EV Digest 4254
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Arcane autos and connector for 1221Curtis Regen model.
by "Paulcompton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Las Vegas Race
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Automatic Trans SAAB 900E ADVICE!!!!
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Living On Earth Story, Riding the Wind, etc!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: NEDRA LV Camaro Challenge
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Questions newcomers ask/ need to be asked
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) S-10 conversion for sale, "needs batteries"
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Arcane autos and connector for 1221Curtis Regen model.
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV digest 4253
by "Love" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: S-10 conversion for sale, "needs batteries"
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Current limiting
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Current limiting
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Questions newcomers ask/ need to be asked
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AC/DC motor questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Using two chargers on Elec-Trak
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: S-10 conversion for sale, "needs batteries"
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) NEDRA Wicked Watts Special Guest
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) VW beetle questions
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Unconventional Liquid Motor Cooling Ideas?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Using two chargers on Elec-Trak
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Current limiting
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Super deal on Lion Cells $450/KWH
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Porshce 911 handling issues.
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Front wheel drive question
by Mcleod A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: S-10 conversion for sale, "needs batteries"
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Using two chargers on Elec-Trak
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Automatic Trans SAAB 900E ADVICE!!!!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: How many Wh does your vehicle average?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) SCR vs modern Zilla/Curtis style controllers.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Transfer case as transmission
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: SCR vs modern Zilla/Curtis style controllers.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) Re: Measuring voltage with a capacitor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> On Apr 2, 2005 11:47 PM, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I promised I'd help Lou find a connector for a Curtis 1221 Regen model. It
> > has a special Molex(r) 10 pin connector.
>
> Regen model? Are you sure? My Curtis 1221B-7401 had this connector,
> it was for the reversing control board.
>
> Regards
> Evan
As I recall, the reversing contactor control board uses a 7 pin molex (0.156"
or 0.2" pitch I think) and the Regen model uses a 10 pin version.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/morini
___________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Larry,
The official race date is on Saturday, April 9. Racing begins at 8:00 am and
ends at 12:00 noon. We will be sharing the track with the Jr Dragsters.
We will be allowed to race on Friday evening for practice runs but I'm not
sure if many people will be there or not for that option.
There are hotels a few miles south of the track off Interstate I-15.
I will be posting more info on the race soon.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
On 4/4/05 1:04 AM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:40:13 EDT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Vegas ev race
>
> Is the vegas race friday and saturday? Is there a good motel close by
> /
> Larry Cronk
> 72 Datsun Elec TK
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My understanding at this point is the torque converter is not necessary except
for it's turning of the hydraulic pump. I will get a better look at it when I
take the engine out of the vehicle. Torque multiplication is not an issue in an
EV like it is with an ICE. I don't see why an auto tranny would be any big
disadvantage if the losses of the converter can be eliminated.
>
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2005/04/02 Sat PM 05:41:14 GMT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Automatic Trans SAAB 900E ADVICE!!!!
>
> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > I think the torque converter is seperate from the pump, there are 2
> > spline shafts...
>
> The torque converter I had apart had *3* splined shafts to the
> transaxle. In the center was the actual input shaft to the transmission.
> Around that was a shaft that connected the torque reaction blades inside
> the torque converter to a one-way clutch in the transmission. The third
> was the actual case of torque converter, being spun by the ICE -- it
> drove the hydraulic pump in the transmission.
> --
> Ring the bells that you can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in
> -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 8:55 AM
Subject: Living On Earth Story
> This past weekend "Living on Earth" aired an interview with James Woolsey
> and Robert McFarlane, who are two signatories on a letter to President
Bush
> about oil and national security. One of the paths they are recommending
is
> plug-in hybrids. Text of the article can be found at:
>
>
http://www.loe.org/ETS/organizations.php3?action=printContentItem&orgid=33&t
> ypeID=19&itemID=251#feature4
>
> mp3 version is also available at http://www.loe.org
>
> Bill Dennis
>
Hi All;
Thanks for the cool link! I wanna ad one, too. The new copy of "Trains"
magazine May issue has a great blerb on page 28 about Calgary's Lite rail
system running on WIND power, Welllll, I would think SOME of the time.
Starting trains used GOBS of amps, I would think that they would need
battery backup or Calgary's OTHER form of power, now and again?? So it
wouldn't be " Conducter, WHY are we going so slow?" "We're waiting for the
wind to pick up 'Mam!"
