EV Digest 4235
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Small regenerative motor question
by Dave Narby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) NEDRA Woodburn Race Sunday, September 4
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Adapter Ideas
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) dead cell repair
by "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Insulating rusty battery rack?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Flooded batteries max current?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Insulating rusty battery rack?
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Insulating rusty battery rack?
by Dave Narby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Adapter machine drawings
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Adapter Ideas
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Insulating rusty battery rack?
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Adapter Ideas
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Adapter plate ideas
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Family EV Kit?
by Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Adapter Ideas
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
New to the group, had a quick question (don't go digging for this one on
my account):
Anybody know a good supplier for small (25-75lb) motor/generators?
Reason I'm asking is that I'm considering a DIY hybrid on my van. I was
thinking to use a spare belt pulley to link to a motor generator with a
small battery pack. There's plenty of space under the hood and a spare
mounting point so it's an easy fit. My reasoning is that if it's
configured to charge when you take your foot off the gas, it will also
create drag on the motor, which will act as regenerative braking. When
you step on the gas, the generator can provide some extra oomph. I
realize that there's a whole lot more to it than that, but this is the
basic idea. Most of the regenerative motors out there are pretty huge
(designed to move the vehicle by themselves).
Not looking for huge gains here, perhaps 5-10mpg (but maybe more around
town, you never know).
Thanks in advance,
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
Get your watt rods ready. Woodburn will be Sunday, September 4 at Woodburn
Raceway in Woodburn Oregon.
We will have the gate and race time posted on the NEDRA site as that
information becomes available.
NEDRA 2005 Racing Season Schedule
April 9
Wicked Watts - Las Vegas
June 11
Power of DC - Hagerstown, Maryland
September 4
Woodburn - Woodburn Oregon
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
Power of DC Racing Coordinator
http://www.powerofdc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Saturn Ion has electric power steering. It only seems to make
a whirring when you're actually turning the wheel. Also, the new
Cobalt is based on the same platform and has the same engine,
so you might find electric P/S there too. Might be worth checking
out a junkyard.
Tim
--------
> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:23:46 +0100
> From: Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
>
> Practically all smaller cars over here now have electric power
> steering. For example, a car I sometimes drive, GM Corsa, has it.
>
> Looks like this:
> http://www.bba-reman.com/vauxhall_corsa_power_steering.htm
> I read that the latest version is speed dependant and assist drops off
> as speed increases.
>
> This company seems to offer a stand-alone system:
> http://www.wiringlooms.com/electronic_steering.html
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The mounting holes are not critical, just the 2 doweled holes relative
to the transmission centerline, but when you have it up on the fixure
and you are putting in the on location pattern , might as well put in
the rest of the holes. I won't know if multiple transmission patterns
can fit on one plate until I collect dimensions from a bunch. kinda a
chicken or egg problem :-(
It would be odd to have an adapter plate that had a chevy, a ford , and
a chrysler pattern of different size motors, just because that is what
missed eachothers locating holes.
James, are you thinking of not using locating dowels? , the nissan has
tubular dowels with 2 of the tranny bolts located there. one into the
motor, one into the transmission.
I am trying for these features in my adapters
tranny mount to frame on doweled plate that allows motor change
without removing tranny or vica-versa for a ICE mechanic with standard
tools, ie pull tranny from bottom while on lift.
-or-
Mock-block unit that motor mounts into that mounts to OEM motor mounts
Both units have a flat place where a person could mount a shelf or
deck for controllers or batteries , the controller shelf will be
available out of aluminum diamond plate and will come with isolation mounts.
tools needed: standard mecahnics tools, no tapping,cutting, welding
These kits are not for me, they are for general populus.
Better than the aluminum shop go to the guys that cut granit counter
tops in your city
It is faster and probably cheaper. A band saw large enough to have a
deep enough throat to reach has at least a 3/8 or 1/2" blade, man those
don't turn easy.
