EV Digest 4234
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: MR2 pump
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Espirit Costing....
by David Navas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Berkeley EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Tour de Sol Prizes Announced
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: MR2 pump - torque sensor?
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Insulating rusty battery rack?
by W Bryan Andrews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) dead cell repair
by "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: MR2 pump - torque sensor?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: MR2 pump
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Charger Shock
by Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Phoenix EV's at the car show.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: MR2 pump - torque sensor?
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: MR2 pump
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: dead cell repair
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Charging dock idea
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Adapter plate ideas
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) If you have batteries where the back seat was
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Adapter costs
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Insulating rusty battery rack?
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don and everyone,
I'm surprised that your MR2 pump is that noisy. Mine is really quiet -
when I first fired it up, I didn't know if it was on or off. What is
yours mounted to?
-Ryan
I got my power steering working this weekend. The Toyota MR2 pump works
great. But it is way too noisy.
Has anyone tried to insulate the noise of these pumps?
Has anyone had any luck with a control circuit to have these on when the
load demands it?
thanks
Don
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Valence http://www.valence-tech.com/markets.asp?market=5 has their
> Saphion and are making the battery in EV sizes
Yes, and they are safe. If you can get enough power out of them.
That's where I would pause and do some calculations. One of the
heavier lotii are going to pork out at ~twice the TZero, so for
the same performance, you're going to need 330kw. Or a gearbox :>
Power, not energy density, may be your gating factor. If you go li-po
or li-ion, and you want a high-power system, I think you need to
consider Kokam, or a build-it-yourself system.
> LG 18650 laptop batteries are used in the tZero but I would not
> consider them safe due to their chemistry with the possiblity of
> a rare thermal runaway.
That's true of nearly every li-ion battery out there, with the
exception of Saphion. The metal-oxide and electrolytes in most
li-ion/poly batteries have lowish runaway temperatures. The
18650s, at least, have built-in "safety" systems, the Kokams are
bare.
> Here is a company that I understand makes the batteries for the
> Apple laptops: http://www.flexion.com/ (I like the nail showing
That's a Vanadium-Oxide cathode and is going to suffer from low
discharge rates. Take a look....
> Sion Power http://www.sionpower.com/ out of Tuscon has acheived,
No shipping batteries, afaik, and it's going to be an
assemble-yourself kind of deal, as the last time I asked they were
targetting 18650-sized 2.2Ahr cells. Good to keep your eyes on the
future. There are others along that vein -- polyplus. I read an
article a little while ago about their lithium air cell with over
a kwh per kg energy densities. I'm assuming discharge rates are
an issue. Doesn't matter, because we can't buy it -- focus on the
companies that are selling their cells :>
> What would a good AC based system with BMS cost? What would
> it cost using DC? Again, this is for a performance package.
I think you want to go with a double-9 or a 13" Warp, unless
Raser actually sells that 500hp monster they're showing off in
Monaco. I sent them a "name your price" email, and have gotten no
response, so don't hold your breath. Better people than myself on this
list to advise you on motors at anyrate.
> At this point the fellow needs good cost figures to be included
> with the grant. I can provide a decent ball park figure for a
> lead acid based system but I'm not so sure for a Lithium based
> system.
I can help some -- my wife has written several grants for the
neighborhood school, so I understand the requirements. I've had some
minimal contact with the folks at EnerDel regarding their
li-po battery. I haven't gotten as far as safety and charge
profiles, but their datasheets show a midrange cell doing 2+kw/kg,
and their high end doing 3kw/kg. That's more power dense than the
Kokam -- though I suspect that that kind of discharge rate taxes
the system. Energy densities are roughly equivalent to Kokam.
Battery sizes are smaller, so there is much more assembly required.
