EV Digest 4280
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Wire Gauge questions -wire colors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Dave Cloud vs 'White Zombie'
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Hybrid slam article on Autobytel
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Hydraulic Hybrids
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Genset
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Watt to amp to volt conversions & why they aren't the same.
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Wire Gauge Questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Independent rear suspension
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Optimum Mini-Pickup for Conversion?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: bus bars
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Watt to amp to volt conversions & why they aren't the same.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Optimum Mini-Pickup for Conversion?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Watt to amp to volt conversions & why they aren't the same.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Hybrid slam article on Autobytel
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Post ww II elec 'car'
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Watt to amp to volt conversions & why they aren't the same.
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Fwd: Re: bus bars versus wire - was RE: Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Optimum Mini-Pickup for Conversion?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Optimum Mini-Pickup for Conversion?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Hybrid slam article on Autobytel
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Independent rear suspension
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Vas: Re: Wire Gauge questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Watt to amp to volt conversions & why they aren't the same.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: article: Jay Leno to own America's First Lithium iCeL (TM)Powered
"R-Car"Stuff
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Hybrid slam article on Autobytel
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Vas: Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: bus bars versus wire - was RE: Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: bus bars versus wire - was RE: Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) Re: Vas: Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
33) Re: Watt to amp to volt conversions & why they aren't the same.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
34) Re: Independent rear suspension
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
35) Re: Wire Gauge Questions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
> From a safety standpoint, high voltage wires should be
> one color so the fireman/safety people know they
> should not mess with those wires. (My father-in-law
> is a fire chief, and I know they don't care about
> positive-negative, just what should be cut with
> protection in emergency situations). More qualified
> technicians in controlled environments can determine
> which is + and - with a simple marking on the cable
> end. (using something as simple as black and red
> heatshrink on the cables).
So, we should stop color coding all wiring, and use color only to denote
safety in the unlikely event of a fire? That would be a very bad idea!
It would cause massive numbers of wiring errors, equipment damage, and
injuries from all sorts of other mistakes!
Don't you think it is a bad idea to let one aspect of a problem totally
dominate the design? Any practical design is a compromise between many
competing factors. It is only a "good" design if it meets *all* of them
acceptably.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually that's kind of the point. According to NEDRA's website:
"The National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA) exists to increase
public awareness of electric vehicle (EV) performance and to encourage
through competition, advances in electric vehicle technology. "
In other words it's designed to encourage people to think "outside the
box", and dispell the myth that EVs are slow, etc. Well that and give
some folks an excuse to have fun tearing up the track in battery powered
vehicles.
You set up limits on how fast people can go, and they come up with ways to
get around the limits. Dave has created a vehicle that gets around the
limitations of low(er) voltage, and in doing so has validated the goals of
NEDRA.
Kudos to Dave Cloud.
> But I could se an argument where multiple motors/multiple controllers
> should be another class.
> 1 motor at x voltage = y torque
> 2 motors at x voltage = 2y torque or 1 motor at 2x voltage = 2y torque
> So someone might claim multiple motors are just a way around voltage
> classes :-)
>
>
>
> "the proof is in the timeslips" Roger
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I was very suprised by this article and wonder if hybrid batteries are
> going
> to create dumping problems and if the vehicles will depreciate extra fast
> in
> the resale market?
>
I wish they'd depreciate fast. I want to buy a used Prius.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
For a lightweight, front-wheel-drive car, do you think there would be
enough power if you put the hydraulic motors on the rear wheels only and
left the ICE connected to the front? That way you could switch between ICE
and EV mode. I know you'd be dragging around the ICE weight when in EV
mode, so you'd lose some efficiency. I think your idea for keeping the ICE
was to remove the transmission and replace it with a hydraulic pump,
hydraulic motors on all four wheels?
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 11:10 AM
To: EVlist - Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: Hydraulic Hybrids
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I looked into the specs on the equipment to do this and was very
> dissapointed with the efficiencies. What I looked at, was as
> efficient at only 1 output as the lower end of a DC motor. :-(
Just like electric motors, all the mass-marketed stuff is optimized for
"cheap" rather than "efficient". But there are exceptions if you know
where to look.