Plasma cutter would be sweet, i haven't looked into the cost relative to
water-jet
some sketches of this idea is on http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com
the last waterjet picture shows the entrance/exit of the cut it is great
at the top but leaves a bump at the bottom, not too bad. the rest has a
surface like fine sand-paper they claim accuracy of .005 and
repeatability of .002 . I think you would pay extra in a slow feedrate
to achieve that and would require a fairly new nozzle on the machine.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ABSOLUTELY always connect the ground of the electrical outlet to the car
chassis. It's the only safe way to charge a vehicle and it's the law.
Speaking of the law of safety, ABSOLUTELY never use a non isolated
charger like a PFC brand, without a GFCI. That's the law too, and
absence of a GFCI can lead to death.
That's why the Russco Charger has a built in GFCI. No company would
ever manufacture a non isolated charger without a built in GFCI. Or,
would they?
Russ Kaufmann
RUSSCO Engineering
The other PFC charger with a GFCI.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Sounds dangerous to me! Imagine a PFC charger. Imagine it's + and -
hooked up to the battery pack. That's it! Nice and safe and
ISOLATED.
Why in the world would you want a high voltage ground be connected to
the car body? It's like making an electric chair using a car body...
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:21:11 -0500, Philip Marino
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I always thought that the charger cable grounded the car body ( earth
ground).
Is this usually true? It certainly seems like a good idea to me and would
solve your problem ( one way or another). I plan to set mine up that way.
Any reason not to?
Phil
From: Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: EV LIST <[email protected]>
Subject: Charger Shock
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:13:00 -0500
Hi,
I was recently charging my EV when I went to touch the metal door knob of
the car and got shocked. So I tried placing one needle of the multimeter on
the metal part and the other needle on ground, and it gave a reading of 30
volts. This is not my full pack voltage (90 volts), the GFCI on the charger
appears to be working (brand new), and the car doesn't give a shock when
the charger stops operating. I am not sure if this is dangerous or not, but
it certainly is unpleasant. Does anybody have any ideas?
Thanks,
Mike Ferro
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks James, just what I was looking for, I often thought that I may be able
to wash out the shorting mud on the problem cell, will try your
recommendations, I do have a hygrometer and volt meter.
Thanks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim wrote:
> The Saturn Ion has electric power steering. It only seems to make
> a whirring when you're actually turning the wheel.
Power steering is mysterious. Wouldn't it be possible to have a
situation where the tie rods were adjusted in such a way that the
wheels point straight,but one of tie rods was adjusted in a lot and
the other out a lot for that to be. The effect being that because of
the way the internals of the steering rack are, the pump runs all the
time thinking the wheels are being turned?
Or not... Is the power steering pump a "wobble" type pump in which it
always, always pumps the same amount of volume/pressure and never more
because of it's design and the rack has a bypass? Maybe this is only
true for older belt driven types?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> When I convert my ICE car over to electric, I am planning on
> rewiring the car and not using the body for a common ground.
>
> Wire it like this:
>
> Battery pack -> Controller -> Motor
>
> Battery pack -> 12v DC/DC -> Fuse panel -> (LED lights, horn,
> meters/gauges, etc)
>
> Battery pack -> PFC charger
Pretty much all modern cars use the vehicle chassis as the negative
return for the 12V wiring. If you rewire the car completely, including
perhaps replacing a bunch of the light sockets, etc. that are designed
to make the ground connection via the chassis.
It is standard practice not to connect the chassis to the traction pack
negative, however, dirt, etc. can result in leakage paths from the
traction pack to the chassis.
When you are charging, expecially with a NON-ISOLATED charger like one
of the Mazanita Micro PFC models, you can then end up with the vehicle
chassis connected to the hot side of the AC line.
> I'll let the 3rd prong plugged into the wall outlet handle
> any AC grounding "needs"..
Which is exactly why you want to ensure it is connected to the vehicle
chassis: so that it can do so.