Batteries are worse than the Kokam price-wise. If $4000/kwh doesn't
scare the bejeesus out of your guy, have him contact me. The
batteries are roughly half the cost, the other half is the cost to
engineer the system. If we can bootstrap them into delivering a
higher-power "standard" sized pack, maybe we can deliver a more
reasonably priced pack for other folks. Personally, I consider
$2k/kwh four times my internal target price, and about twice what a
performance nut might pay for. Enerdel needs >26Mwh orders to get to the
$600/kwh price, but "only" about 260kwh for a $1200/kwh pricetag. So,
if we can find another ~8 nut-jobs.... :> :> :>
-Dave
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wasn't someone on the EVDL already converting one of these? Looks like a nice,
lightweight candidate, but this one needs a bit of restoring, too:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4538942752
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On behalf of Nancy Hazard for the Tour de Sol ...
===============================================================================
Dear friends of the Tour de Sol:
CASH PRIZES:
$5,000 in prizes for Tour de Sol Championship
$10,000 for Monte Carlo Style Rally -
with $5,000 for the most fuel efficient production vehicle
that breaks the 100mpg barrier!
DEADLINES:
April 1 is the deadline for Tour de Sol Championship registration.
April 15 is the early registration deadline for the E-bike & Monte
Carlo-style Rally
Please go to www.TourdeSol.org for registration fees and forms, and see below.
There are three ways to register and participate in the May 13-16, 2005 Tour de
Sol:
<> Tour de Sol Championship - 4-day event for Prototype and Production Vehicles
<> Monte Carlo-style Rally - 1-2 day event for advanced vehicle owners
<> E-bike, e-scooter, and NEV events - 2-day event for hobbyists and
manufacturers
Each event listed above has its own registration form - please visit our web
site at www.TourdeSol.org. On our web site you will also find detailed
information on registration deadlines, Rules, Regulations, and Awards of these
events.
Organized by the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) our 2005 Tour
de Sol has new exciting competitions, and a wonderful new venue - ideal for a
get-a-way weekend and much more!
Our weekend destination is Saratoga's Spring Auto Show held one of the most
beautiful and historic spas in the United States. The Saratoga Spa State Park
offers 250 landscaped acres, historic buildings with mineral spring baths,
golf, walking and biking trails, the historic Gideon Putnam Hotel, the Saratoga
Performing Arts Center, and our host, the Saratoga Auto Museum.
Following our exciting weekend activities, Tour de Sol participants will
display their vehicles with Clean Cities Stakeholders, in Albany at the New
York Sate capitol, just 35 miles south of Saratoga Springs, and visit with
decision-makers.
Don't miss out! Register today!
If you have questions, email the contacts listed below, or join us for a Q&A
conference call any Thursday at 5:30pm by calling 508-995-6619 code: 523.
Sincerely,
Nancy Hazard
NESEA Executive Director, for the many Tour de Sol volunteers
50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301
PS. NESEA will supply all vehicle numbers this year for Championship, e-bikes,
& Monte Carlo participants. If you have a car, please save a space on each
side of your vehicle for # and event ID: 12"high x 18" wide. E-bikes - you can
cut out the numbers and ID info to fit your bike.
If you have questions, please contact:
Tour de Sol Championship: Pat Skelly: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or call
609-586-6992 day or evening.
Monte Carlo-style Rally: Craig Van Battenburg: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
e-bikes & Scooters: Josh Kerson: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
NEVs & Exhibit: Anissa Sanborn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================================================
--
Mike Bianchi
17th Annual Tour de Sol
May 13-16, 2005 in Saratoga and Albany, NY
Featuring New Events, Competitions, Activities Leading the Way to a
Sustainable Energy and Transportation Future, A Green "Car Show" and More
www.TourDeSol.org
www.Foveal.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is intriguing ... I wonder if there's more than one model of PS pump
for MR2s? I've seen an MR2 pump in use in 2 vehicles (a Ford Ranger Mark
Farver built a few years back, and Nick Viera's Cherokee) and in both
cases the pump was in my opinion the loudest thing in the vehicle. I'm
thinking of using one in my project, but I'd really like it to be on only
when needed.
What I'd like to know is, is there a torque sensor I could place on the
steering column that would give me an acceptable input for a circuit to
control the pump? I'd like it to only come on when I'm cranking harder
than a certain amount. I'm also thinking to have a speed input such that
over 20mph or so, it wouldn't come on at all (to prevent the possibility
of a sudden steering movement at high speed).
