EV Digest 4251
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Unconventional Liquid Motor Cooling Ideas?
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: First drive around the block in the New Beetle
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Interstate Batteries
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) article: The Vanadium Battery: The Ultimate Energy Storage Solution
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Unconventional Liqued Motor Cooling Ideas?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Unconventional Liquid Motor Cooling Ideas?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EV vendors and mfgs on list. was: sources for motor and controllers
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: E-Meter Blues
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: E-Meter Blues
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: article: The Vanadium Battery: The Ultimate Energy Storage
Solution
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Interstate Batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EVcort battery thoughts
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: E-Meter Blues
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: E-Meter Blues
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: E-Meter Blues
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Unconventional Liquid Motor Cooling Ideas?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: sources for motor and controllers
by "Chris Seeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: E-Meter Blues
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: article: The Vanadium Battery: The Ultimate Energy Storage Solution
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV digest 4250
by Ken Olum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: sources for motor and controllers
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: article: The Vanadium Battery: The Ultimate Energy Storage Solution
by Dave Narby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Depth of Discharge
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: sources for motor and controllers
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
the problem with water (of course) is that it freezes.
Antifreeze (ethylene glycol or propylene glycol) won't
freeze and is non conductive. I think the stuff you
buy at Pep boys probably IS conductive because of the
things they add for corrosion inhibitors etc, but the
pure antifreeze is not.
This is what most of the fuel cells use. They need a
coolant with good heat transfer properties, that won't
freeze and is definitely non conductive since it is
typically in contact with both ends of the stack (400
V or more).
~fortunat
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > But would it be possible to find a non-conductive
> liquid that could
> > be allowed to run throught a live DC motor? How
> about anti-freeze?
> > Is voltage a factor? Might work better at lower
> voltage, like 48vdc.
>
> How about water? Realatively speaking, even
> contaminate it's not that
> conductive. No where near as conductive as
> say...copper for example.
>
> > In particular, I'm thinking that one could place
> an E-Tek inside a
> > sealed housing filled with a liquid which would
> in-and-of-itself
> > have much more heat obsorbsion capacity or thermal
> mass. Sure there
> > would be more loss due to the rotor moving through
> a heavier fluid,
>
> Yeah, a LOT more loss. Not to mention problems with
> cavitation which will
> cause even more loss and probably some damage.
>
>
__________________________________
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Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congratulations!
Keep the battery current low, the undervoltage lockout high, and with a
*good charger and charge profile*, you should enjoy a long battery
life.
It is nice getting full motor current with a low battery current, huh?
Solectria forces kept battery current under 200A with a larger battery,
and that was with a low battery voltage, so you should need less than
that. The battery you picked should be limited to 150A.
I noticed you have some charge control on the PFC-30. Very nice work.
The voltage and current setpoints look different from how we charged
those batteries at Solectria. Contact me offlist if you want and I can
make suggestions if you are interested.
What are you running for tires?
On the stock beetle, the OEM Goodyears do well for rolling resistance
but are VERY loud. The Michelins are quietest.
Seth
On Apr 2, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
I insured the Beetle, strapped in the seat belts and took it out for
its
first drive around the block (about 7km). It works just great. Of
course
there are a lot of minor things to fix and tune, but all was generally
working well (except for the EMeter). Here are some interesting
things:
1. MR2 PS Pump: I have the pump operated by a foot switch. After a
few
off and ons, I just left it on, as the steering is too jerky otherwise.
Turns out that there is more road noise, and I can barely hear the
pump.
2. The Siemens controller had the fan on for most of the time. I need
to
talk to Victor about what are normal operating temperatures for the
drive.
3. I limited the battery current to 60Amps. It provided slow
acceleration,
but still kept up with traffic in the neighbourhood, while driving on
the
flats. I will increase it to 150Amps as I learn more about the
controller.
4. I have no clutch, although I kept the gear shifter (for now). In
town
driving, up to 55kmh (30mph) seems to work just fine in 2nd gear.
Smooth
starts, no jerkiness at all. (I am very pleased about this).
