EV Digest 4279
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: bus bars versus wire - was RE: Re: Wire Gauge questions
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: bus bars versus wire - was RE: Re: Wire Gauge questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Nash Rambler as an EV candidate?
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Hybrid slam article on Autobytel
by "Andrew Wysotski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Independent rear suspension
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Wire Gauge Questions
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: bus bars versus wire - was RE: Re: Wire Gauge questions
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Independent rear suspension
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Afterburner, was: Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) article: Jay Leno to own America's First Lithium iCeL (TM)Powered
"R-Car"Stuff
by "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Daihatsu Charade Meltdown
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hybrid slam article on Autobytel
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Nash Rambler as an EV candidate?
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: bus bars versus wire - was RE: Re: Wire Gauge questions
by "johnk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Optimum Mini-Pickup for Conversion?
by Larry Skidmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Hydraulic Hybrids
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: bus bars versus wire - was RE: Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Vas: Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Genset
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Diahartsu Charade Meltdown
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
But that problem is rediculously easy to solve. You put colored
connectors, or colored heatshrink on the ends of the cable.
Gadget has already mentioned this and it's not even an original idea
(though it is a good idea).
My truck was probably built close to 10 years ago. ALL of the HV cabling
is black, with red and black heatshrink and connector boots on all of the
cables. No problem figuring out where they go.
>
> But, nobody should pick wire colors *purely* for safety. The main reason
> to use colored wires is to prevent assembly errors and aid
> troubleshooting -- so you don't mix them up. By making both + and -
> wires orange, they are *increasing* the chance of hooking them up
> backwards!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, is the rigidity of the buss bars a consideration? For example if a
buss bar connects two batteries together, would it need some flex mechanism
so that it eventually does not work the connect or the posts loose? If so,
what is a common method for dealing with flex?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: April 13, 2005 10:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: bus bars versus wire - was RE: Re: Wire Gauge questions
Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
> So given the choice of using 4/0 cable or bus bars, which one will
> have the least amount of resistance?
For the same cross sectional area, they will both have the same resistance.
But the buss bar has more surface area. Therefore it runs cooler.
Therefore, it can carry a lot more current before it overheats and fails.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!"
-- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So given the choice of using 4/0 cable or bus bars, which one will
> have the least amount of resistance?
Hmm, sort of like asking "which is heavier, a crate of Lead or a pile of
Bricks?"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar"
Subject: Re: Nash Rambler as an EV candidate?
> They are a bit heavy. But of someone wants one, I know of two which
> could be for sale near me. SF bay area, CA, USA, Earth.
>
And what solar system? <G>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just read a very negative article on hybrids on Autobytel.com 's site. It
starts by saying they're evil and then goes on to say we're still supporting
foreign oil, creating future battery dumping problems, their used value will
"free fall" and you'd be more enviromental respectful to buy a few acres of
rainforest for a couple thousand buck then to waste your money on a hybrid.
Apparently repairs will be a nightmare, cause few shops can work on them,
etc
The advice was wait for hydrogen vehicles to hit the market and hybrids are
just a way to pospone us from getting off foreign oil.
I was very suprised by this article and wonder if hybrid batteries are going
to create dumping problems and if the vehicles will depreciate extra fast in
the resale market?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ooo, I like! I have been wanting to put independent rear suspension in
my mitsubish also, I am anxios to see what you come up with.
One thought was useing a VW transaxle, there are lots of aftermarket
parts to beef them up including new sideplates. These were the origons
of the indy car trannies. I believe the VW bus had larger shafts and is
a stronger unit, Otmar can chime in here. At least it is already flipped
for you.
The other thought was to use the corvette or Heidt replica ones in the
hot rod magazinzes like in the cobra kits
Jaguar XJ-6 is used in ERA kits
Look under a datsun 510,300Z. 300z has a subframe that might help mounting
googleing...
http://www.heidts.com/heiirs.htm
http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/techarticles/86279/
PS. inboard brakes look cool and reduce unsprung weight, but are
difficult to cool. Originally done for racing and phased out because of
cooling and torque problems, brakes were just more effective at the
wheel and new materials allowed other methods of lightening things up.
