EV Digest 4227
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Adapter Ideas
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Texas to New York using just 12 batteries!
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Charging dock idea
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Desirable amp hours
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) how often to charge and DOD
by "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Texas to New York using just 12 batteries!
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Texas to New York using just 12 batteries!
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Intellectual property
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Interesting electric vehicle statue in Arizona
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV Efficiency
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Totally off topic (was Re: Slightly off topic but of interest to
many.)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Desirable amp hours
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Charging dock idea
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: EV Efficiency
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: BB600 delivery
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV Efficiency
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Desirable amp hours
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Zytek Electric Lotus Elise exhibited at Heritage Motor Centre
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: American business model
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: New To Group
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Glider source
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Desirable amp hours
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Desirable amp hours
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Desirable amp hours
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: Desirable amp hours
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Looking for Curtis 1505 schematic
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
What car is this? Don't tell me you have an EVette?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: Adapter Ideas
My traction motor end housings is made different than the common 8 or 9 inch
motors. It seems, that these motors do not come with a end plates that are
design to bolt up right to a transmission. Does not have a C-face.
If you order a TRACTION MOTOR from the companies like GE or Westinghouse,
you specified what type of end housing that will bolt up to a transmission.
My motor came with a endplate that is bolted directly to the motor housing,
which replaces a bell end of a motor. It than bolts up to transmission bell
housing which also came with the motor. The transmission bell housing is a
gigantic inforce stamp steel unit with extra 1/4 thick plates that are
welded and also 5/8 inch grade 8 bolts that are bolted every 2 inches, like
for racing units that are turning over 15000 RPM!
The bell housing adapter to bolts the transmission bell housing to the motor
is over 2.5 inches thick that encloses the flywheel, which is to keep it
from exploding out of its case.
These are the minimum standards they will provide for a traction motor for a
EV machine.
It is way lot easier to order a traction motor as a unit. You can even get
motor mounts that bolt directly to the motor housing that is like engine
mounts. My motor bolts to the same engine mounts as a GM 350 Cu.In. engine
and the transmission uses the same engine mounts.
I timed my installation of this motor unit into the 1977 El Camino. Started
at 0800 AM and the installation was done at 0845 AM!
Twenty years later, I also timed my removing of this unit.
Again at 0800 AM, I remove the motor and transmission as a unit, broke it
down, replace two bearings with TRW motor bearings for $33.00 each.
Resurface the communtators, clean and reenamel the windings and had it ready
to go back in by 10:45 AM.
I always tell ICE owners, try to do that with your engine.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: James Massey<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: Adapter Ideas
Hi All
This discussion of adaptor plates/etc has brought up several ideas, some
of
which have merit, some have brought up thoughts of my own.
First thought: Why make an adaptor that only suits one transmission and
one
motor?
I don't know if C-face (the step on the front face of a motor) is the same
diameter for all motors, for example, do the 8" and 9" ADC and warfield
motors all use a common C-face diameter? If they are, it would be trivial
for a machine shop with CNC machines to put multiple sets of bolt holes so
as to bolt any of these motors to the plate. On the transmission side, it
would be possible for the machine shop to 'spot' (make a center-drill hole
part way through the plate) the transmission bolts for many of the most
common transmissions, and to vee a set of small concentric grooves to
facilitate finding transmission center for transmissions that are not on
the list.
This way 'major' suppliers of EV components can afford to carry some
plates
and get volume discount for having batches made instead of single plates.
Thia would speed up delivery time for many customers (those using
compatible transmissions). I know that there are hundreds of
transmissions,
but there are certain ones that are more common than others, eg the number
of Chevy S-10s that have been done.
Next thought, based in part on the first thought: To make an adaptor kit
more generic, where the vehicle is RWD, limit the transmission choices,
but
supply an adaptor plate and use a tailshaft adaptor. So the kit fits the
commonest transmissions that suit, and if the vehicle doesn't use one of
those, put one of those in and have a tailshaft made (modify the existing
tailshaft) by a driveline company to suit.