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank You Joe
The Bob Jones was looking for a recommendation- I ask
what type of system. My description may have been off
but there is a difference in recommending for an AC
verses a DC pack.
--- Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You are both correct.
>
> DC drives tend to be lower voltage, therefore to get
> the same watt-hours at
> the lower voltage, the batteries tend to use cells
> with a higher Ahr rating.
>
> AC drives tend to be higher voltage, therefore to
> get the same Watt-Hours at
> the higher voltage, the designers use more lower Ahr
> batteries to get a
> similar weight pack.
>
> Lead acid batteries tend to have very similar energy
> density regardless of
> pack voltage. The AC systems just use more smaller
> cells than the DC systems
> that user fewer larger cells.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Interstate Batteries
>
>
> > > Bob Jones
> > > Are you powering an AC or DC drive? From what I
> have
> > > read on this list it make a difference in the
> > > recommendations. DC drives the higher the AHr
> rate the
> > > father it will go. With AC the higher the
> voltage the
> > > farther it will go. At least that is my
> understanding
> > > of battery choices in reading both the Metric
> Mind and
> > > Electroauo websites and their options of
> drives.
> >
> > Nope, sorry. For range what counts is WattHours,
> that is volts * Amp
> Hours.
> > Simply having higher voltage doesn't give you more
> range unless you
> > maintain or increase the amp hours. i.e a 240V
> 10Ah pack will have far
> > less range than a 120V 30Ah pack in any vehicle.
> AC or DC doesn't matter.
> >
> > In DC drives, high voltage can cause problems with
> arcing on the
> > comutator, so they usually select low voltage and
> high current.
> > AC doesn't have a comutator so this isn't a
> problem and most of the
> > currently available AC drive systems are designed
> to use high voltage (
> > >200V) which improves efficiency slightly.
> >
>
>
Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
http://personals.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We've heard about these batteries (maybe they are really fuel cells)
before, but apparently they are nearing commercial availability (for EV
content, note the picture of the golf car). According to this article
they have a 1:1 energy in to energy out ratio.
link:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/the_vanadium_ba.php
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about using Flouronert. Because of it's extream cost I wouldn't
suggest it, but you can buy surplus removed from super computers.
FC70 is a grade of flouronert (made by 3M) it changes to vapor around
215 degrees C and is used to cool computer boards and to solder surface
mount devices.
I think a pump sprying a mist would provide the best cooling while not
adding to much viscous drag of immersion.
On a lower cost path, The Freedom truck used oil sprayed in to the
motor, collected and cooled with a radiator.
Avoid sharp changes in temp like a spray activated after a set point is
hit and a material that chages phase like water at a low temp. the rapid
thermal contraction will damage the motor over time.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lightning Ryan wrote:
> So, any motor that is currently liquid cooled I'd imagine is similar
> to an ICE, with isolated veins running throught the housing...
Correct.
> But would it be possible to find a non-conductive liquid that could
> be allowed to run through a live DC motor?
Sure. Oil, alcohol, freon, even distilled water is sufficiently
non-conductive.
If the motor has brushes, you'd have to re-think the materials used for
the commutator. The copper/carbon team has been specifically chosen to
work the best in air. If it was submerged in (say) oil, you would
probably find that some other combination of materials was better.
> Is voltage a factor?
Not really. The current a motor uses is so enormous that the
conductivity of even dirty water is trivial in comparison. The real
problem with water (or other liquids) is viscous drag, corrosion, and
what it does to the bearings.
Voltage only becomes a factor if the material you use has poor high
voltage breakdown characteristics (i.e. high voltages cause the liquid
to decompose). This isn't likely with any normal liquid, but it would be
with some cooling gases.
> I'm thinking that one could place an E-Tek inside a sealed housing
> filled with a liquid which would in-and-of-itself have much more
> heat absorbtion capacity or thermal mass.
The big problem with literally submerging the rotor in a liquid is
viscous drag. Most rotors and stators are far from smooth, so the drag
would be pretty high.
