EV Digest 4252
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: sources for motor and controllers
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Garage sale find
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: article: The Vanadium Battery: The Ultimate Energy Storage Solution
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Depth of Discharge
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Depth of Discharge
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Solectria Force Yahoo group (was EV digest 4250)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Depth of Discharge
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: E-Meter Blues
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Electravan Connector upgrade causes more problems.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: E-Meter Blues
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: E-Meter Blues
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: sources for motor and controllers
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Sparrow on ebay
by Gravity Girl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Solectria Force Yahoo group (was EV digest 4250)
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Clutchless
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: article: The Vanadium Battery: The Ultimate Energy Storage Solution
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Vegas ev race
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Anderson Power connectors
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) AC/DC motor questions
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) How many Wh does your vehicle average?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Unconventional Liquid Motor Cooling Ideas?
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Questions newcomers ask/ need to be asked
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: How many Wh does your vehicle average?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: How many Wh does your vehicle average?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) NEDRA LV Camaro Challenge
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Questions newcomers ask/ need to be asked
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
27) Re: How many Wh does your vehicle average?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: How many Wh does your vehicle average?
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: How many Wh does your vehicle average?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: How many Wh does your vehicle average?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: How many Wh does your vehicle average?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) Re: How many Wh does your vehicle average?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> My plan so far is to try to find a car for next to nothing, and pull the
> engine. Sell the engine to someone, or the Junk Yard. And then as I get
> the cash available, I'll get-er-done.One step at a time. But I have a lot
> of questions. Like..Is it OK to use an automatic transmission or should it
> be manual?
it's possible to convert an automatic, but you will typically get more
range from a manual and it will be easier to convert.
> For example, it seems that you folks are taking a 150 HP Ice out of a car,
> and then putting in a 10-20HP electric motor in? That just confuses the
> heck out of me. If that car needed the 150 Horses that the ICE was
> supposed
> to provide how can you add the extra weight of LOTS of batteries, and only
> need the 10-20 HP that the electric motor dishes out..
A little confusing, but the answer is simple.
ICEs are rated for their MAXIMUM HP. Electric motors are typically rated
at the CONTINUOUS HP, i.e. how much power they can produce day in and day
out without over heating.
A 20 hp cont rated DC motor can probably produce 30-40 hp for 1 hour,
50-60 hp for 10-20 minutes, and over 300 hp for 30 seconds.
The typical car only needs about 10 hp to cruise at 50 mph, so a 20 hp
electric motor is plenty to cruise at 60-65 for far longer than your
batteries will hold up. Need 100+ hp to quickly pass the
jerk-on-cellphone? No problem, the motor can handle it for a couple
minutes and you'll need far less than that to pass the guy.
FWIW My pickup is/was limited by how much power I could draw out of the
batteries (8V GC batteries can't put out much current). The power output
from the batteries was about 30 kw (40hp) which made the mechanical output
from my motor about 24 kw (32 hp).
Acceleration was a little anemic, but it could do 70 mph...if you had
enough flat road.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I ran accross 2 electric scooters at a garage sale. the deck says "the
tank" e-scooter
They have a 350W 36 volt motor and a tiny black box inside that must be
the controller. Loks like I will need to find a charger.
They're are 3 12V 12ah batteries that are sealed and have a green
plastic plate covering access to the cells which look closed off with
some kind of sealer.
I couldn't pass them up at $5 each. Anyone know what they are? I know
nothing about scooters. I mean are they junk, good brand, gel-cells?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At last check 1 problem with that battery technology was dismal paower
and energy density making it really large and heavy for mobile use. The
upside being you could exchange eletrolyte in min to recharge at a station.
Another was loss of capacity through the membrane which was exacerbated
at higher loads and gave a high self discharge if operating at low
currents., Kinda like a transistor Off and ON are ok, put 1/10 on is an
energy hog
Have they solved those 2 problem area's
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Under a 100A load those batteries are at maximum safe DOD at 11.0V per
module, or 286V for you. You have a calibrated DMM right? (Not really
kidding here) And a DC current clamp? A Fluke i410 would be fine for
you, some others have LEMs.