Neither of these follow the way that I have gone, which was to have made a
new end for the motor, complete with bearing housing, and vent holes into
the clutch bell (blower inlets at the brushes). My motor as no internal
fan, and I can see that any future DC motor conversions that I do will
have
the fan removed and a new motor end made. For less than half of the cost
that I have seen floated around for transmission plates, I have had a
complete new motor end made AND the aluminium flywheel that carries the
clutch friction plate (bolted in place, clutchless design).
I like the concept that someone floated, if I understand it correctly, of
a
transmission adaptor that comes as two plates, one to match the
transmission, the other to the motor, with the flywheel bolt pattern
already on a carrier shaft. The only catch that I can see, is that it
would
be very expensive.
Here is another idea, maybe a bit too 'out of the box', but how about
instead of making a plate from scratch, how about cutting the back end off
an engine block? I would expect that the casting would move too much for
this to be successful, but if someone has the machining equipment, it may
be doable (maybe an option for Rev Gadget to try).
My donor had the rear of the motor removeable, the front half of the bell
housing had the engine rear oil seal in it. It made it easy for the
machine
shop to bolt up the part to the blank of the new motor end, dial in from
the oil seal to get it true, and machine away. I don't know how many
engines are made this way.
As to an 'open platform' EV conversion kit, I believe that we will NEVER
be
able to come up with a suitable form to appeal to a large enough group to
make it viable. What I feel we need to do is to come up with commonality
of
sub-assemblies, to get bulk manufacture of cables assemblies, battery
interconnects, transmission adaptors, contactor mounting frames, battery
monitoring sub-assemblies, etc. that would be able to fit with a wide
enough group to be doable.
Just simmering the ideas pot.
James.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep, wingnut.
Notice how he puts the onus on you to find the solution rather than
providing the answer? Oh yeah, he can't back it up. Tell him I will pay
him $50,000 bucks if he can get a normal car EV to drive from Texas to NY on
a set of 12 AA batteries without recharge at 55 mph. I'll just give it to
him - I will put it up as a prize.
Maybe it is best not to even engage with him. Wingnuts are just looking for
attention. The go to the grave screaming and shouting things like this but
never accomplish a freakin' thing.
Yes sir - wingnut. Lordy Lordy Lord.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Viera
Sent: March 24, 2005 6:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Texas to New York using just 12 batteries!
Hi,
So I got an E-mail from some guy who visited my website. It started off
fine, but then just goes out there. Not only does he like the EV1, but he
has some theories you all might find interesting. ;-)
I may be wrong, but I think this last part of his e-mail should be a nominee
for the "wingnut-of-the-week" award. Though, I'm not sure it is as good as
the "Meet George Jetson" E-mail Roy LeMeur quoted here a few days ago...
Some guy wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But from here on out you might get up set with me at first but bear
with me , I've been around the block a few times. I saw reference to some
G.M. cars on your sight. They were scrapped as they well should have been.
They were obsolete junk. They were junk before they were ever built. By now
you probably have started studying Physics. If you haven't you need to, so
you will understand how we are making Electricity, What the efficiency
ratios are and is your car or the GM cars really saving any fuel or cutting
down on pollution. In both cases they are most likely doing neither. They
are using more energy than most gas driven cars and creating as much
pollution if not more. if your car was solar powered that would be another
story, but that is not the answer to your dilemma .
Now I'm really going to challenge you and your Dad's thinking , I
said you need to study the laws of Physic and electricity, but at the same
time every thing you will be taught is not true even though it is taught
every day in the finest Universities. Our motors are built totally ass
backwards, they try to gain power with the use of amps, instead of volts. We
should be using mill. amp and thousands of volts.instead. If your motors you
are using were built right you could power your jeep with a dozen AA
batteries drive your jeep to N.Y. City and back and still have charge in the
batteries. The real power is in the mass of the copper that your motor is
made out of and not in the amount of amps you are pushing through it. It
goes back to the formula E=MCsq, You will hear all kinds of smart people
talk about it but very few actually comprehend what it means.. Here is the
name of one of the masters that not only understands but has also built the
motors. Joseph Newman find him on the web easy. You will be enlightened.