> would the additional thermal mass and thus more stable higher
> current capacity be worthwile?
Improved cooling wouldn't change the basic efficiency of a motor, but
would let it run longer at a given power level without overheating.
Thus, it would increase the power-to-weight ratio. This would be good
for motors that must deliver very high power for very short times.
Rocket fuel pumps. Torpedos. Drag racing. That sort of thing.
> So, just how crazy of an idea is this?
It's been done, but it's rather a special case solution. There have been
electric torpedos that cooled their motors with seawater. Corrosive as
all get-out, but how long does a torpedo need to run after all?
There are also cryogenically cooled motors, which use superconducting
wire to minimize loss and get astounding magnetic field strengths.
I think a more practical route (for an Etek motor) would be to replace
atmospheric air cooling with another gas and/or higher pressure. Double
the air pressure, and the same airflow provides double the cooling. Or
change to a better cooling gas. For example, many very large motors and
generators have been hydrogen cooled. The hydrogen gas molecule is the
smallest, and so the most effective at heat transfer and takes the least
amount of power to pump it through narrow spaces. Obviously, you have to
make sure oxygen is excluded!
Another possibility is to pipe a liquid in, and let it vaporize inside
the motor. The liquid-to-gas phase change absorbs a tremendous amount of
heat. Suck the vapor out and recompress it back into liquid with a pump.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello EVDL Folks
Chris Seeley wrote:
I am looking to get started on my EV. Would you folks care to give me some
ideas for motor sources, and controllers?
What combinations are you currently using?
This is really directed to the vendors/manufacturers on the EVDL, but to
answer this question for Chris- "What combinations are you currently
using?", Please take a look at the EV Photo Album.
http://www.evalbum.com
There are photos and detailed descriptions of over 600 EVs of all types
there.
There are so many new folks on this list, it seems that the EV related
manufacturers and vendors who are on this list should be listed on their own
list. :^D
Maybe something that is linked to when folks sign up.
There is such a valuable resource here and folks just coming in have no
idea.
Here are just a few first names that come to mind right off... (some may or
may not still be on-list)
Rich, Roderick, Brian, Otmar, Rick, Victor, Mike and Shari, Randy, Damon,
Ken, Bob, Seth, Russ, etc....
You all know who you are (or at least I would like to think that you know
who you are, there are a couple I am not sure about :^)
IMHO, as the price of fuel continues to hit record highs, and the number of
folks seeking EV info continues to increase, it seems only logical that
folks from EV related companies would want it to be known that they are a
continuing presence on this list.
And the folks surfing in anew will go... "Oh Wow!" when they see who is a
participant here and what a potentially valuable resource this list is.
So... whadda y'all think? Should there be a readily accessable listing and
linking to of the EV vendors/mfgs who participate on this list?
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isn't one side of the emeter shunt at (for lack of a better word) pack
ground? I.e. the same potential as the voltage divider. Wouldn't
swapping leads short out something?
I'm trying to visualize this.. I'm seeing pack ground connected to
prescaller and then to emeter. Normally one side of the shunt should also
be connected to this point (and probably is at the high current wiring
point), however you now have the sense wire from the emeter - that
normally connects to the other side of the shunt- also connected to pack
ground, while the pack ground lead for the shunt is now connected to the
sense side of the shunt.
I'm thining that's what happened.
For what it's worth, I recall a few times my emeter displaying negative
current flow when it wasn't, didn't effect the operation of the emeter
though, just the display.
> I replaced my blown E-Meter with a new unit today. I quadrupled checked
> the
> wiring. Can you guess?? It worked! So I programmed it, then tested it,
> and I realized the current was reading backwards.
>
> So I shut everything down, then swapped the leads on pins 2 and 3 (going
> to
> the shunt). I checked the connections again then powered it up. Nothing,
> blank, do display of any kind.
>
> I tested all the connections with a volt meter (carefully), and the
> E-Meter
> has power, ground and voltage from the presale.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> thanks
> Don
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are not able to short the EMeter by reversing the current sense leads
(at worst this is only a 50mV voltage drop). Also it says in the manual,
under troubleshooting on page 43, "Current Polarity Reversed - shunt leads
are reversed". It simply reads in reversed (like your meter).