Great idea, I'll bet ya could run PDX's MAX off windmills placed in the
Columbia gorge, where those windsurfer guyz BLAST around, on the river. They
are AWESOME to watch. But it is a hellova lot of work, when YOU are part of
the boat's standing rigging!
Lots of other fun stuff in the Trains, mag if ya wanna drop $5.50 on a
Read, but it has a cool tourist RR listing, electric, even, or where else
you can hear the happy hum of traction motors, becides EV cars.
Nice article in the NY Times Sat, about Cal Cars Ron Gremban's pix,
EVen! Maybe we are getting out, but damn little about the EV-1 vigil! Is it
still on??No news media HERE EVen mentions it. I sent that link to the local
Paper,NO answer, although they HAVE published my stuff before.
I'm gunna take my new copy of the EAA newsletter to my local rag, the
New Haven Register, to TRY to get them to print something besides the
trwattle about oversize trucks SUV's and Car Dealers gloating about how
wonderful they are. You don't want to read the Auto Section on a full
stomach or go to the NYC Auto show! I didn't bother, see ENOUGH SUVs in my
drive to work.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David,
Great, thanks for the challenge!!
The race starts at 8:00 am on Saturday April 9 and ends at 12:00 noon. We
will be sharing the track with the Jr. Dragsters.
I've CC'd Stan on your idea to a race challenge on Saturday. He will be able
to confirm that for you. I'll also check with Kimberly from the LVMS today.
We will be allowed to race after 6:00 pm on Friday evening for practice
runs, last I heard. Not sure how many people will make that though.
I'll be posting an updated announcement on the race soon.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
On 4/4/05 1:04 AM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:14:12 -0700 (PDT)
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: NEDRA LV Camaro Challenge
>
> My conversion won't be done in time for NEDRA LV 2005, but I'm
> planning on 2006, and if the stars line up Woodburn 2005.
>
> I am bringing my 94 Camaro -- and would like to challenge any of the
> electric racers. It won't be the Viper vs. the Maniac Mazda, but
> still would be fun. I have never drag raced before, just done
> autocross. The previous owner claims a 13.6, I'm assume that is an
> altitude corrected number. I'm guessing high 13's or low 14's. I'd be
> proud to be beat by an electric! So if anyone would like to challenge
> my gasser please send me an email.
>
> Will I be able to race Saturday, or just Friday night?
>
> Is 8 a.m. gates open time?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> How much heater/defroster is required?
-snip-
>
> What is your accessory load?
-snip-
>
> How many safety interlocks are desired/required?
-snip-
>
> How fast do you want/need to recharge?
>
I wonder how many newbies will know/understand these questions?
I suspect you will end up getting answeres like these (in order):
about 1/2 way
10 lbs?
the car already has locks
10 minutes
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now that I have my NiMH truck, I'm ready to sell my old one (sniff):
1992 S-10, converted in 1995 with an EVA "kit", upgraded some since
then, driven ~50,000 electric miles. It needs at least new batteries, a
matching charger and battery management system, and some wiring work.
One might also want to upgrade from the 600 amp DCP controller as
acceleration is a bit tepid, especially on hills in city traffic. Minor
body work is needed (ie find a leak around the rear window).
Details at http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/for_sale.html
I also have a new Zilla 1K and a used PFC-20 charger to sell, see above
link.
I may eventually put all this on eBay, but I'd like to make sure it is
going to someone who has the resources (ie this list!) to undertake the
work to get it back on the road.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 4, 2005 3:34 PM, Paulcompton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Apr 2, 2005 11:47 PM, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I promised I'd help Lou find a connector for a Curtis 1221 Regen model.
> > > It
> > > has a special Molex(r) 10 pin connector.
> >
> > Regen model? Are you sure? My Curtis 1221B-7401 had this connector,
> > it was for the reversing control board.
> >
> > Regards
> > Evan
>
> As I recall, the reversing contactor control board uses a 7 pin molex (0.156"
> or 0.2" pitch I
> think) and the Regen model uses a 10 pin version.
Ah! I just didn't realise there was a regen version.
PS thanks for the help at the weekend. Hope you're enjoying the Dart :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
just to let you know there was a recall on "the tank" e-scooter
seems they got skimpy on the wiring..
for a $5 find, you could probably skip the recall, and beef it up yourself..