Then you can check out
A55 fuel. It is 55% water 45% petroleum will burn in normal combustion
engines with the same energy as regular petroleum. What they haven't
taught you this in school ? Hey good luck and the LORD be with you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok so now if someone finds me a kiloVolt motor and Otmar builds me a new
Zilla 1K (1K being 1000 _Volts_), I'll be all set! I'd love to be able to
drive from Texas to New York on 12 AA batteries. :-)
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I once had a thought about something similar.
My idea was to use something along the lines of the tracks they use at
some car washes, these usually have a funnel type opening to guide the
wheels into the track.
But it always seemed like to much effort to build just to avoid plugging
in a cord.
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, Ryan Bohm wrote:
>>
>> It would be something about the size/weight of a small floor jack. It
>> would plug in. When you pulled over it, and a sensor-system detected it
>> was in line, it would raise up and make the connection to begin
>> charging. Even though it is fun to plug in the fuel-door, sometimes
>> you're in a hurry and don't want to think about it. If you had this
>> charging dock, it would all happen automatically. All you'd have to do
>> is pull in or back in with even a little accuracy. You could have a
>
> Ryan,
>
> Sounds rather interesting but I would never be able to align my car with
> something as small as a floor jack. And, if I switched cars, I would need
> 36, 48, 72, 96 and 120 volt models, unless you were going to make one that
> automatically senses how much voltage should be put out for the vehicle
> connected.
>
> Gail
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You have to be very careful when comparing batteries based on AH ratings.
Most Lead-Acid (PbA) batteries are rated at their "20 hour" rate, since
most conversions can drain the batteries in an hour or less, this rating
is almost useless. If you can get the 1 hour rating, that would be
better.
The 1 hour rating for GC batteries is typically about 60% of the 20 hour
rating.
Most of the sealed PbA batteries are rated at their 5 or 10 hour rate.
NiCads typically at their 1 to 2 hour rate, most of the LiIons I've seen
are rated at the 1 hour rate.
Etc.
At any rate (pun intended) try to find out the AH capacity at the rate you
expect to drain the batteries in your conversion.
> When considering batteries, obviously looking for the most AH rating is a
> factor.
>
> What is a good compromise on AH rating vs cost of battery types.
>
> How would a flooded 12V battery with 105 Ah compare with what is being
> typically used?
>
> Is anyone using an array of 10 12v for 120 total?
>
> This would seem a good compromise for size and weight, getting the
> batteries
> down to about 500 pounds or so.
> (and cost factor too)
>
> Thanks!
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I got plates for my EV motorcycle today.
There isn't an outdoor outlet at work right now and am wondering how hard I
should push to try to get on installed.
My commute is 14 miles all freeway one-way with one big hill. I am using
Trojan SCS150 100Ah flooded batteries at 72V. I only have two trips on the
pack so far so I don't really know range yet. I think I read here that I
should be easy on them to break them in the first dozen or so cycles.
Anyway, I seem to use about 140 watthours/ mile at 55MPH I need more mile to
know for sure though. My guess is about 30 miles to 70% or 80% DOD.
My question is, how much worse would it be on the batteries to do the round
trip without charging vs. charging at work?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> batteries. The real power is in the mass of the copper that your
> motor is
> made out of and not in the amount of amps you are pushing through
> it. It
> goes back to the formula E=MCsq, You will hear all kinds of smart
> people
> talk about it but very few actually comprehend what it means.. Here
Heh. So rather than charging batteries you convert the windings
directly to energy, and replace the motor more often as they are
ablated. Gee I didn't know copper was fissionable...
. _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
__) | | \______________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> motors. Joseph Newman find him on the web easy. You will be
> enlightened.
OK I googled him and found this:
http://www.ncas.org/nbsreport/contents.html
(The National Bureau of Standards was called in to prove this is not an
overunity device, because he insisted on trying to patent it.)