--chris
Ryan Bohm said:
> Hi Don and everyone,
>
> I'm surprised that your MR2 pump is that noisy. Mine is really quiet -
> when I first fired it up, I didn't know if it was on or off. What is
> yours mounted to?
>
> -Ryan
>
>>I got my power steering working this weekend. The Toyota MR2 pump works
>>great. But it is way too noisy.
>>
>>Has anyone tried to insulate the noise of these pumps?
>>
>>Has anyone had any luck with a control circuit to have these on when the
>>load demands it?
>>
>>thanks
>>Don
>>
>
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
What kind of noise does it make? On the Prizm mine is a pretty small
little whine, that's it. The brake pump is much louder, in fact the
water pump makes about the same amount of noise.
The whine is load dependant and varies based on the amount of flow
resistance inside the steering rack. The Ranger conversion I did had a
very noticable whir/whine from the pump that varies in frequency and
volume based on steering load and angle. It sound very high tech, but
it doesn't make for a quiet EV. The owner felt the noise was not
objectionable, and gave feedback that the truck was "on".
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems that I'm having to clean my battery tops more than most people
on my standard ElectroAutomotive rabbit conversion. I'm betting it has
something to do with the corroded battery racks providing a path to ground.
Is wrapping the racks in heatshrink tubing going to get the job done?
Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Bryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi again guys, am trying to get the year out of my batteries but am running out
of replacements. I have about 10 old Trojans 125 and US 2200 batteries with one
cell gone on them. Is there any thing that I can try to get the battery usable
to replace a week battery in my present pack of 13? I have about 3 weeks left
in my hockey season and am hoping to be able to hold off from purchasing a new
pack untill next fall so they won't sit all summer.
Some of the batteries have the cell just dead while others have one "stinky"
cell.
Willing to try anything
Ellery
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Robison wrote:
> What I'd like to know is, is there a torque sensor I could place on the
> steering column that would give me an acceptable input for a circuit to
> control the pump?
What kind of vehicle are you converting? Is there a manual rack and
pinion or manual gear box available for it? I have manual steering
and I wouldn't have it any other way.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My pump is mounted on rubber mounts, near the firewall. I have a very quiet
MES pump mounted in the rear so it is not a problem. It defintely sounds
like a PS pump.
Has anyone tried to insulate the noise of these things?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Bohm
Sent: March 28, 2005 8:50 AM
To: EV List
Subject: RE: MR2 pump
Hi Don and everyone,
I'm surprised that your MR2 pump is that noisy. Mine is really quiet - when
I first fired it up, I didn't know if it was on or off. What is yours
mounted to?
-Ryan
>I got my power steering working this weekend. The Toyota MR2 pump
>works great. But it is way too noisy.
>
>Has anyone tried to insulate the noise of these pumps?
>
>Has anyone had any luck with a control circuit to have these on when
>the load demands it?
>
>thanks
>Don
>
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I was recently charging my EV when I went to touch the metal door knob
of the car and got shocked. So I tried placing one needle of the
multimeter on the metal part and the other needle on ground, and it gave
a reading of 30 volts. This is not my full pack voltage (90 volts), the
GFCI on the charger appears to be working (brand new), and the car
doesn't give a shock when the charger stops operating. I am not sure if
this is dangerous or not, but it certainly is unpleasent. Does anybody
have any ideas?
Thanks,
Mike Ferro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whenever somebody gives a link that has some good info on it, I go back to
the main url and see what is there, in this case I found a page of circuits,
some of which could be useful.
Thanks Evan
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/terrypin/indexpersonal.html
Rush
Tucson AZ
converting a '86 Mitsubishi truck
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
>> It sounds like he's using a micro to decide when to switch the pump
> on. Another way to do it would be to use a 555 "re-triggerable"
> circuit, something like this should do it.