My guess is that it blew up its brains on a noisy power up.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: April 3, 2005 10:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: E-Meter Blues
Isn't one side of the emeter shunt at (for lack of a better word) pack
ground? I.e. the same potential as the voltage divider. Wouldn't swapping
leads short out something?
I'm trying to visualize this.. I'm seeing pack ground connected to
prescaller and then to emeter. Normally one side of the shunt should also
be connected to this point (and probably is at the high current wiring
point), however you now have the sense wire from the emeter - that normally
connects to the other side of the shunt- also connected to pack ground,
while the pack ground lead for the shunt is now connected to the sense side
of the shunt.
I'm thining that's what happened.
For what it's worth, I recall a few times my emeter displaying negative
current flow when it wasn't, didn't effect the operation of the emeter
though, just the display.
> I replaced my blown E-Meter with a new unit today. I quadrupled
> checked the wiring. Can you guess?? It worked! So I programmed it,
> then tested it, and I realized the current was reading backwards.
>
> So I shut everything down, then swapped the leads on pins 2 and 3
> (going to the shunt). I checked the connections again then powered it
> up. Nothing, blank, do display of any kind.
>
> I tested all the connections with a volt meter (carefully), and the
> E-Meter has power, ground and voltage from the presale.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> thanks
> Don
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> We've heard about these batteries (maybe they are really fuel cells)
> before, but apparently they are nearing commercial availability (for EV
> content, note the picture of the golf car). According to this article
> they have a 1:1 energy in to energy out ratio.
>
> link:
> http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/the_vanadium_ba.php
>
Umm, perhaps you should go back and reread the article. It does NOT say
they are 100% energy efficient. It says that you can safely discharge the
batteries to 100% DOD and do it repeatedly without damaging the batteries.
Asside from the fact that 100% efficient batteries would probably violate
one or more laws of physics, this particular battery uses Pumps. They
HAVE to use some energy, where does it come from?
Granted, the author did sort of imply that the batteries were 100%
efficient, but then again I get the impression that the author doesn't
really understand the batteries all that well anyway,
i.e. "In very basic terms (which is all I can manage after trying to read
the manual)..."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Peter, I think your 2nd sentence is potentially misleading (or at least
> I misinterpreted it). Having higher voltage will give you more range if
> you keep the same amp hours. (Compared to a lower voltage pack with the
> same amp hours)
My second sentence says exactly the same thing as your second sentence, I
just said it from the other point of view.
I.e Having higher voltage will give you more range if you keep same amp
hours =(more or less) Higher voltage won't give you more range /unless/
you keep same amphours.
Regardless, voltage alone tells you NOTHING about range.
>
> From a practical standpoint, the Ah capacity of many batteries is such
> that adding voltage adds capacity, athough it may not scale exactly.
I can build a 600V pack of AA batteries right now, but my truck wouldn't
get very far on them (assuming I had a 600V motor/controller).
WattHours is what gives you range and (roughly speaking) watts hours is
related to weight.
If you want to keep the weight the same when you go up in voltage, then
you pretty much HAVE to go with smaller batteries (assuming you don't
change chemistries).
If one wants to get technical, smaller batteries tend to have LESS
watthours per pound, because they waste more weight on packaging and
terminals which contribute zip to you watthours.
>
> One thing I might point out is that vehicle to vehicle variations in
> system setup (weight, drag, alignment, drive system) can result in a
> 10Ah 240V system having the same *range* as a 120V 30Ah system (with
> 2/3 the energy), but it proably couldn't exceed it. And it could go the
> other way, too.
Yes, qite true. I intended my comments to indicate "all else being
equal". I.e. someone trying to determine which system to choose for a
particular vehicle is obviously going to have the same base vehicle
afterward regardless of which drive system they have. This means the only
real variable (after selecting drive system) is the finished weight.