If you don't connect the AC line 'earth' connection to the chassis then
when (not if) your EV develops a leakage path to the chassis you will
most likely find out about it only after someone touches the chassis and
completes the path to ground. Hopefully it will not be a fatal shock,
and hopefully it will not be a child or other innocent bystander who
contacts the car while it is charging in a public place.
With the chassis 'earthed' anytime you plug in the EV, you are ensuring
that when a leakage path forms to the chassis, your GFCI (you are using
one, right?) will trip and alert you to the problem before it becomes a
potentially fatal situation.
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
russco wrote:
> ABSOLUTELY always connect the ground of the electrical outlet to the car
> chassis. It's the only safe way to charge a vehicle and it's the law.
I fail to see how wiring the charger up to the car body makes it
"safe". Imagine this: Battery pack installed in the car. The PFC
charger is sitting on the ground and wired to the pack. It's plugged
into the wall using a 3 prong plug.
How is the situation not safe? I like the thought of the charger
being a self contained unit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The chassis of the car is wired through a green wire to the house panel
ground (through the charger power cord), which is connected to a ground
rod by the service entrance panel. If the car chassis becomes "hot" as
in a battery connection hitting the chassis, the circuit breaker will
trip, shutting off the power.
Since the car chassis is at ground, via the green wire, a person
touching the car chassis and standing on the ground will have no
potential across their body, thus no shock hazard.
For more information on grounding and shock prevention, read the latest
edition of the "National Electrical Code."
Installation instructions for the charger you are using should outline
proper vehicle grounding.
Russ Kaufmann, RUSSCO
Ryan Stotts wrote:
russco wrote:
ABSOLUTELY always connect the ground of the electrical outlet to the car
chassis. It's the only safe way to charge a vehicle and it's the law.
I fail to see how wiring the charger up to the car body makes it
"safe". Imagine this: Battery pack installed in the car. The PFC
charger is sitting on the ground and wired to the pack. It's plugged
into the wall using a 3 prong plug.
How is the situation not safe? I like the thought of the charger
being a self contained unit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Take you battery rack to the place where they spray on bed liners. We have a
place, that does custom fiberglass, which can sand blast, and coat any surface
with any color from a smooth to a rough like bed liner surface.
You can get this stuff from a auto parts store, of which you can spray on your
self, which I think is too thin of a coating. Will take a lot of spray cans of
$10.00 each to get even a 1/16 inch thickness.
You could go to a hardware store and pick up one of those recoating kits for
sinks and tubs. This is what I did when I coated by battery boxes with a gloss
epoxy enamel. It still looks great after four years and it isolated my
batteries from the frame of the car.
Also, I have all my battery charger, contactors, circuit breakers, and fuses in
another compartment which is also isolated from the car body.
I do not have any current flow or conductance to the frame of the car body.
Its like having all these components off board.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: W Bryan Andrews<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 11:06 AM
Subject: Insulating rusty battery rack?
It seems that I'm having to clean my battery tops more than most people
on my standard ElectroAutomotive rabbit conversion. I'm betting it has
something to do with the corroded battery racks providing a path to ground.
Is wrapping the racks in heatshrink tubing going to get the job done?
Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Bryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Mike Chancey wrote:
I made up a 10 foot extension for my multi meter with two large
alligator clips on the end, then selected one suspect battery and
measure its voltage while accelerating hard. I then repeated this
with every other battery
I did this test today, as Mike describes, which took some time to go
through and test all 20 batteries. My results aren't looking good at all.
I have three batteries which under 300-350 amp loads fall to 6 volts
(one just a bit under). Plus, every other battery in the pack (17 of
them), when put under the same 300-350 amp load, all fell to between 6
and 6.5 volts. So not a single one of my batteries stayed near or above
7 volts (1.75 volts/cell) under this load. When these tests were done,
the temperature was 75 degrees at the batteries. Also, the batteries
were not fully charged.
Mike Chancey wrote:
Nick are you sure the sag is even?
Yes, the numbers show it is pretty even sag across all the batteries.
Evan Tuer wrote:
According to what you've posted before, you murdered the pack rather
early on!