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml04/04207.html
ride safely.
Steven
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 3:22 PM
Subject: Garage sale find
>I ran accross 2 electric scooters at a garage sale. the deck says "the
>tank" e-scooter
> They have a 350W 36 volt motor and a tiny black box inside that must be
> the controller. Loks like I will need to find a charger.
> They're are 3 12V 12ah batteries that are sealed and have a green plastic
> plate covering access to the cells which look closed off with some kind
of
> sealer.
>
> I couldn't pass them up at $5 each. Anyone know what they are? I know
> nothing about scooters. I mean are they junk, good brand, gel-cells?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rich,
If I buy his PFC-20, what would it cost me to send it to you for a
buck-enhanced add on. Might be my way to get a PFC at a price I can
*ALMOST* afford.
James
>
> I also have a new Zilla 1K and a used PFC-20 charger to sell, see above
> link.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could you put a normally closed contactor on the aux pack and have a
relay powered by voltage accross a shunt(would need an opamp or
transistor to amplify)
As the current goes up on the main pack and hits 60 amps(assumming 30
from each similar chemestry and voltage pack) it pulls in the contactor
disconnecting the aux pack,
At 30 amps this can probably be dont cheaply with solid state, others
like lee acan help there. Or even one of those battery isolators they
sell for RV's?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> Question: Say I wanted to have a particular battery string in a
> series string never put more that 30 amps into the equasion, no
> matter what the draw. What would be the best and/or simplest way
> to do this?
If I understand, you want to have two battery packs. One "primary" pack
for high current, and a small "secondary" pack that is limited to 30
amps max. Correct?
If the two packs are the same voltage (both 300v), then the simplest way
is a resistor (or something equivalent to a resistor) in series with the
secondary pack. Battery internal resistance is very low, so even a small
voltage drop in series with the secondary pack will cause a large
reduction in the current it supplies. I don't even think the power lost
in a resistor will be bad enough to worry about (like a 1v drop out of
300v).
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This response should be framed. I about choked when I read it. I work
in computers for a living and believe me, this sound WAY too familiar...
What is your operating system?
"It's a Dell, but it's not working too good right now.."
I guess maybe we need to get better at asking questions.
James
On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 10:01, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > How much heater/defroster is required?
> -snip-
> >
> > What is your accessory load?
> -snip-
> >
> > How many safety interlocks are desired/required?
> -snip-
> >
> > How fast do you want/need to recharge?
> >
>
> I wonder how many newbies will know/understand these questions?
> I suspect you will end up getting answeres like these (in order):
>
> about 1/2 way
> 10 lbs?
> the car already has locks
> 10 minutes
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
>> Have AC available, with enough amps, and you can overdrive an
>> AC motor as hard as you can overdrive a DC one.
> Will the AC motors take it though?
Sure! Same iron, same copper, same basic limits on torque and current.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Assuming that at least one of the two chargers is isolated (and most
golf cart chargers would be... look for a transformer inside), then this
should work fine.
The one I have looks for a reasonable voltage on the battery side before
it tries turning on... having that voltage a little higher when the
second charger goes on shouldn't confuse anything.
Near the end of the cycle, perhaps there is a way they could confuse
each other with the net result being they both shut off a little too
soon. But for your bulk charge over lunch hour this won't be an issue,
and can always run just one for the final phase of charging.
James Jarrett wrote:
To use both chargers, I assume all I have to do is plug each one in, one
at a time, and make sure that they are on a separate electrical circuit
so I don't trip a breaker.
I guess my question is will this work? Both chargers seem to have a
sensor of some point as they don't start to charge until they have been
connected for a few seconds. Will they interfere with each other's
ability to turn on?
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmmm... this was probably meant to go to Rich off list, but since
people are asking: the PFC-20 I'm selling is an early one that can NOT
take the buck enhancement feature (I already asked Rich). Sorry.
James Jarrett wrote:
Hey Rich,
If I buy his PFC-20, what would it cost me to send it to you for a
buck-enhanced add on. Might be my way to get a PFC at a price I can
*ALMOST* afford.
James
I also have a new Zilla 1K and a used PFC-20 charger to sell, see above
link.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello everyone,
We will have a special guest joining us for Wicked Watts this Saturday April
9.