Seth
On Apr 3, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
With my EMeter not working, plus not knowing my vehicle and battery
energy
efficiency, I have no idea as a drive what the depth of discharge my
battery
is running. The manufacturer states with an open circuit voltage test
if
the battery is at 12.85V (Gel Cell) the battery is 100% full, and at
12.35V
the battery is 50% full. However it says I have to wait 24 hours
before
reading the voltage.
Does anyone have a more immediate way of measuring the state of charge?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK thanks Seth. I have a DMM, plus I will also program the controller for
this number.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Seth Allen
Sent: April 3, 2005 2:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Depth of Discharge
Under a 100A load those batteries are at maximum safe DOD at 11.0V per
module, or 286V for you. You have a calibrated DMM right? (Not really
kidding here) And a DC current clamp? A Fluke i410 would be fine for you,
some others have LEMs.
Seth
On Apr 3, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
> With my EMeter not working, plus not knowing my vehicle and battery
> energy efficiency, I have no idea as a drive what the depth of
> discharge my battery is running. The manufacturer states with an open
> circuit voltage test if the battery is at 12.85V (Gel Cell) the
> battery is 100% full, and at 12.35V the battery is 50% full. However
> it says I have to wait 24 hours before reading the voltage.
>
> Does anyone have a more immediate way of measuring the state of charge?
>
> thanks
> Don
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I subscribe to several list on yahoo, and rarely need to visit web site, as
I just have yahoo send email to me (just like EVDL), then a few inbox rules
to organize them. I will say though, I sure like the search capability on
the web, I wish we had this for EVDL.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ken Olum
Sent: April 3, 2005 12:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 4250
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 20:17:52 -0500
The moderator is strongly antispam, and consequently makes it
something of a challenge to sign up. When you request membership,
you'll receive an email which requires you to fill in your vital
stats and even write a mini-essay on why you want to be a member.
I've found that you pretty much have to reply using a Yahoo Mail
account for the moderator's filtering software not to reject you.
I don't use Yahoo Mail and my request to be on the Force list was accepted.
I agree, however, that the petition is obnoxious. I don't mind having a
system to keep out spammers and make sure that people understand the rules,
but I think the repeated threats of what will happen to you if you make a
tiny misstep are inappropriate.
Hmm, come to that, I wonder if there's any interest in a Solectria Force
mailing list that isn't quite so dependent on Yahoo and its endless ads
...
I hate Yahoo and would be happy to host a Force list here with Mailman.
However, I hate multiple lists for small communities more than I hate Yahoo,
so I am against it unless the existing list owner and members would like to
relocate the whole list.
Ken Olum
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's under load, so at rest that number is far too low- just a
reminder.
Seth
On Apr 3, 2005, at 7:02 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
OK thanks Seth. I have a DMM, plus I will also program the controller
for
this number.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Seth Allen
Sent: April 3, 2005 2:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Depth of Discharge
Under a 100A load those batteries are at maximum safe DOD at 11.0V per
module, or 286V for you. You have a calibrated DMM right? (Not really
kidding here) And a DC current clamp? A Fluke i410 would be fine for
you,
some others have LEMs.
Seth
On Apr 3, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
With my EMeter not working, plus not knowing my vehicle and battery
energy efficiency, I have no idea as a drive what the depth of
discharge my battery is running. The manufacturer states with an open
circuit voltage test if the battery is at 12.85V (Gel Cell) the
battery is 100% full, and at 12.35V the battery is 50% full. However
it says I have to wait 24 hours before reading the voltage.
Does anyone have a more immediate way of measuring the state of
charge?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The voltage on pin 4 looks suspicious. I thought the prescaler brought the
sense voltage below 50 volts and you state it is 70 volts. That may have
blown something.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 8:05 AM
Subject: RE: E-Meter Blues
> Thanks Lee,
>
> I disconnected the EMeter, and checked all the wiring again. Note: I am
> using a pack 24V tap as suggested on page 50 of the operating guide. I
made
> sure the ground of the Emeter is the same ground as the 24V negative. The
> measured values of the connections are as follows:
>
> pin 1) Black (negative) from prescaler
> pin 2) From battery side of shunt to negative - 0V
> pin 3) From load side of shunt to negative - 0V
> pin 4) From positive side of prescaler - 70V
> pin 5) From pack 24v tap -25.4V
>
> Then I reconnected it and triple checked against the schematic and the
> tightness of the connections. Fuses are good as well.
