EV Digest 4238
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Band saw was Re: Adapter Ideas
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) New Charger location uses 45KW solar array. EV charging signs Dixon &
Vacaville.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) asdf
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Band saw was Re: Adapter Ideas
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Troubled Batteries (was: Flooded batteries max current)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
by "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
by "David C. Navas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
by Travis Raybold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - getting silly here
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: NEDRA Woodburn Race Sunday, September 4
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Band saw was Re: Adapter Ideas
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Cutting aluminum with carbide blade is really easy,
the trick is to use a carbide blade with zero degree
to a slight negative rake angle. That along with
squirt of WD-40 every couple of inches. I've cut
aluminum 4 inches thick this was with a dumb old skill
saw. just make sure you wear goggles, ear protection,
and long sleeves for the hot little chips. I run the
stuff on the table saw the same way. I sometimes
rough cut aluminum patterns with a jibsaw then trim
them with a wood template and a router with a guide
bit. The pieces look machined.
Gadget
--- Jack Knopf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My adaptor plate is 1 inch aluminium. I took it to
> the local Machine Shop
> and he said he might be able to get to cutting it a
> week from Thursday. One
> shop said I could cut 1/8" sheet aluminium with a
> skill saw and a carbide
> blade. So on my 1" aluminium adaptor plate I tried a
> carbide blade in a
> skill saw, no good, then a diamond blade, no good,
> had an old plywood blade
> laying around so I tried that. Went right through.
> Had to use about 3 of
> them to get through 20" of 1" aluminium, but I did
> it and got on the road.
> This adaptor plate I once had on an old Volkswagen
> and took the tranny out
> to lay on the plate to mark the bell housing holes.
> I cut the 3" center hole
> with a cordless drill and a hole saw. All holes were
> drilled with a cordless
> drill. Centered the motor in the 3" hole , marked
> the holes, drilled , put
> one side of transmission coupler on the motor, one
> side on the VW
> tranny(welded), bolted the plate and motor on and
> took off. This was
> clutchless.
> On the Kia conversion I did a couple of weeks ago, I
> used this same 1"
> aluminium plate, with the same motor. The Kia has a
> 1/16 spacer between the
> tranny and the engine with all of the holes that are
> in the bell housing and
> motor. A Template! I took this template, laid on
> the 1" plate, centered
> around the existing 3" hole, marked the bell housing
> holes and then drilled
> with a yard sale drill press. (Much better than
> cordless drill) Then took
> center of clutch and had 1/8" machined off to fit in
> transmission coupler
> and then welded clutch center to coupler. $20 at
> machine shop. I hacksawed
> about 1/4" off the back of the clutch center to get
> the distance right with
> not much play. Bolted this up and I am now driving
> around town. From
> decision to driving was 9 days with no special
> tools. Again this was
> clutchless. I have read a lot of the clutchless vs
> clutch and decided to go
> clutchless just because it was simpler and quicker
> and I wanted to get on
> the road.
> My idea for an adaptor is just a flat aluminium
> plate with a 3" hole in the
> center for clutchless and bigger hole for clutch.
> Not much machining and
> could be bought in bulk. To the customer , send a
> nice white plastic
> template, a sharpie, 3/8 drill bit and the plate.
> With instructions. Get a
> deposit on the template to be returned when template
> is returned. They can
> keep the sharpie. Instead of the coupler, I guess
> you could send a 2" steel
> bar with a 7/8 inch hole in the middle to be
> machined for the tranny shaft
> to motor shaft. I have never done a clutch version
> but am looking forward to
> it. The Kia shifts really nice without one though,
> I can almost speed
> shift.
> Later, Jack.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 9:52 AM
> Subject: Re: Band saw was Re: Adapter Ideas
>
>
> > The truth is that cutting aluminum is a little bit
> > tricky. but if you have the proper size gullet in
> the
> > blade, proper blade speed and lubrication, the
> stuff
> > cuts like butter. I was able to cut out the
> adapter
> > plate for my conversion in less time than we has
> spent
> > on this discussion. less than 10 minutes. I made
> my
> > adapter out of 1/4 material. It was so stiff that
> I
> > was able to stand on the set up and didn't detect
> any
> > flexing. I believe that other adapter plates are
> so
> > thick because so much spacing is required when
> using a
> > flywheel spacer/adapter. By putting the taperlock
> > inside the flywheel I only needed the 1/4
> thicknessof
> > the plate I used. If I were to start a conversion
> > business tomorrow I would use stock flywheels cut
> down
> > in diameter with the taperlok fitted into it. That
> way
> > I would avoid the cost of the flywheel adapter and
> > spacer. My machining costs for that operation are
> > still way less than the cost of the adapter. I
> would
> > then be able to use the stock pressure plate and
> disc.