I've been talking to Ernie Parker at Hennepin Technical College. He and
his students have built a large number of hydraulic vehicles over the
years. He recommended the Char-Lynn (Eaton) series 2000 motors. Look at
these specs:
size 8" long x 5" x 4.25"
weight 22 lbs
speed 742 rpm continuous, 924 rpm max
(53 mph continuous, 66 mph max. with a 24" dia tire)
torque 219 ft-lbs continuous, 330 ft-lbs max
shaft 1.25" dia. x 2", roller bearings, 4500 lbs side load capacity
(suitable for wheel motor)
efficiency 90-95%
price $367 each in single-piece quantities
Hydraulic motors are somewhat like PM motors in that their losses are
proportional to rpm. so they have to be sized carefully, or your
light-load losses will be high and your efficiency low at very light
loads.
> The acumulators are a lot of steel, great for a fed-ex truck but
> perhaps we will need a aluminum accumulator and a low pressure
> (<1000psi) system.
The accumulator is your "battery", so its size depends on how much power
you want and for how long. He has a motorcycle with an accumulator
that's the size of a 2-liter pop bottle.
> I missed the beggining of this thread, why is this being considered in
> place of an electric system?
I was thinking of hydraulics *in addition* to an electric drive system.
The hydraulics eliminate the transmission, differential, drive shafts,
and all associated drive line parts. You mount hydraulic motors in each
wheel, put a hydraulic pump on the traction motor, and use an
accumulator to capture energy for regenerative braking and return it for
faster accelleration. Now you can use a simple series traction motor and
crude controller, and still have smooth speed control and powerful
regen.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems to me that it shouldn't be that hard to rewind a series motor, like
an ADC, into a sepex motor. The field windings would be with smaller
wire, so much easier to wind that the thick bars, or whatever, that they
come with.
Yes, no, maybe so?
> "Advanced DC" is the name of a low-end motor manufacturer. They mostly
> make series motors, but have started making shunt motors for the golf
> car market. The higher price for the motor is offset by allowing a
> simpler (and cheaper) speed controller. But ADC doesn't make any shunt
> motors big enough for full-size on-the-road EVs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
> Watts = Volts x Amps is always true.
> The problem is how you measure them.
How about in this example: 12 volt DC system. How many amps does a 35
watt headlight pull?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> Perhaps orange was chosen for high voltage AC in which all lines are hot
> and polarity is moot, and it just stuck for the battery lines too.
No; our Prius has both its HV battery leads orange; as well as all its
AC HV leads. You can't tell them apart. They depended on a special
unobtainium connectors at each end to prevent them being connected
backwards. This is fine for big OEMs, but bad for hobby EVs.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is the article I found that makes it look real easy...
http://www.classictrucksweb.com/tech/0303CT_IndThinkII/
I will check out the VW Transaxles, but my concern is strength. I will have at
least a 156 v pack, and if I use T-105's that is about 1600 lbs, which will put
me very close to the trucks rated GVWR of 4045. I will be putting a 9" motor in
and I don't want to over stress the axles. Will a VW Transaxle be strong
enough? even the bus unit?
Also - on the door label it states front 1940 lbs, rear 2470 lbs, total 4045
lbs - but if you add the front and rear it equals 4410 lbs. How is that
possible?
Rush
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Just a newbie to ev, planning first conversion early next year. With so
> much being made of the weight/range/capacity of bus bar vs. 4/0 wire etc.
> for 10ths of a % on performance, has anyone done a comparative analysis of
> mini-pickups (e.g. gutted weight vs. carrying capacity) for optimized
> range? I know that rodders used to acid etch nonstructural panels to
> reduce weight; anyone with experience here?
>
Well...
I didn't build my truck. It was originally built by a high school for EV
racing. It mostly looks like a '87 Toyota pickup. However, other than
the external shell, there is very little pickup left.
Modifications to lighten vehicle:
Replaced the frame with a custom built Nickle Chromium tubular frame.
Removed a 3" strip down the center of the bed and replaced it with aluminum.
Removed the front wall of the bed and the internal side walls.
Remove internal portions of the fender wells (you could look clear through
the front from one side to the other).
Removed the floor inside the cab, under the seats, and replaced it with
fiberglass(?).