Bob Anderson, a Carroll Shelby prot�g�, who has been working on EV
technology for many years will be racing with us at Wicked Watts. He has
started buiding an Electric Cobra prototype base on Shelby's original "98"
car. Bob was also a road racer for many years. Shelby America is located in
the industrial section of the Las Vegas Motor Speedway, where Bob received
help setting up an EV shop. He has constructed futuristic EV's that were
used in the movies "Minority Report" and "AI" by Stephen Spielberg. In
addition to racing at Wicked Watts 2005, he has offered to host an open
house of his shop during the NEDRA EVent with lots of machine tools, EV
parts, dyno tester, and EV's to drive.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
started some front end work this weekend on my EV. I
purchased a strut support bar from JCWhitney and tried
to mount it this weekend. I encounter a large problem.
the part of the mounting hardware that is intended to
mount to the strut tower or the top of the strut
doesn't seem to fit in any way. please refer to the
attached pics. also for anyone curious, I started work
on converting the front drum brakes into disc brakes.
the job is going pretty smoothly so far. it only took
me about 40 min to take the old knuckle off and put
the new one on. if any one is looking for two complete
steering knuckle drum brake assemblies for a 71' VW
with new brake shoes and wheel cylinders, let me know.
I will probably have them up on ebay in a few weeks. I
was also wondering if any one knows what the
difference between a beetle and a super beetle?
Thanks, Brian
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a dirt simple solution for you that will save you a LOT of money,
time, effort.
Are you ready?
Take your E-Tek and put in on a shelf to use for another project. Then go
out and buy a motor big enough to handle the job.
See...simple, cheap, and reliable.
> Again, with the E-Tek in mind....
>
> I guess what I'm looking for is something a little more
> "exotic" than simple forced air, or no cooling at all..
>
> With simple cooling I'll be limiting current to arround 100A.
> I'll have to be carefull not to overheat my motor(s) and
> so will bump up the current in small steps, kinna spooked.
>
> I'll have enough hardware for 300A per motor, which they
> should be able to handle, IF I can keep them cool enough.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Jarrett wrote:
>
> I have an Elec-Trak I-5 that I use to mow my lawn. The lawn is VERY
> large (about 2.5 acres) and VERY thick and as such the E-T can just
> barely mow it on one charge, and then only if I mow about 1/2 of it in
> LL.
>
> In an effort to make my batteries last longer, I generally mow the back
> yard (about 3/4 of an acre) and put the tractor on to charge for an hour
> or so then mow the front.
>
> I hear lots of you talking about using more than one charger. As it
> happens, I have two 36v automatic golf cart chargers, and the Elec-Trak,
> as of this weekend, has two places on it for them to connect. I have
> used both to charge the tractor and everything seems fine.
>
> To use both chargers, I assume all I have to do is plug each one in, one
> at a time, and make sure that they are on a separate electrical circuit
> so I don't trip a breaker.
>
> I guess my question is will this work? Both chargers seem to have a
> sensor of some point as they don't start to charge until they have been
> connected for a few seconds. Will they interfere with each other's
> ability to turn on?
Simple "dumb" chargers are usually just fine You can use two of them in
parallel and they just ignore each other and charge twice as fast.
Generally, one of them will see the voltage rise or current fall to what
they consider "full", and shut off. The second charger then continues
until it sees whatever voltage or current it considers "full" and it
shuts off, too.
Fancy "smart" computer-controlled chargers are another story. Most
often, they don't expect any other load or charger to be connected at
the same time, and so make mistakes when they are present. But some of
them were designed to allow for this, and will work ok, too. You have to
try it, and watch them *closely* to see what they do!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If the two packs are the same voltage (both 300v), then the simplest way
> is a resistor (or something equivalent to a resistor) in series with the
> secondary pack. Battery internal resistance is very low, so even a small
> voltage drop in series with the secondary pack will cause a large
> reduction in the current it supplies. I don't even think the power lost
> in a resistor will be bad enough to worry about (like a 1v drop out of
> 300v).
I was thinking the same thing, and since he is using a 6ga wire, if it's
long enough it will probably provide all of the resistance he needs to
limit the current to 30 amps.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok folks, I thought some of you might be interested in these cells:
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G14948
3.7V 1.2A $2 ea.
Probably be good for a cheap scooter/e-bike project or if someone is
REALLY industrius they could build a full size EV pack ala T-zero.
The cells weight 38 gr each, so a 10kwh EV pack would weigh less than 200
lbs and cost about $4500.
