EV Digest 4274
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Rebulding brake shoes, Adhesive?
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: article: Jay Leno to own America's First Lithium iCeL (TM) Powered
"R-Car"
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: What I want for an EV
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Rebulding brake shoes, Adhesive?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: adapters? / direct drive
by canev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Wire Gauge Questions
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) downshift for regen?
by "Jim Seibert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: NEVRA, comments on new race organization
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: adapters? / direct drive
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: article: Jay Leno to own America's First Lithium iCeL (TM)
Powered "R-Car"
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) Re: adapters?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) What it Takes to Run 9s (in a street bodied car)
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Wire Gauge Questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Typo: Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
30) Re: adapters?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Hydraulic hybrids (was Compressed air for regen)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) Re: What it Takes to Run 9s (in a street bodied car)
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
33) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
34) Re: Rebulding brake shoes, Adhesive?
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I used to work at a brake and clutch rebuilders as few ice ages ago.
The adhesive they use is heat cured and used for everything from gokarts
to the big rigs. It shouldn't cost you a bunch to get a rebuilder to do
the job. It's not difficult or complex by any means but you have to have
the oven adhesive and do the right prep work. We did lots of odd ball
or one off's and they are no harder than something like a Chevy or Ford.
If you can find the adhesive some are cold cure, but the industrial ones
we used were all oven cured at about 350-450 for 20ish minutes. Depended
on the size of shoe as you had to get the entire bonded area up to temp.
I think some of the new adhesives could cold cure over a few days which
would be the way to go as the heat cured ones produced just wonderful
smells. Araldite 71? is about the only one I can think of but there are
dozens.
Prep work is easy, all we did was sandblast the bare show, then grind the
bonding area with 80 grit, clean with non-residue solvent. Brush on the
adhesive onto shoe and friction material, clamp it in place with 4-6 clamps
(or the hot shoe sort of squirts out the side) toss it into the preheated
oven, hold your nose, look at your watch and there you go.
If you can't find someone to bond them on for you. You can rivet them on
using brass rivets. On some real heavy duty shoes we did bonding and rivets.
Rivets are not used as much as bonding is more cost effective to do. You can
set the rivets with a vice, a hammer and a steel rod. You can buy the rivets
at most hardware places ie Master McCarr's (sic?). They are a solid
countersunk
or flat head brass rivet with a semi hollow stem.
All in all I'd really try and get someone to do this.
Dave
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
-> Sent: April 12, 2005 5:00 PM
-> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
-> Subject: Rebulding brake shoes, Adhesive?
->
->
-> I've got some moped wheels I used on my electric trike. They need new
-> brake shoes, but nobody carries them.
->
-> I was thinking of just buying some of the brake lining that Mcmasters
-> sells and rebuilding them myself.
->
-> What kind of adhesive should I use to bond the new lining to the
-> old metal
-> shoes?
->
->
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hmmm, the crossfire isn't a huge car but I don't think
25 kW will get it to 100 mph (unless maybe it is
dropped from a plane).
Also, I assume when they say "168 Volts, 56 amps" they
mean 56 amp-hours ?
if they mean amps, then rather than 25 kW, they are
talking about 9.4 kW.
if they mean amp-hours, then they have 9408 watt-hours
on board. To get 100 miles range they are talkign
about 94 watt-hrs per mile (@100 mph). That would be
very impressive. that sounds more like a 1 person
solar endurance car than a crossfire conversion.
color me skeptical. also, doesn't whistler investments
set off alarm bells for some ?
~fortunat
from their press release:
"About R-Car
This sleek R-Car Chrysler Crossfire conversion is
anticipated for medium to long-range trips, as well as
neighborhood use. This zero emissions vehicle can
travel in excess of 100 mph for over 100 miles.
Speed: 6 speed gear box allowing speeds in excess of
100mph.
