EV Digest 4273
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Wire Gauge questions - current vs stranding
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: adapters?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by "David C. Navas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) ICE pusher trailer for sale
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Battpros
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Work looking into an EV parking spot. Question on plug type?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Work looking into an EV parking spot. Question on plug
type?
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Wire Gauge questions - current vs stranding
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Work looking into an EV parking spot. Question on plug type?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Rebulding brake shoes, Adhesive?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Work looking into an EV parking spot. Question on plug type?
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Possible gliders from Arcane autos.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Better EV's Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Compressed air for regen
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Sepex motor for a 1995 Club Car
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: What I want for an EV
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Better EV's Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by "David C. Navas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by "David C. Navas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) article: Jay Leno to own America's First Lithium iCeL (TM) Powered
"R-Car"
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) EV's if you could, Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Rebulding brake shoes, Adhesive?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) re: Compressed air for regen
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Philip Marino wrote:
>> All copper cable of the same gauge should be "rated" for the
>> same current.
No, because the "rated" current also depends on the environment, amount
of cooling, temperature rating of the insulation, etc.
>> Finer stranding will help only at very high (radio) frequencies,
>> but not at DC
Stranding is done solely to improve flexibility. When wire is stranded
to reduce the "skin effect" that occurs at RF frequencies, then the
individual strands must be *insulated* from each other. If they are
bare, it just functions as a solid conductor. "Litz wire" is one type of
stranded insulated wire made for this purpose.
Rush wrote:
> I'm confused also... their How to Determine Proper Cable Size states
> - "For example, a total circuit of 150 ft. at 150 amps would require
> a 2/0 standard cable or a #2 Vu-Tron cable."
They are playing marketing games. The Vu-Tron cable has a higher
insulation temperature rating than "standard" cable (by which they mean
the cheapest possible 40 deg.C cable). Thus, you can run it much hotter
before its insulation will fail. Thus you can stuff more current thru
it.
What they didn't bother to mention is that 150 ft. of #2 wire at 150
amps will have 0.023 ohms of resistance, and a voltage drop V = IR =
150a x 0.023ohm = 3.45v. That's a 3% voltage drop in a 120v circuit;
more than normally allowed.
> I thought that the formula for ampacity was based on the cross
> section of the wire, so if there are more strands, that basically
> means there is less cross sectional area of the total 'cable' since
> there is less circumference of the individual wires (also more
> space wasted because of more strands).
Yes; except that stranded wire sizes are based on the cross-sectional
area of the conductors; not on the apparent cross-sectional area of the
outside of the bundle, which includes the air spaces. In other words, a
#2 stranded wire is physically bigger than a solid #2 wire, and both
have the same resistance per foot and same current rating (all other
things being equal).
But beware! It has become common for no-name off-shore wire to be sold
whose advertised wire size is an outright lie!
> Or is that in AC only?
AC or DC, makes no difference.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, I'm a newbie and need to learn more on this.
I'm going to do an EV from a small truck and wanted to get better
performance from the motor so I was planning to dump the automatic
transmission and go straight to the drive shaft. How much more motor would
I need? I was considering an Advanced 9" and 192V pack (or 240v) with a
Zilla 1K controller. Would this provide me with the power/distance
necessary to go the 45 mile round trip to work and back? The donor is a '91
Dodge Dakota. (formerly with a 5.2L V8)
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: adapters?
mike golub wrote:
> I live in Alaska, and my wife refuses to drive a manual tranny...
> Is driving an electric manual tranny car an different then when
> it was gas powered?
Yes!
Fundamentally, EVs don't need transmissions. No vehicle built as an EV
from scratch has a transmission.
Most conversions still have a transmission because it came with the car,
and it was easier to leave it in than to remove it. And, given that the
transmission is "free", people use it to let them get away with a
smaller, cheaper motor and controller.
My wife won't drive a car with an automatic. But, she drives my EV
(which has a manual transmission). Why? Because she doesn't have to use
the clutch, and doesn't have to shift it. She just leaves it in 2nd gear
all the time, and drives. 2nd is just fine for everything up to 50 mph
or so, and there's no place on her usual routes that needs more speed.