Yes, you've said this several times. I'm only persisting with this pack
because I don't have the money for a new one yet ;-).
Evan Tuer wrote:
You will soon see what is going on - whether the whole pack is
sulphated and sagging
If it is sulphated, is there an easy way to desulphate it? Is that what
cycling it 5-10 times like you mentioned is suppose to do?
If the whole pack seems to be doing the same thing, then first check
that you are charging it properly
I'm fairly convinced now that these batteries have been chronically
under charged. I've now got an ammeter I can put in the charger output
line, and I think it will confirm my suspicions that my PFC charger's
timer has been stopping way to soon. I'll post in a new message about
this once I have a little more data...
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did you think of trying Rino Coating? We used it on some trucks at work,
TUFF STUFF.
Mike G.
W Bryan Andrews wrote:
It seems that I'm having to clean my battery tops more than most people
on my standard ElectroAutomotive rabbit conversion. I'm betting it has
something to do with the corroded battery racks providing a path to ground.
Is wrapping the racks in heatshrink tubing going to get the job done?
Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Bryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Google is TAKING OVER THE WORLD... And I LIKE it!
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=62723
I also saw an ad for a "roll on" bedliner that you needed to mix two
cans together similar to epoxy. I have a feeling that would be a good
choice as well.
Be sure to pick up a gallon of acetone, you can use what's left over in
your gas (4 oz for 10gal, no more!) for a 10%MPG boost when you're not
driving your volt-bucket.
Best,
Dave
M.G. wrote:
Did you think of trying Rino Coating? We used it on some trucks at
work, TUFF STUFF.
Mike G.
W Bryan Andrews wrote:
It seems that I'm having to clean my battery tops more than most people
on my standard ElectroAutomotive rabbit conversion. I'm betting it has
something to do with the corroded battery racks providing a path to
ground.
Is wrapping the racks in heatshrink tubing going to get the job done?
Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Bryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Ward wrote:
Does anyone offer machine drawings for various transmission
adaptors? The idea being of course to get one made up by a machinist
friend.
Most of the EV and custom engine adapter companies consider the plate
designs to be their IP. The upfront costs to design the first plate are
high, so you must amortize them over the next few. There is always a
risk that a particular design will never sell enough units to pay off
the initial costs. Selling the designs instead of the finished plates
might deny you the profit of copies made off a single paid set of
plans. (The machining is easy, the measurement and design is hard)
The EV adapter plates are pretty reasonably priced. It is difficult to
get a profession machinist to make up a plate for less, even with the
plans in hand.
The exception to this is where a hobbyist designs the first plate.
Perhaps they were unwilling to wait for the EV company, or had an
unusual design. For the hobbyist the plate is a sunk costs, so placing
it into the public domain and making it available to other hobbyists
doesn't costs, and benefits the community.
Once again, I would be happy to hosts a community site of designs. If
anyone has a a plate design, or a collection of measurements, no matter
how ugly I can probably make drawings and post them to the site. You
can license the design under some form of creative commons
(http://creativecommons.org) if you would like to retain copyright to
your work.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:53 PM 28/03/05 -0800, Jeff Shanab wrote:
The mounting holes are not critical, just the 2 doweled holes relative to
the transmission centerline, but when you have it up on the fixure and you
are putting in the on location pattern , might as well put in the rest of
the holes.
Agreed, I had forgotton about the doweled holes. It's been two years since
I had my plate made.
I won't know if multiple transmission patterns can fit on one plate until
I collect dimensions from a bunch. kinda a chicken or egg problem :-(
There is that!
It would be odd to have an adapter plate that had a chevy, a ford , and a
chrysler pattern of different size motors, just because that is what
missed each others locating holes.
I understand this, that the pilot hole idea may not work because two sets
of holes may not be far enough off co-location to be drill-able.
James, are you thinking of not using locating dowels? , the nissan has
tubular dowels with 2 of the tranny bolts located there. one into the
motor, one into the transmission.