> http://www.terrypin.dial.pipex.com/Images/555MonoRetriggerable.gif
> Reduce the timing capacitor so that the on-time is a few seconds only.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also, something that I didn't know, the GM S-10's have a diesel
heater and a 10 gal tank. When they need heat they burn the diesel in a
cermaic heater.
My Electravan has a gas heater. I think I'd like to switch it to propane.
LR........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm converting a 1999 Isuzu Hombre, which is a rebadged bottom-of-the-line
Chevy S-10. I have taken a quick look online and as far as I can tell,
there are no off-the-shelf manual steering systems available, but if
anyone can point me to something, I'd appreciated it.
--chris
Ryan Stotts said:
> Christopher Robison wrote:
>
>> What I'd like to know is, is there a torque sensor I could place on the
>> steering column that would give me an acceptable input for a circuit to
>> control the pump?
>
> What kind of vehicle are you converting? Is there a manual rack and
> pinion or manual gear box available for it? I have manual steering
> and I wouldn't have it any other way.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, my note sounds confusing. Let me try again.
My MR2 power steering pump is mounted on rubber mounts, near the firewall.
My Vacuum pump is a very quiet MES pump mounted in the rear so it is not a
problem. My water pump is a Bosch, and it is quiet as well.
However my MR2 PS pump is noisy like others are saying, I guess Ryan got the
"quiet" one.
I hae installed a momentary foot switch to turn on the pump whenever I want
it on, but I sure would like to have it quieter, as it ruins the experience.
So I will try some insulation and see where that gets me.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: March 28, 2005 10:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: MR2 pump
My pump is mounted on rubber mounts, near the firewall. I have a very quiet
MES pump mounted in the rear so it is not a problem. It defintely sounds
like a PS pump.
Has anyone tried to insulate the noise of these things?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Bohm
Sent: March 28, 2005 8:50 AM
To: EV List
Subject: RE: MR2 pump
Hi Don and everyone,
I'm surprised that your MR2 pump is that noisy. Mine is really quiet - when
I first fired it up, I didn't know if it was on or off. What is yours
mounted to?
-Ryan
>I got my power steering working this weekend. The Toyota MR2 pump
>works great. But it is way too noisy.
>
>Has anyone tried to insulate the noise of these pumps?
>
>Has anyone had any luck with a control circuit to have these on when
>the load demands it?
>
>thanks
>Don
>
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I always thought that the charger cable grounded the car body ( earth
ground).
Is this usually true? It certainly seems like a good idea to me and would
solve your problem ( one way or another). I plan to set mine up that way.
Any reason not to?
Phil
From: Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: EV LIST <[email protected]>
Subject: Charger Shock
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:13:00 -0500
Hi,
I was recently charging my EV when I went to touch the metal door knob of
the car and got shocked. So I tried placing one needle of the multimeter on
the metal part and the other needle on ground, and it gave a reading of 30
volts. This is not my full pack voltage (90 volts), the GFCI on the charger
appears to be working (brand new), and the car doesn't give a shock when
the charger stops operating. I am not sure if this is dangerous or not, but
it certainly is unpleasent. Does anybody have any ideas?
Thanks,
Mike Ferro
_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee�
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:25:57 -0500, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 28 Mar 2005 at 17:18, Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> > Hydraulic power steering though, yuk :(
>
> Has anybody yet tried salvaging the electric power steering from a wrecked
> Prius?
>
Practically all smaller cars over here now have electric power
steering. For example, a car I sometimes drive, GM Corsa, has it.
Looks like this:
http://www.bba-reman.com/vauxhall_corsa_power_steering.htm
I read that the latest version is speed dependant and assist drops off
as speed increases.
This company seems to offer a stand-alone system:
http://www.wiringlooms.com/electronic_steering.html
Personally I think it's a bit of a gimmick on a small car, although
given that EV conversions tend to end up pretty heavy, we should be
grateful that such things are available off the shelf.