> > there would be no worries about weather the
> throwout
> > bearing would work. and I would have the
> confidence
> > that the tranny wouldn't blow up when I done with
> it,
> > since the stock plate shouldn't be able to
> transmit
> > enough torque to blow the thing up. What I'm
> talking
> > about here is a good daily driver not a high
> > performance hot rod. the car would have plenty of
> > power but not enough to eat itself. Using this
> method
> > I could build a different model everytime and
> still be
> > less costly than the universal adapter
> plate/flywheel
> > adapter/spacer ring combo, and still turn a
> profit. I
> > just don't see that there will all af a sudden be
> a
> > huge market for conversions. By the time we get to
> > that point, we will have done our job as a group
> > (educating and advocating) and some OEM will be
> > manufacturing.
> >
> > end of rant
> > Thanks for listening
> > Gadget
> > --- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> I can see where a "wood" blade will last longer
> on
> >> aluminium because the
> >> default wood blade has less teeth per inch than
> the
> >> default metal blade.
> >> Alum is softer and takes a bigger chip and it
> must
> >> be cleared or the
> >> blade rubs more than cuts.
> >>
> >> As for the depth, Look at my adapter plate, the
> ears
> >> to the frame do
> >> make it quite wide. Cutting a basically round
> shape
> >> out of a rectangle,
> >> eventually you are at that 45 degree section
> where
> >> the corner is hitting
> >> and you get to back up and come in at 90 degrees
> to
> >> remove the corner so
> >> you can continue. This doesn't happen all the
> time,
> >> the point is more
> >> that it takes time, human, attended time. In
> other
> >> than hobby projects,
> >> that spells money. The water jet , or laser, or
> >> plasma program and hit
> >> the go button.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
> >
>
>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It may work for cell phones or laptops.
Let see what it takes to charge an EV in one minute:
Modest 40 miles range * 200Wh/mile consumption = 8kWh worth of
electricity. With 240V mains this means 8000/240=33.3A
to rechange in one hour. For one minute it is 60 times
of that rate or exactly 2000A at 240VAC. 480kW power.
Anyone got 2000A feed and service panel?
Rich? When the next 0.5 MW cryo cooled PFC-2000 charger is due?
Oh, it better be 100% efficient, because every percent
of lost efficiency is 4.8kW of heat, so even 95% efficient
charger will waste 24kW of power to heat (would be enough
power to run 2-3 average houses at once)...
Don't kid me about EVs Toshiba.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
David C. Navas wrote:
It is interesting in the sense that it is becoming clear that
charge rates will go up, and that people working on chargers need
to plan for that future and not be all concerned about .3C
charge rates on certain lithium chemistries....
It is interesting in the sense that it is clear that battery
chemistries continue to advance, despite all the concentration
on fuel-cells
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On a trip from Sacramento I noticed two new signs for EV charging. One in
Dixon & one in Vacaville. Both West bound. Lawrence Rhodes.....
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:14:13 -0000
From: "anbausa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: New Charger location uses 45KW solar array
From:
http://www.thereporter.com/news/ci_2622106
Lot aimed to cut traffic on Interstate 80 opens
By Tom Hall/Staff Writer
With the subtle roar of a midday Interstate 80 not too far away, city
and county leaders gathered Thursday to unveil a welcome addition to
Vacaville's transportation options.
The Bella Vista Road Park and Ride Lot was dedicated and opened
Thursday, where Bella Vista meets Davis Street in the shadow of I-80.
The $1.7 million project was lauded by Vacaville officials as a
product of hard work and smart planning.
"These things don't just happen," said Mayor Len Augustine.
Dale Pfeiffer, the city's director of public works, said the
expansive lot was designed in-house by city engineers. The 201-space
lot was paid for entirely by grants from the federal government, the
state and a regional air quality district.
But one of the most exciting things Pfeiffer pointed at was the
fact that the lot's entire power needs will be met by solar panels on
the site.
A 45-kilowatt photovoltaic system will provide the energy needed to
run the lot's six electric vehicle recharging stations, as well as
all the lighting for the site. As an added bonus, the solar panels
provide shelter for several parking spaces.
