EV Digest 4230
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV Efficiency
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Flooded batteries max current?
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Adapter Ideas
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: From the Wayland EV Laboratory...the Siamese 8!
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery controllers, was gliders
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Desirable amp hours
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Link 1000
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Adapter plate measurement website
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV Efficiency
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV Efficiency
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery controllers, was gliders
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Brag about your EV
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Flooded batteries max current?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery controllers, was gliders
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Desirable amp hours
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Link 1000
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Flooded batteries max current?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Flooded batteries max current?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Tax Credit (Deduction)
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Brag about your EV
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Dual rear chain drive in conversions
by "John Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Dual rear chain drive in conversions
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) adapter ideas
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Battery controllers, was gliders
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: EV Efficiency
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: EV Efficiency - chargers - efficiency vs power factor
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Flooded batteries max current?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Flooded batteries max current?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: slightly OT: Oregonian EV legisl.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Adapter Ideas
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) RE: Optima flavor question.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) Re: adapter ideas
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
33) Re: Dual rear chain drive in conversions
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
34) Re: Flooded batteries max current?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
35) Re: Dual rear chain drive in conversions
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
36) Re: adapter ideas
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Note2: EVs can run on sunshine, wind, and rain. The areas where EVs are
> currently most abundant are usually near hydro-electric powerplants (cheap
> electricity).
>
This is probably common knowledge to most on the list, but in some states
you can sign up for 100% wind power at your home. I use Green Mountain here
in south Texas. It costs about 30% more than the regular gas/coal/nuclear
supplier available here, but is still a lot cheaper than I could do
installing my own windmill. When people try to argue that my EM pollutes
just as much as an ICE motorcycle because of power plant emissions, I have a
good reply: my EM runs on wind power. Mark T.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 3/23/05
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, The most I can get out of my floodeds (18-T875) is about 350A, and
that is accelerating going up hill. Controller is 600A T-Rex. Maybe I
pull more, but it would be for such a short time that I have never seen
it on the emeter.
Lynn
See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Viera
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 2:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Flooded batteries max current?
Hi,
I'm just curious what you all would say the maximum safe current you can
pull from typical 6 or 8-Volt golf cart batteries is?
I have my Zilla set to limit battery current to 400 amps max., because
I've been told that is a pretty safe number to use. However, I'm curious
if it is possible to get more current out of these batteries for short
amounts of time without damaging them? Say, maybe closer to 500 amps? Or
would going over 400 amps be risky?
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > I looked into some of the details of the generic mountings
> > that james was talking about and i decided it looked ugly
> > and actually added cost to have extra holes...
>
> > I think there would be a huge benifit in open designs, we
> > don't have to agree on one design, we can instead each
> > specialize and share.
>
> You neatly state the two sides to this coin. People are used
> to normal car parts, which are custom designed for precisely
> one purpose; nice flowing molded shapes, precision
> tolerances, exactly the right holes in only the right places, etc.
>
> A generic mass-produced adapter is cheaper, but looks ugly.
> So, people would rather pay $500 for a precision machined
> custom adapter than $50 for an ugly homemade-looking
> collection of bolted-together parts. Even though they both
> work the same. Human nature.
I think it is a mistake to assume that people would rather pay $500 than
$50 for their adapter. In the vast majority of conversions I have seen,
the engine bay is so crammed with batteries, wiring, etc, that one is
lucky if they can even get a glimpse of the motor, nevermind the
adapter. Indeed, in the vast majority of conversions, there is
compelling underhood evidence that EVers are generally unconcerned with
the appearance of their work and will not spend even $10 more on
tie-wraps and loom to even make their wiring appear neat and tidy. ;^>
However, if one wanted to go the generic adapter route with reasonable
appearance, it would be possible to not drill *any* holes all the way
through, but instead only have pilot holes for a variety of bellhousings
drilled partially through _from_the_tranny_side_. The end user would
place the plate on his bellhousing and identify which set of holes to
finish drilling out. Once assembled to the bellhousing, the unused
partially drilled holes would be hidden from sight and the only bolts
would be the ones required to hold the adapter to the bellhousing.
