the EV
Trading Post is one of the nice ones. Thanks Mike.
If Selectria doesn't want to play, it would be
easy to take a mold off of it and do the rest from
scratch with many more power, batt options if we can
talk the owner into it. The Sunrise's aero is very
good.
Or take a mold from any car for that matter. It's
easy, much easier, lower cost than building from
scratch and gives you sources of windshields, ect.
>
> B) More power. I know AC drives are expensive, so
> maybe that
> should be shunned and a no-regen higher power DC
> setup
> should be considered, say, Zilla 1k and one or two
> 8''
> Advanced DC motors. As it was, the Sunrise was
> slower than a
> VW bus. This slowness will turn people off.
Uprades in power from Selectria or otherwise
would be easy. The design as EV glider is the hard
part.
>
> C) A transmission. This would go with the higher
> power setup
> idea mentioned if and only if it were to be
> implemented. If
> you want to get people to consider the car, maybe
> they might
> like the idea of being able to do double the speed
> limit
> when no one is looking. also, this would fit with a
> DC setup
> using a single motor, since a single DC motor on
> direct
> drive could overheat. With two DC motors, this can
> be gotten
> around by using series/parallel configurations in a
> two
> motor setup, but the cost of one will be more than
> the
> other.
As the car would be very light, under 2,000lbs
probably, this isn't a big problem. It's the reason
for going to the Sunrise beside start up tooling is
inexpensive.
Philippe, conversions is not a good way to go as
they cost at least $9,000 if new as the would have to
be and as not designed as an EV from scratch and are
much heavier, need larger motors, controllers, batt
packs for the same performance, thus making them too
expensive.
>
> D) Stick with lead acid for now to keep it
> affordable. A car
> that aerodynamic and light could have 100+ miles
> highway
> range with a sizable pack of sealed lead acid
> batteries.
> With one of Rudman's fast charge setups, range
> wouldn't be
> an issue in a hypothetical case there's be charging
> stations
> at some locations. Add other chemistries as either a
> premium
> option OR when increased production brings prices to
> lead
> acid levels.
As ni-cads are cheaper than AGM's or gels over 10
yrs and the advantages of a batt pack that lasts 20+
yrs is overwelming plus 50% more range that doesn't
decrease in winter. Plus they don't require regs on
each batt. So AGM's would only be a high power option.
Range it not a hypothetical issue to most buyers.
And why a rarely used custom DC gen will be an option
so a buyer won't have to have 2 cars.
They could be sold as kits where the buyer just has
to put in the batts provided to get around the Fed
rules.
>
> E) Pricing. Keep the parts cost low. With a $30k
> pricetag,
> an electric musclecar that can seat 4 and does 0-60
> < 7
> seconds and can at least top 120 MPH will sell.
100mph will do easily or even 80 mph for those
who would buy this EV. Also the lower top speed will
make getting to it much faster at the speeds needed
for driving most times for the same $. A trans adds
weight, drag and costs. 2 DC motors are cheaper, more
eff or 1 high rpm AC one.
> Lesser
> versions could also be made, say a 0-60 in 11 second
> model
> that tops 85 and has 100 miles highway range as
> well, for
> about $15k. Such things would necessitate a sizable
Not going to happen at that price on the Sunrise
for many reasons. On my Freedom EV 3wheeler, yes, but
a 4wh EV is a different animal at 25% more weight
amoung other reasons.
> production volume though. This would require
> successfully
> selling a few hundred cars a year, easier said than
> done.
> ESPECIALLY using a car that has a poor finish and
> trim, or
> even worse, in the event someone may try to sell
> conversions
> on old chassis.
Power options are easy. I won't build an EV
that's finish is bad and why I haven't been able to
put them into production so far as first class takes
cash. I could build a quick and dirty version but it
wouldn't sell well.
50 EV's a yr would easily be profitable.
In the boat business 50/yr is considered a great
success! Most boat lines are profitable by 10/yr or
you go out of business. They have low unit production
down to a science.
To them an EV is just a 14' inboard boat hull!
That many will sell themselves just by parking in
front of major Auto Shows.
Just on this and the Rav EV, Ev-1, Force EV list
will do that amount once the first one is built.
Getting that first one is a problem though. Until
someone(s) steps up to the plate it's not going to
happen.
I'm willing to work for others also to do any of
many different types of EV start-ups to set up
production lines at low cost.
>
>
> I'd love to help with something like this. The idea
> screams
> pipe dream, but you can't know until you try. The
> problem
> is, trying takes money.