>
> -- There are no lights of any kind, I try pressing the switches, nothing
> works. It is as if there is no power getting to the meter.
>
> If I was to bench test this, is there a way I can do it without having to
> use a shunt? Maybe not connect the current sense lines, or simply ground
> them?
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: April 3, 2005 8:36 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: E-Meter Blues
>
> Don Cameron wrote:
> > 1) when I flipped the wires for the current connection, I did not
> > do it at the fuses, I simply swapped them at the back of the
> > meter (pins 2 & 3).
> >
> > 2) there is absolutely no sign of any light on the meter. No LEDs,
> > no digits, nothing :-(
>
> Hmm... it's hard to analyze this sort of problem without seeing it.
>
> Could it be that when you disconnected the shunt wires, you also
> disconnected the prescaler's ground? This would open the low side of the
> voltage divider in it, and put a tremendous voltage on the voltage sense
> input. If this killed the voltage sense input, the E-meter might be
working
> but thinks it sees zero volts. If I recall correctly, some E-meters blank
> the display when they see anything less than ~10v.
>
> Another possibility is that something unrelated also got disconnected, and
> you didn't notice. For instance, the + or - wire from your 12v DC/DC
> converter that powers the E-meter may have fallen off, or the DC/DC itself
> isn't getting power any more. (You *do* have an isolated 12vDC/DC powering
> nothing but the E-meter, don't you?)
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!"
> -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I upgraded the negative end connector to the controller that melted a post
on the last battery in the string on my Electravan 750. Big honking wire
and connectors. Runs cool even while hill climbing. Now the connector to
the disconnect is hotter as well as the positive side and all the battery
connections in the back box. Darn. Ohms law predicted this. I suspect all
the connections are loose and I need to replace the positive lug and cable.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought the same, however this is the same voltage that I had for my
other prescaler. The 70V is measured is open circuit voltage. When I
measure this voltage when connected to the e-meter, it reads at approx 30V.
I suspect the prescaler is a voltage divider and needs the load of the
E-Meter to register correctly.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: April 3, 2005 4:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: E-Meter Blues
The voltage on pin 4 looks suspicious. I thought the prescaler brought the
sense voltage below 50 volts and you state it is 70 volts. That may have
blown something.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 8:05 AM
Subject: RE: E-Meter Blues
> Thanks Lee,
>
> I disconnected the EMeter, and checked all the wiring again. Note: I am
> using a pack 24V tap as suggested on page 50 of the operating guide. I
made
> sure the ground of the Emeter is the same ground as the 24V negative. The
> measured values of the connections are as follows:
>
> pin 1) Black (negative) from prescaler
> pin 2) From battery side of shunt to negative - 0V
> pin 3) From load side of shunt to negative - 0V
> pin 4) From positive side of prescaler - 70V
> pin 5) From pack 24v tap -25.4V
>
> Then I reconnected it and triple checked against the schematic and the
> tightness of the connections. Fuses are good as well.
>
> -- There are no lights of any kind, I try pressing the switches, nothing
> works. It is as if there is no power getting to the meter.
>
> If I was to bench test this, is there a way I can do it without having to
> use a shunt? Maybe not connect the current sense lines, or simply ground
> them?
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: April 3, 2005 8:36 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: E-Meter Blues
>
> Don Cameron wrote:
> > 1) when I flipped the wires for the current connection, I did not
> > do it at the fuses, I simply swapped them at the back of the
> > meter (pins 2 & 3).
> >
> > 2) there is absolutely no sign of any light on the meter. No LEDs,
> > no digits, nothing :-(
>
> Hmm... it's hard to analyze this sort of problem without seeing it.