If the end user wants that 'custom' look, they could trace out the shape
of their bellhousing on the plate after mating them, and then remove the
plate and use a jig saw to trim the adapter as desired. Of course, if
one took advantage of Jeff's anodising idea, trimming the plate might
look a bit odd (or not; after trimming use a bit of scotchbrite pad to
polish the cut edge and it will soon look almost like stainless steel,
then apply a bit of hard automotive wax to protect it from the elements
and it will stay shiny; this might not look bad at all).
Regarding the 'make the motor/adapter/controller/etc. assembly drop in
like the original ICE' idea, I tend to agree with Mike Brown that in
most conversions underhood space is required for batteries and so the
controller, etc. might be best located elsewhere.
In my own car (an '87 Suzuki Forsa == Chevy Sprint), I retained the
original engine mounts and fabricated a simple tubular crossmember in
the shape of an inverted 'U' that spans them and has a bracket at its
center that bolts to the ubiquitous 'clamshell' type strap around my ADC
8" motor. Since I am not locating any traction batteries in the engine
bay, I chose to hang the motor from the crossmember so that I could
mount my controller directly above the motor on the crossmember.
However, in most cases, traction batteries do end up in the engine bay
and so a 'U'-shaped crossmember passing beneath the motor would be more
generally acceptable.
I'm not sure that the extra weight and cost of making a vehicle-specific
crossmember part of the adapter plate assembly is justified vs having a
generic adapter plate and simply installing the appropriate crossmemeber
into the vehicle first and then sliding the clamshell mount on the motor
as required to align it with the crossmember at installation time.
Some interesting ideas have come out of this thread; keep 'em coming!
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wayland wrote:
> As things progress, I'll give updates.
How about some pics of the progress? Do you have a digital camera?
Can get on for cheap at Walmart and it will do fine. Plenty of free
online image hosts:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-07,GGLD:en&q=free+image+host
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Robert MacDowell wrote:
> How do *I* build an EV for my friends that will serve
> them well? Given that they are not experts at battery management.
Use Optimas or AGM Exides and send it on it's way.
If the price here is $98.. I wonder what it is at the distributer?
http://www.autosupplyusa.com/exor34exdeep.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee wrote:
> When people are forced to use 12v batteries in their EVs (because enough
> 6v won't fit, for instance),
This got me thinking. Say for example, I could only fit 12 Optimas
for a 144v system. That's ok for our current DC setups. But when we
start playing with AC in the near future. Would be nice to have 12,
16 volt bats for 192v vs 144v. Or even better, some 24v bats for 288v
or even better... those 42v batteries at 504v... Nice..a 504v AC
system from 12 batteries.. Think about the crazy high voltages we
could run with 42v batteries.
When the situation is you've only got space for 12, what are you going to do?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
In the PV system (see http://www.ironandwood.org/graphics/RV_PV.pdf) on my
5th wheel I have a Link 1000 as a system monitor. If I remember correctly
only difference between the Link 10 and 1000 is that it has a JR45 link to
the Freedom series inverter/charger, so that it can equalize the battery
bank.
The last function on the face is the time remaining which goes from CCC,
(which is battery charging or 100% charged) to 255 min and then on down or
up depending upon usage. It is so sensitive that even now, while I am
putting 10 amps (at 12 V from my PV panels) into my batteries I can turn on
and off the booster for the TV and the rate changes from CCC to 255.
My reason for all of the above is - if the 1000 was in my EV could the time
estimate be used to determine how many miles were left on the pack?
Rush
Tucson AZ
converting a '86 Mitsubishi truck
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
Someone from this group or another, can't remember which one, put this one up
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/
Rush
Tucson AZ
converting a '86 Mitsubishi truck
----- Original Message -----
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 3:00 PM
Subject: Adapter plate measurement website
> Here is my 1999 Ford Ranger 4cyl adapter plate design. There is no info
> on the hub becuase it was built for a Siemens motor and I was not happy
> with the hub design. The plate hole pattern is good however. (Don't
> forget to move the center holes if it will be used with an ADC motor)
>
> http://mindbent.org/adapters/
>
> Any questions or other plates for submission please feel free to send me
> a note.
>
> Mark Farver
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Markwrote:
> This is probably common knowledge to most on the list, but in some states
> you can sign up for 100% wind power at your home.
I could sign up for it too. It would cost more. The fact is though,
I'm already using it and so is everyone else. Those wind turbines are
hooked up to the grid. There is no way someone is not already on
"wind power":
http://www.oge.com/es/wp/default.asp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Ryan Stotts wrote:
The fact is though, I'm already using it and so is everyone else.