Suisun City Mayor Jim Spering, who has long been involved in regional
traffic issues, commended Vacaville on its vision and commitment to
alternative modes of transportation.
"If there's one staff in the county who gets it, it's the city staff
in Vacaville," Spering said.
Daryl Halls, the executive director of the Solano Transportation
Authority, said the new lot will help reduce the 125,000 daily trips
that are made on the Vacaville stretch of I-80. The lot is within
walking distance of Vacaville's major public transportation hub - the
Vacaville Regional Transportation Center on Davis Street, north of I-
80.
Vacaville also has a Park and Ride lot near Leisure Town Road's I-80
interchange.
Tom Hall can be reached at
vacaville@ thereporter.com
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:04:27 -0800, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It may work for cell phones or laptops.
>
> Let see what it takes to charge an EV in one minute:
>
> Modest 40 miles range * 200Wh/mile consumption = 8kWh worth of
> electricity. With 240V mains this means 8000/240=33.3A
> to rechange in one hour. For one minute it is 60 times
> of that rate or exactly 2000A at 240VAC. 480kW power.
>
> Anyone got 2000A feed and service panel?
No, but I do have 415V 3-phase with 200A (I think) fuses.
So that's 250kW... it would take 2 minutes :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > $10,000 in awards will be given to the most fuel efficient vehicles
> > in the National Monte Carlo-style Rally this May. The prizes will
> > be given to production hybrid or bio-diesel vehicles that travel
> > a minimum of 150 miles, at an average of over 55 mpg. A $5,000 prize
> > will be given to most fuel-efficient vehicle that breaks the 100-mpg
> > barrier.
>
> So, EVs are no longer even being considered as "fuel efficient
> vehicles"? Not eligible for any prizes, no categories for them? Does
> that make the TdS off-topic for the EV list?
Not to worry Lee.
The traditional competition is known as the Tour de Sol Championship.
There are still competition categories and prizes for:
Battery Electric Vehicles
Hybrid and Alternative Fuel Vehicles
Solar
Hydrogen
Demonstration
To quote from the Rule Book ...
VEHICLE CATEGORIES, SIZE, AND TECHNOLOGY GROUPS
This system of "categorizing" vehicles will honor the diversity of the
many types of new and exciting clean and efficient vehicle
technologies and fuels that are being introduced by business and
academia. There are four competitive vehicle Technology Groups:
Battery Electric Vehicles
Hybrid/Alternative Fueled Vehicles
Solar
Hydrogen Vehicles
Each category is divided into three Size Classes: Light-Duty, Heavy-
Duty, and One-Person. Furthermore, each size class will have two
Divisions: Production (Automotive OEM) and Prototype (Automotive OEM,
Student, and Independent). Finally, the Demonstration Category is
intended for vehicles that are being showcased but not competing. The
goal having of the Technology Groups is to encourage various
technologies and to make the competitive aspect of the event as fair
as possible so that technologies that have very different strengths
(and therefore end uses) are not competing against one another.
The Monte Carlo rally is new this year, to encourage the "early adopters" to
join the party.
--
Mike Bianchi
17th Annual Tour de Sol
May 13-16, 2005 in Saratoga and Albany, NY
Featuring New Events, Competitions, Activities Leading the Way to a
Sustainable Energy and Transportation Future, A Green "Car Show" and More
www.TourDeSol.org
www.Foveal.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No. It includes hybrids. LR............
----- Original Message ----- > So, EVs are no longer even being considered
as "fuel efficient
vehicles"? Not eligible for any prizes, no categories for them? Does
that make the TdS off-topic for the EV list?
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Ryan Stotts wrote:
> >
> > > Imagine a PFC charger. Imagine it's + and -
> > > hooked up to the battery pack. That's it! Nice and safe and
> > > ISOLATED.
> >
> > If you're talking about Rich's PFC chargers, they are NOT isolated
> > from the power line. I believe he now offers them with isolating
> > transformers as an option, but last I heard he hadn't sold any. I
> > guess most EV hobbyists are too cheap to pay for greater safety.