Range: Over 100 miles - adding more battery
packs will more than double the range
Power: 25 Kilowatts
Battery Packs: 168 Volts, 56 amps
Battery Weight: 250 lbs
Charge Time: 2-3 hours with either a 110-120 or
220-240V.
220-240 V gives a faster charge
Battery Charge Lifespan: Over 1000X "
--- Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A commercial Chrysler Crossfire conversion:
>
> http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/media.php?mediaID
>
> --
> Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) h:(905)279-5885
> c:(416)892-5885
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer wrote:
> Use a small car engine with all the emissions control stuff.
What's that consist of? The EGR valve and the catalytic converter(s)? ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> it's not street legal
Does it just not have working headlights/taillights, etc, that keep it
from getting a tag for street use?
Why doesn't Dave get it tagged for street use? It would make it a lot
more useful..
Could cruise it around town... go places in it..
It will be interesting to see what type of numbers it gets in the 1/4.
Any chance of getting the Geo on a dyno?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> John Wayland wrote:
>
> > it's not street legal
>
> Does it just not have working headlights/taillights, etc, that keep it
> from getting a tag for street use?
No, it's a lot more than that. I don't want to answer for Dave, so I'll leave
it at that.
>
> It will be interesting to see what type of numbers it gets in the 1/4.
>
I'm with you on this. I'm all for getting more quick EVs to the drag strip!
See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If money were no object (Loottery, rich Uncle died, Government grant) what
kind of EV would you build? What batteries, controller, motor(s), and why?
I'd build an R32 Skyline GTS4 sedan (money is no object, so I can afford
the several million to get it federalized) into an AC-motored AWD
superbeast to scare Wayland at the track, then add a tow hitch and
connectors for a 25kw diesel genset trailer for daily driving.
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About 1,000 pounds of Kokam Li Poly + twin Zilla 2Ks + twin
WarP 11s for a > 300V setup in a sub 2,500 pound car would
be rediculous. Could you imagine an EV approxamately the
same weight as 'White Zombie' with 600 horsepower at the
wheels?
Hmmmm. Who makes/made this sub-1000 pound production car body that can
put 600hp down on the pavement without tearing itself apart trying to do
so? And you need about 4000 pounds of Kokam li-polys to produce a megawatt
of peak power burst.
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There was a suggestion, but not a standard when I was last on a SAE
hybrid committee, but that was ~3 years ago.
Seth
On Apr 12, 2005, at 1:24 AM, Christopher Robison wrote:
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the correct color for
high-voltage in hybrids and EVs is fluorescent orange. Is this
correct?
Is there a standard at all? (A particular Pantone number?)
On the other hand, even if there's a standard, I'm sure that a plain
orange cable would be enough to warn emergency crews in an accident
situation.
Any thoughts?
--chris
Nick Viera said:
Hi,
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Does anyone know about how many feet worth of cable you have in your
vehicle? 25' or?
I started out with 25' of black and 25' of red welding cable in my
Jeep.
Because I ended up changing the positions of some of my batteries
before
it was all said and done, I ended up needing more welding cable and I
bought another 25' of black cable. However, I'd say I've only got
about
65' of welding cable in my Jeep total. Realize that I used so much
because it is a large vehicle and the front to mid to back battery box
runs are quite long.
P.S., for my next EV I think I'll buy orange welding cable instead of
black and red, as orange wire is now the color used to indicate high
voltage wiring in hybrids (etc?). Plus orange cable would look neater
than plain old black :-)
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun sells welding cable in a wide selection of
colors (and for a reasonable price) here:
http://store.solar-electric.com/wc--2-0.html . Note: I am not
affiliated
with them; I'm just a customer :-)
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The "Maniac Mazda" weighed about 2300 pounds with about that horsepower
when it was running 11 flat ETs.
11s? It should have been running 9s with 600whp, unless you spun it the
whole way down.
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
actually no.
Current flows through two or three at once, depending if it is two
phase on, one off (unlikely) or some sort of sinusoidal wave (or
other). And that would be all the current at once, which is 1.414x the
RMS value at peak, I think. So a 200A RMS drive could have as much as
282A (peak) flowing through any one phase.