If anyone wants to give it a try I could certainly obtain a
power-assisted column from a scrapyard and send it over. It might
even be compatible with US GM cars, who knows...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:42 PM 28/03/05 -0400, Ellery wrote:
Hi again guys, am trying to get the year out of my batteries but am
running out of replacements. I have about 10 old Trojans 125 and US 2200
batteries with one cell gone on them. Is there any thing that I can try to
get the battery usable to replace a week battery in my present pack of
13? I have about 3 weeks left in my hockey season and am hoping to be
able to hold off from purchasing a new pack untill next fall so they won't
sit all summer.
Some of the batteries have the cell just dead while others have one
"stinky" cell.
Willing to try anything
Hi Ellery (and all)
Have you a hygrometer for measuring the acid specific gravity (S.G.)?
The other thing you would really need is a voltmeter (a multimeter) to
measure different voltage ranges.
If the weak cells are down on acid strength, you could try adding acid
instead of distilled water to the cells that are down on strength, need to
overcharge the pack considerably, so the stronger cells will need topping
up with distilled water. Get the acid strength up in all the cells, then
see if you still have a problem cell.
Once all the cells are at full specific gravity, if one cell is going flat
in a few days then you may have a short from 'mud' build-up in the bottom
of the cell. You could try charging the battery with the weak cell, then as
soon as is fully charged, empty the acid out, wash the cells out with
water, rinse with distilled water, then refill either with re-used clean
acid or new acid.
I had reasonable success with a friends traction pack with the 'overcharge
and add acid' method, got full Ah back (at 20 hour rate).
If you can get at the cell interconnects, and you have cells that are just
plain dead, a shorting bar bolted across the cell would allow continued use.
Since this is only a temporary measure, if you can prove the dead cell but
can't get at the interconnects, you could use an angle grinder/etc to
remove the top of the offending cell and get at the interconnect bars.
Simplest way to short a cell is drill and tap the bars then bolt either a
bar or a short cable with lugs across the offender. Wire brush the
interconnect face to get a clean surface to bolt up to.
Make certain that it is near zero volts before you short it, and before
using brushed power tools (or any other ignition source) in the vicinity of
batteries let them sit for two days minimum (about 20 years ago I had a
cell top blown out of a truck battery from a welding spark, acid splashed a
fair way, fortunately it was behind me).
The loss of a few cells out of your string should make an apreciable
improvement over having duff cells in the string.
Hope this helps, and I'm sure others will come in with their experiences.
Regards
James.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not then make larger version of electric toothbrush charger?
(Well, rather charging "port").
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Lee Hart wrote:
Seth Allen wrote:
Anyone have a 20kHz inductive charger/ power coupling/ split
transformer? I need a bunch of 2kW ones for work.
For 2kw it's not hard. I'd use a flyback topology, because they
intrinsically need an air gap in the core, and you can't help but have
at least some air gap when the transformer is split between floor and
vehicle.
The challenges are that flyback transformers radiate noise like a small
sun, and they produce huge voltage spikes due to leakage inductance. So,
you will also need a very good shield around the two transformer halves
that mate together (like two halves of a clamshell) to keep the noise
down. And, you'd need an active "lossless" snubber circuit to recover
the inductive energy -- otherwise your snubber will burn up 10% of the
total energy (200w for a 2000w charger).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds dangerous to me! Imagine a PFC charger. Imagine it's + and -
hooked up to the battery pack. That's it! Nice and safe and
ISOLATED.
Why in the world would you want a high voltage ground be connected to
the car body? It's like making an electric chair using a car body...
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:21:11 -0500, Philip Marino
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I always thought that the charger cable grounded the car body ( earth
> ground).
>
> Is this usually true? It certainly seems like a good idea to me and would
> solve your problem ( one way or another). I plan to set mine up that way.
> Any reason not to?
>
> Phil
>
> >From: Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: EV LIST <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Charger Shock
> >Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:13:00 -0500
> >
> >Hi,
> >I was recently charging my EV when I went to touch the metal door knob of
> >the car and got shocked. So I tried placing one needle of the multimeter on
> >the metal part and the other needle on ground, and it gave a reading of 30
> >volts. This is not my full pack voltage (90 volts), the GFCI on the charger
> >appears to be working (brand new), and the car doesn't give a shock when
> >the charger stops operating. I am not sure if this is dangerous or not, but
> >it certainly is unpleasant. Does anybody have any ideas?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Mike Ferro
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee(r)
> Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >I strongly suspect that adapters are largely built to order
> >because no supplier wants to have thousands of dollars tied
> >up in a stack of adapter plates that he may have to wait
> >years to sell off.