>
> Could it be that when you disconnected the shunt wires, you also
> disconnected the prescaler's ground? This would open the low side of the
> voltage divider in it, and put a tremendous voltage on the voltage sense
> input. If this killed the voltage sense input, the E-meter might be
working
> but thinks it sees zero volts. If I recall correctly, some E-meters blank
> the display when they see anything less than ~10v.
>
> Another possibility is that something unrelated also got disconnected, and
> you didn't notice. For instance, the + or - wire from your 12v DC/DC
> converter that powers the E-meter may have fallen off, or the DC/DC itself
> isn't getting power any more. (You *do* have an isolated 12vDC/DC powering
> nothing but the E-meter, don't you?)
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!"
> -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> I thought the same, however this is the same voltage that I had for my
> other prescaler. The 70V is measured is open circuit voltage.
It still sounds wrong. The 500v prescaler is a 10:1 voltage divider. You
shouldn't see 70v on its output even when it is not connected to the
E-meter.
The prescaler also has (or had when I opened mine) a zener diode across
its output, so even worst-case the voltage couldn't exceed about 50v
(even if you put 1000 volts in).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Seeley wrote:
To sum it up, I am planning on owning an EV. Either I convert an Ice, or I
build one from scratch.
Or... the other option that hasn't been mentioned but can be the best deal
by far-
Buy someone else's aborted project. EVs can be found as complete conversions
needing batteries. Many times they are being sold for considerably less than
the cost of components used to convert.
This is a list of "for sale" sites-
http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/
http://www.eaasv.org/
http://www.eaaev.org/
http://www.evadc.org/for_sale..html
http://www.phoenixeaa.com/
http://www.nbeaa.org/sale.htm
http://home.att.net/~NCSDCA/EVAoSD/forsale.htm
http://neeaa.org/forsale.htm
http://www.lveva.org/For_Sale/for_sale.html
http://www.oeva.org/forsale/
HTH!
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
original owner sparrow on ebay, based in east bay, ca.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4538983565
Looks like it is in good condition. As cool as they look, I'd really
love a 2 seater not a sparrow.
-Cristin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> I will say though, I sure like the search capability on
> the web, I wish we had this for EVDL.
Get a Gmail account, then you can check the list using a web browser.
They just upgraded the account size from 1 gig to 2 gigs and 55 megs
worth of storage space.
Then you can search the list using Googles search engine.
The account is free. Sign up to the list using it and your current
account and give it a try.
http://gmail.google.com/ or http://isnoop.net/gmail/
http://www.evdl.org/
The built in spell checker is nice too..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Ryan - I took the old clutch plate spline out, had it machined down
slightly, bought a chain drive coupling that fit the motor shaft (ADC 9")
and had the other side of the coupling bored out to fit the spline receiver,
then inserted and welded the spline receiver into the chain drive coupling.
Nice solid fit, and it works well - just enough flex to not have an
alignment problem, but solid enough to hold up under the torque. Of course,
this wouldn't work for drag racers!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Clutchless
> I like this idea. No clutches and flywheels to wear out, less
> expensive, and less rotating mass. I still want to use all the gears
> though. I think that won't be a problem right? Or will the weight of
> the spinning motor coupled to the transmission accelerate wear on the
> syncros compared to if it only had the clutch disc spinning when
> shifting? How fast does an electric motor spin down?
>
> Any off the shelf ways to couple the output shaft of the motor to the
> transmission input shaft? What method is used to couple to the motor
> shaft?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
At last check 1 problem with that battery technology was dismal paower
and energy density making it really large and heavy for mobile use.
The upside being you could exchange eletrolyte in min to recharge at a
station.
Another was loss of capacity through the membrane which was
exacerbated at higher loads and gave a high self discharge if
operating at low currents., Kinda like a transistor Off and ON are ok,
put 1/10 on is an energy hog
**
Have they solved those 2 problem area's
I don't really know, from time to time I like to send in articles that I
think may be of interest.