How does 6 gauge look now?
Seth
On Apr 11, 2005, at 11:22 PM, Christopher Zach wrote:
You know what, now that I think about it that was the connector going
to the motor, not the battery. That's a 3 phase connection, so
technically each wire carries 1/3 the load. And it's AC
Chris
Seth Allen wrote:
That seems small to me, but I am on the other end of the spectrum
already.
I assume 3 leads, not a multiple thereof?
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cloud wrote:
>I don't know if this has ever been addressed here
>before, I have a
>rhetorical question. If money were no object (Loottery,
>rich Uncle died,
>Government grant) what kind of EV would you build? What
>batteries,
>controller, motor(s), and why?
I'd build an entirely custom carbon-fibre bodied two-seater,
with a titanium frame. Design would take after a Jaguar
E-Type or Lotus 11 from the front, it would be very
streamlined resembling an Opel Eco Speedster from the side
up until the rear, from the rear it would be sort of
wagon-like, taking after the Lotus Europa, BUT with a Lotus
Elise like setup for the taillights and EV1-ish sort of
pointed rear end for that teardrop shape. Rear wheel wells
covered, full belly pan, no external rearview mirrors but an
outside drivers-side camera with a small but hi-res screen
on the inside of the car. Its roof would be about 3-feet off
the ground, and frontal area about 13 feet squared, seating
two very cramped people or one comfortably. Goal would be
keeping drag coefficient at about .20, or less. Be sure to
make use of ground effect aerodynamic principles, as lack of
external spoilers and such would mean downforce has to come
from elsewhere for those high speeds. Have a rear spoiler
deploy only after the car starts going over about 90 MPH.
It would have about 800 pounds of Li Poly batteries, enough
for about 500 battery horsepower and about 65 kWh of onboard
energy, TWO AC-150 motor/inverter combos, an
appropriately-sized single speed ratio to be 240 MPH capable
for direct drive, and overall its final dry weight would be
somewhere around 1,800 pounds. Position motors behind
driver, and position batteries correctly for low polar
moment of inertia and a 50/50 weight distribution. The tires
would be kept big and sticky for roadholding.
Such a design would consume about 220 wh/mile @ 70 MPH
battery to wheels(body is aerodynamic and optimized as EV,
but VERY high rolling resistance with great traction), go
about 300 miles per charge highway, top out at 200+, 0-60
MPH about 3 seconds, 1/4 in the 11s somewhere, and handle
like it's on rails.
Make sure every final effort is payed to getting the trim
and finish eye-catching and desirable, as if it came from
the factory.
Me, not being any sort of expert engineer, would hire a few
people to help with the design and construction.
These specs are obviously conjecture and not simulated.
Drag racer? Hell no, but it would beat most opponents.
Canyon carver and overall road terror? F*** yes! This would
be a type of car you'd ship by boat to Targa Florio, have
some expert racer kick everyone's ass with, snatch a few
world track records(Besting the classic Porsche 917s and
such), all while staying street legal here in the states and
in Europe for your driving pleasure. And for ocassionally
harassing law enforcement should one feel so inclined.
Got $300k?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stop. There is a place near Santa Rosa CA that will bebuild shoes for you.
Not that bad in price. They also restore old cars. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: Rebulding brake shoes, Adhesive?
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
What kind of adhesive should I use to bond the new lining to the old
metal
shoes?
Do the original shoes not have a single rivet in them at all?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> David intends to prove once and for all that voltage
> doesn't matter by putting the batteries in series at the track at 192 to
> prove it goes no better. ....
Yeah, right...it's really that simple...not!
Merely reconfiguring the pack track side from 96V to 192V, of course won't
change much, in
fact, minus all the other mandatory changes to take advantage of higher voltage,
reconfiguring the pack track side from 96V to 192V might actually make the car
slower.