>
> If it costs 1000 for 3 custom built to order but only 1500
> for 10 of each?
Assuming the supplier has the same profit margin either way, I'm just
not sure there is much inncentive for him to tie up his money in
inventory that may take a couple years to clear out.
The problem is that there aren't that many conversions being done, and
they are for all sorts of different vehicles. If I'm going to make $100
selling you an adapter, I'm inclined to have a single one made to order
rather than tie up $1000 of my money speculating that enough others will
order adapters for the same vehicle for me to recoup my investment
relatively soon. $1000 doesn't sound like much, but if customer A
orders an S10 adapter, and customer B orders one for a Geo Metro, and
customer C orders one for a Honda, etc. and I order 10 each time, then
it doesn't take long to have several thousand tied up in stock.
If, however, the adapter plate design supports the 5 most popular
conversion platforms and I can reasonably expect to sell 5 adapters in a
year, then it would make sense for me to order them perhaps 10-20 at a
time to get the cost as low as possible (maximise my profit margin while
still offering the customer a better price than the status quo) while
being reasonably confident that I will recoup my investment within a
year.
> I can't see drilling just before shipment as a normal action,
> that adds a step at the worst possible time and either I pick
I suggest it as a possible value-added service that ~could~ be provided
at an additional cost for those customers who don't want to or can't
drill their own.
> up that pilot or I float the plate and that is not safe, The
> depth of the plate will preclude using a drill press on some
> holes. But if we are not tapping them, Not so bad
The depth of the plate? Typical adapter plates are perhaps 5/8" thick
(maximum), and they are "plates". There is generally then a donut
shaped-spacer that bolts between the motor and adapter plate, and this
may be perhaps up to about 1" thick. Even if your adapter design were
to start with 2" thick aluminum and CNC away to yield this as a single
piece I can't see there being any problem drilling out any of the holes
with a drill press.
There are typically only 2 holes whose location are crucial: the 2 holes
that accept the locating "dowels" (bushings, really). The bolt holes
can be mislocated slightly and/or be slightly oversize without affecting
anything.
It is entirely possible on a generic plate design to drill the 2 bushing
holes for each bellhousing full-size and sufficiently deep that
'anybody' can accurately finish them. Just provide pilot holes for the
rest of the bolt holes, or provide a paper template so the end user can
centerpunch the location of the appropriate bolt holes, or just let the
end user align the plate to the bellhousing using the bushing holes and
dowel pins/bushings and then mark the bolt hole locations himself.
> Use same bolts or I was gonna supply bolts. Personally I
> don't want to have bolts and nuts, it takes someone on both
> sides unless it is on the bench and could interfere with
> something on the other side.
I can assure you from first-hand experience that bolts and nuts are no
problem at all for FWD conversions. I have lost count of the number of
RWD trannies I have R&R'd, and while I agree that in the ICE case
threaded holes on the 'engine' side make sense, I rather suspect this is
much less the case in an EV. In the ICE case access to the bellhousing
bolts is pretty much exclusively from beneath the vehicle (using a long
extension and u-joint) due to the bulk of the ICE. In the EV case, the
motor is typically much smaller than the ICE was and the bellhousing
bolts/nuts are all readily accessible/visible. Of course, if the engine
bay is stuffed with batteries, etc. then access from the motor side
could be nearly as bad as the ICE case.
I don't see installation/removal taking two people in any case; once the
input shaft engages the clutch disk and pilot bearing, and the alignment
dowels engage the adapter plate, the installer has plenty of time to get
a bolt/nut installed to keep them from separating again. Some sort of
jack or lift will have been used to support the tranny or motor into
position and it will continue to hold them while the installer gets that
first bolt in.