But, she does need to shift it into reverse. She hates it, and complains
bitterly about it. So, one of my projects is to add a reversing
contactor, so the motor can be reversed electrically instead. Then, she
won't ever have to shift at all, and she'll be happy :-)
You can do the same. Use a little bigger motor and controller than you
otherwise would, and include a reversing contactor. Then you can leave
the transmission in one gear, ignore the clutch, and just drive.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do think what Dave is doing is entirely possible, but at
1,000+ motor amps, you're going to see a huge efficiency
loss to get that kind of horsepower with a low voltage
setup. 1,000 motor amps appears to have about a 55%
efficiency from what I've read on this list.
With a direct drive setup, 1:1 ratio, a low voltage 1,000+
amp per motor setup could deliver the needed power to the
wheels, and would be needed to do so since the power of an
electric motor with such a low voltage would peak at such a
low RPM. (8,000 amps or more in all, with 8 Eteks. That
would be evil...)
Can't wait to see what comes of it. I think what Dave wants
to do can be done, but I don't think he will be beating
Wayland this year. 11s would be quite an achievement,
considering how difficult 12s have been. If he does snatch
Wayland's record, I'll be very impressed.
Besides, Wayland has that hideous afterburner setup. That is
grossly inefficient as well as pumping those kinds of amps
into small motors, but sounds like lots of fun.
There are people that dump $100k+ into a gas car and have it
pulling 8s in the 1/4 mile at 150+ MPH. These same people
won't think anything about spending $50k on a new engine
alone. I see little reason why someone with just as deep
pockets couldn't do a street-legal EV that performed in a
similar manner, AND could be driven to the track 30 miles
away, raced all day, and driven back, all on one charge.
It's just that this EV technology is unknown territory. Many
simply don't know about it, or are too scared that they'll
screw something up thereby rendering their investment
worthless.
About 1,000 pounds of Kokam Li Poly + twin Zilla 2Ks + twin
WarP 11s for a > 300V setup in a sub 2,500 pound car would
be rediculous. Could you imagine an EV approxamately the
same weight as 'White Zombie' with 600 horsepower at the
wheels?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> About 1,000 pounds of Kokam Li Poly + twin Zilla 2Ks + twin
> WarP 11s for a > 300V setup in a sub 2,500 pound car would
> be rediculous.
I don't think you'd need two 11s, one 13 would probably be okay,
though I'd like to see specs on both of them. The 11s, from what I
recall hearing here, are not best equipped for racing. You shouldn't
need two Zillas, either.
There are batteries out there with better power density than the
Kokams, but they require a LOT more wiring -- 450kw at roughly that
weight (in pounds). That'd cost roughly $100k or so *alone*.
> Could you imagine an EV approxamately the
> same weight as 'White Zombie' with 600 horsepower at the
> wheels?
One Factory Five GTM plus a zilla, 13", and about 500 pounds of
batteries and whatnot. Probably under 2700lbs. If the 13" is
really capable of going 4kRPM, you're talking 200mph top-end with
a 1g launch, no gears. More or less.
Yeah, I can imagine. I just can't bring myself to spend that kind
of money -- it's insane.
-Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
I don't know how many folks saw my previous post, so I'll repost:
My pusher trailer is up for sale. See
http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher.htm for more information.
History: This is JB Straubel's original Pusher "version 1". I bought
it from him several years ago, ready to go, for $500. I used it to get
my Rabbit up to Sacramento, and it worked great! On the way back,
though, the engine overheated (I pushed it too hard), and I had it
completely rebuilt (several hundred more bucks). I thought it would be
a worthwhile investment, as I was spending hundreds bringing my car to
various NEDRA races, but my situation changed, and the arrival of a baby
1.5 years ago means the days of long roadtrips to racetracks are over
for a while. I haven't used it much since then, but it is still legally
registered as a trailer in CA. It is located in the SF Bay Area
(Fremont).
I bought a real gas tank for it to replace the two plastic gas cans (see
pictures). It will need to get mounted and the fuel line plumbed. I
also painted it red. It looks better, but not much. Still will turn
heads.