Now, look at it done right....reconfigure the pack, add an aggressive Zilla
controller to
take advantage of that higher voltage, change the final drive ratio to a higher
numerical
value (a lower gear ratio), modify the motor(s) to run best at higher voltages
(read that
timing), and still tell me it won't be any quicker and or faster in the 1/4
mile! The
higher voltage car can stay in current limit longer, extending the torque
farther down the
track, while at the same time, the motor(s) will run up to a much higher rpm.
The lower
ratio final drive will multiply off line torque, and the higher rpm seeking
motor(s) will
give high top speed, even with a lower ratio drive....hmmm, this all sounds an
awful lot
like a certain little Datsun I know of :-)
See Ya...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
White Zombie....4:57 gears, high voltage, Zilla controller, afterburner bypass,
12.99 @
101 mph!
Stay tuned for Friday's announcement of a lighter, higher voltage, higher
powered White Zombie.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is the orange for both neg and pos?
Rush
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't do it!
We converted a Geo Metro with a 192 volt / 9" motor with direct drive
and it worked very well. Lots of fun but any heavier vehicle and this
setup would be a DOG!
We also converted a 1989 Dakota with an automatic tranny, 10" Kostov and
a DCP controller @ 144 volts.
The Dakota ended up a little under 5000lbs. Not enough power to pull
that much weight around even with a trany, luckily it was just an "on
site" vehicle at a university and didn't have to compete in regular
traffic. Sell the Dak and build an S-10, it will give you 40 - 50 mile
range, I don't think the Dak will.
It does not take a little more power to go direct drive it takes a S---
load more power in a heavier vehicle if you want hiway speeds.
We don't keep the trany because "its there" we keep it because we just
don't have the HP to do without the gear reductions.
I just delivered a Honda CRX that we converted this month for a
customer. It drives real nice in second gear up to about 35 mph but
turns into a bit of a dog if you try to drive it in third from a start.
We do use direct drive in our little NEV truck and our big 3 ton trucks
but both of those vehicles only go 20-25 mph top speed.
My shop / tow vehicle is a 92 Dak with the 5.2, what a rocket!
New shop / tow vehicle is a 99 Dak with a 4L diesel. ;>0
BFN
Randy
I'm going to do an EV from a small truck and wanted to get better
performance from the motor so I was planning to dump the automatic
transmission and go straight to the drive shaft. How much more motor would
I need? I was considering an Advanced 9" and 192V pack (or 240v) with a
Zilla 1K controller. Would this provide me with the power/distance
necessary to go the 45 mile round trip to work and back? The donor is a '91
Dodge Dakota. (formerly with a 5.2L V8)
--
Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
Errington, British Columbia,
Canada, V0R 1V0
Phone: (250) 954-2230
Fax: (250) 954-2235
Website: http://www.canev.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
EV conversion Kits and components
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Finer wire means more copper and less air space.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been driving my EV to work for about a week now, and find that if I have
to stop without the luxury of a long coasting approach (stoplight turns red for
example), that I can downshift as I approach the stop, and get my
motor/clutch/flywheel spinning very quickly. I have to pay attention to my
ground speed and gear selection, as I don't want to over-rev anything, but the
point is, when I'm at a dead stop, my motor is still spinning around 3000 rpm
(clutch in at this point).
If the light turns green, or I otherwise want to start to move, I can just put
the car in 2nd, let out the clutch, and wala, I get a small boost of stored
energy as the flywheel/motor matches the transmission input shaft speed (zero
at the start).
It's not a lot, but it does make the car move, and recovers some of the energy
that would have just been burnt up in brake dust.
This seems to be a more efficient way of driving that just leaving the clutch
engaged as I come to a stop, which forces all rotation to a stop.
Is there any reason I should not be doing this (aside from a small amount of
clutch wear)?
Thanks, Jim Seibert
1992 Celica.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BETTER would be to go with the INTENT of a battery weight class structure
and base the classes on the TOTAL RATED onboard energy combined with vehicle
type and weight classifications. There are lots of different ways to
attempt to achieve "fairness" I'm sure. Maybe the best being cost or
investment---akin to the earlier mentioned claimer method...