> CNC's often use a thread mill not a tap,
> I will find out if the cost is significant.
I can certainly appreciate the attraction of tapped holes, if the
additional cost is not significant, however, I see a few drawbacks also.
Notably, on a RWD vehicle, tapped holes may force me to have to install
the bellhousing bolts from beneath the vehicle in the standard ICE
fashion even though I may have clear access from the motor side to use
bolts and nuts (i.e. I can get a box end wrench on the tranny side to
hold a nut while spinning the bolt from the motor side, but cannot get a
ratchet on the tranny side to turn a bolt that must thread into the
adapter plate).
> >I really don't think it is unreasonable that someone
> >undertaking an EV conversion would be capable of using
> >a jig saw to customise the generic adapter's profile to
> >their specific bellhousing, should they choose to do so.
>
> <chide> but why should they? they are paying for someone else
> to do the machine work, he with the best adapter wins?</chide>
*If* they are paying for someone else to do the machine work, then
absolutely, he with the best adapter for the price wins.
My impression is that people converting EVs are generally looking for
the least expensive components possible and place relatively low value
on their own time. That is, they are paying for someone else to do the
*precision* machine work because they have to, but in many cases would
have no qualms about doing the grunt work themselves to reduce the
conversion cost.
> The design I have now is akin to the motorplate in sprintcars
> and high power race cars, the two holes out wide are for the
> torque reaction you mentioned, they are as close to the frame
> as possible to best transfer the torque, that way I need 2
> not 4 :-)
If you do vehicle-specific adapters, then this is possible and makes
sense. If you do a generic adapter then 4 ears may be required to
accommodate different chassis peculiarities (not all 4 would be used in
any one vehicle).
> Funny you mentioned SBC that is what my adapter is!
My rationale was that if you are going to force purchasers of your
adapter to use a flywheel/clutch other than what cane out of their donor
vehicle, then it had better be something that they can pick up anywhere
for very little money. Of course, while small block Chevy is common as
dirt in North America, it may not be a very convenient choice for
converters in other countries.
> I just realized that If I include the flywheel(gotta change that
> name, how about "clutch mounting surface") in the adapter,
> I can eliminate 6 threaded holes and a dowel pin and about an
> inch of overall height. This saves money on the motor bell, it
> can be shallower.
If your adapter is remotely like those presently available, then even a
1" reduction in "height" isn't going to mean a huge cost reduction as
this would merely eliminate (or reduce the thickness of) the donut
spacer between the motor and adapter plate.
> using tilton/quartermaster/avg 2 plate racing clutch is cool because
> there are lots on ebay since people changed to internal or
> 4.5" clutches and they are all the same bolt pattern! a racing
> standard. Plus the clutch can handle the torque. Tilton made me
> a set of paltes for my .5 tripple plate for $160
> The throw out bearing is a challenge :-(
So let me get this straight: you want to make a slick adapter that is
cheaper than those presently available, but still vehicle-specific, and
after shelling out a couple hundred bucks for your adapter, I then have
to go on E-Bay to buy myself a ~used~ racing clutch (even if I don't
need the torque capability), and then pay another $100 (2/3 of $160) to
get new disks made to adapt it to my tranny, and then there is still the
issue of having to pick up a SBC flywheel and get some sort of custom
throwout bearing arrangement fabricated?
Sounds to me like I would be lucky to get away for less than the $750 I
would presently pay for a vehicle-specific adapter that allows me to
resuse my donor's flywheel, clutch, and throwout bearing. And, reusing
my donor's parts means that if/when I have to take my car to a tranny
shop, there won't be any confusion about what parts are needed, etc.
> There are a lot of interconnected costs and ways of doing things
I really think the simplest is to use a flat plate that bolts to the
tranny bellhousing, then a donut spacer between that plate and the motor
(i.e. exactly what the present adapters are). These are both relatively
thin pieces so that machining time is minimal, and by making the
donut-to-plate mounting standard, one could have motor-specific donuts
to adapt the motor bolt patterns/shaft lengths as appropriate.