I'd be happy to answer any further questions offline. All told, I have
a bit over $1000 invested in it and will consider any reasonable offer,
(not necessarily above $1000).
Dean Grannes
1979 VW Rabbit, Blue Phantom
1959 MGA, Fire Chief
Pusher trailer
Zappy scooter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can anybody remind me how the Battpros are supposed to work? Or be set
up and adjusted?
I am running a little low on Rudman Regs right now...and I REALLY want
to be driving my new-to-me EV!
Michael B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Westland said: "About 1,000 pounds of Kokam Li Poly + twin Zilla 2Ks +
twin WarP 11s for a > 300V setup in a sub 2,500 pound car would be
ridiculous.Could you imagine an EV approximately the same weight as 'White
Zombie' with 600 horsepower at the wheels?"
I can, I've been there, felt that! The "Maniac Mazda" weighed about 2300
pounds with about that horsepower when it was running 11 flat ETs.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
I do think what Dave is doing is entirely possible, but at
1,000+ motor amps, you're going to see a huge efficiency
loss to get that kind of horsepower with a low voltage
setup. 1,000 motor amps appears to have about a 55%
efficiency from what I've read on this list.
With a direct drive setup, 1:1 ratio, a low voltage 1,000+
amp per motor setup could deliver the needed power to the
wheels, and would be needed to do so since the power of an
electric motor with such a low voltage would peak at such a
low RPM. (8,000 amps or more in all, with 8 Eteks. That
would be evil...)
Can't wait to see what comes of it. I think what Dave wants
to do can be done, but I don't think he will be beating
Wayland this year. 11s would be quite an achievement,
considering how difficult 12s have been. If he does snatch
Wayland's record, I'll be very impressed.
Besides, Wayland has that hideous afterburner setup. That is
grossly inefficient as well as pumping those kinds of amps
into small motors, but sounds like lots of fun.
There are people that dump $100k+ into a gas car and have it
pulling 8s in the 1/4 mile at 150+ MPH. These same people
won't think anything about spending $50k on a new engine
alone. I see little reason why someone with just as deep
pockets couldn't do a street-legal EV that performed in a
similar manner, AND could be driven to the track 30 miles
away, raced all day, and driven back, all on one charge.
It's just that this EV technology is unknown territory. Many
simply don't know about it, or are too scared that they'll
screw something up thereby rendering their investment
worthless.
About 1,000 pounds of Kokam Li Poly + twin Zilla 2Ks + twin
WarP 11s for a > 300V setup in a sub 2,500 pound car would
be rediculous. Could you imagine an EV approxamately the
same weight as 'White Zombie' with 600 horsepower at the
wheels?
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My employer sent out an email about incentives for alternate fuel vehicles and
mass transit. What started as a note from myself to mention they had nothing
about alternate fuel vehicles in their commuter policy or on the website turned
into someone in environmental services curious about my electric truck looking
into getting an outlet for me to plug into. Two main issues.
1) Currently I have a 120 volt russco SC 18-120 with a boost transformer it
always pulls max current so that really isn't outlet friendly. Is this just how
it is and I need to buy a new charger or is this something I need fixed?
2) The real issue is if they do find out they can give me something but it will
be a new installation what to ask for? Is Avcon still good if it's going to be
220/208 to work with all the code? I think a regular 110 outlet is fine but
might not be for them is there anything new in the last couple years for 110 an
EVs?
As this may be my one and only chance to get an outlet and I've been out of
this for years I just want to be prepared with any new options there may be.
That and I'm almost wishing I never wrote that email because my EV has issues
and I'd rather not show it off.
Thanks for any help,
Mark Hastings
S-15 EV Pickup.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:33 PM 4/12/2005, you wrote:
2) The real issue is if they do find out they can give me something but it
will be a new installation what to ask for? Is Avcon still good if it's
going to be 220/208 to work with all the code? I think a regular 110
outlet is fine but might not be for them is there anything new in the last
couple years for 110 an EVs?
How about just getting the same panel they install in parks for people with
Motorhomes?