But "best" for whom?
This comes down to goals and assumptions.
And not everyone will even agree on these---and that leads to the wildely
different ideas for fairness in racing.
You have to figure out a way to inspect it simply and fairly,
whatever you choose. It also must be very difficult for someone to cheat.
Voltage is the best option, given these constraints.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or. (I'm no racer...)
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:53 PM 4/12/2005, you wrote:
John Wayland wrote:
> it's not street legal
Does it just not have working headlights/taillights, etc, that keep it
from getting a tag for street use?
Why doesn't Dave get it tagged for street use? It would make it a lot
more useful..
It has to be registered and 100% street legal in the state it is
registered in.
Dave is correct in saying that the HP in the batteries is what
really matters. What he is incorrect about is that voltage doesn't alter
performance.
When it comes to the weight and size of the motor and controller,
voltage matters very much. This is the point he is missing.
If you play with the parameters of the motor, you will discover
that you end up with the lightest motor when you select the highest
voltage. Both the motor and the controller weight scale roughly with
current. The more current, the heavier the controller and the motor. The
weight of the controller only goes up slightly with voltage and the weight
of the motor does not change with voltage. Thus, a high-voltage low current
controller (or motor) is lighter weight than a low voltage high current
controller (or motor) of the same HP.
Let's get back to the motor. At the launch, you need just enough
torque to break loose the tire. At the end of the strip, you need all the
HP the batteries will provide.
The lightest motor that will work at both ends of the track will
run high RPM and will need a lot of voltage at the end of the track to make
it suck in HP. There is no getting around this.
At the moment, series-wound motors have an upper voltage limit of
about 300 volts (give or take.) This sets the upper battery voltage (for
now.) Now that you have set the upper voltage, you must select a motor (or
motors) that will deliver the torque (handle the amps) you need for an
optimum launch.
If you choose a lower voltage, the motor weight (and rotational
inertia) goes up. Half the motor voltage is about twice the motor weight
for the same performance.
You can overcome this with a transmission, but that adds weight.
On a drag racing vehicle, the rule of thumb is that "spinning"
weight hurts you three times as much as "static" weight. Thus, increasing
the weight of the spinning portion of the motor hurts you very badly.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just because I'm curious (well, OK, because I'm planning a direct-drive
conversion of my own) :o) -- what was the final drive ratio in both
these cases? (and how did you do direct drive with the Geo?)
I'm definitely going to have to switch to very different gears in the rear
end of my truck, and though I think I've figured out the right
neighborhood for my application, I realize I may end up swapping a few
times before I get it right...
--chris
canev said:
> Don't do it!
> We converted a Geo Metro with a 192 volt / 9" motor with direct drive
> and it worked very well. Lots of fun but any heavier vehicle and this
> setup would be a DOG!
> We also converted a 1989 Dakota with an automatic tranny, 10" Kostov and
> a DCP controller @ 144 volts.
> The Dakota ended up a little under 5000lbs. Not enough power to pull
> that much weight around even with a trany, luckily it was just an "on
> site" vehicle at a university and didn't have to compete in regular
> traffic. Sell the Dak and build an S-10, it will give you 40 - 50 mile
> range, I don't think the Dak will.
> It does not take a little more power to go direct drive it takes a S---
> load more power in a heavier vehicle if you want hiway speeds.
> We don't keep the trany because "its there" we keep it because we just
> don't have the HP to do without the gear reductions.
> I just delivered a Honda CRX that we converted this month for a
> customer. It drives real nice in second gear up to about 35 mph but
> turns into a bit of a dog if you try to drive it in third from a start.
> We do use direct drive in our little NEV truck and our big 3 ton trucks
> but both of those vehicles only go 20-25 mph top speed.
> My shop / tow vehicle is a 92 Dak with the 5.2, what a rocket!