To be fair, it is not just about being cheap. Rich's solution of
offering large, heavy (and expensive) line frequency isolation
transormers is a major kudge (in my opinion). His chargers are already
high frequency switchmode devices, and adding the isolation internally
in the form of a high frequency transformer is really the proper way to
do it. Nobody in their right mind is going to shell out for a Manzanita
Micro PFC charger to allow them to have universal input, high power
charging on-board the EV and then install a bulky, heavy isolation
transformer in the vehicle that most likely ties them back to a single
line voltage input.
> > FYI, a ground is *not* required for a GFI to catch a
> > potential shock. It's supposed to detect any ground
> > fault current sufficient to cause a shock. It appears
> > that the GFI here is simply not doing its job.
Right. The problem is that GFCIs come in at least two flavours, one
which trips at about 5mA and one which trips at about 20mA (which
happens to be permitted for EVs, and is likely to be used since it will
reduce the nuisance tripping), and that they can fail to trip (as proven
in this case). Do you want to gamble on how much fault current it takes
to harm a small child on a rainy day?
Earthing (to avoid any confusion with 'ground'), the vehicle chassis
ensures that no matter what the GFCI trip level or whether it works or
not, someone providing a conductive path between the vehicle chassis and
the ground cannot get a shock.
As Neon wisely stated, use at least 2 layers of safety.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:04:27 -0800, Victor Tikhonov
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>It may work for cell phones or laptops.
>
>Let see what it takes to charge an EV in one minute:
>
>Modest 40 miles range * 200Wh/mile consumption = 8kWh worth of
>electricity. With 240V mains this means 8000/240=33.3A
>to rechange in one hour. For one minute it is 60 times
>of that rate or exactly 2000A at 240VAC. 480kW power.
>
>Anyone got 2000A feed and service panel?
Oh, don't be silly. Only a bozo or the government would try to
implement a line operated charger for a 1 minute charge cycle. That's
a lot of power but not much energy - 80kwh. Deliver that much energy
in a more luxurious 5 minutes and the draw goes down to 400 amps. Lots
of houses today have 400 amp service.
More appropriate would be some sort of dump charger. At 80kwh, that
might be an excellent application for a flywheel battery. Charge the
dump charger over an hour and the draw is only 33 amps as you note
above. Charge in 30 mins and the draw is still only 66 amps.
>Don't kid me about EVs Toshiba.
In oh, maybe 10 years. This is one of those PR department-produced
sheets that used to, only Popular "we put the pseudo in science"
Science magazine would pick up and print. I'll be shocked if whatever
this technology is, it makes it out of the lab in under 5 years, even
for cellphones.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try ordinary antifreeze as your cutting fluid on aluminum. You'll be
absolutely amazed. That is what comes in a can of Tap-Magic aluminum
cutting fluid. Propylene glycol doesn't seem to work as well as
ethylene glycol.
John
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:04:29 -0800 (PST), Reverend Gadget
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Cutting aluminum with carbide blade is really easy,
>the trick is to use a carbide blade with zero degree
>to a slight negative rake angle. That along with
>squirt of WD-40 every couple of inches. I've cut
>aluminum 4 inches thick this was with a dumb old skill
>saw. just make sure you wear goggles, ear protection,
>and long sleeves for the hot little chips. I run the
>stuff on the table saw the same way. I sometimes
>rough cut aluminum patterns with a jibsaw then trim
>them with a wood template and a router with a guide
>bit. The pieces look machined.
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Is it normal for there to be this kind of variation between cell
> gravities in the same battery, or should they be very close
> to the same value?
They should typically be pretty close to the same value within a given
battery.
If you aren't temperature compensating your readings and there are
differences in temperature between the cells, then this can exaggerate
the SG differences.
None of these SGs are anywhere near that of a fully charged battery. I
understand that you did drive about 3mi between charging and reading the
SG, but it would have to have been a *brutal* 3mi drive to drop the SG
to this level if they really started out fully charged.
Double-check your charging parameters; I suspect you are not getting the
batteries fully charged.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No problem for you then. Just plan for off-board 2 ton
charger at the cost of 5 houses, and you're set :-)
Like 2 of these in parallel, no problem:
http://www.aerovironment.com/area-pps/prod-serv/av-900.html
Victor
Evan Tuer wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:04:27 -0800, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It may work for cell phones or laptops.
Let see what it takes to charge an EV in one minute:
Modest 40 miles range * 200Wh/mile consumption = 8kWh worth of
electricity. With 240V mains this means 8000/240=33.3A
to rechange in one hour. For one minute it is 60 times
of that rate or exactly 2000A at 240VAC. 480kW power.