Yes, my Daihatsu uses the same arrangement. I have an additional thing, in
that the rear of the motor (front of the bell-housing) unbolted from the
block. Since the rear oil seal of the crankshaft was resident in this, I
had a 'true' center to line up on. I had a new end plate made for the
motor, that adapted this part to the motor. The plate that I had made
started as a flat plate with a big hole in it, that I had an aluminium boss
welded into. This was machined to be a match to the bell housing part,
using plain-shank bolts as alignment dowels. The motor bearing mount was
then machined into the boss, trued off the old oil seal. the plate was
seperated from the bell housing part, and the inside (motor side) machined
to match the motor. Vent holes for the blower outlet were bored into the
motor end, and the inside of the bell housing part bored out until it
cleared the clutch plate mount (flywheel). The big hole is needed in order
to be able to fit the 'flywheel' to the motor, then the bell housing part.
The end result is that my gearbox is removeable conventionally. I would
expect that any future conversions that I do would be done in such a way as
to ensure that the gearbox (if used) would be conventionally removeable, too.
I am trying for these features in my adapters
tranny mount to frame on doweled plate that allows motor change without
removing tranny or vica-versa for a ICE mechanic with standard tools, ie
pull tranny from bottom while on lift.
-or-
Mock-block unit that motor mounts into that mounts to OEM motor mounts
I assume that this is what the bars alongside the motor are for on the
sketches on your web page?
Here is another thought, if there is enough length available in the donor
vehicle (since I think this would end up longer than a conventional
adaptor): Get a stuffed engine block from a 'wreckers' and have it cut
through one cylinder (or so) back from the flywheel end. It may be possible
to have the cut face machined to sufficiently match the motor 'front',
alternatively have a piece machined that has face-locating steps in it to
bolt to the motor, then bolt to the block part. A piece (maybe from a
stuffed crank) is put in between the motor and the flywheel position,
probably machined to take a conventional bearing in place of the (typical)
white-metal bearing at the back of the block. Then it would be *exactly*
what the gearbox requires to mate to. The biggest down-side (apart from the
amount of work) is if you cut a casting it will relieve the stresses and
may warp too much.
Both units have a flat place where a person could mount a shelf or deck
for controllers or batteries , the controller shelf will be available out
of aluminum diamond plate and will come with isolation mounts.
I don't think that mounting stuff directly to the motor is a good idea -
there can be a lot of road shock that ends up as torsional shock on the
motor. Others may have a better understanding of this than I do, but as
little as possible will be mounted to the motor in my vegicle (just a cage
around the terminals).
tools needed: standard mecahnics tools, no tapping,cutting, welding
These kits are not for me, they are for general populus.
Accepted that this is a very good concept. A motor mount that picks up the
OEM engine mounts is a good thing for that target customer, too.
Plasma cutter would be sweet, i haven't looked into the cost relative to
water-jet
You want sweet? Laser cutting! accurate to much better than 0.1mm, have
bolt holes and all done. I don't know what they charge where you guys are,
but here it's relatively cheap. If they can do the plate thickness, a
single flat adaptor plate would probably be cut for under $100 (aus, about
$70US). Each plate after that in a run would be about half price.
I had a set of 4 disks cut recently for a job to mount target magnets in,
that had lined up bolt holes and all sorts of relationships. between 8 and
32 holes in each plate, depending on the plate's job (mount, spacers,
magnet carrier). Laser cut for less than an employees' wages for half a
day, and spot-on accurate.
Here is another idea: have a machined plate that adapts to the motor, with
a C-face type step that accepts a second part that has been laser cut that
matches the transmission. That way a cost saving for bulk orders may be
achievable. Need a different adaptor? Email the cad drawing to the laser
cutters and have it in 5 to 10 days, bolt it to the generic center. This
idea may have much more merit than all the rest that have rattled out of my
brain recently.
Still stirring the pot...
Regards
James.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about using POR15 on the rack?