. _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
__) | | \______________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First, I don't know if GM tried patenting the narrow rear end thing, I was
just using that as an example.
Secondly, things that are blindingly obvious now weren't necessarily
obvious when the first person tried them.
Third, every now and then someone tries patenting the wheel.
Unless there is "prior art", etc. using your idea, then you can get a
patent on in no matter how obvious it is.
Forth, (guessing here) something like "Narrowing rear end to improve
aerodynamics" might be considered by the patent office to be entirely
different from "Narrowing rear end for aesthetics".
Again just using "narrowing rear end" as a 'fir instance'
> I wonder, how it is possible to patent blindly obvious thing
> (narrowing rear to improve aero)? This would mean no one
> can narrow rear of their new design without paying GM.
> That is, as long as GM lawyers think (and they will) that *any*
> narrowing (degree of course will depend on
> how much money defendant has) is copying GM's idea.
>
> Why GM doesn't sue Volvo - they narrowed rear end:
> http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/041014-3.htm
> Their concept came out after EV1, and Volvo isn't a
> small guy...
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>
>>>my point is that you would need to look at ALL of GMs patents on
>>>the EV-1. It's possible that they patented things like "making the
>>>rear of the vehicle narrower than the front in order to improve
>>>aerodynamics".
>>
>>
>> I agree. We'd want to read all their EV1 patents in any case, just to
>> learn from them.
>>
>> (I wouldn't worry about the narrow rear end, as there are plenty of
>> examples of prior art -- the 1950's Goggomobile for example :-)
>>
>>
>>>It /might/ be illegal to copy if you are copying an "expression"
>>>of a patented idea.
>>
>>
>> Again, I agree. But, I cannot imagine GM could have *any* patent
>> fundamental enough to serve as a serious roadblock. Cars and EVs have
>> been around so long that almost *everything* has been done at one time
>> or another. Prior art provides lots of ways to do everything without
>> patent infringement.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> They mean an electrified wheelchair or self-propelled shoping
> carts for disabled people.
>
No they don't.
I guess I'm going to have to quit trying to use subtle jokes on this list.
FWIW before the Segway was officially released they release, they were
making some overly hyped claims about how this new (undisclosed) device
was going to revolutionize the transportation industry and so forth.
Since they wouldn't say what it was, how it was going to accomplish this,
or even what it was called, folks started calling it "IT"
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>> While browsing through AZ motor vehicle statues I came across this
>> definition:
>>
>> "Electric personal assistive mobility device" means a self-balancing two
>> nontandem wheeled device with an electric propulsion system that limits
>> the maximum speed of the device to fifteen miles per hour or less and
>> that
>> is designed to transport only one person.
>>
>>
>> Hmm, I wonder what IT could be? A quick google shows that most states
>> now
>> include this, or a similar, definition.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good question. I've heard it was low due to the fact that power
transmission on the grid is inefficient. Anyone have some numbers?
Chris
Mike wrote:
Does anybody know what the efficiency of an EV is with power generation
facility efficiency and transimission losses factored in? I know that
indeed alternative energy production exists, but that is only 1% of our
total electricity generating capacity and thus the chance that our power
is coming from a clean energy source is unlikely.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe you mean totaly off topic and a direct violation of the EV list
charter.
Please do not post this kind of stuff on the EVDL. People can find it
elsewhere if they are interested.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The batteries I have readily avialable are 12v 105ah 182 reserve minute
rated marine batteries. I am trying to find out what experience anyone has
with them. I looked a the Trojans and didn't see a lot of capacity
difference in their 12v flooded offerings. I will try to see if I can
locate mfg information on my batteries.
Of course all of this has to be figured into my final design weight,
horsepower, etc. I know.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: Desirable amp hours
You have to be very careful when comparing batteries based on AH ratings.
Most Lead-Acid (PbA) batteries are rated at their "20 hour" rate, since
most conversions can drain the batteries in an hour or less, this rating
is almost useless. If you can get the 1 hour rating, that would be
better.