Anyone got 2000A feed and service panel?
No, but I do have 415V 3-phase with 200A (I think) fuses.
So that's 250kW... it would take 2 minutes :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks that way. I didn't see any BEV categories. Closest thing is plug-in
hybrids are eligible.
Another stab in the back to EVers . . . Tour de Sold Out . . . to the
alt-fuelers.
Conspiracy theory time. Those awards are pretty substantial. I wonder if the
tour sponsors had a say in what the prizes are to be awarded to and if they
balked at the idea of having an electric category. The "EV" category had to
come into the conversation when planning this event. I bet they nicked it.
If that's the case it's OT . . . out-a-here . . . later . . . adios las
alamos. Take your alt-fuel to another list.
Sorry Mike, can't blame you since you do great coverage on the race.
See ya,
Chip Gribben
144-volt Electric Ford Escort
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > $10,000 in awards will be given to the most fuel efficient vehicles
> > in the National Monte Carlo-style Rally this May. The prizes will
> > be given to production hybrid or bio-diesel vehicles that travel
> > a minimum of 150 miles, at an average of over 55 mpg. A $5,000 prize
> > will be given to most fuel-efficient vehicle that breaks the 100-mpg
> > barrier.
>
> So, EVs are no longer even being considered as "fuel efficient
> vehicles"? Not eligible for any prizes, no categories for them? Does
> that make the TdS off-topic for the EV list?
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> It may work for cell phones or laptops.
>
> Let see what it takes to charge an EV in one minute:
Yeah, I've done that calculation. It's amusing, isn't it?
Except I started with a 100kwh pack. Waste heat from the charger
isn't the only problem. Imagine what a group-31 battery-sized
module would create in waste heat during recharge? Screw the
charger efficiency, the battery better have several 9's worth
of efficiency as well!
For a big charger like this, put it off-board, run a stirling off
the waste heat or something like that. Getting many thousands of
amps from the charger, to the pack, safely, would be a bit more
challenging. Of course, they're talking about liquid-cooled
hydrogen refueling systems, so who knows how crazy things can
get. [removes tongue from cheek]
That said, this is the largest battery I've seen with this kind of
charge rate. Previous cells were all of the micro-variety --
thin-film lithium batteries, with amazing charge, discharge, and
cycle lives, sold by the cm^2, rather than by volume. It is
an interesting development. They need to scale by another two
orders of magnitude to be useful to us.
-Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart writes:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > $10,000 in awards will be given to the most fuel efficient vehicles
> > in the National Monte Carlo-style Rally this May. The prizes will
> > be given to production hybrid or bio-diesel vehicles that travel
> > a minimum of 150 miles, at an average of over 55 mpg. A $5,000 prize
> > will be given to most fuel-efficient vehicle that breaks the 100-mpg
> > barrier.
>
> So, EVs are no longer even being considered as "fuel efficient
> vehicles"? Not eligible for any prizes, no categories for them? Does
> that make the TdS off-topic for the EV list?
Seems like it's close. In 2000 there were over 20 electric vehicles.
In 2004 there were 10. The trend is clearly toward hybrids or bio-fuels.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fast or slow charging aside, are those numbers correct? 480 kW's? That means
that from my elec co, (Trico, here in Tucson), at .1073 per kWH, it would
cost $51 to recharge for a modest 40 mile trip.
Forget EV's, I'm sticking with my diesel truck....
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov"
Subject: Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
> It may work for cell phones or laptops.
>
> Let see what it takes to charge an EV in one minute:
>
> Modest 40 miles range * 200Wh/mile consumption = 8kWh worth of
> electricity. With 240V mains this means 8000/240=33.3A
> to rechange in one hour. For one minute it is 60 times
> of that rate or exactly 2000A at 240VAC. 480kW power.
>
> Anyone got 2000A feed and service panel?
>
> Rich? When the next 0.5 MW cryo cooled PFC-2000 charger is due?
> Oh, it better be 100% efficient, because every percent
> of lost efficiency is 4.8kW of heat, so even 95% efficient
> charger will waste 24kW of power to heat (would be enough
> power to run 2-3 average houses at once)...
>
> Don't kid me about EVs Toshiba.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
> David C. Navas wrote:
>
>>
>> It is interesting in the sense that it is becoming clear that
>> charge rates will go up, and that people working on chargers need
>> to plan for that future and not be all concerned about .3C
>> charge rates on certain lithium chemistries....