Assuming, of course, that Electronic Goldmine has that many cells.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mid-1976 Porsche started galvanizing the 911, so the later ones are
much more rust resistant. I definitely saw several rust horror
stories on earlier ones.
--- Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would not recommend converting a 1968 or earlier 911 to electric.
>
> First because of the short wheel base meaning more battery would be
>
> outside of the wheels, and second because they tended to rust a
> *lot*.
> Not many exist today in good shape.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger
Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
With a rear wheel drive, because of the ring and pinion, the front of
the car lifts up on acceleration.
There are going to be two Moments (Similar in concept to torque) that
will cause the car to tilt backwards. One is the interaction you have
mentioned above. This is due to the reaction forces to the torque on
the drive wheels that is counteracted in the body. This Moment will
have the same direction regardless of the vehicle being front or rear
wheel drive. If the car goes forward, it will lift the front wheel.
The other moment will be due to the acceleration of the car and its
center of gravitiy being above ground level. This will cause the rear
to squat and the front to lift. This effect is regardless of the
traction force. If you put the car on a sled without its wheels turning
and tow the sled to accelerate it, the car will still squat in the rear
and lift in the front.
Both effects happen without regard for front wheel drive, rear wheel
drive, 4 wheel drive, gasoline, diesel, or electric. If the car
accelerates forward, it will squat in the rear and lift in the front.
If the car deccelerates (or accelerates backwards) the nose will squat
and the rear will lift. Just think about when you use the brakes.
Adam.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just for anybody who may not know (me), what is the buck enhancement feature?
Thanks
On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 12:00:26PM -0500, Jim Coate wrote:
<..snip..>
> the PFC-20 I'm selling is an early one that can NOT
> take the buck enhancement feature (I already asked Rich). Sorry.
<..snip..>
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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--- Begin Message ---
I've used 2 Lestermatics at the same time to charge my paralleled 36v
battery strings on my electric boat. I've also had both plugged into a
genset and charging the batteries together. I don't believe I've left both
units plugged in and charging overnight, so I'm not sure about how they
handle transitions from Bulk-Absorption-Float together...but I wouldn't
hesitate to try it if I had a second jack to plug the second charger into (I
jumpercabled the 2nd one before).
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> My understanding at this point is the torque converter is not
> necessary except for its turning of the hydraulic pump...
The torque converter has a number of other functions. It allows the ICE
to idle without the car moving. Not necessary in an EV, but sometimes
useful when you idle the traction motor anyway to drive all the
accessories (alternator, power steering, air conditioner, etc.)
> Torque multiplication is not an issue in an EV like it is with
> an ICE.
Electric motors can supply lots of torque *if* you have a big enough
motor and controller. If you skimp on the motor and controller (to save
money or weight, etc.), the torque converter will help accelleration,
just as it does for an ICE.
> I don't see why an auto tranny would be any big disadvantage if
> the losses of the converter can be eliminated.
Ignoring the torque converter, an automatic transmission is as good or
perhaps even more efficient than a manual transmission. If you have one
with a locking torque converter (and can get it to lock), there won't be
an efficiency penalty.
One more problem: the torque converter cushions the shock when shifting.
Leon Levasseur built an EV with a Toyota automatic transmission with no
torque converter. Shifts were *very* harsh and abrupt under power.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Can it be said and agreed upon that each Optima or Orbital contain
> 300 Wh each?
That's only 25 amphours. It's what you get at huge discharge currents.
If you discharge it at (say) 25 amps, then you get 124 minutes or 600
watthours.
> At steady speed, what is your Wh as far as the motor is using?
"Watthours" is a unit of energy; "watts" is a unit of power. The power
the motor uses is measured in watts, not watthours.
> How many Wh does a AVDCor WarP 9" use (on average)?
> Are the numbers of 250 Wh/mile (worst case) and 150 Wh/mile
> (best case) considered accurate?
Watthours per mile is like miles per gallon; it is telling you how
efficient the vehicle is. 250 wh/mile is typical of a small, light EV.
150 watthours/mile is better than any normal EV conversion can do, and
only achievable with extremely small, light, highly optimized vehicles.
> Using those numbers a 144 pack would get 24 miles range at best and
> only 14 at worst?