Unsprung weight is not as much a problem with an EV and air flow to the
brakes is(a big battery box in front) so I recomend staying away from
inboard brakes!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps orange was chosen for high voltage AC in which all lines are hot
and polarity is moot, and it just stuck for the battery lines too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isn't adding more motors the same as more voltage in one reguard.
for example the higer voltage is what allows a given motor to pull
more amps.getting a second equal motor or a longer version of the same
motor doubles the torque just as if the oltage was doubled on a single
motor which would allow twice the current flow and thus twice the
torque. Oh yeah, thats the series/parallel switch thingy.
All the talk about melting down the motor is also kinda moot because it
is being devided between the motors, the only place I can see this
mattering is the short hop from the battery to the controllers and they
can be paralleled too.
But I could se an argument where multiple motors/multiple controllers
should be another class.
1 motor at x voltage = y torque
2 motors at x voltage = 2y torque or 1 motor at 2x voltage = 2y torque
So someone might claim multiple motors are just a way around voltage
classes :-)
"the proof is in the timeslips" Roger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Brown, in his book " Convert It" recommends at least one bend in each
strap, to provide some flexiblility and prevent working the post seals
loose.
In general, there is a huge amount of useful information in this book. I
highly recommend it to anyone doing a conversion ( preferably before even
starting).
In my case, the only copper I could find locally was "half-hard", which made
it more difficult to bend, and more likely to stress the posts. So, I
annealed it, by heating it with a propane torch ( doesn't have to get very
hot) and now it bends VERY easily ( and is less likely to crack when
bending). Annealing may lower the resistivity a bit, also.
I'm using 1 inch wide by 0.060 inch thick ( as recommended in Mike's book).
That is more than sufficient for me, since I am using 8VGC's ( relatively
low current capability),
Phil
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: bus bars versus wire - was RE: Re: Wire Gauge questions
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:58:10 -0700
Lee, is the rigidity of the buss bars a consideration? For example if a
buss bar connects two batteries together, would it need some flex mechanism
so that it eventually does not work the connect or the posts loose? If so,
what is a common method for dealing with flex?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: April 13, 2005 10:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: bus bars versus wire - was RE: Re: Wire Gauge questions
Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
> So given the choice of using 4/0 cable or bus bars, which one will
> have the least amount of resistance?
For the same cross sectional area, they will both have the same resistance.
But the buss bar has more surface area. Therefore it runs cooler.
Therefore, it can carry a lot more current before it overheats and fails.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!"
-- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: Independent rear suspension
> ooo, I like! I have been wanting to put independent rear suspension in
> my mitsubish also, I am anxios to see what you come up with.
>
> One thought was useing a VW transaxle, there are lots of aftermarket
Hi Jeff;
Yes, that works just fine the University of New Haven did just that ,
in a EV pickup they ran in Tour de Sol, several years ago. It was a really
nice clean setup, motor stuck out back, as it did in the VW. Gave them
lottsa real estate forward for batteries. Vehicle goes into hiding between
Tds's Maybe searching Mike Bianchi's TDA archives would turn up some pix?
Just a thought, it's been done before.
Seeya
Bob
> parts to beef them up including new sideplates. These were the origons
> of the indy car trannies. I believe the VW bus had larger shafts and is
> a stronger unit, Otmar can chime in here. At least it is already flipped
> for you.
>
> The other thought was to use the corvette or Heidt replica ones in the
> hot rod magazinzes like in the cobra kits
> Jaguar XJ-6 is used in ERA kits
> Look under a datsun 510,300Z. 300z has a subframe that might help mounting
>
> googleing...