There is a page with some technical information:
http://www.vrbpower.com/vrb_power.html
Note to Peter VanDerwal:
you are right the article didn't say 1:1 energy in/out. that was my
interpretation of what I thought was said, the table on the page above
says 98% efficiency in/out.
For power density comparison you might look at the Lead Acid Comparison.pdf:
http://www.vrbpower.com/pdfs/VRB-ESS%20%20%20Lead%20Acid%20Comparison.pdf
They claim 166 Wh/kg versus 370 Wh/kg for Lead Acid, so yes, this
appears to be fairly low power, but at the same time they also claim up
to 13,000 charge/discharge cycles, which is interesting, if nothing else.
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) h:(905)279-5885 c:(416)892-5885
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is the vegas race friday and saturday? Is there a good motel close by
/
Larry Cronk
72 Datsun Elec TK
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Standard disclaimer, I have no affiliation, just
thought this would be helpfull for small scooters and
battery chargers.
www.goldmine-elec.com
Anderson Power Products Heavy Duty SB connector rated
at 50Amps, Type SB50A.
$2.49 each.
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With the DC motors, they are "rated at" say 144 or 192 volts. But
there are cases of people giving them more voltage? The amps being
crammed into them seem extreme. "Controller bypass" for example.
What's the situation with the AC motors? Say for example you had one
wired up with a "Controller bypass". Is it going to take all the amps
you can give it, or will it only take so much?
What's the situation with using a single phase AC motor? Seems the
inverter would be "easier" to make vs's a 3 phase inverter.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can it be said and agreed upon that each Optima or Orbital contain 300 Wh each?
At steady speed, what is your Wh as far as the motor is using?
How many Wh does a AVDCor WarP 9" use(on average)?
Are the numbers of 250 Wh/mile (worst case) and 150 Wh/mile (best
case) considered accurate?
Using those numbers a 144 pack would get 24 miles range at best and
only 14 at worst?
A 192 would get 32 miles best case and 19 at worst?
What's a ballpark figure for Wh using an AC motor?
I could fit 25 batteries(40lb,each) in the trunk of anything..
Question is, could the unibody support 1000 lbs? Granted, proper
tires would be used and springs with increased capacity, but still.
1,000 lbs in the trunk or hatch of a unibody vehicle? Will it take
the weight, or will it fail?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Think...blender.
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 3:59 AM
Subject: Unconventional Liquid Motor Cooling Ideas?
Well, the list has been sorta slow, a meer 50 messages/day, so...
You Guessed it! It's me again, with yet another hair brained idea..
So, any motor that is currently liquid cooled I'de imagin is similar
to an ICE, with isolated veines running throught the housing... ok..
But would it be possible to find a non-conductive liquid that could
be allowed to run throught a live DC motor? How about anti-freeze?
Is voltage a factor? Might work better at lower voltage, like 48vdc.
In particular, I'm thinking that one could place an E-Tek inside a
sealed housing filled with a liquid which would in-and-of-itself
have much more heat obsorbsion capacity or thermal mass. Sure there
would be more loss due to the rotor moving through a heavier fluid,
but would the additional thermal mass and thus more stable higher
current capacity be worthwile? Beyond simply replacing the air with
a liquid one could circulate the liquid out to a heat exchanger...
I'm thinking that the rotor's motion would tend to push the liquid
outwards to the edges, It may setup some internal fluid circulation?
Is anti-freeze conductive? What else might work?
Nitrogen? <Grin> So, just how crazy of an idea is this?
L8r
Ryan
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Hi all
Every few months we have a new listee who wants to get into EVs arrive, who
we then take through the same process of "forget about DC vs AC for now"
(or whatever their opening question was) and help them through the process
of defining the vehicle from their needs and wants, then helping them
select the hardware.
We can define a set of questions that will help these people get started,
wherever they come from. These questions will be in the order of "what is
your daily travel requirement?" etc. They could cpoy the page, delete the
N/A questions, answer the questions and post the answers in a single
posting if that is what they need/want to do. We and they can then
understand what their parameters will need to be, and a) save bandwidth
over all the to-and-fro Q&A to do this and b) help them define their needs
a lot quicker.