The 1 hour rating for GC batteries is typically about 60% of the 20 hour
rating.
Most of the sealed PbA batteries are rated at their 5 or 10 hour rate.
NiCads typically at their 1 to 2 hour rate, most of the LiIons I've seen
are rated at the 1 hour rate.
Etc.
At any rate (pun intended) try to find out the AH capacity at the rate you
expect to drain the batteries in your conversion.
When considering batteries, obviously looking for the most AH rating is a
factor.
What is a good compromise on AH rating vs cost of battery types.
How would a flooded 12V battery with 105 Ah compare with what is being
typically used?
Is anyone using an array of 10 12v for 120 total?
This would seem a good compromise for size and weight, getting the
batteries
down to about 500 pounds or so.
(and cost factor too)
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I talked to Inductran today. Line frequency stuff. Kind of expensive
for something so simple. Doesn't seem like it would be rocket science
to make youself.
Anyone have a 20kHz inductive charger/ power coupling/ split
transformer? I need a bunch of 2kW ones for work. EVs you don't drive
:)
Seth
On Mar 24, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
Ryan Bohm wrote:
Hi,
I'm thinking of designing and building a sort of docking station for
EVs. This would be in the future - I have plenty of things to keep me
busy right now. I'd like to know if anything already exists like what
I'm thinking.
It would be something about the size/weight of a small floor jack. It
would plug in. When you pulled over it, and a sensor-system detected
it
was in line, it would raise up and make the connection to begin
charging. Even though it is fun to plug in the fuel-door, sometimes
you're in a hurry and don't want to think about it. If you had this
charging dock, it would all happen automatically. All you'd have to do
is pull in or back in with even a little accuracy. You could have a
charging dock LED somewhere on the dash or in the vehicle that would
light up when it was docked (of course you'd hear the charger snap on
too).
Anyone seen anything like this? The only thing that in my mind is
fuzzy
is how you would make a weather-proof connection that would constantly
be subject to road grime, dust, moisture, and dirt. The connection
would have to handle 220 or 120 VAC, at whatever current your charger
was soaking up.
What do you think? Do-able? Already done? I think this could appeal
to people that didn't want to think about plugging in.
There has been a system like this for industrial vehicles for many
decades. The trade name "Inductran" comes to mind but I didn't check to
see if that it is.
Basically, it is a conventional 60hz transformer, sawed in half, with
half in the floor and half under the car. You drive onto it, magnetic
force pulls the two together, and it chargers.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's a document about it on Victor's site:
http://www.metricmind.com/data/bevs_vs_fcvs.pdf
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The lack of liquid is normal.
You know how to do the first charge, right? Is isn't like charging
regular batteries. The comissioning charge is a little different and
scary.
Whatever you do, get some directions, don't water them, and figure out
how to do the commissioning charge.
Seth
On Mar 24, 2005, at 9:23 AM, Christopher Robison wrote:
After all that, they're finally here. :o)
My portion of the Humphrey Haul arrived this morning at 6am, and
though it
was pretty early, it turned out not to be as bad as I thought. Mark
Farver
stopped by to lend a hand and did a lot of heavy lifting - between him,
myself, and the driver, we got the lot of 600 cells (some of which are
bound for another destination) off the palette and onto the back of the
Hombre, which is still going on its ICE engine. At just over a ton of
cells, the compact pickup was WAY beyond its weight rating, but
amazingly
the suspension still had some travel left. Fortunately it was only
about a
200 foot roll to my driveway, where we quickly moved them to my garage
floor.
After everyone had left, I broke open a box and pulled out a cell --
sure
enough, there's a sealed bag around each one, with an expiration date
printed, October 2004.
What seemed kind of odd to me (hopefully this is normal) is that there
wasn't much free liquid electrolyte in the cells. The bottom part of
the
cell is dark, containing what looks like a dark grey unmoving
gelatinous
mass around the plates. Inverting the cell caused a very tiny amount of
pale yellow liquid to drip to the top.