I will say that after using POR15 for the winter on the Elec-trak
snowblower (and blowing snow, wood chips and some serious dirt once)
there is not a *scratch* in the paint in the chute.
Very very tough stuff.
Chris
Dave Narby wrote:
Google is TAKING OVER THE WORLD... And I LIKE it!
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=62723
I also saw an ad for a "roll on" bedliner that you needed to mix two
cans together similar to epoxy. I have a feeling that would be a good
choice as well.
Be sure to pick up a gallon of acetone, you can use what's left over in
your gas (4 oz for 10gal, no more!) for a 10%MPG boost when you're not
driving your volt-bucket.
Best,
Dave
M.G. wrote:
Did you think of trying Rino Coating? We used it on some trucks at
work, TUFF STUFF.
Mike G.
W Bryan Andrews wrote:
It seems that I'm having to clean my battery tops more than most people
on my standard ElectroAutomotive rabbit conversion. I'm betting it has
something to do with the corroded battery racks providing a path to
ground.
Is wrapping the racks in heatshrink tubing going to get the job done?
Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Bryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Better than the aluminum shop go to the guys that cut granit counter tops
in your city
It is faster and probably cheaper. A band saw large enough to have a deep
enough throat to reach has at least a 3/8 or 1/2" blade, man those don't
turn easy.
All you need is enough bandsaw throat depth to cut off the waste around the
edge of the adapter. Unless you're starting out with a huge piece of stock,
that will only be a few inches at most.
Also, if you get the right blade, you can easily cut 1/2 inch aluminum with
any scroll saw. ( no throat depth to worry about). I made an
aluminum-cutting scroll saw blade out of a piece of broken 1/8 wide, fine
tooth (12 tpi or so) band saw blade - works great, even with my cheapy 15
inch Delta.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I may be nieve but I have recently come to a new perspective, it was
what started my other post about the american buisness model being wrong.
Roger said "
The problem is that there aren't that many conversions being done,"
And there won't be if I choose the 5 most popular also.
I don't want to make a chevy s10 adapter, it is already done. If the
market was 10 per year and I do as good as the other manufacturer, we
each sell 5. diluting the market. We each sell 5. But if I make for a
differnt model, they sell their 10 and maybe it takes a while but so do
I, now the market has grown to 20 conversions, I know, this is on the
assumption there are more people wanting to do conversions than are
willing to settle on the most popular model.
The better situation is I make 20 and so does the other guy, we share
designs and develop common parts and I ship 10 of my 20 to the other guy
as trade for 10 of his. Now we each have qty 20 pricing and 20 adapters
but 2 models, now you come along and pick yet a differnt model , we each
make 30 and cross share and we have an instand 30% reduction in costs
because we broke the qty 25 price point, uh that is 10 adapters free!
When I needed a plug for my alternator, i went to or called 20 stores in
town, ALL of them had the same 2 models, the "most popular" None of them
made a sale that day, I ordered from the internet. They diluted
themselfs out of the market, next year they will decide there is no
profit in a few connectors a year and will stop caring them. These
stores compete for only the most popular and try to share that, they all
would make more money if one specialized in imports, another in
domestic, yet another in newer cars. etc.
On depth, I meant from the edge of the plate to the holes, the adapter I
had required more than one setup to reach accros the pattern on a mill.
I see where you are coming from, i just do't want to make the cheapest
and the same as everyone else, I would have nothing to offer.
I also want to develop a way to break out of the "made to order
mindset" The bell for the motor I am having made CNC now is designed to
be replaced with a alum-mag dia casting when quantities warent it.
The 2 ways of looking at this are how many do you think you can sell a
month and what price/unit do I need to get to to sell 10/month (various
models)
I actually got your most recent message after I sent my replies, digest
mode. I agree with you 100% on which holes are and which holes arent
critical.
and a good point about the tranny and the bulky ICE, I was thinking like
a shade tree mechanic. and I havent even thought about the front wheel
drive ones yet.