> http://www.heidts.com/heiirs.htm
> http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/techarticles/86279/
>
> PS. inboard brakes look cool and reduce unsprung weight, but are
> difficult to cool. Originally done for racing and phased out because of
> cooling and torque problems, brakes were just more effective at the
> wheel and new materials allowed other methods of lightening things up.
> Unsprung weight is not as much a problem with an EV and air flow to the
> brakes is(a big battery box in front) so I recomend staying away from
> inboard brakes!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:45 PM 13/04/05 -0700, you wrote:
> afterburner bypass
>
What is an afterburner bypass?
Thanks
Rush
White Zombie has two 8" DC motors, conected mechanically always in
paralell, but electrically a 'gearshift' is done by connecting them
electrically in series and using a controller to keep the current under
control at lower RPMs, then once the controller comes out of current limit
they are reconnected in paralell. On the street, they are powered from the
controller, but on the strip, a contactor bypasses the controller, putting
the batteries straight to the motors. Around 2500 to 3000 Amps are
delivered from the batteries, resulting in a ... "significant" boost in
power, referred to as afterburner due to the relative effects on the vehicle.
White Zombie has apparently had a lot of work done over the northern
winter, so this information is not up to date. Hopefully the results will
be more like 'hyperspace' than 'afterburner'.
regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why don't we contact Mr. Leno and give him a heads up.
I already tried to find an email address for him.
Maybe we can contact him through his agent.
I know that Jay has an old EV in his stable. Perhaps someone could build him
a nice kit EV that really works as part of the show.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David
Comments inserted
At 04:53 PM 14/04/05 +1000, David Sharpe wrote:
I lent my EV to another member (AM) for promotional purposes & for
showing to other aspiring EV builders.
Good
It came back in worse condition than it went.
Not so good
The EV has batteries <snip> There are three parallel strings of Panasonic
LC-LA1233P
(12V 33Ahr) 144V nominal, so 36 batteries <snip>
Do these batteries have individual bypass regulators? From your comment
below, I assume not. From what I have observed, individual regulators are a
must for AGMs in order not to murder them. I am fitting them, and will be
using them to control the charger (more below).
What has happened is that in the approx centre of mass of the back seat
batteries there is evidence of heat & pressure as one bat has started
ballooning and others near it have started to melt.
Melt? That's a lot of heat. Is it centered about a post, or about a
mid-battery cell?
AM did a 90k return trip <snip> at about 35mph causing the
DCPS-1200 to squeal.
I believe that the squeal is it going into thermal cut-back and dropping
switching frequency, but others may (will) know.
So what has caused this Chernobyl? Is pushing the batteries too far the
problem?
Possibly - here is a hypothesis, that others may pick holes in. Battery
that has died is in the middle of a block - so it is hottest. So it should
have more capacity and lower terminal voltage than its' neighbours. So
discharge is unlikely to be the immediate cause. Due to its position, it
may reach full charge significantly before the others, therefore it may
have suffered significant overcharging, reducing its' Ah, so it went 'flat'
first, reversing the 'flat' cell, and then cooking it.
Is it the charger?
Can the NG3 be modded to make it more suited to AGM batts?
I think not the charger, but the charging system (or lack of a system).
Should the batts be reconfigured to 12 series groups of 3 paralleled
batts?
By observation, rather than experience, NO, (learn from others' mistakes).
You would have no idea that one of a paralelled group is failing until it
pulls its buddies down. Keep them seperate and monitor them individually.
Should I fit bypass diodes & voltage limiting circuit to each 12V group?
Of some kind. Lee Hart has a simple way, Rich Rudman has a complex way. I
went the complex way, since I am 'value adding' the regulation, looking at
the low battery latched alarm, and controlling the charger by replacing the
'bypassing' leds with optos - first to fire knocks the (dumb) charger back
to reduced rate, once all bypassing (latching the outputs) run on for time.
Should I torture AM and get the truth out of him?