Replaced seats with lighter seats.
Replaced transmission with lighter tranny from a Toyota Starlet.
Replaced rear axle with Toyota Supra axle (4 wheel disk brakes!)
Replaced steering rack with one from a Tercel.
Gutted just about everything under the dash, I've since installed an
electric heater and ducting.
Curb weight of the truck, including 1/2 ton of batteries, is 3160 lbs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
t of curiosity, what is the best way to connect bus bars to EV batteries?
I'm thinking that the easiest way would be to use automotive terminals,
drill a hole in the ends of the bus bar, and slip the bus bar over the
bolt in a terminal clamp that tightens it down. However, that would
probably loosen up over time.
So...?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The obvious answer would be 420 but I'm sure there will be additional
discussion on that...
-
Joe Smalley wrote:
> Watts = Volts x Amps is always true.
> The problem is how you measure them.
How about in this example: 12 volt DC system. How many amps does a 35
watt headlight pull?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Larry Skidmore wrote:
> I know that rodders used to acid etch nonstructural panels to reduce weight;
> anyone with experience here?
I don't have experience with it, but I am interested in it. I've
always just heard passing references to the subject and never been
able to find any details on it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Speaking of which, are there any examples of converted Priuses, or Insites?
That would be an interesting thing to see.
Thank!
On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 10:12:34AM -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > I was very suprised by this article and wonder if hybrid batteries are
> > going
> > to create dumping problems and if the vehicles will depreciate extra fast
> > in
> > the resale market?
> >
>
> I wish they'd depreciate fast. I want to buy a used Prius.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I don't know how many of you have checked out the link on my web site to my
conversion but the first picture on it is of an Airphibian. It was a
car/airplane that my father was part inventor, test pilot, engineer, mechanic
and chief bottlewasher. If you google it you'll see many more pictures.
Anyway the point is that one of the 3 prototypes that were build and FAA
licenced as experimental one was an electric drive. The main engine, air
cooled, was the power source on land, it was hooked to a dynamo that drove 2
elec motors, one for each rear wheel. The motors were mounted in the body under
the seats and used a drive shaft with U joints to get power to the wheels.
Just a way point in the voyage of EV's
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Isn't adding more motors the same as more voltage in one reguard.
> for example the higer voltage is what allows a given motor to pull
> more amps.
I don't think so. Raising the voltage allows the motor to draw more
current at higher RPM, which means you've got a wider powerband.
Adding multiple motors could be like raising the system voltage; for
instance if you replace a single motor with a pair of motors rated for
1/2 that of the original. In this case, when you start with the motors
in series, you get about the same performance as the original, but when
you switch to parallel it is as if you had doubled the battery voltage
since you now have full pack voltage applied to motors rated for 1/2
that much.
But, usually going to multiple motors means running a pair of ADC 8"
instead of a single one, etc., so you don't tend to get that advantage.
> All the talk about melting down the motor is also kinda moot
> because it is being devided between the motors, the only place
> I can see this mattering is the short hop from the battery to
> the controllers and they can be paralleled too.
No, it is not at all moot. If you have the ability to force more
current into the motors for a longer time, then both your batteries and
motors are under greater stress. Batteries can only supply X amps for Y
time; if you raise the voltage or add motors such that you can hold X
(or X++) amps for nearer to Y (or Y++) seconds then you melt batteries.
Likewise, a motor can only take X amps for a certain amount of time, and
if your system is already able to hold them near their maximum current
for near the maximum time, then if you raise the system voltage to allow
either more current or the same current for a longer time, you are in
danger of melting the motor(s). You might get around this by adding
motors at the same time as increasing the system voltage.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Odd, I came up with just under 3 amps (2.92) What did I do wrong?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:32 AM
Subject: RE: Watt to amp to volt conversions & why they aren't the same.
The obvious answer would be 420 but I'm sure there will be additional
discussion on that...
-
Joe Smalley wrote:
Watts = Volts x Amps is always true.
The problem is how you measure them.
How about in this example: 12 volt DC system. How many amps does a 35
watt headlight pull?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Never use a flat straight piece of bussbar (or
> wire) to connect two batteries.