> New shop / tow vehicle is a 99 Dak with a 4L diesel. ;>0
> BFN
> Randy
>
>>I'm going to do an EV from a small truck and wanted to get better
>>performance from the motor so I was planning to dump the automatic
>>transmission and go straight to the drive shaft. How much more motor
>> would
>>I need? I was considering an Advanced 9" and 192V pack (or 240v) with a
>>Zilla 1K controller. Would this provide me with the power/distance
>>necessary to go the 45 mile round trip to work and back? The donor is a
>> '91
>>Dodge Dakota. (formerly with a 5.2L V8)
>>
>>
>
> --
> Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
> PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
> Errington, British Columbia,
> Canada, V0R 1V0
> Phone: (250) 954-2230
> Fax: (250) 954-2235
> Website: http://www.canev.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
> EV conversion Kits and components
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dube wrote:
> ...
Do you have any info on the tantalizing future and possibilities that
AC motors and inverters can offer?
What might the future hold for AC performance EV's?
(tell it in the same way as you did in that excellent post about the
current state of DC)
If you don't mind that is..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Orange is for all high voltage (over 75 volts) pos and
neg. I seal and color code my ends with red and black
shrink wrap. I found a cool trick though. If I write
on the shrink wrap tubing with a sharpie before I
shrink it, I get a very nice legible label. remember
shrinkie dinks?
Gadget
--- Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Is the orange for both neg and pos?
>
> Rush
>
>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< hmmm, the crossfire isn't a huge car but I don't think
25 kW will get it to 100 mph (unless maybe it is
dropped from a plane).
Also, I assume when they say "168 Volts, 56 amps" they
mean 56 amp-hours ?
if they mean amps, then rather than 25 kW, they are
talking about 9.4 kW.
if they mean amp-hours, then they have 9408 watt-hours
on board. To get 100 miles range they are talkign
about 94 watt-hrs per mile (@100 mph). That would be
very impressive. that sounds more like a 1 person
solar endurance car than a crossfire conversion.
color me skeptical. also, doesn't whistler investments
set off alarm bells for some ?
~fortunat >>
Between Whistler and that "forward-looking statement" at the end, it's just more
PR BS. Maybe they'll make one, but I also doubt they'll get those specs.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Lee, I'm a newbie and need to learn more on this.
> I'm going to do an EV from a small truck and wanted to get better
> performance from the motor so I was planning to dump the automatic
> transmission and go straight to the drive shaft. How much more motor would
> I need? I was considering an Advanced 9" and 192V pack (or 240v) with a
> Zilla 1K controller. Would this provide me with the power/distance
> necessary to go the 45 mile round trip to work and back? The donor is a '91
> Dodge Dakota. (formerly with a 5.2L V8)
Here's how you can figure out how much motor you need.
First, estimate how much the converted vehicle will weigh, complete with
batteries, driver, and whatever payload you expect to carry. You could
just assume it will be the vehicle's rated GVWR if you like.
Second, decide how fast you want to accellerate. 0-30 mph in X seconds;
0-60 mph in Y seconds, etc. From the weight and the accelleration
needed, you can calculate the horsepower needed to do this.
With a transmission, all you need to consider is the horsepower --
torque doesn't matter because you can shift to keep the motor somewhere
near its peak horsepower rating. The max horsepower is easy; it is your
battery pack voltage times your controller's maximum current divided by
1000. For example, 120 volts x 500 amps = 60000 watts = 60 kw. When you
take motor efficiency into account, that's the same as 60 horsepower.
See if 60 hp is enough to meet your accelleration goals.
Without a transmission (i.e. a fixed gear ratio), then you need the
torque vs. rpm curve for the motor at the the battery voltage and
controller current you will use. This isn't too hard to get -- curves
are available for any motor you are likely to use.
At low speeds, it is the torque that limits your accelleration. The
controller will be in current limit, so you get constant torque (not
constant horsepower) at low speeds. You need a low enough gear ratio so
this torque is enough to accellerate at your desired rate. This torque
is determining your 0-30 mph time.