This could be posted as a page from the photo album front page, to give
them a 'close handy' resource to look at what can be done. I think that it
is Mike Chancey who looks after the album, If he's happy to add this, then
let's get a set of questions together.
In addition I feel that there should be some pointers to the AC vs DC,
sealed vs wet cells, auto vs manual vs no transmission, ICE hp vs AC vs DC
hp & torque, and other comparisons in order to help them understand what it
is they are asking about.
I know that there are a *stack* of things to consider, and at some point
they will start to get away from the basics of what the vehicle needs to
be, but when these start to be an issue, there are a few FAQ pages out
there for different aspects. So I guess that's a third page.
So here are a few questions to open with, let's get a list and get it
posted somewhere with easy access.
===========
What is your daily use (commute or errands)?
If commute, what is the travel distance?
If commute, is there power available for charging at the destination
parking place?
Is there power available for charging at the normal residence parking place?
If errand vehicle, what is a typical and maximum daily distance?
If errand vehicle, how fast does it need to charge (time-wise)?
How many people will the vehicle need to carry (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, more)?
How many other people will be driving the vehicle (need to know what to do
if things go wrong)?
Who will be maintaining the vehicle (do you have the resources to maintain
it once built)?
What additional payload will be needed?
How fast is it needed to go (around town, highway @ 70mph max, highway @
85mph max)?
How fast do you want to accelerate (intend to race it)?
How "sexy" do you want the car to be?
=========
OK, I'm sure there are a lot of others, and some of these will need to be
re-worded so as to make sense to a newcomer. Since Chris Seeley has just
joined us, I will ask him to comment on wether these make sense to someone
who seems new to the world of EVs, and also for other peoples' questions.
Over to the forum
Regards
James
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That much weight in the back of most any car would make the handling
dangerous. You should plan on putting some batteries up front to help
balance the car. Almost all cars are designed to have more weight on
the front wheels than the rear, this makes for safer handling.
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I could fit 25 batteries(40lb,each) in the trunk of anything..
> Question is, could the unibody support 1000 lbs? Granted, proper
> tires would be used and springs with increased capacity, but still.
>
> 1,000 lbs in the trunk or hatch of a unibody vehicle? Will it take
> the weight, or will it fail?
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David Dymaxion wrote:
> That much weight in the back of most any car would make the handling
> dangerous. You should plan on putting some batteries up front to help
> balance the car. Almost all cars are designed to have more weight on
> the front wheels than the rear, this makes for safer handling.
How about in the case of a Porsche or Lamborghini with the engine in the back?
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My conversion won't be done in time for NEDRA LV 2005, but I'm
planning on 2006, and if the stars line up Woodburn 2005.
I am bringing my 94 Camaro -- and would like to challenge any of the
electric racers. It won't be the Viper vs. the Maniac Mazda, but
still would be fun. I have never drag raced before, just done
autocross. The previous owner claims a 13.6, I'm assume that is an
altitude corrected number. I'm guessing high 13's or low 14's. I'd be
proud to be beat by an electric! So if anyone would like to challenge
my gasser please send me an email.
Will I be able to race Saturday, or just Friday night?
Is 8 a.m. gates open time?
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>
> What is your daily use (commute or errands)?
>
> If commute, what is the travel distance?
>
> If commute, is there power available for charging at the destination
> parking place?
>
> Is there power available for charging at the normal residence parking place?
>
> If errand vehicle, what is a typical and maximum daily distance?
>
> If errand vehicle, how fast does it need to charge (time-wise)?
>
> How many people will the vehicle need to carry (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, more)?
>
> How many other people will be driving the vehicle (need to know what to do
> if things go wrong)?
>
> Who will be maintaining the vehicle (do you have the resources to maintain
> it once built)?
>
> What additional payload will be needed?
>
> How fast is it needed to go (around town, highway @ 70mph max, highway @
> 85mph max)?
>
> How fast do you want to accelerate (intend to race it)?
>
> How "sexy" do you want the car to be?
>
My question: How much are you willing to spend?
Next: How much work can you do youself?