I'm trying to connect NiCad cells together into packs. I have them (20) secured
togther pretty
solid, but I imagine there will be some movement due to charging/gassing
pressure and temp,
however slight. The interconnects are held down to the contact pads with a
10-32 screw. The center
to center dimension is as short as 1.375 inches.
Can I include enough of a bend for movement in this short a distance? Maybe an
inchworm
shape?Doesn't bending the copper increase the resistance at the bend? Would a
belville washer
allow some slip in the connection and let the busbar "slide" on the contact pad?
> > I'm using 1 inch wide by 0.060 inch thick ( as recommended in Mike's book).
I bought some .125 X .5 copper bar to use, a WAG that it should handle the
current. I'm planning
on a 300 - 400 volt pack attached to a Z1K driving an ADC" in a 2700lbs car. No
quarter mile runs.
Can I go to thinner stock for flexibility and still handle the current? I plan
on 2/0 from the
pack to the controller, but how do I size the interconnects? NiCads are known
for high amp output,
should I oversize so they could handle a full scale dump, or at least higher
than the mid-pack
fuse rating? Or make them the same rating as the controller feed?
Thanks,
Dave (NuBee) Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Modifications to lighten vehicle:
> Removed a 3" strip down the center of the bed and replaced it with aluminum.
Do you mean 3 feet instead of 3 inches?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>> Modifications to lighten vehicle:
>> Removed a 3" strip down the center of the bed and replaced it with
>> aluminum.
>
> Do you mean 3 feet instead of 3 inches?
>
>
Dooh! Darn shift key.
Yeah, they basically removed everything between the rear wheel wells.
I meant to post a link to the EV Album:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/334.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
> Speaking of which, are there any examples of converted Insights?
> That would be an interesting thing to see.
Here's a "converted" Insight...
http://img91.echo.cx/img91/6605/insight11yb.jpg
;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another IRS worth considering is the T-Burd from around 1992. It looks to be
a fairly sturdy model. I have a junker in my backyard right now, if anyone
wants it...
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 4:09 AM
Subject: Re: Independent rear suspension
ooo, I like! I have been wanting to put independent rear suspension in my
mitsubish also, I am anxios to see what you come up with.
One thought was useing a VW transaxle, there are lots of aftermarket
parts to beef them up including new sideplates. These were the origons of
the indy car trannies. I believe the VW bus had larger shafts and is a
stronger unit, Otmar can chime in here. At least it is already flipped for
you.
The other thought was to use the corvette or Heidt replica ones in the hot
rod magazinzes like in the cobra kits
Jaguar XJ-6 is used in ERA kits
Look under a datsun 510,300Z. 300z has a subframe that might help mounting
googleing...
http://www.heidts.com/heiirs.htm
http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/techarticles/86279/
PS. inboard brakes look cool and reduce unsprung weight, but are difficult
to cool. Originally done for racing and phased out because of cooling and
torque problems, brakes were just more effective at the wheel and new
materials allowed other methods of lightening things up. Unsprung weight
is not as much a problem with an EV and air flow to the brakes is(a big
battery box in front) so I recomend staying away from inboard brakes!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I can't buy "EV orange" battery cables at any of my suppliers.
Well perhaps you can't buy orange "battery" cables, but most folks doing
conversions use "welding" cable and any decent welding suplier will carry,
or can order, orange welding cable. You can also pick it up at most solar
electric distributors.
Heck, I live in a relatively small town and the welding store there
carries it.
These folks have a pretty good price on orange cable (as well as red,
black, blue, green, & yellow):
http://store.solar-electric.com/wc--4.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good lord, what are they teaching in school these days?
This isn't even algebra, just basic math.
The technically correct answere is 2.92 amps assuming the system is
actually 12V and the headlight is actually 35 watts.
Real automotive systems are anywhere from 13 to 16V. Assuming a nominal
13.8V it would then be 2.54 amps.
Call it something between 2.5 and 3 amps.
> The obvious answer would be 420 but I'm sure there will be additional
> discussion on that...
>
> -
> Joe Smalley wrote:
>> Watts = Volts x Amps is always true.
>> The problem is how you measure them.
>
>
> How about in this example: 12 volt DC system. How many amps does a 35
> watt headlight pull?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why don't we contact Mr. Leno and give him a heads up.