Those wind turbines are hooked up to the grid. There is no way
someone is not already on "wind power":
That may be so. However, my understanding is that when you sign up for
something like a "wind power" program, you are in fact getting clean
electricity generated.
True, there is no way the power company can magically make the
electricity made from the windmills go straight to your house, meaning
the electricity you use is not suddenly all generated from clean sources.
But the power company, per their agreement, is obligated to bring
more windmills online when you pay for the wind-power program, thus
offsetting your energy usage by adding more clean electricity into the
grid.
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Auto supply usa has the best price available. even
better than the distributer can sell to you, and he
has a deal with Exide so that you can pick your order
up from any exide dealer with no shipping charges.
talk to Joe Zapata and tell em' Gadget sent ya. If as
a group we can generate enough sales maybe we can get
an even better discount.
Gadget
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Robert MacDowell wrote:
>
> > How do *I* build an EV for my friends that will
> serve
> > them well? Given that they are not experts at
> battery management.
>
> Use Optimas or AGM Exides and send it on it's way.
>
> If the price here is $98.. I wonder what it is at
> the distributer?
>
> http://www.autosupplyusa.com/exor34exdeep.html
>
>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>The problem now with peddling EVs is, when the guy
>says "OK, so I'm
>convinced. Let's go buy one", what are you going to
>say? "Oh, uh,
>well, can I interest you in a 1983 Rabbit conversion?"
>Nah. Not
>gonna cut it.
A Triumph Spitfire, MGB, Fiat Spyder, Datsun 1200,
Volkswagen Kharmen Ghia, VW Bus, Datsun Z car, and many
others certainly would cut it, however.
Geezermobiles from the 1970s? Yuck. Give me a 3-dr Hyundai Getz that can
run sub-15s.
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
> I'm just curious what you all would say the maximum safe current
> you can pull from typical 6 or 8-Volt golf cart batteries is?
It's not a "safety" issue; it's a battery life issue. The higher the
current, the shorter the battery's life.
For a 6v golf cart battery, keep it under about 200 amps and you get
full rated life (typically 600+cycles). As you go higher, life falls.
The length of time you draw the current is also a factor.
As a very rough guide: If you routinely pull 500 amps for 15 seconds at
a time, you'll cut the life in half. Even higher currents, or for longer
periods, coupled with excessively deep discharges so you pull cells
below 1.75v/cell, and you'll be doing good to get even 100 cycles. At
this point, you'd be better off with AGMs.
8v batteries are basically the same, except the allowable currents are
proportionately lower; more like 150 amps for normal life, 350 amps for
half life.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Robert MacDowell wrote:
> I find modern engines are on the whole far, far better than
> 20 years ago, and far more fixable. I find the trouble is
> old-school mechanics who refuse to understand modern
> engines.
I know that the overall *average* reliability of modern car engines is
very good. But, if you get one of the "lemons" that just happens to fail
outside of warranty, the stage is set for nightmarish repair bills.
I'm sure that undertrained mechanics are part of the problem. Too many
will just keep replacing expensive parts at random until they either get
lucky and find the problem, or the customer runs out of money.
And, it doesn't help that they won't replace the small, simple,
inexpensive part that actually failed; they will only replace an entire
major assembly for a very high price.
> As for collision damage, that's a GOOD thing. I don't
> think cars are totaled in minor accidents. I think they are
> totaled in serious accidents, that their owners call "minor"
> because they walked away.
There are examples of both. But I wasn't referring to a major accident
in a new car; I was thinking of a minor accident in an older car. When
the bumper and headlights cost $5000 to replace, even a 5 mph
fender-bender in the parking lot can "total" a 5-10 year-old car.
>> So, an EV that needs an expensive battery at fairly low
>> mileage is not that much different from some ICE cars.
> I'm talking about real EVs, here and now, that we convert from
> gas cars. How do *I* build an EV for my friend that will serve
> them well? Given that they are not experts at battery management.
It *can* be done. It's just that most amateurs err on the "cheap" side,
and leave out the "idiot lights" and safety shutdown systems that
protect against abuse and damage.