>> It is interesting in the sense that it is clear that battery
>> chemistries continue to advance, despite all the concentration
>> on fuel-cells
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
the 480kW is for the one minute recharge, so divide by 60 :)
--travis
Rush wrote:
Fast or slow charging aside, are those numbers correct? 480 kW's? That means
that from my elec co, (Trico, here in Tucson), at .1073 per kWH, it would
cost $51 to recharge for a modest 40 mile trip.
Forget EV's, I'm sticking with my diesel truck....
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov"
Subject: Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
It may work for cell phones or laptops.
Let see what it takes to charge an EV in one minute:
Modest 40 miles range * 200Wh/mile consumption = 8kWh worth of
electricity. With 240V mains this means 8000/240=33.3A
to rechange in one hour. For one minute it is 60 times
of that rate or exactly 2000A at 240VAC. 480kW power.
Anyone got 2000A feed and service panel?
Rich? When the next 0.5 MW cryo cooled PFC-2000 charger is due?
Oh, it better be 100% efficient, because every percent
of lost efficiency is 4.8kW of heat, so even 95% efficient
charger will waste 24kW of power to heat (would be enough
power to run 2-3 average houses at once)...
Don't kid me about EVs Toshiba.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
David C. Navas wrote:
It is interesting in the sense that it is becoming clear that
charge rates will go up, and that people working on chargers need
to plan for that future and not be all concerned about .3C
charge rates on certain lithium chemistries....
It is interesting in the sense that it is clear that battery
chemistries continue to advance, despite all the concentration
on fuel-cells
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Mar 2005 at 13:48, Lee Hart wrote:
> So, EVs are no longer even being considered as "fuel efficient
> vehicles"? Not eligible for any prizes, no categories for them? Does
> that make the TdS off-topic for the EV list?
You have to dig a bit in the news release, but it appears that the Tour de Sol
will still allow e-bikes to participate:
> attendees will have an opportunity to see three
> new hybrid SUV's, Honda and Toyota's hybrid sedans, electric bikes
> and scooters, and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
Although EVs seem to have only a bit part in this play, I trust that Michael
Bianci will make sure that all of his TdS reports provide at least a modicum of
worthwhile EV content. That'll make them at least acceptable under the list
charter.
IMO, this is a shame. There was a time when these reports were a good bit
more than "acceptable." But while biodiesel, fossil-fuel quasi-hybrids, and
fuel cells are certainly of interest to some here, each report that focuses on
these subjects is diminished in value relative to the EV list's mission.
The Tour de Sol used to be one of the premiere EVents. If I'm not mistaken,
at one time they really lived up to their name, and required that all
participants use solar power in some form. Now old Sol is just about
forgotten, and they seem to be relegating even battery EVs to second-class -
or lower - status. Maybe they should rename it the Tour de MPG.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just looking at the numbers my (soon to be) SMART car running Bio-Diesel
should make better than 55 mpg if I drive carefully.
If the wording is right maybe you could put a 1gal gas can in the trunk at
the start of the race and hand it back still full at the end? Would that
count as >100mpg or if you had to consume it maybe you could mount a small
model airplane engine on the rear bumper and a pusher prop :-).
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chip Gribben
Sent: March 29, 2005 1:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Looks that way. I didn't see any BEV categories. Closest thing is plug-in
hybrids are eligible.
Another stab in the back to EVers . . . Tour de Sold Out . . . to the
alt-fuelers.
Conspiracy theory time. Those awards are pretty substantial. I wonder if the
tour sponsors had a say in what the prizes are to be awarded to and if they
balked at the idea of having an electric category. The "EV" category had to
come into the conversation when planning this event. I bet they nicked it.
If that's the case it's OT . . . out-a-here . . . later . . . adios las
alamos. Take your alt-fuel to another list.
Sorry Mike, can't blame you since you do great coverage on the race.
See ya,
Chip Gribben
144-volt Electric Ford Escort
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > $10,000 in awards will be given to the most fuel efficient vehicles
> > in the National Monte Carlo-style Rally this May. The prizes will
> > be given to production hybrid or bio-diesel vehicles that travel
> > a minimum of 150 miles, at an average of over 55 mpg. A $5,000 prize
> > will be given to most fuel-efficient vehicle that breaks the 100-mpg
> > barrier.
>
> So, EVs are no longer even being considered as "fuel efficient
> vehicles"? Not eligible for any prizes, no categories for them? Does
> that make the TdS off-topic for the EV list?