Given that, it's highly unlikely that the two above mentioned packs would
even be close when it comes to range.
>
> Seth
>
> On Apr 2, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>>> Bob Jones
>>> Are you powering an AC or DC drive? From what I have
>>> read on this list it make a difference in the
>>> recommendations. DC drives the higher the AHr rate the
>>> father it will go. With AC the higher the voltage the
>>> farther it will go. At least that is my understanding
>>> of battery choices in reading both the Metric Mind and
>>> Electroauo websites and their options of drives.
>>
>> Nope, sorry. For range what counts is WattHours, that is volts * Amp
>> Hours.
>> Simply having higher voltage doesn't give you more range unless you
>> maintain or increase the amp hours. i.e a 240V 10Ah pack will have far
>> less range than a 120V 30Ah pack in any vehicle. AC or DC doesn't
>> matter.
>>
>> In DC drives, high voltage can cause problems with arcing on the
>> comutator, so they usually select low voltage and high current.
>> AC doesn't have a comutator so this isn't a problem and most of the
>> currently available AC drive systems are designed to use high voltage (
>>> 200V) which improves efficiency slightly.
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 3:14 PM -0800 4-1-05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Isn't he running floodeds?
No, those are gels. I believe they are Sonnenschein DF 6-160. They
are a standard T125 footprint. It's going to be hard to beat them in
that application.
I think it's possible that they will recover, IIRC the controller
undervoltage cutout is pretty conservative.
Had the performance dropped much? Did you make the trip under 60 mph?
I drove the car 22 miles on a test drive at about 65 mph and the
batteries were holding up well for that.
I hope he knows about the local AVCON charge stations, they can help
when he's trying to push the range.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The frustrating E-meter strikes again. I'm sorry to hear of your
troubles, I doubt it helps but many of us have been there before.
At 8:05 AM -0700 4-3-05, Don Cameron wrote:
I disconnected the EMeter, and checked all the wiring again. Note: I am
using a pack 24V tap as suggested on page 50 of the operating guide.
Oh. That can be very dangerous to the meter!
If any part of the circuit between the E-Meter ground and the battery
tap opens up, then any phantom load on the pack puts a negative
voltage equal to the pack voltage minus the tap voltage on the meter.
Negative 300V will blow the meter quite quickly.
Besides, the E-meter is a power hog and a tap like that can cause
quite some pack imbalance pretty quickly.
A very simple rule of thumb:
Don't tap the pack for anything other than BMS systems which are made
to connect mid pack!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Otmar, I will use a DC-DC. As for the meter, I will send it in for
repair (grumble, grumble)
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Otmar
Sent: April 3, 2005 11:39 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: E-Meter Blues
The frustrating E-meter strikes again. I'm sorry to hear of your troubles, I
doubt it helps but many of us have been there before.
At 8:05 AM -0700 4-3-05, Don Cameron wrote:
>I disconnected the EMeter, and checked all the wiring again. Note: I am
>using a pack 24V tap as suggested on page 50 of the operating guide.
Oh. That can be very dangerous to the meter!
If any part of the circuit between the E-Meter ground and the battery tap
opens up, then any phantom load on the pack puts a negative voltage equal to
the pack voltage minus the tap voltage on the meter.
Negative 300V will blow the meter quite quickly.
Besides, the E-meter is a power hog and a tap like that can cause quite some
pack imbalance pretty quickly.