Not as much as you think if we work together.
I'd think a committee of trusted EV'ers should be
set up to explore the options and oversee the building
of an EV to make sure the money, design is right. Or
they could design it and put building it out to bid.
I'd be glad to help in any capacity wanted.
A step by step process where milestones are
reached before the next payment is given would make it
reasonably safe and how custom yachts have been built
for centuries.
If 100 buyers would work together it wouldn't take
much.
Say for my 3wh EV, $100 deposit from each would
get the molds, first body done. Another $100 would
finish the glider details, suspensions, ect and
another $100 would make the first production EV
finished and it's sale would pay for the next one,
ect.
For the Sunrise EV, it would be about 2x that.
So for $300 each we could have a good basic EV on
the market if 100 people step up. How much easier do
you want? If EV'er are not willing to do this they
get what they deserve, no production EV's.
More details in my next post answer to Bob
Rice,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The range figure was with ovonics NiMH batteries. The motor is an AC42,
a big brother to the motor in a force. The motor controller, the
440(TF?) also went in some buses. With all that, I am sure it was
impressive. I drove a lead battery sunrise and it would shred tires.
I think the 1/4 mile time was 17 sec when we took it to Epping Dragway
(before my time), not the 60mph time. The EV1 seems to have done the
1/4 in 16.2 sec. And a 0-60 in 8 sec. So the Sunrise should be in the
same neighborhood.
But it doesn't really matter, as they aren't available.
BTW, what about an AVEO or a Matrix/Vibe for a conversion?
Seth
On Mar 19, 2005, at 10:35 PM, John Westlund wrote:
Seth allen wrote:
Umm, the Sunrise I *drove* would spin tires at will
from a stop.
Really? How fast did it hit 60 in? I remember combing the
archives and seeing Wayland comment that 0-60 was 17
seconds.
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg03788.html
The Force was indeed slow. But I remember seeing from
Solectria themselves that the 0-50 time of the Sunrise was
12 seconds(Also mentioned by Wayland). That's pretty darn
slow, even if it can spin its tires at a stop.
If it is indeed that slow, it could use a nice upgrade. Or
perhaps that 100 horsepower AC setup that Solectria has
being sold by Electro Automotive, you know, the one that has
170 pound feet of peak torque. That would be a start.
If I'm indeed wrong about this car, or there were mutliple
versions of it, let me know. I am very interested in it,
simply due to its jaw-dropping range and would like to know
more about it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:27 PM
Subject: Doing something, Re: AZ Republic Blurb
Snip-a-bit!
Hi EVerybody;
From Jerry's posting.
> > That said if 100 EV'ers would just put up
> $500-1,000 each we could start an EV production
> company and start producing them. But no, they will
> bitch but never do anything that would actually make
> something happen.
> I've offered to do it several times or help
> anyone else with my knowledge composites and of
> production of boats which is not that different than
> EV's would be. And have given up on them, so listee's,
> it's your fault as much as the auto companies. You all
> could do it if you got off your ass and put your money
> where your mouth is.
OK Line forms here! I babbled about it a bit in my last post. I'll
step up to the plate, here! DAMMIT! I WANT something good to happen. Jerry ,
how can we DO something? Would ya set up a trust fund or stock options to
build the Lumbergini? Set up a pix-ie Web site, so we have an idea what the
thing will LOOK like. I don't really care for a 3 wheeler, but would like to
kick in a small amount of seed money to see SOMETHING that works, is
affordable. A "Train Car" for the Big East, for the folks that lost their
Ford Thinks up here. Bettya there is are guyz reading this nodding their
head in agreement.Heh Heh, a Dealership, maybe? The train guy becomes the
Train Car guy? I'm about to retire from Amtrak, get going full time on
EV's!As It stands I'll do some one off conversions, when I have my own time.
Dave Cover has this in mind. Hoping to put together a Connecticut
Colelition, to do affordable turnkey ev's
I see the List being a great tech as well as moral support, mayne a $$
support for Doing Something. After all, we, as Phillipe pointed out, can do
conversions and low production stuff and put it on the road. Not so easy on
the Continent, The UK excepted, Guess ya COULD buy an EV conversion in UK
and bring it home to France? Complete with tag? Or a Think from Norway?
> There is at least 5 different people who
> could do it if they had some support on this list.
> Start with a 3 wh EV and build up to a 4 wh one would
> be quite easy.