Both 240V and 120V outlets with standard jacks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Philip Marino wrote:
> > All copper cable of the same gauge should be "rated" for the same
> > current. Finer stranding will help only at very high (radio)
> > frequencies, but not at DC ( or DC chopped at 10's of KHz, like EV
> > controllers do it).
> >
> > There are advantages to very finely stranded welding cable, but
> > current capability, resistance, and heating will be the same as for
> > coarser stranded cable of the same gauge.
>
> It seems like their table conflicts with that though?
>
>
<http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.asp?ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr
=3142>
The discrepancy may be in the way that McMaster lumped the cable
recommendations into a single table.
Looking at the manufacturer's recommnedations for Super Vu-Tron (a Class
M welding cable):
<http://www.mygeneralcable.com/Gcable/en/US/res/IPCS/CrdMg/CarolIndu/Sup
erVu-TronWeldingcable/NA/Chart/Web/SuperWeldingCableChart.jpg>
we see that the recommendation for a 150 ft run at 150A is for #2 cable,
as McMaster's table states. We also see that the manufacturer
(Carol/General Cable/BICC) bases its ampacity recommendations on a 4V
loss in the cable, 60% duty cycle (the table is for welding
applications, remember), and a copper temperature of 140F/60C in an
ambient of 104F/40C.
Looking at another manufacturer's (Essex) recommendations for their
"standard" (Class K) welding cable:
<http://store.weldingdepot.com/pdf/weldingcable.pdf>
we see that the recommendation for a 150ft run at 150A is also for #2
cable, contrary to McMaster's table. However, this manufacturer's table
is based on 105C conductor temperature in a 40C ambient, 50% duty cycle,
and a 4V loss in the cable @ 25C conductor temp (5V @ 105C).
Essex's "UL-listed", 90C, Class K cable has a different ampacity than
their 105C non-UL cable, and their recommnedation for it is 2/0 for a
150ft run at 150A.
McMaster's table may have (attempted to) translate the 'standard' cable
ampacity recommendations to the same conditions as the Super Vu-Tron's,
however, this seems to neglect that the 'standard' cable is rated to
105C while the Class M cable is rated to only 90C.
Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> They are playing marketing games. The Vu-Tron cable has a
> higher insulation temperature rating than "standard" cable
> (by which they mean the cheapest possible 40 deg.C cable).
> Thus, you can run it much hotter before its insulation will
> fail. Thus you can stuff more current thru it.
I'm not convinced this is the case, since the Super Vu-Tron is rated for
90C while non-UL Class K cable (which seems to be what McMaster defines
as "standard") is rated 105C.
The big difference may be that all 2/0 cables do not appear to be the
same guage!
Essex doesn't state the stranding of their Class K cable, just that it
is 30AWG.
Carol's Super Vu-Tron is Class M (34AWG), with 3300 strands, and their
Carolprene 90C Class K is 1248 strands of 30AWG. Carol/General
Cable/BICC appears to rate their Carolprene and Super Vu-Tron
identically with respect to ampacity, so the difference in McMaster's
table should not be not due to the difference between 30 and 34AWG.
ROME and Nehring both offer 2/0 Class K cable with "rope stranding", but
ROME's is 1330 strands while Nehring's is 1295 (both are of 30AWG).
Some other potentially interesting factoids:
2/0 Cable stranding conductor OD cable OD lbs/1000ft
=========================== =========== ============ ======== ==========
Essex Class K 90C UL-listed ?/30AWG 0.485" 0.645" 545
Essex Class K 105C ?/30AWG 0.460" 0.620" 548
ROME Class K 1330/30AWG 0.463" 0.640" 508
Nehring Class K 1295/30AWG 0.490" 0.640" 500
Super Vu-Tron Class M 90C 3300/34AWG 0.635" 495
Carolprene Class K, 90C 1248/30AWG 0.620" 485
2/0 is specified as having a diameter of 9.26592mm, and 0.0779
ohms/1000ft.
#30 is specified as having a diameter of 0.254mm, and 103.2 ohms/1000ft.