If I'm building an EV to drive myself, I can get by with only a
voltmeter and ammeter. I can use a controller with no undervoltage
shutdown. I can use a non-isolated charger, and bypass its GFCI so I
don't have to keep the batteries clean. I can leave the old ICE's
"temperature" and "alternator" idiot lights non-functional. I can leave
off any kind of rpm limiter that would have protected againsts
overspeeding the motor.
Of course, when (no if) things go wrong and fail, they will be *big*
failures. And I have no one to blame but myself.
So, if you're building an EV for someone else to drive, you need to
include extra parts to deal with all these details. An E-meter, set up
to properly indicate state of charge and warn you of low pack voltage
and shut you down if it gets too low. Setup the controller's
undervoltage limit to back off power to prevent reversing any cells. Use
an isolated charger. Hook up the ICE's idiot lights so they work again.
Include a rev limiter to prevent wrecking the motor.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> When the situation is you've only got space for 12, what are you
> going to do?
On the 2004-2005 Prius, Toyota reduced the voltage of the HV pack, and
added a voltage doubler to get back the high voltage needed for their AC
inverters and electric motors.
This would be an alternative for DC drive EVs, too. You could use a
lower voltage pack, and boost its voltage with the controller (instead
of reducing it, as most EVs now do).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
Hi,
In the PV system (see http://www.ironandwood.org/graphics/RV_PV.pdf) on my
5th wheel I have a Link 1000 as a system monitor. If I remember correctly
only difference between the Link 10 and 1000 is that it has a JR45 link to
the Freedom series inverter/charger, so that it can equalize the battery
bank.
The last function on the face is the time remaining which goes from CCC,
(which is battery charging or 100% charged) to 255 min and then on down or
up depending upon usage. It is so sensitive that even now, while I am
putting 10 amps (at 12 V from my PV panels) into my batteries I can turn on
and off the booster for the TV and the rate changes from CCC to 255.
My reason for all of the above is - if the 1000 was in my EV could the time
estimate be used to determine how many miles were left on the pack?
I thought the Link 10 had a time meter that based itself on the Perk
factor of your draw over time. Mine is pretty accurate, however I have
it scaled low just to be on the safe side (I have a 52ah pack but my
E-meter is set for a 40ah because that gives me an overhead of 10ah)
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Lee Hart wrote:
8v batteries are basically the same, except the allowable currents are
proportionately lower; more like 150 amps for normal life, 350 amps for
half life.
Well, it's interesting to hear you say that because I can't seem to pull
more than say 200 amps without the voltage sagging below 1.75 volts per
cell. This is with Trojan T-875s.
Especially lately, even after a (supposedly full) charge, my 160-volt
pack will sag down into the 130-140 volt range with higher currents. At
400 amps (which I pull frequently during acceleration), my pack almost
always drops way down to the 120-130 volt range. Sometimes it wants to
drop lower and the Zilla is cutting back the current by like 30-80 amps
to prevent it from dropping below 120 volts. Does the fact that the
voltage sag has gotten this bad mean this pack is dying?
According to my logs, this pack now has 76 cycles on it.
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
> I can't seem to pull more than say 200 amps without the voltage
> sagging below 1.75 volts per cell. This is with Trojan T-875s...
> According to my logs, this pack now has 76 cycles on it.
When everything is right, you should be able to pull over 500 amps from
a fully charged 8v battery without its voltage sagging to 7v
(1.75v/cell).
It could be that your pack just isn't broken in yet. That's not many
cycles.
Or, you may have a "lemon" in the string, whose voltage sags much more
than the rest.
Or, your pack may be cold. This considerably affects flooded lead-acids.
Or, you may have wimpy, high-resistance interconnects between batteries.
You aren't using that 5/16" stud and ring terminals, are you?
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Based on what I see in Publication 535, it looks like the maximum
deduction you can take for (in our case) a BEV is $2000, not $3000:
"Deduction limit. The maximum deduction you can claim for qualified
clean-fuel vehicle property with respect to any motor vehicle is one
of the following.
1. $50,000 for a truck or van with a gross vehicle weight rating
over 26,000 pounds or for a bus with a seating capacity of at least 20
adults (excluding the driver).
2. $5,000 for a truck or van with a gross vehicle weight rating
over 10,000 pounds but not more than 26,000 pounds.
3. $2,000 for a vehicle not included in (1) or (2)."