While it is alluring to have the ability to pull the motor and
flywheel/clutch assembly as a unit without unbolting the adapter from
the bellhousing, I don't really see that this is sufficient
justification for all the hassles associated with going to a smaller
diameter clutch/flywheel and then adapting that to the donor vehicle's
tranny.
Cheers,
Roger.
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Ryan Stotts wrote:
Sounds dangerous to me! Imagine a PFC charger. Imagine it's + and -
hooked up to the battery pack. That's it! Nice and safe and
ISOLATED.
Why in the world would you want a high voltage ground be connected to
the car body? It's like making an electric chair using a car body...
No.. the AC ground (earth) should be connected to the chassis when
charging. Any short from the AC hot to the chassis (think power cord
chafing) will be safely carried to ground (hopefully tripping the GFCI
or circuit breaker in the process)
This is especially valuable on a non-isolated charger where a fault on
the pack could also make the chassis "hot" relative to the ground you
are standing on.
The only drawbacks.. minor leakage paths between the pack can cause
nusiance tripping of the GFCI. And touching the battery during
non-isolated charging becomes twice as hazardous since its easy to be in
contact with the pack and the chassis.
So.. ground your AC ground to the chassis, and don't even think of
touching the pack with the cord connected to the pack.
Mark
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You might consider making what is referred to as a "rear seat delete kit".
http://img174.exs.cx/img174/4583/carpetplasticrsd5xv.jpg
Or would this present a fire hazard?
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When I convert my ICE car over to electric, I am planning on rewiring
the car and not using the body for a common ground.
Wire it like this:
Battery pack -> Controller -> Motor
Battery pack -> 12v DC/DC -> Fuse panel -> (LED lights, horn,
meters/gauges, etc)
Battery pack -> PFC charger
I'll let the 3rd prong plugged into the wall outlet handle any AC
grounding "needs"..
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Just a thought...
Wasn't there a big bruhaha about GM using an electric power steering pump
on their large pick ups and calling it a hybrid?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:25:57 -0500, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 28 Mar 2005 at 17:18, Evan Tuer wrote:
> Hydraulic power steering though, yuk :(
Has anybody yet tried salvaging the electric power steering from a
wrecked
Prius?
Practically all smaller cars over here now have electric power
steering. For example, a car I sometimes drive, GM Corsa, has it.
Looks like this:
http://www.bba-reman.com/vauxhall_corsa_power_steering.htm
I read that the latest version is speed dependant and assist drops off
as speed increases.
This company seems to offer a stand-alone system:
http://www.wiringlooms.com/electronic_steering.html
Personally I think it's a bit of a gimmick on a small car, although
given that EV conversions tend to end up pretty heavy, we should be
grateful that such things are available off the shelf.
If anyone wants to give it a try I could certainly obtain a
power-assisted column from a scrapyard and send it over. It might
even be compatible with US GM cars, who knows...
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I got quantitty 10 qoutes and an estimate of over 25% reduction for
quantity 25. That kinda seals the deal on the clutch issue.
Tapping verses drill only is "negligable cost difference" So Threaded
is the way to go for me.
I need to play with the numbers before I quote prices to the group.
Looks like 87 300zx will be first kit avail followed by mitsubish pu and
or 88 honda accord. People just want to give me gliders.
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How about cleaning them to bare metal by sandblasting or wire brushing and
sanding then coating them with the Plastidip tool dip compound found at Home
Depot? Its available in spray cans and in brushable form. Don't know if you
prime first but that might be a good idea too. HD also sells a "HardHat"
brand of red oxide primer that is excellent. Good luck, and if you try this
let us know your results. I have some aluminum racks in a C-car I will need
to do soon, was planning on trying this myself using zinc chromate
primecoat.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "W Bryan Andrews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 11:06 AM
Subject: Insulating rusty battery rack?
It seems that I'm having to clean my battery tops more than most people
on my standard ElectroAutomotive rabbit conversion. I'm betting it has
something to do with the corroded battery racks providing a path to
ground.
Is wrapping the racks in heatshrink tubing going to get the job done?
Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Bryan
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