Why not, just for fun! Even in a quiet vehicle, the sounds of a venting
battery would be hard to hear.
Your comments will be gratefully apprec'td.
David Sharpe
regards
James Massey
'78 Daihatsu 1300kg truck, dual strings of Orbital AGMs, with individual
monitors and regulators.
Not finished, can't give results yet.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
As a happy Honda hybrid owner, I'd like to respond to the following:
Andrew Wysotski wrote:
> I just read a very negative article on hybrids on Autobytel.com 's site. It
> starts by saying they're evil and then goes on to say we're still supporting
> foreign oil....
In part, that's true, as the current crop of hybrids cannot be grid recharged
and so need
to use gas, just like any other car. Honda and Toyota are both guilty of
pushing their
stupid mantra 'you never have to plug it in' to the point of being nauseating.
They should
at least be honest and add 'you still need to go to the gas station'. That
said, with my
2000 Honda Insight still delivering stunning fuel economy as high as 92 mpg
over hundreds
of miles at 57-62 mph (not just for a few short miles) and driven without
playing the 'how
high can I get the mpg up to' game, it still consistently gives 65-69 mpg in
the city and
75-80 mpg on the freeway now more than 5 years after I first drove it off the
showroom
floor...correction, away from the car hauler since I was at the dealership when
they
off-loaded the car....the argument can be that hybrids like mine dramatically
reduce
dependence on foreign oil.
> , creating future battery dumping problems....
NiMH batteries are known to use fairly benign chemicals and are recyclable, so
no battery
dumping problems.
> their used value will "free fall" ....
Like most all other cars you buy brand new, yes, my Insight's value was going
down with
each passing year, but as late, the value has turned around and they now are
bringing top
dollar. There are reports from the Honda - Hybrid DL of members regularly being
offered
more than they paid for their cars.
> and you'd be more enviromental respectful to buy a few acres of
> rainforest for a couple thousand buck then to waste your money on a hybrid.
Pretty negative stuff, for sure. I for one, feel my investment in my hybrid to
be one of
the most rewarding of any car purchase in my life...this includes the brand new
Porsche
911SC I bought back in '78. I don't feel the money was wasted by any stretch of
the
imagination. Though I will and always will, prefer driving EVs, I get a lot of
enjoyment
out of this car's amazing technology.
> Apparently repairs will be a nightmare, because few shops can work on them,
> etc. ......
That has actually turned out to be true, for some who have had nightmare
experiences at the
Honda and Toyota dealerships. Sometimes, when you step up to be an early
adopter, you pay
the price. My experience, and I believe for the majority of others as well, has
been one
of super reliability with no major problems to report. Other than a pesky
automatic window
roll-down feature of the driver's door that sometimes, isn't so 'automatic'
that was
repaired once on warranty only to occasionally come back to bug me, my Insight
has been
repair-free...typical Honda. When my Insight finally does have any major
problems, it will
most likely be turned into a super high performing electric car, anyway :-) For
now, it
still looks showroom new, still runs perfect, still rocks hard with its custom
sound
system (featured in Car Audio and Electronics magazine in Oct. '01).
> The advice was wait for hydrogen vehicles to hit the market and hybrids are
> just a way to postpone us from getting off foreign oil.
Geesh....more fools going for fool cells! The last part of this 'postpone us
from getting
off foreign oil' is true. I tell people that hybrids are merely training wheels
for the
average folks who have not yet graduated to pure EVs.
> I was very suprised by this article and wonder if hybrid batteries are going
> to create dumping problems and if the vehicles will depreciate extra fast in
> the resale market?
Only time will tell, I guess. By the way, the last time I put some of that
foreign oil
(gas by another name) in my Insight, was in mid February! Yes, I don't drive it
as much as
I do my electric car, and yes, I drive a service truck to and from work five
days a week,
but when I took a freeway cruise the other night with Steely Dan's 'Everything
Must Go'
playing at irresponsible internal organ massaging volume levels, it's hi fi
sound thrilled
me, but it was the digital Insight dash gauge displaying the fuel level was
still at 3/4
full, that made me smile...oh yeah, the HV battery level was also at 'full'.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe;
We must be in agreement, since we both get out information from the same
source. Non?