I don't know if it is cost effective, but i think it would be great to
have an adapter that works without question or modification right out of
the box, like the traditional "bold on" performance mods. I wan't people
who see my EV's and kits to say "I can do that" (the next words I want
out of their mouth is "how much" )
"So let me get this straight: you want to make a slick adapter that is
cheaper than those presently available, but still vehicle-specific, and
after shelling out a couple hundred bucks for your adapter, I then have
to go on E-Bay to buy myself a ~used~ racing clutch (even if I don't
need the torque capability), and then pay another $100 (2/3 of $160) to
get new disks made to adapt it to my tranny, and then there is still the
issue of having to pick up a SBC flywheel and get some sort of custom
throwout bearing arrangement fabricated?"
Like I said, the clutch is the most controversial. but I am not without my
reasons
1. "don't need the torque capability"? how many clutch problems on this list.
2. how many upgrading to a zilla 2k, even 1K would use a stock clutch?
3. the racing clutch weather tilton,quartermaster, or a couple of other
brands, is a standard and could be reproduced if necassary
I am calling tilton and seeing if they may consider OEM style deals
4. At the moment I can get all the clutches, there are lots since the racers have
changed to internal or 4.5" 3-4plates the 300 I spent was everthing, including
the button flywheel
5. The product of inertia was 1/10 of stock, 1/10! I don't want people
complaining about shifting and giving EV's a bad rep.
I already solved my throwout bearing but have considered going from 3 plate 5.5 to
7" 2 plate to reduce clutch height so only a radius contact bearing $39 retail
is needed; and they are cheaper. It is NOT possible to just space the tranny back
furthor, the first clutch disk runs out of spline!
Again, roger, thanks for helping me brainstorm this out, other people are invited to chime in on what they want or think customers might like to see in adapters and kits.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I am posting this to the EVDL and the EVProduction list.
I would like to work with others to develop a lightweight family EV conversion
kit that could be used in several compact front-wheel-drive vehicles. The goal
would be to use only custom transaxle adapters and body mounts for each model
run. Very crude sketches are posted at:
http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/kit_assy.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/kit_parts.jpg
In order to safely transport a family of four, enough payload needs to be
preserved while not jeopardizing crashworthiness. Without in-depth development
and testing, my approach has been to only fill the ICE motor and fuel tank
areas with EV components, and add less than 150 pounds. This should maintain
at least 700 pounds of payload without suspension modifications.
Such a kit would need to utilize a battery with at least as much combined
specific power and energy as Valence's 300A peak U1 format, and be just as
thermally stable. 22 Valence modules and high performance DC conversion
components would cost over $20K just for parts, and would only go ~50 miles
with ~80 peak HP to the shafts. But I believe it will meet my fundamental
requirements; and the safety, simplicity and cycle life justify the cost for me
-- even at these high early production prices, at least for a prototype.
My primary goal is to help and get help from fellow EAA members who have
similar needs. But if a business could be made of it, that would be fun -- as
long as the spirit remained "open source".
Considering this would be my first conversion, does anyone have any advice?
(I'm a test engineer and do have some automotive restoration and bicycle
fabrication experience.)
Is anyone interested in working in a group on something like this?
Thank you,
Chris Jones
Santa Rosa, CA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:52:56 -0600
Sounds dangerous to me! Imagine a PFC charger. Imagine it's + and -
hooked up to the battery pack. That's it! Nice and safe and
ISOLATED.
Why in the world would you want a high voltage ground be connected to
the car body? It's like making an electric chair using a car body...
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:21:11 -0500, Philip Marino
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I always thought that the charger cable grounded the car body ( earth
> ground).
>
> Is this usually true? It certainly seems like a good idea to me and
would
> solve your problem ( one way or another). I plan to set mine up that
way.
> Any reason not to?
>
> Phil
Of course you wouldn't connect the charger output to the body. That's why I
said " earth ground" ( a third conductor in the charger cable)
How is connecting earth ground to the body dangerous??
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a hazardous situation!