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All right, to clear this up, show me a picture of a PFC charger that
is grounded to the car body.
Or if no picture is available, what gauge wire is to be used from the
vehicle body to the charger? I can imagine the wire attached to the
body, now where exactly does it attach to the charger at?
Some pictures of the charger for a visual:
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chargers3.htm
I still don't like the idea of hooking the charger up to the car body
in this way... Just seems like it would be a bad idea.
Say for example somehow the box had a melt down or some sort of short
circuit fault in it. Wouldn't it be better to have it contained in
it's box instead of having a wire connecting it to the car body?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree for independatn testing validity but it's possible and not
incredible or new, Kokam batteries like others high power li-poly already
permit fast charge !
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
> > Toshiba has developed a Lithium-Ion battery capable of being charged
> > to 80 per cent of its full capacity in under 60 seconds. Filling it up
> > takes just "a few more minutes", the company boasted today.
>
> Yeah, yeah, yeah... Show me the battery. I'll believe it when someone
> outside Toshiba buys one, tests it, and publishes independent results.
>
> Until then, it's interesting, but vaporware.
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chip,
Shouldn't that be Hot Comms, instead of watt rods?!
He's a fool, she's a fool, I'm a fool, you're a fool, wouldn't you like a
fool cell too?
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:22:46 -0500
>From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Hey everyone,
>
>Get your watt rods ready. Woodburn will be Sunday, September 4 at Woodburn
>Raceway in Woodburn Oregon.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
wupps....thanks for the correction...
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Raybold"
Subject: Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
> the 480kW is for the one minute recharge, so divide by 60 :)
>
> --travis
>
> Rush wrote:
>
>>Fast or slow charging aside, are those numbers correct? 480 kW's? That
>>means
>>that from my elec co, (Trico, here in Tucson), at .1073 per kWH, it would
>>cost $51 to recharge for a modest 40 mile trip.
>>
>>Forget EV's, I'm sticking with my diesel truck....
>>
>>Rush
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Victor Tikhonov"
>>Subject: Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
>>
>>
>>
>>>It may work for cell phones or laptops.
>>>
>>>Let see what it takes to charge an EV in one minute:
>>>
>>>Modest 40 miles range * 200Wh/mile consumption = 8kWh worth of
>>>electricity. With 240V mains this means 8000/240=33.3A
>>>to rechange in one hour. For one minute it is 60 times
>>>of that rate or exactly 2000A at 240VAC. 480kW power.
>>>
>>>Anyone got 2000A feed and service panel?
>>>
>>>Rich? When the next 0.5 MW cryo cooled PFC-2000 charger is due?
>>>Oh, it better be 100% efficient, because every percent
>>>of lost efficiency is 4.8kW of heat, so even 95% efficient
>>>charger will waste 24kW of power to heat (would be enough
>>>power to run 2-3 average houses at once)...
>>>
>>>Don't kid me about EVs Toshiba.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Victor
>>>'91 ACRX - something different
>>>
>>>David C. Navas wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>It is interesting in the sense that it is becoming clear that
>>>>charge rates will go up, and that people working on chargers need
>>>>to plan for that future and not be all concerned about .3C
>>>>charge rates on certain lithium chemistries....
>>>>It is interesting in the sense that it is clear that battery
>>>>chemistries continue to advance, despite all the concentration
>>>>on fuel-cells
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>.
>>
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The safety ground to the car body doesn't have to come from ( or through)
the charger. It can go directly to the house wiring round.
For example- use a three pole connector at the car : two connections carry
power from the charger to the batteries, the third is the ground line ( from
house ground to the car body). And, of course, the connector should make
contact with the ground connection before the two charger outputs ( like a
typical three pole grounded wall plug does).
Others may know better about this than me, but I would think #10 copper
would suffice for the grounding wire.
Phil
From: Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:50:34 -0600
All right, to clear this up, show me a picture of a PFC charger that
is grounded to the car body.
Or if no picture is available, what gauge wire is to be used from the
vehicle body to the charger? I can imagine the wire attached to the
body, now where exactly does it attach to the charger at?
Some pictures of the charger for a visual:
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chargers3.htm
I still don't like the idea of hooking the charger up to the car body
in this way... Just seems like it would be a bad idea.