What usually happens is that with a "standard" differential ratio of 3:1
or so, and a "standard" 500 amp controller, the torque is too low and
your 0-30 mph time is too slow; like 0-30 mph in 20 seconds. So, you can
change to a lower gear ratio; a 6:1 gear ratio cuts this to 0-30 mph in
10 seconds, for example. But now you find that with a 6:1 ratio, the
motor hits redline at too low a speed -- you can only go 50 mph max, for
example.
This means you need a bigger motor and controller. By doubling the
controller current to 1000 amps, you double the motor torque. This lets
you accellerate from (for example) 0-30 mph in 10 seconds with a 3:1
differential. And now your top speed at motor redline is 100 mph. But,
you've doubled the size (and cost) of your motor and controller.
Ideally, you "play with the numbers" to get an acceptable compromise
between a fast enough accelleration at low speeds, a high enough top
speed, without requiring too expensive a motor and controller, and with
a 'reasonable' gear ratio. The optimum for a DC series motor is usually
somewhere around a 5:1 gear ratio, with a motor and controller that are
40-50% bigger than it would have been for a setup with a transmission.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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<<...And you need about 4000 pounds of Kokam li-polys to produce a megawatt
of peak power burst.
David Thompson >>
Kokam's highest power density comes from a 40Ah cell, 2.3lbs, nominal 3.7V, 400A
peak. Parallel 7 cells for a 2800A peak, then 100 in series for a 370V nominal
pack (420V end-of-charge), total weight 1610 lbs - good candidate for a pair of
Z1K's or some fancy AC setup.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
James D Thompson wrote:
> >The "Maniac Mazda" weighed about 2300 pounds with about that horsepower
> >when it was running 11 flat ETs.
>
> 11s? It should have been running 9s with 600whp, unless you spun it the
> whole way down.
I disagree.
My buddy Gene at the track has a lightened Nova with 550 dynoed horses, and the
car weighs
about the same as Maniac Mazda. With 50 less hp that the 600 hp being
discussed, he runs
11.51 @ 119 mph, nowhere close to the 9s. A guy here in town also, has a 300ZX
with a 350
V8 and a monster turbo setup. It has been extensively lightened to about 2500
lbs. and is
claimed to be dynoed at 850 hp....he runs high 9s. A fellow fork lift wrench at
work has
an alchohol V8 Chevy with a pinch over 1000 hp...he runs mid 9s. Gutted, super
light
weight Honda Civics at 1800 lbs. or so, need insanely powered 4 bangers @ 700
hp to run
low 10s, and over 750 hp to dip into the 9s.
See Ya.....John Wayland
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James D Thompson wrote:
>
> >If money were no object (Loottery, rich Uncle died, Government grant) what
> >kind of EV would you build? What batteries, controller, motor(s), and why?
I'd build Rick Woodbury's second-generation Tango, which he calls the
"Foxtrot". This is to be a commuter version of the Tango, lower
performance but 1/2 to 1/4 the price. The key is to build the first one;
thereafter, it's much easier to build more!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Finer wire means more copper and less air space.
No; the packing density is exactly the same.
Each wire is a circle, and the area it takes is a hexagon. For very low
numbers of strands (like 3 or 4), and when you assume they must fit in a
perfect circle, you do get more wasted space. But once you have a dozen
or more strands, the packing density is essentially constant.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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" good candidate for a pair of Z1K's or some fancy AC setup."
Should be Z2K to utilize full current capability.
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Lee Hart wrote:
> Here's how you can figure out how much motor you need.
> With a transmission, all you need to consider is the horsepower --
> torque doesn't matter because you can shift to keep the motor somewhere
> near its peak horsepower rating. The max horsepower is easy; it is your
> battery pack voltage times your controller's maximum current divided by
> 1000. For example, 120 volts x 500 amps = 60000 watts = 60 kw. When you
> take motor efficiency into account, that's the same as 60 horsepower.