#34 is specified as having a diameter of 0.16002mm, and 260.9
ohms/1000ft.
So:
Cable crossection (mm^2) ohms/1000ft
========== ================== ===========
2/0 67.432 0.0779
1330/30AWG 67.392 0.0776
3300/34AWG 66.367 0.0791
1295/30AWG 65.619 0.0797
1248/30AWG 63.237 0.0827
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've read the NEC code about EV charging outlets a couple times and I'm
pretty sure they ONLY apply to outlets on permanently installed EV
chargers.
A simple outlet is NOT an EV charging station, it's just an outlet.
AS long as it's an ordinary electrical outlet, you only have to meet the
NEC code covering exterior outlets (I asuume the outlet is outside?)
What you plug into a given outlet is irelevent to the code.
> 2) The real issue is if they do find out they can give me something but it
> will be a new installation what to ask for? Is Avcon still good if it's
> going to be 220/208 to work with all the code? I think a regular 110
> outlet is fine but might not be for them is there anything new in the last
> couple years for 110 an EVs?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've got some moped wheels I used on my electric trike. They need new
brake shoes, but nobody carries them.
I was thinking of just buying some of the brake lining that Mcmasters
sells and rebuilding them myself.
What kind of adhesive should I use to bond the new lining to the old metal
shoes?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Russco should be adjustable for current draw.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:33:49
To:[email protected]
Subject: Work looking into an EV parking spot. Question on plug type?
My employer sent out an email about incentives for alternate fuel vehicles and
mass transit. What started as a note from myself to mention they had nothing
about alternate fuel vehicles in their commuter policy or on the website turned
into someone in environmental services curious about my electric truck looking
into getting an outlet for me to plug into. Two main issues.
1) Currently I have a 120 volt russco SC 18-120 with a boost transformer it
always pulls max current so that really isn't outlet friendly. Is this just how
it is and I need to buy a new charger or is this something I need fixed?
2) The real issue is if they do find out they can give me something but it will
be a new installation what to ask for? Is Avcon still good if it's going to be
220/208 to work with all the code? I think a regular 110 outlet is fine but
might not be for them is there anything new in the last couple years for 110 an
EVs?
As this may be my one and only chance to get an outlet and I've been out of
this for years I just want to be prepared with any new options there may be.
That and I'm almost wishing I never wrote that email because my EV has issues
and I'd rather not show it off.
Thanks for any help,
Mark Hastings
S-15 EV Pickup.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know if this has ever been addressed here before, I have a
rhetorical question. If money were no object (Loottery, rich Uncle died,
Government grant) what kind of EV would you build? What batteries,
controller, motor(s), and why?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "David C. Navas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "John Westlund" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
About 1,000 pounds of Kokam Li Poly + twin Zilla 2Ks + twin
WarP 11s for a > 300V setup in a sub 2,500 pound car would
be rediculous.
I don't think you'd need two 11s, one 13 would probably be okay,
though I'd like to see specs on both of them. The 11s, from what I
recall hearing here, are not best equipped for racing. You shouldn't
need two Zillas, either.
There are batteries out there with better power density than the
Kokams, but they require a LOT more wiring -- 450kw at roughly that
weight (in pounds). That'd cost roughly $100k or so *alone*.
Could you imagine an EV approxamately the
same weight as 'White Zombie' with 600 horsepower at the
wheels?
One Factory Five GTM plus a zilla, 13", and about 500 pounds of
batteries and whatnot. Probably under 2700lbs. If the 13" is
really capable of going 4kRPM, you're talking 200mph top-end with
a 1g launch, no gears. More or less.
Yeah, I can imagine. I just can't bring myself to spend that kind
of money -- it's insane.
-Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:59 PM 4/12/2005, you wrote:
I don't know if this has ever been addressed here before, I have a
rhetorical question. If money were no object (Loottery, rich Uncle died,
Government grant) what kind of EV would you build? What batteries,
controller, motor(s), and why?
I need 2 different ones.