For years I've had a concern that someday an EV hobbyist is going to have
his car charging in the driveway when the 5 year old kid next door wanders
over, trips on something, leans on the car to get his balance, and either is
electrocuted or jumps away and hits his head on something.
I've been saying for years that a GFI *is not enough* while others argued
that it was plenty. This is more evidence in favor of that view. In this
case Mike says the system is fitted with one, and he's getting shocked.
Mike, PLEASE unplug that charger NOW and don't use it again until you figure
out what's going on. I sure hope you don't have any neighbors or kids in
your family.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Imagine a PFC charger. Imagine it's + and -
> hooked up to the battery pack. That's it! Nice and safe and
> ISOLATED.
If you're talking about Rich's PFC chargers, they are NOT isolated from the
power line. I believe he now offers them with isolating transformers as an
option, but last I heard he hadn't sold any. I guess most EV hobbyists are
too cheap to pay for greater safety.
Zivan, Brusa, and Solectria chargers are isolated, without exception. So
are all (or nearly all) the boat-anchor commercial EV charges from such
companies as Lester and American Monarch. I believe that Electrocraft and
Delta-Q are isolated too, and I seem to recall that either K&W or Russco
makes one isolated model. Yes, they cost more. How much is a kid's life
worth? For that matter, if you're managing an industrial plant that uses
forklifts and burden carriers, do you want to be the one who calls the
electrocuted worker's spouse with the bad news?
I'm afraid that someone will have to be electrocuted or badly injured before
EV hobbyists begin employing more safeguards against electric shock. If
someone does die, not only will the EV owner have that on his conscience,
the EV opponents will have a field day and we may find state and federal
laws passed that limit what we can use for charging, or possibly even outlaw
conversion EVs.
"Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> With the chassis 'earthed' anytime you plug in the EV, you are
> ensuring that when a leakage path forms to the chassis, your GFCI
> (you are using one, right?) will trip and alert you to the problem
> before it becomes a potentially fatal situation.
FYI, a ground is *not* required for a GFI to catch a potential shock. It's
supposed to detect any ground fault current sufficient to cause a shock. It
appears that the GFI here is simply not doing its job.
True, a dead short to chassis will trip the breaker, but the breaker is
really no protection. Fault current that can trip a breaker is hundreds of
times the amount needed to kill a person.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
could be , If there is a place where you have current leaking to ground ,
you will have more current flowing with the steel frame well grounded , .
carbon form the motor brushes , dirt between battery post and frame , .
---- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 4:21 PM
Subject: RE: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
I always thought that the charger cable grounded the car body ( earth
ground).
Is this usually true? It certainly seems like a good idea to me and would
solve your problem ( one way or another). I plan to set mine up that way.
Any reason not to?
Phil
From: Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: EV LIST <[email protected]>
Subject: Charger Shock
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:13:00 -0500
Hi,
I was recently charging my EV when I went to touch the metal door knob of
the car and got shocked. So I tried placing one needle of the multimeter
on the metal part and the other needle on ground, and it gave a reading of
30 volts. This is not my full pack voltage (90 volts), the GFCI on the
charger appears to be working (brand new), and the car doesn't give a
shock when the charger stops operating. I am not sure if this is dangerous
or not, but it certainly is unpleasent. Does anybody have any ideas?
Thanks,
Mike Ferro
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:29 PM -0500 on 3/28/05, Philip Marino wrote:
All you need is enough bandsaw throat depth to cut off the waste
around the edge of the adapter. Unless you're starting out with a
huge piece of stock, that will only be a few inches at most.
Also, if you get the right blade, you can easily cut 1/2 inch
aluminum with any scroll saw. ( no throat depth to worry about). I
made an aluminum-cutting scroll saw blade out of a piece of broken
1/8 wide, fine tooth (12 tpi or so) band saw blade - works great,
even with my cheapy 15 inch Delta.
When I made my adapter, I used a band saw with a wood-cutting blade.
I tried with metal-cutting blades and they would fail in very short
order. The wood blade lasted the entire project.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