I agree! OK Guyz! Let's hear some imput! Can we get Jerry in
production with a better "Sparrow" The Lumbergini? I like it! Or the "
Gofur" with a little gophur as a logo, it's to gofur work, the Train,
whatnot!A 2 seater, ya could haul home the weaks groceries in it!
> Look at how the Sparrow sold and it was a bad
> design. With our experience, a good design for
> handling, 2 seats side by side and designed correctly
> for ease, low cost of production, how far would it
> have gone with good management!
> I have a male mold sitting 7/8's finished like
> the white mockup in the EV Photo Album waiting for a
> couple of orders that no one will take a chance on. If
> I just had 10 orders with $2,000 deposits each it
> could be put in production with 100 mile range, 70 mph
> and costs $14,000 each with AC, generator for
> unlimited range as options!
A 50 mile range , FOR SURE would do it! But I wouldn't sue ya if it
did 100!Anything over 60 is good, for that 10 minute shot across town on the
Turnpike!
Sounds great. Lets see a show of hands for this EV. Would ya buy it
from Jerry, would 10 orders do it ,Jerry? Can ya put together a biz plan?
> Instead I have to raise the cash, design,
> build 3 Wood/epoxy EV's to sell to raise the money.
> This regretfully cost me 3 yrs delay on top of 3 yrs
> trying to raise cash in doing the composite version of
> my white mock-up. Had I known a while ago it would be
> so hard to raise money for an EV production line I
> would have done this earlier.
> So either elect a committee, make a design and
> put building it out to bid or stop bitching, it's
> getting old,
'Taint bitchin' just want to see what we can do here. Tryin' to step
to the plate with SOMETHING that runs, that we can call our own. Trying to
see if I can help make it happen. If I can help the effort, plant a good
idea, sometime, makes it easier to face the day, knowing that ya did
something good.It would appear that Jerry, like Steve Clunn is ready to do
something with something less than the National Budget
> >
> --- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > > I think this is the problem with EVs. It's not a
> > problem with EVs
> > > themselves. The "true believers" know how to build
> > them, and know that
> > > they work. But (so far) they have lacked the
> > marketing and manufacturing
> > > skills to expand it into a going business.
> >
> > Yeah! But as Harry Truman sed" The Buck Stops Here"
> > How about we utilize a presently existing EV
> > company. Be it Cloud or
> > Electro Automotive or someone else. How can we take
> > EV's to the "next
> > level"? What needs to be done that is currently
> > not?
> >
> > This is why I'm throwing ideas out here, maybe they should be thrown
out, But I'm gunna try! Finance Jerry somehow.Or just send him some
orders.<g>!
OK any legal, like Lawyer folks on EVDL? Could a sorta trust fund,
investment be set up? A few of our key techy guyz make decisions on what's
worth putting our hard earned bux into? A Wayland Report on any ideas, A Lee
Hart report on the charging systems , An Otmar Report on controllers,A Rich
Rudman on charging. You get my drift.There are a lota more clever guys on
here than I, that, maybe? We could DO something??I am humbled by the tech in
earshout here!
OK End of Rant, just TRYING to stur the pot here!
>
> Bob, one car at a time.Off to the Train!
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bob wrote:
>
> > To review, the sound doesn't occur all of the
> time.
>
> With it in neutral, can you give it just enough
> throttle so you can
> have the motor turning?
Sound not present when car is in neutral. Thus, have
concluded it's not likely the throwout bearing.
Or even with the car
> rolling, by moving the
> clutch in and out, you might be able to have an
> effect on the sound.
> If so, I would say it's the throwout bearing. Like
> for example, if it
> only makes noise when there is no load on it(clutch
> engaged), and
> roars when there is a load put on it(clutch
> disengaged).
>
>
> > It is most common at 25-32 mph in 1st gear,
>
> Find a hill, or get it up to speed, put it in 5th
> gear and let the
> clutch out. The tires will turn the transmission,
> then you can hear
> if it does it in 5th gear too just for a more
> complete picture on the
> situation.
>
> >what does a bad pilot bearing sound like?
>
> I don't think it's the pilot bearing making all that
> noise. If it's
> never been replaced though, change it out while
> you've got the
> chance($12).
>
Clutch disk has already been replaced.
> If you are going to be having the motor or trans
> out, go ahead and
> replace it. Might as well put a new clutch disc in
> it too for cheap
> insurance. Look at the pressure plate and flywheel
> for cracks on the
> surface caused by heat. Might consider replacing
> either of those
> items if so.