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Philippe Borges
> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 5:11 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
>
> yes BUT self discharge will hurt them too, it's a compromise...
> NEVER short a Li-ion cell !!!
>
> You will find all data you need here and understand why date code is vital
> in Li-ion batterie purchase :^)
>
> http://www.buchmann.ca/Chap15-page2.asp
>
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:03 PM
> Subject: Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
>
>
>> If they're stored at a lower SOC does the degradation slow down even
> further? If they are stored with terminals
>> shorted, does it come close to stopping degradation? Or, does the
> separator decompose no matter what?
>> --
>> Stay Charged!
>> Hump
>> "Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left
> untreated, it develops into Arrogance, which is often
>> fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> > Behalf Of Philippe Borges
>> > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 2:43 PM
>> > To: [email protected]
>> > Subject: Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
>> >
>> > surplus Li-ion (more than 1 year old) is no way, try a capacity test on
>> > surplus li-ion you will be disapointed.
>> > add that they have to be stored 50% SOC at 0� C otherwise they will lose
>> > faster capacity and even 1 years old may be near half dead.
>> >
>> > Philippe
>> >
>> > Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
>> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
>> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
>> > Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
>> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <[email protected]>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 12:43 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Apr 12, 2005 1:02 AM, Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> > > An EV enthusiast was mentioning that large Lithium batteries can
> be
>> >> > > obtained from US Military Surplus. He says these batteries were
> from
>> >> > > dismantled missiles.
>> >> >
>> >> > If they were in missles, I doubt they were rechargable lithiums. 8^)
>> >> >
>> >> > Probably primary cells.
>> >>
>> >> Probably correct. But it's worth knowing that the military (UK
>> >> military I'm talking about) are large users of Li-Ion rechargeable
>> >> cells, typically the most expensive and energy dense kind, that they
>> >> use for portable equipment, of what purpose I don't know and don't
>> >> want to know :)
>> >> They basically buy an "energy pack" and return it for recharging or
>> >> recyling as appropriate when empty.
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are here.
http://anzwers.org/free/universe/universe.html
At 01:10 AM 4/14/2005, you wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar"
Subject: Re: Nash Rambler as an EV candidate?
> They are a bit heavy. But of someone wants one, I know of two which
> could be for sale near me. SF bay area, CA, USA, Earth.
>
And what solar system? <G>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The wave of the future..-jk
http://www.firstscience.com/site/articles/superconductors.asp
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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--- Begin Message ---
i suppose but shorted storage you talk about is ONLY for nicad cell.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
> Philippe;
>
> We must be in agreement, since we both get out information from the same
source. Non?
>
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left
untreated, it develops into Arrogance, which is often
> fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
>
>
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Philippe Borges
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 5:11 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
> >
> > yes BUT self discharge will hurt them too, it's a compromise...
> > NEVER short a Li-ion cell !!!
> >
> > You will find all data you need here and understand why date code is
vital
> > in Li-ion batterie purchase :^)
> >
> > http://www.buchmann.ca/Chap15-page2.asp
> >
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
> >
> >
> >> If they're stored at a lower SOC does the degradation slow down even
> > further? If they are stored with terminals
> >> shorted, does it come close to stopping degradation? Or, does the
> > separator decompose no matter what?
> >> --
> >> Stay Charged!
> >> Hump
> >> "Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left
> > untreated, it develops into Arrogance, which is often
> >> fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> >> > Behalf Of Philippe Borges
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 2:43 PM
> >> > To: [email protected]
> >> > Subject: Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
> >> >
> >> > surplus Li-ion (more than 1 year old) is no way, try a capacity test
on
> >> > surplus li-ion you will be disapointed.