Say for example somehow the box had a melt down or some sort of short
circuit fault in it. Wouldn't it be better to have it contained in
it's box instead of having a wire connecting it to the car body?
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reverend Gadget wrote:
The truth is that cutting aluminum is a little bit
tricky. but if you have the proper size gullet in the
blade, proper blade speed and lubrication, the stuff
cuts like butter. I was able to cut out the adapter
plate for my conversion in less time than we has spent
on this discussion. less than 10 minutes. I made my
adapter out of 1/4 material. It was so stiff that I
was able to stand on the set up and didn't detect any
flexing.
The 1/2" thickness of commercial EV adapter plates are for resisting
torque and to give enough depth to hold the alignment dowels/bushings.
Strength of the motor/transmission mounting was never an issue.
Spacing is done with the spacing ring, in the case of EVCC the rings
were made cheaply from 9"OD 1" wall AL pipe. Bandsaw off a chunk and
face up both sides on the lathe. The up front costs were high (min
order, 10' or $1200) but it was cheaper than plate by the inch and far
faster to machine.
Putting the taperlock into the flywheel is an effective technique and I
am sure cheaper and more compact. It probably could be done
commercially, by just having the hobbyist send the flywheel to the
machinist. OTOH, the machinist only gets one chance to do it correctly,
and some flywheel are hard enough to be nearly unmachinable.
EVCC averaged about $30/hour in income for the machinist time... its not
a great way to get rich.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
This is a hazardous situation!
For years I've had a concern that someday an EV hobbyist is going to have
his car charging in the driveway when the 5 year old kid next door wanders
over, trips on something, leans on the car to get his balance, and either is
electrocuted or jumps away and hits his head on something.
I've been saying for years that a GFI *is not enough* while others argued
that it was plenty. This is more evidence in favor of that view. In this
case Mike says the system is fitted with one, and he's getting shocked.
Mike, PLEASE unplug that charger NOW and don't use it again until you figure
out what's going on. I sure hope you don't have any neighbors or kids in
your family.
Isolated power supplies can be safe or unsafe, depending on design. So
can non-isolated systems.
Here we have failures on both of the safety systems. #1 is a installer
error for failing to connect the ground to the chassis. #2 is the GFCI
failing to trip. (was it wired incorrectly, not used, or faulty? ) Russ
is right, the charger manufacturer should probably install his own GFCI
in the charger, since you cannot trust the user to always plug into a
GFCI protected outlet.
Isolated systems are safer when users can come in contact with
conductors, but in a good design users should never come in contact with
an energized conductor. Read that again... users should NEVER come in
contact with an energized conductor.
Flooded batteries require user service, and battery terminals can be
tough to insulate. Most industrial chargers already require some form
of giant transformer. Weight is typically not an issue. So they are
built isolated, it is a safer for essentially no cost and you don't have
to think about insulating the posts.
We EVers have a different problem. Our chargers are mobile, and require
high power levels. That means the isolation transformer gets big and
heavy at 60hz, or requires a more complex design. We have batteries
that often do not have insulated connections. We also tend to show off
our vehicles to untrained individuals (or just do dumb things
ourselves), and energized conductors are more accessible than they
should be.
The non-isolated chargers are going to be the best choice for most
EVers, but it is critical that they understand the dangers involved. (I
think Rich really needs a manual for the charger that explains this)
#1. Never perform maintainence on the battery system while the charger
is connected to AC power.
#2. Bond the chassis to the green wire on the output side of the
charger, or if using a hard mounted AC inlet bond the ground pin
directly to the chassis. Even if the charger is being used offboard no
just connecting the charger to the car with a 2 pin anderson connector.
#3. Use battery terminal covers to reduce the risk of inadvertant
contact with the terminals. They are only $1.50 each from Waytek Wire.
#4. Hard to do but: It might be wise to wire a red warning light in each
battery box to a switch that is activated when the plug is inserted into
the car. Better would be a lockout that prevents the battery box covers
from being opened with the power cord connected. -I think the long
term solution is that batteries should not be user serviceable.
Fortunatly most of our likely replacements for lead acid are sealed.-
#5. Use a GFCI, and test it. (Maybe build in a test button with a built
in resistor that is connected to the packs most positive line and the AC
ground, this should trip a functioning GFCI. The EV1 had a onboard GFCI
contactor inside of the pack that would open if any connection between
the traction pack and frame ground was detected. It would be nice to
see such a device available for hobbyists.
Mark
--- End Message ---