. . .or am I missing something?
Matt Graham
Florida EAA member
300V Nissan 240SX (grrr--yes, still in progress)
--- Mark Farver wrote:
> Actually, you're both right. Conversions can not apply for the Electric
> Vehicles _Credit_ ( 10% the purchase price of a new EV, up to a max
> credit of $4000, phased out this year IIRC).
>
> Conversions do qualify for the "Clean Fuels" _Deduction_ (you can deduct
> up to $3000 of the parts cost to convert an existing vehicle to a
> "cleaner" fuel (CNG, Propane, Electric, whatever).
>
> For anyone unfamiliar. A credit is basically the government giving you
> money, it applies directly to your tax bill and if you overpaid you get
> it as a refund. A deduction only reduces your taxable income. So
> deductions are worth only about 25-30% of the value of a credit. (Major
> simplification, consult a qualified tax advisor)
>
> Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We definitly need to stress the selling points. Let me add..
- no oil changes, smog inspections, or muffler shops
- Daimond lane access
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What sort of set-ups have people used for dual motor rear wheel direct
chain drives on conversions? Does any one have photos on the web? What
are the pros and cons?
Thanks,
John
John Foster
VEVA
Dynasty Electric Car Co
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There used to be a custom car company that created Model T replicas, and had
a chain drive, as they were powered by motorcycle drivetrains. Let me do
some research...
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 10:25 AM
Subject: Dual rear chain drive in conversions
What sort of set-ups have people used for dual motor rear wheel direct
chain drives on conversions? Does any one have photos on the web? What
are the pros and cons?
Thanks,
John
John Foster
VEVA
Dynasty Electric Car Co
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was able to post some pictures of the flywheel
install to my website. The whole process was really
simple, cheap and universal. To modify the flywheel,
weld in the adapter, and drill the pilot hole in the
motor shaft, cut out the adapter plate, and put the
whole thing together took less than 4 hours.
The stuff can be found here.
http://reverendgadget.com/subpage.html
Gadget
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> There are examples of both. But I wasn't referring to a major accident
> in a new car; I was thinking of a minor accident in an older car. When
> the bumper and headlights cost $5000 to replace, even a 5 mph
> fender-bender in the parking lot can "total" a 5-10 year-old car.
Umm, we used to have a law requiring 5 mph bumpers (i.e. zero damage in
5mph parking lot accidents). I know the US auto makers were fighting to
get this eliminated and judging by the plastic bumpers common on cars now,
I think they did.
However, the point is that I don't think a 5 mph accident will not total a
10 year old car.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The only source I've found was K&W.
> Hey, that's exactly what I need: a replacement fuse for a K&W BC-20. Any
> idea where I can get one? Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No. You, and several others, are confusing PEAK efficiency with overall
average effeciency. The peak efficiency of a charger (even a cheap one)
probably exceeds 90%, but the average efficiency, over the complete charge
cycle, is 80% or less.
In order to accurately measure the average efficiency, you need to plug
the charger into a (accurate) KWH meter and use another KWH meter on the
DC side. You need to look at Kilowatt HOURS not just instantaneous KW to
determine the average efficiency.
> I think there is some confusion between a charger's power factor and its
> efficiency.
>
> A real light dimmer ( the one in the wall in your living room) is very
> efficient. If it were even as low as 90% efficient, it would produce much
> more heat that it could disipate inside a wall electrical box. It can
> have
> a very low power factor, but that doesn't necessarily mean low
> efficiency.,
>
> I've never seen a K&W charger ( basically a smart light dimmer) in
> operation, but, unless they dissipate a LOT of heat, it's hard to imagine
> them having efficiency as low as 70%. If that were true, and the charger
> were delivering 1000 watts into the batteries, it would have to dissipate
> more than 400 watts in heat. Do these things really give off that much
> heat?
>
> I'm just talking about the effiiency of the charger itself; that is, how
> much power it pushes into the batteries as a percentage of power it takes
> out of the wall socket. The batteries themselves are probably much less
> efficient than the charger. That's a whole different question.
>
> If you want to know the efficiency of your charger, plug it into a Kill-a
> Watt ( and measure real watts, not volt-amps) and divide that power by the
> DC power out of the charger ( example : 120V at 8 amps).
> Tell us what you come up with.