#1) Sparrow that WORKS. i.e. a Pizzabutt Sparrow (so it can hold
groceries/gym bag) with a Z1K, PFC-30, and some of the new Lithium
batteries. (The good ones, not the ThunderSky's) Probably 10 or 20K just
for the batteries.
#2) Pickup Truck - full size. I end up having to haul stuff
periodically. My F-250 is nice, but I'd like an electric version. Say,
Dual motors (whatever is appropriate, I think 8" might be too small), a
Z2k, PFC-50, and once again, some $$$ batteries. I'm seriously looking
into doing this conversion using floodeds, but it sure would be nice to
have more range and less weight.
I'd add a 20KW quiet & efficient generator to the cost. Something that can
be put in the back for range extending.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You may be correct but they can be very simple and generic bearings &
differentials could be substituted. There are a few EV's that don't have
any orginal drive train. I know it is possible. Could be worth it for the
light weight. Lawrence Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Possible gliders from Arcane autos.
They might be small cars, but it would be tough cramming enough
batteries in them to get any decent range/power. Plus getting parts
for them could be a nightmare. Those vehicles are on the edge of
obsolesce.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
--- John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 01:59 PM 4/12/2005, you wrote:
> >I don't know if this has ever been addressed here
> before, I have a
> >rhetorical question. If money were no object
> (Loottery, rich Uncle died,
> >Government grant) what kind of EV would you build?
> What batteries,
> >controller, motor(s), and why?
>
> I need 2 different ones.
> #1) Sparrow that WORKS. i.e. a Pizzabutt Sparrow
> (so it can hold
> groceries/gym bag) with a Z1K, PFC-30, and some of
> the new Lithium
> batteries. (The good ones, not the ThunderSky's)
> Probably 10 or 20K just
> for the batteries.
In Mark Hanson's piece on EVS21, Electronova?
claims $300/kw LiPoly? batts!! I'm going to call them
about it!
>
> #2) Pickup Truck - full size. I end up having to
> haul stuff
> periodically. My F-250 is nice, but I'd like an
> electric version. Say,
> Dual motors (whatever is appropriate, I think 8"
> might be too small), a
> Z2k, PFC-50, and once again, some $$$ batteries.
> I'm seriously looking
> into doing this conversion using floodeds, but it
> sure would be nice to
> have more range and less weight.
> I'd add a 20KW quiet & efficient generator to the
> cost. Something that can
> be put in the back for range extending.
How about a smaller though powerful tow vehicle
like a older EV Blazer, smaller and more aero and pull
a trailer when more stuff hauling is needed?
Works for the E-woody and it's far from powerful.
It would easily get by with just a 10kw gen for
range extending or 12-15kw for unlimited range then
and even mount it in the rear quarter panel.
An water cooled motorcycle engine of 250cc or so
and drive a 8" ADC, ect with shunt fields for the gen
would be fairly light, simple and powerful.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I had written:
> It seems that after years of whining about how NEDRA's voltage classes are
> unfair, and after seeing how certain vehicles deemed unsafe are banned from
> running on NHRA tracks (vehicles like electrathon types), they've finally
> gone off to start their own organization. I wish them well.
>
>
When I make a statement that is incorrect, I need to make it right. I had a
phone
conversation with Dave Cloud today, where he notified me I had done so with the
above
statement. To be frank, most of the above is true, especially the whining about
NEDRA
rules :-), but, Dave has never said he thought the rules were 'unfair', so I
stand
corrected and apologize for the error. Yes, he admitted he's called them
stupid, idiotic,
and dumb, but not unfair. He went on to say NEDRA's rules have always been
fair...cool.
We actually had a nice talk about his new street bodied race car. I say 'street
bodied',
because it won't be 'street legal', so sadly for me, Dave and I won't be racing
head to
head...at least as far as NEDRA race classes are concerned. Personally, I love
competition, it's good for the sport. He might, however, have to tangle with a
friend of
mine, Tim Brehm, in my newest race machine, Purple Phaze. Like Dave's car, this
minitruck
will not be street legal, will be trailered to the track, and will race in the
MC,
modified conversion class. I won't be so bold as to predict 11s because I know
how tough
that is to pull off, but low 14s and high 13s are pretty realistic for the
first 156V
version, and for the next version...oh oh, that's right, I can't talk about it
until
Friday!