During a range test, the Optimas or Orbitals would be delivering more
like 50 amps, and would deliver more like 500 watthours each. 12
batteries x 500wh = 6000wh. At 150wh/mile that's 40 miles range. Note
that the Optimas/Orbitals can only deliver 50 amps for about an hour, so
you'd be driving at 40 miles per hour.
A vehicle that needed 250wh/mile will also be loading the batteries
heavier. Now the load current might be 75 amps, and you only get 400
watthours per battery. 12 batteries x 400wh = 4800wh. At 250wh/mile,
that's only 20 miles range. Your driving time is around 30 minutes, so
you're still driving at 40 miles per hour.
> A 192 would get 32 miles best case and 19 at worst?
Do the calculations as in the above example.
> What's a ballpark figure for Wh using an AC motor?
The motor isn't a factor; it's the efficiency of the vehicle that
matters.
> I could fit 25 batteries (40 lbs each) in the trunk of anything.
> Question is, could the unibody support 1000 lbs?
Not really! You'd probably bottom out the rear suspension, and darn near
lift the front tires off the ground. Long-term, you'd probably have
wheel bearing and brake troubles. Handling would get really scary!
I suppose it's possible to beef up the rear end enough to handle the
weight, and re-adjust the suspension so it handles "adequately" with the
new rear weight bias. But it would be something an expert would have to
do.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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I have an SCR based controller in the Electravan that switches at 1500 hz
with inadequate filtering
on the battery side. Is it possible that the battery sees high current
pulses and
behaves more like it is discharging at 1000 amps than 100 and consequently
has
much less capacity. A transistor controller switches at 15 khz and should
have
better filtering. Will the battery will see the lower average current and
have
greater capacity. If so will it be significant? When these trucks were
new
they were getting 60 miles range. Is it a matter of driving style? Maybe
I
should keep the rpm's up? Stay in the top speed of each gear?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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Does the hi gear / low gear apply to both the front and rear wheel
outputs. Logically, it seems it would ...
Also, do you know the high/low mechanism? Is it a planetary gear system
like an automatic, or is it a constant-mesh dogged gear like a manual?
Know of any small-ish units that could be used on a bike? I know most
are physically small, but they're also kinda heavy (75lbs).
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
And I've also gotten another idea... using a transfer case with a hi and
higher gear in it. The transfer cases that I am aware of are 2 to 4 wheel
drive transfer and at the same time a hi and low gearing. Is there just a
2
wheel transfer case that has a gearing in it that can be a hi to higher? a
1:1 and then a 1: >1 gear inside?
You could use an ordinary transfer case and reverse the connections, i.e.
hook the motor up to the rearwheel output and wheels up to the shaft that
normally connects to the transmission (just ignore the front wheel
output).
Couple gotchas, make sure it's an older gear(preferably) or chain drive
transfer case WITHOUT a internal differential. It would also, probably,
be best to look for a "divorced" transfer case. These are designed as a
separate unit with a short drive shaft to the transmission. Most "normal"
transfer cases are designed to bolt onto the back of a transmission and
have a splined input shaft.
Also, unless it's one of the new "shift on the fly" transfer cases you
will only be able to shift gears from either a stop or slow speed.
I'm not aware of any "divorced" transfer cases that offer "shift on the
fly" so you might have to put up with the splined shaft in order to use
one.
I plan to put the electronics and maybe some batteries in the front
compartment, put the batteries between the cab and rear axle, 2 layers
high
x 8 rows of 5 across for a total of 40 T-105.
Gonna be a pain in the a$$ to water them if they are in two layers.
So I'll get a battery pack
of
2 strings of 120 V or a single of 240, weight of 2480 lbs, pretty heavy.
(The obvious problem with this setup is that the power has to travel from
the bat pack forward to the controller and the back again to the motor.)
True, which makes the next obvious question...why? Why not build an
enclosure for the controller back near the motor and save all of the
expense, and powerloss, from the long cables?
Below is a chart comparing Optima's and Trojans. Are my numbers correct?
if
they are, then it seems better, at least weight wise to use the Optima's.
Volts # of bats amps Vtotal Watts 80%DOD
miles/300wt/hrs weight
Optima
D750S 12 40 65 480 31200 24969
83.2 1800
Trojan
T-105 6 40 225 240 54000 432000
144 2480
Comments please
I'm assuming by amps you really mean amp hours? If so, you numbers are a
little off from reality.