> See if 60 hp is enough to meet your accelleration goals.
300 volts x 2000 amps = 600,000 watts / 1000(thousand what?) = 600 kw
600 hp... Nice! Very nice...
9" or 13" motor though? How is that decided? (money notwithstanding..)
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Fortunat Mueller wrote:
> the EPA is working on hydrualic hybrids for heavy
> duty, urban cycle, hybrid applications. they claim
> impressive fuel economy improvements in the city.
Yes indeed!. I've been giving this idea a lot of thought lately, too.
Hydraulic pumps and motors have efficiencies similar to electric motors;
75-85% for the common stuff, 90% or more for the best. They can also be
very small and powerful -- wheel motors are no problem at all for
hydraulics. Variable-displacement pumps are also common; they perform
the function of a controller or continuously variable transmission.
It looks like it would be a lot easier to do an EV conversion by mount a
hydraulic motor in each wheel, run hoses to a central pump, and drive
the pump with an electric motor. The motor could be a fixed-speed PM
motor running with a very simple controller, since speed control can be
accomplished with the hydraulics. This also makes regen easy.
If you add an accumulator, you have the equivalent of a supercapacitor
to shield the batteries from high power surges during braking and
accelleration.
Finally, if you keep the ICE and add a hydraulic pump to it, you can
build your own hybrid! (Or is it a "tribrid" when you have 3 separate
sources of power?)
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > >The "Maniac Mazda" weighed about 2300 pounds with about that horsepower
> > >when it was running 11 flat ETs.
> >
> > 11s? It should have been running 9s with 600whp, unless you spun it the
> > whole way down.
> My buddy Gene at the track has a lightened Nova with 550 dynoed horses, and >
> the car weighs about the same as Maniac Mazda. With 50 less hp that the 600 >
> hp being discussed, he runs 11.51 @ 119 mph, nowhere close to the 9s. A guy >
> here in town also, has a 300ZX with a 350 V8 and a monster turbo setup. It
> has > been extensively lightened to about 2500 lbs. and is claimed to be
> dynoed at 850 > hp....he runs high 9s. A fellow fork lift wrench at work has
> an alchohol V8 Chevy > with a pinch over 1000 hp...he runs mid 9s. Gutted,
> super light weight Honda
> Civics at 1800 lbs. or so, need insanely powered 4 bangers @ 700 hp to run
> low > 10s, and over 750 hp to dip into the 9s.
What I don't get is the various online 1/4 mile calculators say 3000
lbs with 600 hp at the tires runs 9.9, or only 10.5 if that 600 at the
flywheel.
http://robrobinette.com/et.htm
http://www.mustangworks.com/analyzer.html
two of many..
http://www.google.com/search?q=1/4+mile+calculator
Time spent shifting, or automatics slipping, aerodynamics coming into play?
Then that mystery about mid 90's Supra's with 650/750/850 hp all
running 12's... Ever seen one at the track? Bogs hard off the line
just like a motorcycle..
Check out this video of a ~1000hp / ~1000tq Viper momentarily bog off the line:
http://www.viperalley.com/gallery/data/500/1948Yellow_And_Black_TT_9_569_Run.wmv
That motor really bogs down. You can hear it clearly.
Dyno graph:
http://www.viperalley.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/13701/size/big/cat/all/page/1
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--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
> Is the orange for both neg and pos?
Yes. They weren't thinking this thing through very well.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Hall Brake and Clutch in Phx. They would probably reline them for you cheap
enough or sell you the materials and make recommendations on adhesive. David
Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 4:59 PM
Subject: Rebulding brake shoes, Adhesive?
> I've got some moped wheels I used on my electric trike. They need new
> brake shoes, but nobody carries them.
>
> I was thinking of just buying some of the brake lining that Mcmasters
> sells and rebuilding them myself.
>
> What kind of adhesive should I use to bond the new lining to the old metal
> shoes?
>
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