>
>
> FYI, I just looked on http://autozone.com/ and a
> throwout bearing for
> a '92 Civic is $42 and a clutch disc is $49. While
> I'm at: Well they
> don't list a flywheel. You might be able to get
> your stock one
> resurfaced(if it needs it) at a auto parts store
> though for like ~$7.
I had material taken off the flywheel when adapter
plate was done. It spins quite smoothly.
> If you had an engine hoist, you could lift that
> electric motor right
> out of there..
>
Would need to pull 500 lbs. of batts & the firewall
rack. Would prefer not to. Easier to go out via the
bottom of the car.
Hope the add'l info helps.
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guys, I had a field day with an article today. Always
keep it short; no diversions to Iraq, etc. Enjoy, and
cross fingers it gets printed.
peace,
There is a fine line between a visionary and a
fool. In "Pain at the pump", Mar. 20th, one of your
captions is "No one is spared". Actually, I and 4,000
of my friends across the internet were spared from
rising gas prices. We drive cars that have been
converted entirely to battery power. $9,000, a good
welder and some knowledge of electronics cured me of
oil addiction. My lead-acid batteries take me up to
45 miles per charge at a cost of $6 per month. That
same gasoline, if burned in a power plant, could
provide electricity to charge six cars like my '92
"Civicwithacord" conversion.
In California, smog laws resulted in the production
of electric vehicles that could travel over 100 miles
per charge. Even that number increases daily.
Unfortunately, as you reported about a week ago, those
cars have been reclaimed by General Motors, and are
now getting crushed in Arizona. Mark my words, we
will eventually be driving on electricity, or riding
horses.
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A pilot bearing can only make noise when the clutch has disconnected the
transmission from the flywheel. When the clutch is engaged (foot off the
pedal) the input shaft turns with the flywheel, and the pilot bearing has no
rotational work to do.
Ed Koffeman
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Bob Bath
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 12:29 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: tranny experts, pls.
>
> Hi All,
> You've probably the saying, "There's a fine line
> between a visionary and a fool". Well, as gasoline
> continues to climb lately, I've been taking some
> solace that maybe I'm more on the visionary side, and
> less of a fool. (;-p
>
> CivicWithACord just turned 1,100 miles. Would've
> put more on in the last 8 mos. I've been driving the
> rig, but of course, my town is small.
> I waited until Spring Break to pull the adapter
> plate from the tranny to troubleshoot the noisy tranny
> issue.
> To review, the sound doesn't occur all of the time.
> It is most common at 25-32 mph in 1st gear, generally
> stops for awhile when in 2nd, and comes back at higher
> RPMs. It is a rather grindy, growly type of sound.
> When I stomp on the juice, it does rev up just a bit
> without an accompanying acceleration as if there were
> slippage somewhere. It's not too loud, but definitely
> noticeable. But there can't be too much tranny
> slippage, b/c I'm at 288-300 watts/mi., which is
> pretty avg.
> Well, after thinking that perhaps the input shaft
> is rammed up too hard against the pilot
> bearing/flywheel, I was able to slide in some washers,
> about 3/32" in thickness between adapter plate/tranny.
> Bolted it all back up and... same noises.
> Next hypothesis, please...
>
> For those of you on the gearhead end of things-- what
> does a bad pilot bearing sound like? And does it look
> any different than a _good_ pilot bearing?
> (I _know_ when we assembled the flywheel, that the
> bearing looked just fine, but perhaps appearances
> don't tell the whole story. I did not spin it, take
> it out, etc).
>
> So the next plan would be to take it to my local
> tranny guy, pull the controller (again), leave the
> video of our assembly with him, so he knows what is
> entailed, and let him check out the pilot bearing. If
> that looks good, it's gotta' be the input bearing. (I
> don't have tools to pop out a bearing). Sooo,
> what does a bad one of _those_ sound like, and are
> there other symptoms?
>
> Your insights are gratefully appreciated.
> Yours Truly,
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> I've heard this arguement here before, and frankly it doesn't wash.
>
> I just can't see the automakers selling a vehicle at cost, allowing you to
> finance it for 3 or 4 years (so they don't even break even, because 4
> years later they have effectively LOST money, i.e. ROI) and not expecting
> to sell you any major parts for 7 to 10 years.
Hi Peter,
I missed your initial List re-joining period, but welcome back and good to
see you are around!
Believe me when I say that the automakers, or ~The Factory~, are not going
to sell cars to dealers at zero profit. They may not make a lot of money on
some brands and models, but there is always some profit for The Factory.