>
> Phil Marino
>
>
>
>>From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>To: [email protected]
>>Subject: Re: EV Efficiency
>>Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:25:39 -0700 (MST)
>>
>> >> > Battery chargers average about 80% efficient.
>> >>
>> >> Many are better than that and any EV production
>> >> would be. About 90% or better.
>> >
>> > Where are you seeing anything like 90%? Maybe Rich can tell us what
>> his
>> > PFC
>> > series averages, because all the ones I've dealt with (and probably
>> the
>> > scrounged-up one's you use) can't average themselves out of the 70's!
>>
>>I was trying to be generous, obviously some folks are more generous than
>>others.
>>I was also assuming that high quality chargers, like the ones from
>>Solectria, Metric Mind, and Rich, were much better than my K&W.
>>
>>Please don't think I'm dissing the K&W, it gets the job done and, other
>>than problems finding replacement fuses, it's been reliable. I just
>> don't
>>consider it a very 'high tech' or efficient charger.
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In this case you shouldn't really lump 6V and 8V batteries together.
Personally, if you want to get maximum life out of 8V batteries, I would
limit them to 300 amps.
6V batteries should be ok for the rare 600 amp surge, especially if you
have the larger T-145s.
FWIW A lot of folks haven't had very good luck with 8V GC batts. I think
one of the reasons mine lasted so long is because my controller had a 350A
battery current limit, and even then I almost never went over 300 amps.
Plus I typically discharged them less than 50% DOD. Can't really say how
the previous owner treated them though, but I got the impression he didn't
drive it that often.
> Hi,
>
> I'm just curious what you all would say the maximum safe current you can
> pull from typical 6 or 8-Volt golf cart batteries is?
>
> I have my Zilla set to limit battery current to 400 amps max., because
> I've been told that is a pretty safe number to use. However, I'm curious
> if it is possible to get more current out of these batteries for short
> amounts of time without damaging them? Say, maybe closer to 500 amps? Or
> would going over 400 amps be risky?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Especially lately, even after a (supposedly full) charge, my 160-volt
> pack will sag down into the 130-140 volt range with higher currents. At
> 400 amps (which I pull frequently during acceleration), my pack almost
> always drops way down to the 120-130 volt range. Sometimes it wants to
> drop lower and the Zilla is cutting back the current by like 30-80 amps
> to prevent it from dropping below 120 volts. Does the fact that the
> voltage sag has gotten this bad mean this pack is dying?
>
Either that, or they are cold.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This thread is not really EV related, since CA emissions standards are no
longer canted toward ZEVs. I won't go so far as to say "quit it," but I
will discourage list members from continuing it online, and strongly
encourage those interested in it to respond to the poster privately.
Thanks!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> A generic mass-produced adapter is cheaper, but looks ugly.
>> So, people would rather pay $500 for a precision machined
>> custom adapter than $50 for an ugly homemade-looking
>> collection of bolted-together parts. Even if they both
>> work the same. Human nature.
Roger Stockton wrote:
> I think it is a mistake to assume that people would rather pay
> $500 than $50 for their adapter.
Well, I was pretending it's an either-or extreme for emphasis. It's not
that drastic, of course. Naturally, many people *would* buy an ugly $50
adapter plate if they thought it would work just as well as a $500
adapter.
> if one wanted to go the generic adapter route with reasonable
> appearance, it would be possible to not drill *any* holes all
> the way through, but instead only have pilot holes for a variety
> of bellhousings drilled partially through _from_the_tranny_side_.
I like this idea! In these days of CNC milling machines, it shouldn't be
too hard or expensive to produce such an adapter. It hardly matters if
there is 1 or 100 holes. I can imagine a plate covered with 1/8" holes
drilled partway thru, that comes with a paper template showing you which
holes to finish drilling and to what sizes for your particular adapter.
> If the end user wants that 'custom' look, they could trace out the
> shape of their bellhousing on the plate after mating them, and then
> remove the plate and use a jig saw to trim the adapter as desired.
Yes.
> Some interesting ideas have come out of this thread; keep 'em coming!
I agree!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IIRC the Blue Tops have a better warranty also.
> The blue tops and yellow tops are identical, other than the BTs having
> the additional stud terminals. Always ensure that the Optima you buy
> for EV use has a light grey case; the dark grey case is used on their
> SLI versions while the light grey is used on the deep cycle versions.