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I don't know about the Lamborghini, but the Porsche 911 takes a truly
excellent driver to drive hard without spinning it. Also, the Porsche
is designed for the rearward weight bias, and is still prone to
spinning. Putting lots of weight in the rear of a car not designed
for it is just asking for trouble.
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> David Dymaxion wrote:
> > That much weight in the back of most any car would make the
> handling
> > dangerous. You should plan on putting some batteries up front to
> help
> > balance the car. Almost all cars are designed to have more weight
> on
> > the front wheels than the rear, this makes for safer handling.
>
> How about in the case of a Porsche or Lamborghini with the engine
> in the back?
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Didn't the Porsche 911 come with front bumper weights, about 65 Lbs of lead?
I may be remembering wrong
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: How many Wh does your vehicle average?
I don't know about the Lamborghini, but the Porsche 911 takes a truly
excellent driver to drive hard without spinning it. Also, the Porsche
is designed for the rearward weight bias, and is still prone to
spinning. Putting lots of weight in the rear of a car not designed
for it is just asking for trouble.
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
David Dymaxion wrote:
> That much weight in the back of most any car would make the
handling
> dangerous. You should plan on putting some batteries up front to
help
> balance the car. Almost all cars are designed to have more weight
on
> the front wheels than the rear, this makes for safer handling.
How about in the case of a Porsche or Lamborghini with the engine
in the back?
__________________________________
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Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
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David Dymaxion wrote:
> I don't know about the Lamborghini, but the Porsche 911 takes a truly
> excellent driver to drive hard without spinning it.
Around here, the roads are layed out on a square mile grid, so the
only turning I do, is at a stop light or stop sign.
My car will be for cruising and dragging. No high speed turning.
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You are correct about that. They also moved the rear wheels back a
bit. They also put small twin batteries in each front corner of the
car, as opposed to one big one, to increase the moment of inertia.
That's a nice thing about doing a conversion, you can move a few
batteries to the front to balance even a 911's handling.
--- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Didn't the Porsche 911 come with front bumper weights, about 65 Lbs
> of lead?
> I may be remembering wrong
>
> David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
> Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
> -
> Harold S.
> Hulbert
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 9:36 PM
> Subject: Re: How many Wh does your vehicle average?
>
>
> >I don't know about the Lamborghini, but the Porsche 911 takes a
> truly
> > excellent driver to drive hard without spinning it. Also, the
> Porsche
> > is designed for the rearward weight bias, and is still prone to
> > spinning. Putting lots of weight in the rear of a car not
> designed
> > for it is just asking for trouble.
> >
> > --- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> David Dymaxion wrote:
> >> > That much weight in the back of most any car would make the
> >> handling
> >> > dangerous. You should plan on putting some batteries up front
> to
> >> help
> >> > balance the car. Almost all cars are designed to have more
> weight
> >> on
> >> > the front wheels than the rear, this makes for safer handling.
> >>
> >> How about in the case of a Porsche or Lamborghini with the
> engine
> >> in the back?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Yahoo! Messenger
> > Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
> > http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest
> >
> >
>
>
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What about when you have to swerve to avoid a little kid? Even though
it is a rare event, I'd never assume you'll never need to do an
emergency maneuver.
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> David Dymaxion wrote:
> > I don't know about the Lamborghini, but the Porsche 911 takes a
> truly
> > excellent driver to drive hard without spinning it.
>
> Around here, the roads are layed out on a square mile grid, so the
> only turning I do, is at a stop light or stop sign.
>
> My car will be for cruising and dragging. No high speed turning.
>
>
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David Dymaxion wrote:
> What about when you have to swerve to avoid a little kid? Even though
> it is a rare event, I'd never assume you'll never need to do an
> emergency maneuver.
I guess I could built it with 1000 lbs of batteries in the trunk and
take it to an empty parking lot and see how well it does donuts and
test it's swerve ability. Do some sharp turns and see if the rear
swings out. If it's unsatisfactory, I could move half or all the bats
to the front...
It seems like someone on this list mentioned that it was best to keep
the batteries together though?
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