The other little known fact is how much money The (Corporate End) Factory
makes off of items that they supply to the Dealerships, signage, brochures,
official forms and pre-printed as well as blank paper forms with logos,
brand name, etc.. When I was in the business, brochures were charged at
$18.00 + per! That's not even including ongoing license and trademark fees,
franchise fees, and whatever else I was never able to discover. And who
knows in the fiscal ending each year what tax credits they can and do cash
in on. I know it sounds absurd, but Detroit and other entities have had to
shift and conform to market trends just like the rest of the world.
So, given that, perhaps your train of thought serves more to actually
support this theory (argument) that I and others ascribe to in varying
degrees.
When times get tough, the tough get competitive. The Dealerships WOULD
rather sell at a reduced profit margin than to have people walk away to
another brand and get comfortable. It's all a gamble in the business world,
and if backed into a corner, the auto business can, and does, become VERY
creative. That's why it has now come down to the warranty and finance rate
wars we have seen in the last 5 years or more.
Market hiccups and bounces don't scare the auto business minds, but to enter
into an on-going arrangement with one hand tied behind their backs, as it
has been projected through careful analysis and research by gathering
maintenance data on the few EV programs of recent years, that is a market
trend that they have little or no control over because it's dictated by
physics and such.
In other words, they can't manipulate or campagign to cause the acceleration
of wear rates and other electromechanical failures. They can only be ready
to react to and take advantage of situations wherein the vehicle owner does
something to infringe upon warranty terms or collision damage. It all comes
down to risk assesment and paying your money and taking your chances. What a
nerve racking way to earn a living. Listen to the smattering of car sale
commercials on radio during the day, it's maddening. Every month is another
"best time to buy", one city competing against another city in another state
and we need you to help us win over Salem Ford in Abilene Texas. It's a new
month and a new gimmick.
Again, welcome back and great to see you posting again Peter!
Regards,
Rick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bob,
My manual transmission has been making these noise for now about 40 years!
After 20 years of running, I install a new clutch, pressure plate and had the
flywheel resurface. Took everything to a motor shop that does motor and engine
balancing and they balance the rotor, adapter, flywheel, clutch and pressure
plate separately and all together.
A new brass pilot bearing was install and used a thick high temperature grease
on that part.
Assembly everything together, and after some time, the noise came back!!!
A old master mechanic friend of mind, sure it will do that in a electric car,
where the motor may go to 0 rpm when you let up of the clutch, but the
transmission input shaft is still rotating. This puts wear on the on the pilot
bearing.
In a engine car, the engine is always at idle, which rotates the pilot bearing
and transmission input shaft at about the same speed, even if you put it in
neutral.
This is exactly what is happening when you disengaged the clutch and shut the
power off to the motor, and the transmission shaft is now rubbing more in the
pilot bushing.
Ok, so when I did my accessory conversion where I ran standard accessories of
the pilot shaft of the motor and install a idle control. Replace the brass
pilot bushing which was very loose on the transmission shaft, cause by increase
friction while motor was not turning, the noise is just about gone while in
idle, but comes back some what when I do not idle the motor.
Also, if a pilot bearing is very loose on the input shaft of the transmission
which has a lot of movement with out a supporting good fitting pilot bearing,
the shaft and clutch will drop down a bit, which makes it out of line. Giving
it a higher rpm will center it. This movement from out of alignment to
alignment, causes some virabration at that point.
I did not think of it at the time, but you can get a roller bearing type pilot
bearing that should help this friction problem.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Bath<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 7:13 AM
Subject: (more info RE): tranny experts, pls.
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> Bob wrote:
>
> > To review, the sound doesn't occur all of the
> time.
>
> With it in neutral, can you give it just enough
> throttle so you can
> have the motor turning?
Sound not present when car is in neutral. Thus, have
concluded it's not likely the throwout bearing.
Or even with the car
> rolling, by moving the
> clutch in and out, you might be able to have an
> effect on the sound.
> If so, I would say it's the throwout bearing. Like
> for example, if it
> only makes noise when there is no load on it(clutch
> engaged), and
> roars when there is a load put on it(clutch
> disengaged).
>
>
> > It is most common at 25-32 mph in 1st gear,
>
> Find a hill, or get it up to speed, put it in 5th
> gear and let the
> clutch out. The tires will turn the transmission,
> then you can hear
> if it does it in 5th gear too just for a more
> complete picture on the
> situation.
>
> >what does a bad pilot bearing sound like?