I know that the sintered plates absorb electrolyte when the cell is
discharged, but does this description sound right? Also, I noted small
amounts of a grainy white substance around the terminals, which
appeared
to be properly shorted with a steel spring. I can't imagine that this
substance is corrosion; the cells were sealed and unused. Could it be
some
KOH that has seeped out and dried? (Should I be worried?)
I'll try to put some pictures on my server when I get a chance,
hopefully
tonight.
--chris
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--- Begin Message ---
The grid efficiency isn't that bad. The major problem is that even though
it's possible to build 60% efficient (or better using cogeneration) power
plants, the majority of the power plants out there are older units.
As of 2001 the average thermal efficiency of US power plants was 33%.
THe distribution grid isn't so bad, but it's efficiency depends on the
load, the system is currently heavily loaded and that has increased the
transmission and distribution losses to about 9.5% (90.5% efficient).
Battery chargers average about 80% efficient.
Lead Acid batteries are about 75% energy efficient.
Motor/controller average about 80% efficient.
Transmission and drive train about 90% efficient.
33% * 90.5% * 80% * 75% * 80% * 90% =~ 13%
Note: simply improving power plants to 60% efficiency increases this to 23.5%
Note2: EVs can run on sunshine, wind, and rain. The areas where EVs are
currently most abundant are usually near hydro-electric powerplants (cheap
electricity).
Note3: Alternative (other) energy sources account for 2.8% of US power
production, Hydro is 6.6% and Nuclear (clean? Not clean?) accounts for
19.9%. Fossil fuels = 70.7%: Coal 50%, Natural gas 17.7% and Petroleum
3%.
Note4: Giggles and grins, assuming all non-fossil fuel power plants are
100% efficient, EVs then become 20.5% efficient.
References:
http://www.energetics.com/gridworks/grid.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epm_sum.html
> Good question. I've heard it was low due to the fact that power
> transmission on the grid is inefficient. Anyone have some numbers?
>
> Chris
> Mike wrote:
>> Does anybody know what the efficiency of an EV is with power generation
>> facility efficiency and transimission losses factored in? I know that
>> indeed alternative energy production exists, but that is only 1% of our
>> total electricity generating capacity and thus the chance that our power
>> is coming from a clean energy source is unlikely.
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
At any rate (pun intended) try to find out the AH capacity at the
rate you expect to drain the batteries in your conversion.
So, is there any way to convert the 20hr rate to say, the 1hr rate, or
would you have to ask the manufacturer for this information? I ask
because Trojan, for example, only publishes the 20hr rates on their website.
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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You need 8x as much power to overcome aero drag to go 150 vs. 75. The
range would be maybe 1 mile at 150 mph, and maybe the wiring or motor
or batteries can't handle the heat. I suspect you'd have to upgrade
more than the transmission.
For a land speed run, I think you might actually be fastest to chill
the batteries and motor to make sure they don't overheat. It's like
doing about eight 1/4 mile runs in a row with no rests in between!
You have pointed out a benefit many conversions have that the
production EVs lack -- a transmission -- no speed limits due to
gearing! Hopefully you'll run your machine on the Salt Flats and brag
that it is faster than a Lotus!
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> One sweet ass car, but I think they could have done better.
> The 90 MPH top end is the turnoff. Everything else seems
> just the way it should be. Should have had a two-speed
> transmission though, one gear for 0-80, and another for
> 80-150+ for those times Ponch and John aren't around at a
> speed trap.
> ...
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
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On 23 Mar 2005 at 9:55, Evan Tuer wrote:
> I had a look at a Daewoo Matiz (http://www.mymatiz.com/) and it
> didn't strike me as being of low build quality, it's actually quite a
> nice little car.
I rode in one, and it was surprisingly quiet and comfortable. Yes, it's
small, but I wouldn't assume that it's not crashworthy. I haven't seen
crash test results, but often in a collision the smaller vehicle actually
protects its occupants better.