A very simple rule of thumb:
Don't tap the pack for anything other than BMS systems which are made to
connect mid pack!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
>
> Thanks Lee,
>
> I disconnected the EMeter, and checked all the wiring again. Note: I am
> using a pack 24V tap as suggested on page 50 of the operating guide. I made
> sure the ground of the Emeter is the same ground as the 24V negative. The
> measured values of the connections are as follows:
>
> pin 1) Black (negative) from prescaler
> pin 2) From battery side of shunt to negative - 0V
> pin 3) From load side of shunt to negative - 0V
> pin 4) From positive side of prescaler - 70V
> pin 5) From pack 24v tap -25.4V
I wonder if you have applied reverse voltage to the positive supply
input, and killed the internal DC/DC converter. Here is the circuit you
may have had at some point:
_____ _______
+240v___|__ | /E-meter\
| | | | |
| > | | 4 5 |
| > | \_|___|_/
| |__|_______| |_______+24v
| | |
| > |
| > | prescaler
|__|__|
|
(open)
Pin 4 is the voltage sense input of the E-meter. Pin 5 is +Power for the
E-meter. With all the other wires disconnected from the E-meter and
prescaler, this puts +240v (thru a resistor) on pin 4 and +24v on the
power pin. The meter sees 24v - 240v = *negative* 216 volts on its
positive input!
The same effect could be achieved by leaving the prescaler's black wire
connected to the E-meter, but no other negative wires. This puts +240v
(again with a resistor in series) on the E-meter's negative input, and
+24v on pin 5, or a *negative* 216v on its positive input.
The current is limited, but the voltage is so high that it may have
killed the E-meter's internal power supply.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 03:59:46 -0700, Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Well, the list has been sorta slow, a meer 50 messages/day, so...
>You Guessed it! It's me again, with yet another hair brained idea..
>
>So, any motor that is currently liquid cooled I'de imagin is similar
>to an ICE, with isolated veines running throught the housing... ok..
>
>But would it be possible to find a non-conductive liquid that could
>be allowed to run throught a live DC motor? How about anti-freeze?
>Is voltage a factor? Might work better at lower voltage, like 48vdc.
Oh, that would be wonderful if all you want to do is heat the fluid.
That's what spinning objects in fluids does. In fact, the SuperFlow
automotive dynamometer absorber does little more than that - spin
discs in water. This should be kinda obvious to anyone who has ever
been in the water.
There are certain types of motors that use a submerged stator and
rotor. Mostly submersible pumps. However, these motors use long and
small diameter rotors with low surface velocities plus the rotor is
designed to be very hydrodynamic. In these cases, the benefits of
immersion (such as keeping the housing from leaking or collapsing
because of hydrostatic pressure.) outweighs the efficiency costs.
Very large machines such as a central power plant generator use
pressurized hydrogen for cooling. Hydrogen has the second lowest
frictional losses (second only to helium) which reduces windage losses
compared to air, is cheap and is an excellent heat conductor as gases
go. A generator is typically pressurized to about 75 psi. Very
complex labyrinth seals are used on the shafts and still some hydrogen
leakage is acceptable. A tube truck full every few months.
Obviously hydrogen isn't practical for EVs except maybe except for
hydrogen fuel cell powered cars. What state of the art AC motors are
doing with oil and water cooling is about as good as it gets.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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Tom,
To sum it up, I am planning on owning an EV. Either I convert an Ice, or I
build one from scratch.
My plan so far is to try to find a car for next to nothing, and pull the
engine. Sell the engine to someone, or the Junk Yard. And then as I get
the cash available, I'll get-er-done.One step at a time. But I have a lot
of questions. Like..Is it OK to use an automatic transmission or should it
be manual?
There are a lot of points that have me a little confused, so right now I'm
just taking in info...
For example, it seems that you folks are taking a 150 HP Ice out of a car,
and then putting in a 10-20HP electric motor in? That just confuses the
heck out of me. If that car needed the 150 Horses that the ICE was supposed
to provide how can you add the extra weight of LOTS of batteries, and only
need the 10-20 HP that the electric motor dishes out..
Thanks again for all the replies, both on list and off. They all have been
a big help.
Chris Seeley
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom Shay
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 12:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: sources for motor and controllers
Tell us what you are planning. Then people can make specific
suggestions for motors, controllers, etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Seeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 7:13 PM
Subject: sources for motor and controllers
>I am looking to get started on my EV. Would you folks care to give me some
> ideas for motor sources, and controllers?
>
>
>
> What combinations are you currently using?
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Did you by any chance have the charger hooked up?