> >> > add that they have to be stored 50% SOC at 0� C otherwise they will
lose
> >> > faster capacity and even 1 years old may be near half dead.
> >> >
> >> > Philippe
> >> >
> >> > Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> >> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> >> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> >> > Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
> >> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > To: <[email protected]>
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 12:43 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> On Apr 12, 2005 1:02 AM, Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >> > > An EV enthusiast was mentioning that large Lithium batteries
can
> > be
> >> >> > > obtained from US Military Surplus. He says these batteries were
> > from
> >> >> > > dismantled missiles.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If they were in missles, I doubt they were rechargable lithiums.
8^)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Probably primary cells.
> >> >>
> >> >> Probably correct. But it's worth knowing that the military (UK
> >> >> military I'm talking about) are large users of Li-Ion rechargeable
> >> >> cells, typically the most expensive and energy dense kind, that they
> >> >> use for portable equipment, of what purpose I don't know and don't
> >> >> want to know :)
> >> >> They basically buy an "energy pack" and return it for recharging
or
> >> >> recyling as appropriate when empty.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Just a newbie to ev, planning first conversion early next year. With so much
being made of the weight/range/capacity of bus bar vs. 4/0 wire etc. for 10ths
of a % on performance, has anyone done a comparative analysis of mini-pickups
(e.g. gutted weight vs. carrying capacity) for optimized range? I know that
rodders used to acid etch nonstructural panels to reduce weight; anyone with
experience here?
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I looked into the specs on the equipment to do this and was very
> dissapointed with the efficiencies. What I looked at, was as
> efficient at only 1 output as the lower end of a DC motor. :-(
Just like electric motors, all the mass-marketed stuff is optimized for
"cheap" rather than "efficient". But there are exceptions if you know
where to look.
I've been talking to Ernie Parker at Hennepin Technical College. He and
his students have built a large number of hydraulic vehicles over the
years. He recommended the Char-Lynn (Eaton) series 2000 motors. Look at
these specs:
size 8" long x 5" x 4.25"
weight 22 lbs
speed 742 rpm continuous, 924 rpm max
(53 mph continuous, 66 mph max. with a 24" dia tire)
torque 219 ft-lbs continuous, 330 ft-lbs max
shaft 1.25" dia. x 2", roller bearings, 4500 lbs side load capacity
(suitable for wheel motor)
efficiency 90-95%
price $367 each in single-piece quantities
Hydraulic motors are somewhat like PM motors in that their losses are
proportional to rpm. so they have to be sized carefully, or your
light-load losses will be high and your efficiency low at very light
loads.
> The acumulators are a lot of steel, great for a fed-ex truck but
> perhaps we will need a aluminum accumulator and a low pressure
> (<1000psi) system.
The accumulator is your "battery", so its size depends on how much power
you want and for how long. He has a motorcycle with an accumulator
that's the size of a 2-liter pop bottle.
> I missed the beggining of this thread, why is this being considered in
> place of an electric system?
I was thinking of hydraulics *in addition* to an electric drive system.
The hydraulics eliminate the transmission, differential, drive shafts,
and all associated drive line parts. You mount hydraulic motors in each
wheel, put a hydraulic pump on the traction motor, and use an
accumulator to capture energy for regenerative braking and return it for
faster accelleration. Now you can use a simple series traction motor and
crude controller, and still have smooth speed control and powerful
regen.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron asked:
>> Lee, is the rigidity of the buss bars a consideration?
Philip Marino wrote:
> Mike Brown, in his book "Convert It" recommends at least one bend
> in each strap, to provide some flexibility and prevent working
> the post seals loose.
Yes; I agree completely. Never use a flat straight piece of bussbar (or
wire) to connect two batteries. The batteries will always move a little
due to road vibration, expansion/contraction from temperature changes,
swelling of the case as they age, etc. Even slight amounts of movement
create huge strains on the battery terminals. This will cause bad
connections and leaks over time.