Though Dave and I rarely agree on anything, he was a pretty good sport over my
recent jabs
at the Cloud NEVRA thing, and he didn't even mention my 'cockroach on wheels
bit'. He's a
very competitive guy, and seems to have had enough of my and others' ribbing
him over his
various racing vehicles being too unconventional, too bicycle-like, and too
much rolling
science project. Now, he's entering the world of recognizable street bodied
drag cars, and
he's taking me up on my offer from back on March 4th:
> As to voltage classes not being effective, the proof is in the results. To
> Dave Cloud, I
> simply say, show up with a steel bodied street legal car, one that isn't
> mutilated and
> totally dysfunctional, run it at 72 volts, and run 12's....come on Dave,
> bring it on!
Well, he came close....it's not street legal and will not be 72V, but it will
be a Geo
Metro packed with a power punch! I for one, am glad and excited to hear Dave is
readying a
steel bodied electric car to set the record straight.
Dave, consider yourself invited to the 'Wayland Invitational', time and date to
be
announced soon.
It's going to be a fun electric drag racing season!
See Ya........John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
the EPA is working on hydrualic hybrids for heavy
duty, urban cycle, hybrid applications. they claim
impressive fuel economy improvements in the city. see
:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/technology/#hydraulic
--- Quin Pendragon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> While compressed air as a long term storage system
> is certainly
> horribly inefficient, for immediate-use storage such
> as regen braking
> at traffic lights, I can't see the efficiency being
> that bad. Consider
> using a well insulated carbon-fibre pressure tank,
> and storing the
> energy for only 30 seconds to a minute (typical
> traffic light stop).
> If you view the compression/decompression as being
> close to adiabatic,
> and heat loss while in the tank being minimal due to
> insulation, then
> the only major losses are mechanical drag in the
> compresser and the
> small amount of heat soak due to the whole process
> not being totally
> adiabatic. Overall efficiency may be lower than that
> of a flywheel,
> but given that flywheels with usable storage
> capacity usually use
> exotic materials and are seldom seen outside
> research labs, I'd guess
> the cost would be significantly lower.
>
> If I recall rightly there was a group in Australia
> (Melbourne?) who
> had such a product aimed at short-haul delivery
> trucks. They claimed
> some large increase in efficiency for trucks during
> urban driving.
>
> On Apr 12, 2005 7:24 AM, Lee Hart
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > MOST efficient? I would think that a compressed
> air system would be the
> > LEAST efficient option.
> >
> > A big problem with air (or any gas) is that it
> gets hot when compressed,
> > and cools when it expands. When you store the hot
> compressed air in a
> > pressure tank, the tank heats up and the air
> cools. The cooler air loses
> > pressure, which represents an energy loss. The
> tank will gradually cool
> > back down to ambient temperauture, causing a
> further loss of pressure
> > and further energy losses.
> > [...]
>
>
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just rebuilt a 600A GE sepex controller to operate
up to 80Vdc bus voltage.
My 1995 Club Car has a series wound motor and my EZ-GO
sepex motor won't mount to the differential.
So, if anybody has a 48V GE Club Car compatible sepex
motor they're willing to trade (I'll pay shipping) let
me know. I may consider trading other stuff too. I
have an EZ-Go compatible NEV 72Vdc sepex motor I might
trade.
So, if you have an EZ-Go and want to go sepex high
power on your golfcart let me know. You could use 6
12Vdc batteries for this conversion (that's what I
used with this motor originally) This golf cart would
go 30 MPH with 14" wheels. Let's make a deal!!!!
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:31 PM 4/12/2005, you wrote:
> #2) Pickup Truck - full size. I end up having to haul stuff
> periodically. My F-250 is nice, but I'd like an electric version. Say,
> Dual motors (whatever is appropriate, I think 8" might be too small), a
> Z2k, PFC-50, and once again, some $$$ batteries. I'm seriously looking
> into doing this conversion using floodeds, but it sure would be nice to
> have more range and less weight. I'd add a 20KW quiet & efficient
generator to the
> cost. Something that can be put in the back for range extending.