I was also favorably impressed with the Daewoo Rezzo, an unusually flexible
small wagon. The one I rode in was an LPG fueled model. It would make a
good conversion, I think; it's small and light, but has lots of room inside.
Regrettably, I don't think either one of these is likely to show up here in
the states.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 23 Mar 2005 at 4:03, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> One of the reasons you see a lot of GEOs and S10s is because Solectria was
> able to get gliders (new cars with no motors) from Chevy for a while.
Actually, it was only for a few years. For a good portion of the Force's
lifetime, Solectria was buying complete cars and disposing of the entire
drivetrain. I've heard that at one point they had a huge pile of exhaust
parts behind their shop.
By about '96 or '97, I think the cost of a base Force had crept up to nearly
$36K. That was when they finally convinced GM that they built a good
product and paid their bills, so GM gave them a glider contract. (I have no
real reason to suspect this, but I also wonder if GM might have have wanted
to keep another EV option open in case they failed to undermine California's
Braude Initiative.)
Buying gliders allowed Solectria to drop the Force's price closer to $31K.
That was cheap (IMO) for a car with a hand-built powertrain, but expensive
for a Geo Metro. <g> (I'm going on memory here and these price numbers may
be a little off - Seth may have more accurate ones.)
Regrettably, when GM withdrew the Metro from the US market, that was the end
of the Force (though I imagine there were other causes too).
All that said, a Geo Metro is a quite reasonable conversion base.
The really old ones (Chevy Sprints) are wonderfully light (around 1500 lb in
ICE trim, IIRC) and still can handle reasonable amounts of battery weight.
I believe Otmar built an EV on one, and for a while EVsNW was also
converting them, IIRC.
The next generation ('91 - 94?), hatchback design, were markedly heavier
(1800 lb?), but those are the ones that Solectria used to make a 2100 lb EV.
From what I heard, the last generation Metros were more popular with
customers because of the 4-door sedan design, but weight was starting to
creep up quite a bit.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 23 Mar 2005 at 9:59, Paul Wallace wrote:
> One other thing to consider is battery pack leasing. I think that you
> could get a local garage very interested in this.
I've been advocating this for years.
I've seen many, many used EVs for sale with the phrase "needs batteries."
The problem is that Joe or Jane average buys (eh, make that ^bought^ as
there's currently none readily available for sale) an EV for any one of
several reasons. The car comes with batteries, a charger, minimal battery
management hardware, and (maybe) a few words of instruction in the manual
(which nobody reads), and that's it.
The owner drives the car for a while, boasting that it costs him almost
nothing. With overcharging and overdischarging, the battery is soon kaput.
The owner discovers that a replacement costs, say, $1800! He's never spent
that kind of money on a 2-year-old gas car, but he swallows his annoyance
and buys the new battery.
Another couple of years go by and he hasn't learned to take care of the
battery (indeed, there's no one to tell him how). Nor has he learned to put
aside some money each month to cover battery costs. Now his battery is junk
again. By this time the newness and novelty of the car has worn off. He
parks the car "until I can save up for batteries." There it sits, beside
the garage. Eventually he either sells it to one of us, or has it hauled
away as junk.
But suppose he leases the battery pack instead of buying it with the car.
Now he has a regulary monthly or quarterly payment to cover battery expense,
pretty much the same as the monthly credit card bill from the gas pump. He
also has "free" regular maintence, "free" monthly inspections and tests, and
"free" replacement of failed or weak modules. He always has a reliable
battery with a predictable range - and no $1800 surprises.
Meanwhile, the battery vendor has a powerful incentive to use battery
management, and to look for modules with long life and/or lower maintenance
to maximize his profit.
You might add some options to this scheme. For example, include road
service: the battery dealer will send out a charging truck to give you a 10
minute fast charge if you get stuck somewhere with a flat battery. If the
user finds the battery's capacity is too low, he can upgrade to an advanced
battery at any time for the incremental cost. I'm sure creative people can
come up with even more.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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>From past posts, most people who have used flooded 12V marine batteries
have been VERY dissapointed in their life span, typically less than one
year.