You must put bends in the wire or bussbar so the ends can move a little.
Make them "C" or "L" or "S" shaped. You should be able to push on the
ends that will connect to the battery posts and see them move 1/4" or
so.
> In general, there is a huge amount of useful information in this book.
Absolutely! While I might nitpick with Mike at times, in general this is
a great book for practical advice.
> In my case, the only copper I could find locally was "half-hard",
> which made it more difficult to bend, and more likely to stress
> the posts. So, I annealed it, by heating it with a propane torch
> (doesn't have to get very hot) and now it bends VERY easily (and
> is less likely to crack when bending). Annealing may lower the
> resistivity a bit, also.
Yes, it does. However, if you bend copper back and forth and back and
forth a lot, it work-hardens itself again.
> I'm using 1 inch wide by 0.060 inch thick ( as recommended in
> Mike's book). That is more than sufficient for me, since I am
> using 8VGC's ( relatively low current capability)
Yes, that's just fine. For skeptics, this is equivalent to just #1 wire;
far smaller than the 2/0 or 4/0 round cable most people use. Yet it
works
just fine in an EV with peak currents of 600 amps, and average currents
of 100 amps or so. A 6" piece has a resistance of 0.000124 ohms, and so
has a 0.0124 volt drop at 100 amps, and dissipates 1.24 watts --
insignificant!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Seppo Lindborg wrote:
> The thin signalling wiring comes in all colours of the rainbow and
> also multi-coloured; just take a look inside an ethernet plug. It
> should be perfectly possible to make on orange cable with a red or
> blue stripe. You would get both the safety factor and the polarity
> indication.
I agree; OEMs can do anything. They could color the wire plaid or
polka-dotted if they wanted to. All it takes is money and an order for a
million feet of wire.
But, OEMs are not building EVs! And they are not going to build them any
time soon, if they can help it! So there is no source of the special
orange "EV rated" cables that the standards require.
I can't buy "EV orange" battery cables at any of my suppliers. Nor can I
buy orange heat-shrink tubing or orange UL-listed electrical tape, or
orange wire loom to color the cables I can get. I think my only option
is to special-order Super Vu-Tron Orange welding cable, and make all my
own connectors.
Now, I *can* buy cheap junk audio speaker wire, which isn't rated for
the voltage and burns like firewood. Or cheap orange extension cords
from Home Depot. Or crappy plastic tape intended for indoor hobby use
that falls off after a year in an automotive environment. Using these
would make the EV *less* safe!
My concern is that the auto companies created the "orange" standard to
make it MORE difficult and expensive to build hobby EVs; to erect
barriers that don't bother them but slow anyone else down. We cannot let
them set the standards for EVs! They would create impossible-to-meet
standards, to *prevent* anyone from doing it.
And, they promote these phony standards with scare tactics and
fear-mongering. Inventing and exaggerating the danger, so as to sell
phony cures or to block progress entirely.
As a practical matter, firefighters already face high voltage
electricity in every building. They already take precautions. They are
already trained to treat wiring as "live" and dangerous. A careless
firefighter will soon be a DEAD firefighter!
Merely making high voltage wiring orange accomplishes nothing. Not one
person in a thousand would attach any significance to it. People already
see orange cables all the time, and think nothing of it. They'll think
it's an extension cord for a block heater, or speaker wires.
It makes perfect sense to identify wiring, and protect not only
firefighters, but also service people, the vehicle's owners, and
everyone else that may come in contact with it from hazards. This
protection needs to include marking it, locating it so inadvertent
touching is unlikely, including safety cutoff devices so it is "dead"
after an accident or during servicing, etc. I'm all in favor of these
steps. Indeed, they are what we routinely do for *any* high voltage
installation.