Reason I ask is that I learned the hard way that the absolute maximum
input voltage to the power lead is 24 volts. This is really a 12 volt
instrument. The instruction manual lies. I confirmed this with a
conversation with a tech at Xantrex.
I smoked a brand new E-meter on my GoBig Scooter by hooking the power
in to the whole 36 volt pack. The manual said 40 volts max. It lied.
The meter instantly went blank just like yours. Xantrex repaired it
for me at no charge because of what the manual states. The work order
said that they replaced a cap and a diode.
I'm going to bet that there is a one shot overvoltage protective
device in the unit, that it shorted and blew the diode, probably as
designed. Or the "diode" was the one-shot device. The first
generation Escort radar detectors were designed this way. Hit 'em
with over 14 volts and the one-shot thing shorted and blew a pico-fuse
on the PCB. A $50 service fee got the fuse and the one-shot replaced.
I looked inside my E-meter before sending it back and could not find
any such device.
Anyway, the person I talked to at Xantrex is:
Randy Johnson
Technical Service Analyst
Customer Service Operations
Xantrex Technology Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Website: www.xantrex.com
T:360-435-8826 Ext.2232
F:360-925-5143
On Sun, 3 Apr 2005 08:05:42 -0700, "Don Cameron"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Thanks Lee,
>
>I disconnected the EMeter, and checked all the wiring again. Note: I am
>using a pack 24V tap as suggested on page 50 of the operating guide. I made
>sure the ground of the Emeter is the same ground as the 24V negative. The
>measured values of the connections are as follows:
>
>pin 1) Black (negative) from prescaler
>pin 2) From battery side of shunt to negative - 0V
>pin 3) From load side of shunt to negative - 0V
>pin 4) From positive side of prescaler - 70V
>pin 5) From pack 24v tap -25.4V
>
>Then I reconnected it and triple checked against the schematic and the
>tightness of the connections. Fuses are good as well.
>
>-- There are no lights of any kind, I try pressing the switches, nothing
>works. It is as if there is no power getting to the meter.
>
>If I was to bench test this, is there a way I can do it without having to
>use a shunt? Maybe not connect the current sense lines, or simply ground
>them?
>
>
>Victoria, BC, Canada
>
>See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
>www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Lee Hart
>Sent: April 3, 2005 8:36 AM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: E-Meter Blues
>
>Don Cameron wrote:
>> 1) when I flipped the wires for the current connection, I did not
>> do it at the fuses, I simply swapped them at the back of the
>> meter (pins 2 & 3).
>>
>> 2) there is absolutely no sign of any light on the meter. No LEDs,
>> no digits, nothing :-(
>
>Hmm... it's hard to analyze this sort of problem without seeing it.
>
>Could it be that when you disconnected the shunt wires, you also
>disconnected the prescaler's ground? This would open the low side of the
>voltage divider in it, and put a tremendous voltage on the voltage sense
>input. If this killed the voltage sense input, the E-meter might be working
>but thinks it sees zero volts. If I recall correctly, some E-meters blank
>the display when they see anything less than ~10v.
>
>Another possibility is that something unrelated also got disconnected, and
>you didn't notice. For instance, the + or - wire from your 12v DC/DC
>converter that powers the E-meter may have fallen off, or the DC/DC itself
>isn't getting power any more. (You *do* have an isolated 12vDC/DC powering
>nothing but the E-meter, don't you?)
>--
>"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
>citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!"
>-- Margaret Mead
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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--- Begin Message ---
Uh, you did notice the April 1st date in the headline, didn't you?
On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 12:08:33 -0400, Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>We've heard about these batteries (maybe they are really fuel cells)
>before, but apparently they are nearing commercial availability (for EV
>content, note the picture of the golf car). According to this article
>they have a 1:1 energy in to energy out ratio.
>
>link:
> http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/the_vanadium_ba.php
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
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From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 20:17:52 -0500
The moderator is strongly antispam, and consequently makes it
something of a challenge to sign up. When you request membership,
you'll receive an email which requires you to fill in your vital
stats and even write a mini-essay on why you want to be a member.