The 182 minute reserve indicates that at the 3 hour rate these batteries
produce 76AH.
> The batteries I have readily avialable are 12v 105ah 182 reserve minute
> rated marine batteries. I am trying to find out what experience anyone
> has
> with them. I looked a the Trojans and didn't see a lot of capacity
> difference in their 12v flooded offerings. I will try to see if I can
> locate mfg information on my batteries.
> Of course all of this has to be figured into my final design weight,
> horsepower, etc. I know.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Desirable amp hours
>
>
>> You have to be very careful when comparing batteries based on AH
>> ratings.
>>
>> Most Lead-Acid (PbA) batteries are rated at their "20 hour" rate, since
>> most conversions can drain the batteries in an hour or less, this rating
>> is almost useless. If you can get the 1 hour rating, that would be
>> better.
>> The 1 hour rating for GC batteries is typically about 60% of the 20 hour
>> rating.
>>
>> Most of the sealed PbA batteries are rated at their 5 or 10 hour rate.
>> NiCads typically at their 1 to 2 hour rate, most of the LiIons I've seen
>> are rated at the 1 hour rate.
>>
>> Etc.
>>
>> At any rate (pun intended) try to find out the AH capacity at the rate
>> you
>> expect to drain the batteries in your conversion.
>>
>>> When considering batteries, obviously looking for the most AH rating is
>>> a
>>> factor.
>>>
>>> What is a good compromise on AH rating vs cost of battery types.
>>>
>>> How would a flooded 12V battery with 105 Ah compare with what is being
>>> typically used?
>>>
>>> Is anyone using an array of 10 12v for 120 total?
>>>
>>> This would seem a good compromise for size and weight, getting the
>>> batteries
>>> down to about 500 pounds or so.
>>> (and cost factor too)
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:00:25 -0600, Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> At any rate (pun intended) try to find out the AH capacity at the
>> rate you expect to drain the batteries in your conversion.
>
>So, is there any way to convert the 20hr rate to say, the 1hr rate, or
>would you have to ask the manufacturer for this information? I ask
>because Trojan, for example, only publishes the 20hr rates on their website.
Yes you can with a little more info. You need the 20 hour rate and
either the Peukert exponent or the reserve minutes. You can also
figure the capacity at any discharge rate from the time to discharge
from two fairly widely spaced discharge rates.
I have a spreadsheet on my web page that does all these
Peukert-related calculations. Go here:
http://www.johngsbbq.com/Neon_John_site/EV/EV_home.htm
And download the spreadsheet near the bottom of the page.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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> > At any rate (pun intended) try to find out the AH capacity at the
> > rate you expect to drain the batteries in your conversion.
>
> So, is there any way to convert the 20hr rate to say, the 1hr rate, or
> would you have to ask the manufacturer for this information? I ask
> because Trojan, for example, only publishes the 20hr rates on their website.
>
> --
> -Nick
You need the Peukert's coefficient to compute this, and even then, it gets
inaccurate at C1 or below. Maybe ione of my pages will help:
http://www.geocities.com/hempev/Battery.html
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I guess the question comes down to which batteries deliver the best power &
longevity cost wise? If you buy a $50 battery and it last a year vs $100
battery lasts 2 years, what is the difference?
Still trying to learn as much as possible.
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I am searching for the schematic for the Curtis 1505 24V DC motor
controller. I have all the wiring diagrams and measurements. I also have
several of the actual controllers. I am looking specifically for the
actual wiring schematic.
This is the old EV Warrior bicycle controller and there are a bunch of
sources for them in the surplus channels. No schematics though. Nothing
at Curtis either. Not even a hit on the model number at their site. They
have apparently abandoned all support of this old controller.
Can anyone assist? This is for an end user who wants to make mods to the
thing. Please either post a link or feel free to contact me via email
directly. I'll relay the information. Thanks in advance for your
assistance.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
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