So let's do things that actually help safety; don't waste time and money
on "feel good" measures.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Matt Holthausen wrote:
> I'm very curious about this. I have a lot to learn regarding
> generators/alternators, and I plan to make one integral to my
> vehicle. Can anyone point me in the right direction to learn
> about generators with shunt fields? Where can one find an ADC
> wound like this?
There are *lots* of books on this. Check your local library.
A series motor is the cheapest kind of DC motor. That's why they are so
widely used in EVs, vacuum cleaners, electric drills, etc. But they are
the hardest to control. Using them as a generator is especially
difficult, because you can't control the field and it is always changing
strength (it depends on the current the motor is drawing at the moment).
PM motors are more expensive; good magnets cost more than coils. But,
they are a little more efficient, and with the field strength fixed by
the magnets, they work better as generators. But, you still don't have
an easy way to control them as generators.
A shunt motor has a field winding that is independently controllable.
The amount of field current adjusts the motor's speed, or its output as
a generator. Thus almost all DC generators are shunt motors. They are
more expensive, but much more controllable. When used as a motor, they
are usually called SEPEX (SEParately EXcited) motors, since the field is
powered separately from the armature.
"Advanced DC" is the name of a low-end motor manufacturer. They mostly
make series motors, but have started making shunt motors for the golf
car market. The higher price for the motor is offset by allowing a
simpler (and cheaper) speed controller. But ADC doesn't make any shunt
motors big enough for full-size on-the-road EVs.
GE, Westinghouse, Baldor, Kostov, and others *do* make large shunt/sepex
motors. But, they won't bother with someone who only wants one motor. So
the only way you're going to get one is through some indirect channel --
surplus, used, or from someone who bought a bunch of motors and is
reselling them individually.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Do you have voltage regulators on each battery? Have you checked finish
voltage of each battery in your pack? I think you will find your pack
highly out of balance and when your friend did the hill climb all the
weaknesses came out. You babied the pack. That is why you didn't notice.
Your friend drove it as needed. Big difference. If you baby a pack it will
last longer and problems won't appear. Stress the pack with a hill climb.
All H E double hockey sticks breaks lose. Check all voltages on all
batteries and document them. Check during charge & after discharge. This
is how you find weak batteries. Using regulators is how you prevent making
a weak battery worse. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:53 PM
Subject: Diahartsu Charade Meltdown
This may be a repeat. First hadn't gone thru.
I lent my EV to another member (AM) for promotional purposes & for
showing to other aspiring EV builders. It came back in worse condition
than it went.
The EV has batteries in the front, under the back seat & in the spare
wheel well. There are three parallel strings of Panasonic LC-LA1233P
(12V 33Ahr) 144V nominal, so 36 batteries with Zivan NG3 on board
controller & 9 inch motor.
The NG3 starts off at 15A current limit, followed by 176V constant and
3A for one hour. It is possible to reach 190V during the final stage
according to AM
What has happened is that in the approx centre of mass of the back seat
batteries there is evidence of heat & pressure as one bat has started
ballooning and others near it have started to melt. The area is not
sealed but has some ports for ventilation. There is supposed to be a fan
but it isn't working at present. Other batteries are basically OK. The
party balloon has now got a shorted cell.
AM did a 90k return trip involving suburban & freeway with approx 1.5
hr recharge at destination but on the way back he climbed one of the
steepest hills in Melbourne (Wheelers Hill) at about 35mph causing the
DCPS-1200 to squeal. He needed to drop down to a lower gear to finish.
This hill would take about 2 mins to climb.
MF claims the damage was in existence before I lent him the car. I have
not done any long trips myself only about 60ks max at modest
performance.
So what has caused this Chernobyl? Is pushing the batteries too far the
problem? Is it the charger?
Can the NG3 be modded to make it more suited to AGM batts?
Should the batts be reconfigured to 12 series groups of 3 paralleled
batts?
Should I fit bypass diodes & voltage limiting circuit to each 12V group?
Should I torture AM and get the truth out of him?
Your comments will be gratefully apprec'td.
David Sharpe
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