Under this application, you'll probably be able to squeeze a few more
amphours out of the Optimas than most people get (who typically carry 1/2
as many or less) so figure on getting 45 amp hours (tops) out of the
Optimas.
Second, the T-105 can deliver 225 amps hours...at the 20 hour rate, not at
the EV rate. The 20 hr rate is pretty much useless for EV calculations.
If you go to Trojan's website, you can see that the T-105 can deliver 75
amps for 115 minutes. 75 amps is pretty close to the average current
these batteries will see in this EV, so that works out to ~144 amp hours.
So your Watt Hours (you did mean watt hours not watts, didn't you?)
Optima: 45AH * 12V * 40 = 21,600WH
T-105: 144AH * 6V * 40 = 34,560WH ( more than 50% more)
If you went with the equivelent weight, 29 of the T-105 weighs 1798 lbs
and produces ~25,056WH, still more than from an equal weight in Optimas.
This would give you a pack voltage of 174V, which is in the reasonable
range for DC motor/controllers.
29 T-105s would also cost about 1/2 as much as 40 Optimas.
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Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I have an SCR based controller in the Electravan that switches
> at 1500 hz with inadequate filtering on the battery side.
> Is it possible that the battery sees high current pulses and
> behaves more like it is discharging at 1000 amps than 100 and
> consequently has much less capacity.
Yes, it is possible; even probable. You can measure the battery ripple
current with a multimeter. Measure across your battery current shunt, or
pick two spots along one of the wires from your batteries to the
controller. For example, the positive terminal of the battery and the
other end of that wire that connects to the controller. The voltage drop
in this wire is proportional to current.
Connect wires from these points to your multimeter, and go for a drive.
While cruising at some constant speed, measure the DC voltage and the AC
voltage. Their ratio is the percent ripple current. If the AC voltage is
more than about 10% of the DC voltage, then your batteries would benefit
from the addition of filter capacitors.
These old SCR controllers usually didn't have a large input filter
capacitor bank. There were several reasons.
First, they expected them to be used with huge forklift batteries, which
already have lots of capacitance (a "mere" 1000 amp load for these
batteries isn't a high rate :-) They may not have been aware that lack
of capacitors would be a problem for lower-capacity higher-resistance
batteries.
Or they knew, but were concerned about the reliability of electrolytic
capacitors. Modern electrolytics are merely bad -- back then they were
even worse! Note that a 20-year-old SCR controller still works; if they
had used electrolytics, it wouldn't!
Or, they knew and just wanted to save money.
You can add the filter capacitors yourself. You need to connect them as
close to the controller's input as you can, with as short and heavy a
wire as possible.
We don't have enough data to calculate a value, but it's going to take
thousands of microfarads. If it were me, I'd look for some surplus
electrolytics intended for switching power supply filtering, and put in
1,000uf worth. Measure your ripple current again, and see how much it
dropped. Then you can guess how much more it will take.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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Christopher Zach wrote:
> Question: Instead of using a D/A converter to measure something
> like battery voltage for a computer
A D/A converter converts digital into analog; I think you meant an A/D
converter, which converts analog into digital
> can one use RC time to do the measurment?
Yes. The BASIC Stamps, and many other products do this. It is cheap and
easy, but not very accurate. The resistor, capacitor, power supply
voltage, input threshold voltage, and output drive capability of the IC
all affect accuracy, and they have large variations between parts and
with temperature, time, supply voltage, etc.
> My thought is to use a RC circuit with a pair of digital relays to
> switch the circuit to a 6 volt battery for a microsecond
Most digital relays won't discharge a capacitor in 1 microsecond. More
like 1 millisecond.
> Will this work?
Yes, but not very well.
> Is there a better way to read voltage accurately?
If you want to *measure* a voltage accurately, you need some sort of A/D
converter. There are dozens of circuits, varying from very simple to
very complex, depending on the accuracy you need. Normally, you start by
specifying how accurate and how much resolution you need. From there,
you can pick the circuit accordingly.
> I don't need to know the voltage per se, what I want to know is
> if the voltage is below a given setpoint.
Then, what you want is a voltage comparator. This is a standard IC. You
apply a known reference voltage to one pin, and the unknown voltage to
another. The output switches high/low depending on whether the unknown
voltage is higher or lower than the reference. For example, the LM339 is
a quad comparator (4 in one IC) and sells for $0.25-$0.50.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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