I've found that you pretty much have to reply using a Yahoo Mail
account for the moderator's filtering software not to reject you.
I don't use Yahoo Mail and my request to be on the Force list was
accepted. I agree, however, that the petition is obnoxious. I don't
mind having a system to keep out spammers and make sure that people
understand the rules, but I think the repeated threats of what will
happen to you if you make a tiny misstep are inappropriate.
Hmm, come to that, I wonder if there's any interest in a Solectria Force
mailing list that isn't quite so dependent on Yahoo and its endless ads ...
I hate Yahoo and would be happy to host a Force list here with Mailman.
However, I hate multiple lists for small communities more than I hate
Yahoo, so I am against it unless the existing list owner and members
would like to relocate the whole list.
Ken Olum
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depends on the auto being converted. What are you converting?
LR...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Seeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 8:13 PM
Subject: sources for motor and controllers
I am looking to get started on my EV. Would you folks care to give me some
ideas for motor sources, and controllers?
What combinations are you currently using?
TIA
Chris Seeley
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Read the article, they note that it was released on April 1st and *is
not* a joke.
Considering that this type of battery technology was patented in 1978,
I'm starting to wonder if this list *should* be political... If only
for the purposes of becoming a lobbying group! (IMO This is not a
Democrap or Republiclown issue - it easily spans both flavors of
administrations).
-Dave
Neon John wrote:
Uh, you did notice the April 1st date in the headline, didn't you?
On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 12:08:33 -0400, Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
We've heard about these batteries (maybe they are really fuel cells)
before, but apparently they are nearing commercial availability (for EV
content, note the picture of the golf car). According to this article
they have a 1:1 energy in to energy out ratio.
link:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/the_vanadium_ba.php
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With my EMeter not working, plus not knowing my vehicle and battery energy
efficiency, I have no idea as a drive what the depth of discharge my battery
is running. The manufacturer states with an open circuit voltage test if
the battery is at 12.85V (Gel Cell) the battery is 100% full, and at 12.35V
the battery is 50% full. However it says I have to wait 24 hours before
reading the voltage.
Does anyone have a more immediate way of measuring the state of charge?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
Many of these questions can be answered with the book "Convert It", by Mike
Brown.
A 20-30 hp motor is all you need primarily because when you take a 120 hp
engine and attach oil pump, water pump, alternator, etc. you've now lost quite
a bit of that hp. Also, the combustion engine is inherently inefficient (lots
of waste heat and noise). EV motors OTOH, are incredibly efficient, so the
energy goes into making the wheels turn.
I use a DCP 600 amp controller, although my last rig was a Curtis 500A
controller. I use a 8" Advance DC motor, and the last rig was 9" ADC.
Hope this helps!
PS, video of conversion process available.
peace,
Chris Seeley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Tom,
To sum it up, I am planning on owning an EV. Either I convert an Ice, or I
build one from scratch.
My plan so far is to try to find a car for next to nothing, and pull the
engine. Sell the engine to someone, or the Junk Yard. And then as I get
the cash available, I'll get-er-done.One step at a time. But I have a lot
of questions. Like..Is it OK to use an automatic transmission or should it
be manual?
There are a lot of points that have me a little confused, so right now I'm
just taking in info...
For example, it seems that you folks are taking a 150 HP Ice out of a car,
and then putting in a 10-20HP electric motor in? That just confuses the
heck out of me. If that car needed the 150 Horses that the ICE was supposed
to provide how can you add the extra weight of LOTS of batteries, and only
need the 10-20 HP that the electric motor dishes out..
Thanks again for all the replies, both on list and off. They all have been
a big help.
Chris Seeley
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom Shay
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 12:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: sources for motor and controllers
Tell us what you are planning. Then people can make specific
suggestions for motors, controllers, etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Seeley"
To: "EVDL"
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 7:13 PM
Subject: sources for motor and controllers
>I am looking to get started on my EV. Would you folks care to give me some
> ideas for motor sources, and controllers?
>
>
>
> What combinations are you currently using?
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
---------------------------------
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Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
--- End Message ---