>
> I have heard of better prices on the BTs, and the stud terminals would
> be handy for attaching regs or BMS, etc. independantly of the high
> current traction wiring.
>
> FWIW, if I replace my YTs with more Optimas, I will be going for BTs.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting idea. Nice work (ok, given who you are, that's kind of a duh!).
Why the generator head? Regen or a really big rotary inverter?
> I was able to post some pictures of the flywheel
> install to my website. The whole process was really
> simple, cheap and universal. To modify the flywheel,
> weld in the adapter, and drill the pilot hole in the
> motor shaft, cut out the adapter plate, and put the
> whole thing together took less than 4 hours.
>
> The stuff can be found here.
> http://reverendgadget.com/subpage.html
>
> Gadget
>
> visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe Gone Postal is now uses a Triple Chain per side, though I
think that both sides are also linked, anyway, there are photos here:
http://www.suckamps.com/index.php?page=postal_van_rebuild_photos
I think the Pros are cheap, strong, easy, tried and true.
I think the Cons are high noise levels and more maintainance issues.
L8r
Ryan
John Foster wrote:
What sort of set-ups have people used for dual motor rear wheel direct
chain drives on conversions? Does any one have photos on the web? What
are the pros and cons?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Lee Hart wrote:
When everything is right, you should be able to pull over 500 amps
from a fully charged 8v battery without its voltage sagging to 7v
(1.75v/cell).
I'll have to try that tomorrow and report back. I'm pretty sure they're
going to fall below 1.75 volts/cell, but the test is a good excuse to
see how the Jeep performs with 500 battery amps
It could be that your pack just isn't broken in yet. That's not many
cycles.
How many cycles should it take to break the pack in?
Or, you may have a "lemon" in the string, whose voltage sags much
more than the rest.
So far I haven't been able to prove that any one battery is bad...
Or, you may have wimpy, high-resistance interconnects between
batteries. You aren't using that 5/16" stud and ring terminals, are
you?
No, I've got standard automotive posts on my batteries. The cables are
2/0 and I used plated battery lugs from Waytek Wire. I crimped them on
with a good hex crimper. So I believe they are making a good connection.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Either that, or they are cold.
No, lately it has been rather hot in south Texas ;-). But I know what
you mean about the cold affecting them. During this past winter I had to
charge them immediately before going on longer trips so the batteries
would warm up a bit and I wouldn't get terrible range.
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have used dual gilmer belts. Gates Polychain GT, for a school car. They
work on Harleys and spares should be plentiful if you pick a "Harley"
size. You need to tweak the center to center distance in winter if it
gets really cold, or use a tensioner. It is a coefficient of thermal
expansion mismatch with a Kevlar belt versus metal frame. People
usually don't ride Harleys at -10F so it isn't a problem.
Seth
Seth
On Mar 25, 2005, at 1:25 PM, John Foster wrote:
What sort of set-ups have people used for dual motor rear wheel direct
chain drives on conversions? Does any one have photos on the web? What
are the pros and cons?
Thanks,
John
John Foster
VEVA
Dynasty Electric Car Co
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah! I forgot to put that in the description. That's my
$300 dollar regen thingie. The route I need to drive
has a lot of hills so I thought I would try this out.
I'm going to set it up with a PFC20 so that when the
throttle is off, but your foot is still on the pedal
There will be no regen. When you remove your foot,
regen starts. When you start to push on the brake a
sliding pot will crank up the output amps and
eventually the mechanical brakes will do the rest of
the work. I'll set it up so that the main motor
contactor will have to drop out before the generator
contacts pull in. the system will needa little
calibration to work properly, but it should work....
I hope.
Gadget
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Interesting idea. Nice work (ok, given who you are,
> that's kind of a duh!).
>
> Why the generator head? Regen or a really big
> rotary inverter?
>
> > I was able to post some pictures of the flywheel
> > install to my website. The whole process was
> really
> > simple, cheap and universal. To modify the
> flywheel,
> > weld in the adapter, and drill the pilot hole in
> the
> > motor shaft, cut out the adapter plate, and put
> the
> > whole thing together took less than 4 hours.
> >
> > The stuff can be found here.
> > http://reverendgadget.com/subpage.html
> >
> > Gadget
> >
> > visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
> >
> >
>
>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