>
> I don't think it's the pilot bearing making all that
> noise. If it's
> never been replaced though, change it out while
> you've got the
> chance($12).
>
Clutch disk has already been replaced.
> If you are going to be having the motor or trans
> out, go ahead and
> replace it. Might as well put a new clutch disc in
> it too for cheap
> insurance. Look at the pressure plate and flywheel
> for cracks on the
> surface caused by heat. Might consider replacing
> either of those
> items if so.
>
>
> FYI, I just looked on http://autozone.com/<http://autozone.com/> and a
> throwout bearing for
> a '92 Civic is $42 and a clutch disc is $49. While
> I'm at: Well they
> don't list a flywheel. You might be able to get
> your stock one
> resurfaced(if it needs it) at a auto parts store
> though for like ~$7.
I had material taken off the flywheel when adapter
plate was done. It spins quite smoothly.
> If you had an engine hoist, you could lift that
> electric motor right
> out of there..
>
Would need to pull 500 lbs. of batts & the firewall
rack. Would prefer not to. Easier to go out via the
bottom of the car.
Hope the add'l info helps.
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/<http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
People are already doing this.
http://www.stirlingenergy.com/whatisastirlingengine.htm
They use a parabolic dish to concentrate the sunlight
to heat up hydrogen and make it expand. The piston
moves and turns an electric motor.
Overall efficiency is much better than solar panels.
Rod
--- Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm thinking about making model Stirling engine that
> will generate
> a moderate amount of power.
>
> Do you have any ideas or starting points?
>
> The idea is to see if we can make something that is
> good enough to
> charge an EV for cheaper then PV panels. I think I
> may already know
> the answer to this, but perhaps not :)
>
> Thanks!
> > * LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from
> message *
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges wrote:
I always want an electric motorbike but I'm now converting a bad designed
electric scooter to make it good only because... it's already registered as
an electric scooter.
Why, in the same EU, in Finland, we are allowed to change less than 50%
of the parts in an MC and register it as modified original. If you go
over 50% you pay new vehicle taxes and other nuisance, not practical.
Motor and powertrain being 30%-35% or so. You can change the engine to
electric motor, but you have to preserve the frame and wheels and many
other parts in order to pass. I think I have figured the engine, gas
tank, battery, rear swing, chain and some other minor parts come under
49,9%. Many of the Harley-Davidson's have confirmed this percentage but
they are (un)naturally big block putters that are used instead of a real
motor ;-o for the new power train.
I have not done this yet because I'm poor and stupid but as I read the
local highway code, it should be possible, keeping dry weight without
batteries under 400 kg, motor power no more than original engine hp plus
a little. If it can be done in Finland, you should be able to - atleast
- drive it in France? But what do I know.
Maybe you or someone could convert the new german, enclosed MC with
kiddie-wheels to long range with suitable, read expensive lithiums. This
would suit really well, as the MC (the name escapes me, it being ICE :)
is already an expensive toy. There was talk about on the EVDL recently
it being energy-inefficient though.
For me, maybe I could buy a cheap 250 ccm off-road bike or a russian
side car model with a broken engine and use Etek-level conversion with
plywood aero fairing for churning along peacefully in the neighbourhood.
Pekka
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Too bad they don't have a smaller 5kW version. 60MW is a bit big for the
back yard.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rod Hower
Sent: March 20, 2005 7:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Stirling Engine
People are already doing this.
http://www.stirlingenergy.com/whatisastirlingengine.htm
They use a parabolic dish to concentrate the sunlight to heat up hydrogen
and make it expand. The piston moves and turns an electric motor.
Overall efficiency is much better than solar panels.
Rod
--- Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm thinking about making model Stirling engine that will generate a
> moderate amount of power.
>
> Do you have any ideas or starting points?
>
> The idea is to see if we can make something that is good enough to
> charge an EV for cheaper then PV panels. I think I may already know
> the answer to this, but perhaps not :)
>
> Thanks!
> > * LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from
> message *
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have you joined the sesusa forum (ses = Stirling Engine Society)? I've
often thought that a Stirling genset would be a great idea for range
extension. It would be very quiet, and you could run on in CNG.
Unfortunately, the last time I looked, prices for gensets large enough were
around $20,000.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Austin
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 10:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Stirling Engine
I'm thinking about making model Stirling engine that will generate
a moderate amount of power.
Do you have any ideas or starting points?
The idea is to see if we can make something that is good enough to
charge an EV for cheaper then PV panels. I think I may already know
the answer to this, but perhaps not :)
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