How about a smaller though powerful tow vehicle
like a older EV Blazer, smaller and more aero and pull
a trailer when more stuff hauling is needed?
Not appropriate for my usage. My most common hauling is lumber, often 8 to
12' long. A Blazer isn't much more aero, and dealing with a trailer is a
PITA.
I sincerely doubt that a Blazer will only use 10KW at freeway speeds.
Frankly, I figure that a 20KW generator is only a range extender, not an
unlimited range add-on.
Also, do NOT use a motorcycle engine. They pollute a LOT. Use a small car
engine with all the emissions control stuff.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In Mark Hanson's piece on EVS21, Electronova?
> claims $300/kw LiPoly? batts!! I'm going to call them
> about it!
I have yet to hear back from them -- I sent an email.
Actually, several of them, over a long period of time.
Let me know if you get anywhere on the phone.
1) $300/kwh is for production sizes. It is a nice price point.
2) I fear their batteries may suffer crappy C-rates.
-Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Government grant) what kind of EV would you build? What batteries,
> controller, motor(s), and why?
I'd go find a batt. manufacturer ready to produce lithiums
in-size for the EV market, and fund enough cars to make it
practical to lower the costs.
I would desperately resist the notion to call it the FYGM
vehicle, so I'd probably go with "figment".
I'd want an RX-8 with 60-40 fold-down rear seats. Good balance between
my impractical desire for an Elise, and practical desire for family
transportation. Of course, dang thing would need to be redesigned
for weight.
-Dave
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--- Begin Message ---
A commercial Chrysler Crossfire conversion:
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/media.php?mediaID
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) h:(905)279-5885 c:(416)892-5885
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave and All,
--- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't know if this has ever been addressed here
> before, I have a
> rhetorical question. If money were no object
> (Loottery, rich Uncle died,
> Government grant) what kind of EV would you build?
> What batteries,
> controller, motor(s), and why?
I'd build 3!!
First a aero cabin motorcycle EV with 2 e-tek's for
eff, Sevcon controllers as it matches them well with
regen and reverse without contactors and 48vdc of SAFT
180 amphr ni-cads batts. 80mph with 100 mile range.
Next would be my Freedom EV 3wh composite
body/frame version of my E-woody with 96vdc of SAFT
180 amphr batts for a range of about 150 miles and do
80 mph with Semiens AC Motor/controller for eff, regen
with a sometimes generator of 10kw for unmlimited
range but can be left off when not needed. I'm
building this now with more modest batts, gen and
motor but still 100 mile range.
Last would be a all composite Van like the shape
of a Matrix/Vibe with 144vdc of SAFT 180 amphr
Ni cads and a Zilla controller going to 2 8" net gain
motors for real power for towing a trailer and a
generator of 12-15kw for unlimited range.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the
> correct color for
> high-voltage in hybrids and EVs is fluorescent
> orange. Is this correct?
> Is there a standard at all? (A particular Pantone
> number?)
I don't know about a Pantone number. I think the
standard that calls for orange sleeved HV cable in
hybrids and EV's is SAE J1127. I am at home right now
so I can't look up the exact verbiage but i don't
remember anything more specific than just orange.
~fortunat
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--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> What kind of adhesive should I use to bond the new lining to the old metal
> shoes?
Do the original shoes not have a single rivet in them at all?
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--- Begin Message ---
I like the idea of compressed air for regen and agree effency is not
great. A nitrogen charged accumulator and an incompressible fluid and a
positive displacement pump would work very well, but the added weight
might offset the gains.
I had this idea, use freon. put that phase change and thermal
properties to good use. A series of valves allow you to use regen
breaking to save brakes and some of the energy is used to either heat or
cool the cabin. An expansion motor instead of and expansion valve is
used and either piped to the cabin or the outside heat exchanger
depending on what you want. :-)
I think rear wheel drive for best acceleration and alternators up front
with field control for brakeing is probably a good layout. it avoids the
need for fancy controls.
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