I already tried to find an email address for him.
Maybe we can contact him through his agent.
I know that Jay has an old EV in his stable. Perhaps someone could build
him a nice kit EV that really works as part of the show.
If Jay really wants a modern EV, there are already a number of good
choices -- for someone of his means -- of high-quality, low-volume serial
production EVs from reputable manufacturers. Venturi is now going into
production with their $660,000 Fetish sports car. I believe they are
planning to do a limited production run of about 25 cars a year, and the car
will apparently also be available in the US, in addition to Europe, which
means that they must have complied with US FMVSS. AC Propulsion is offering
their last T-Zero with a 300-mile range and 3.8-second 0-to-60 time, powered
by a li-ion pack of 6,800 18650 laptop cells, for $220,000, but so far they
haven't had any takers. They had sold two previous T-Zeros, but those were
100-mile range versions with lead-acid packs. Or Jay could follow George
Clooney's lead and purchase a $85,000 Tango, which is now going into
production by Commuter Cars. I forget the exact number, but I think it also
has an excellent 0-to-60 time, somewhere around 4 seconds. Or he could
follow the lead of Tom Hanks and many others with the purchase of a 2-3 year
old Toyota RAV4-EV for around $35-45,000. I myself just bought one of those
a few days ago from an owner in northern California. There is another one
in southern California that is also for sale right now, and they seem to
come up for sale on a regular basis.
I'm sure there are probably others as well that I have left out. The point
is that there are a number of good choices from reputable manufacturers that
Jay doesn't have to deal with hucksters and con men nor necessarily to hire
anyone to build him a kitcar, unless there is some particular kit that he
really digs for some reason. (If Jay likes old cars, a few weeks ago I
drove a fabulous electric 1929 Mercedes Gazelle replica kitcar that Steve
Clunn built.)
Anyway, as someone else on the list already pointed out, it might very well
be the case that Jay is not dealing with these people at all, but rather
they have just usurped and misappropriated his name without him even knowing
about it in order to promote their product. I think that is likely the
case, as I would think that Jay would know about most of these options
mentioned above, given his extensive knowledge and command of the high-end
custom auto market.
Charles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
> Hello to All,
>
> I had written:
> electric car to set the record straight.
>
> Dave, consider yourself invited to the 'Wayland Invitational', time and
date to be
> announced soon.
>
> It's going to be a fun electric drag racing season!
>
> See Ya........John Wayland
>
John we definatley need to nail that Date down!!! I will be there, for sure.
This is also a test to see if I am back in the EV list world....
Madman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hybrid slam article on Autobytel
Nick Austin wrote:
> Speaking of which, are there any examples of converted Insights? That
> would be an interesting thing to see.
Here's a "converted" Insight...
http://img91.echo.cx/img91/6605/insight11yb.jpg
;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I can't buy "EV orange" battery cables at any of my suppliers.
Well perhaps you can't buy orange "battery" cables, but most folks doing
conversions use "welding" cable and any decent welding suplier will carry,
or can order, orange welding cable. You can also pick it up at most solar
electric distributors.
Heck, I live in a relatively small town and the welding store there
carries it.
These folks have a pretty good price on orange cable (as well as red,
black, blue, green, & yellow):
http://store.solar-electric.com/wc--4.html
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
...can be found at http://www.ghiamonster.com/tasks.html .
The builders have done a nice job in installing rails for the battery
boxes to mount to near the rear of the vehicle. Towards the bottom of
the page are pictures of mockups of the adapter plates the motors and
bellhousing are to mount to.
Steve
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I was thinking about the connectors for the Saft BB-600's (that I never got....
;-)), we were at one point talking about making them out of a flat stamping. If
you go to Philippe's page
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/Aprilia%20Eproject%20001.jpg
you see them as solid flat connectors, no bends, no movement possible. And
these are in aircraft which will be moving, vibrating etc.
Is it that the saft connectors are loose enough in the plastic case, forgiving
enough, so that movement does not matter? Or are the individual batteries loose
enough in their containment pack so that they can move and the posts are not
affected?
Or is our worry about vibration not significant enough even with our plastic
case lead acid batteries to be concerned with?
Rush
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I would guess that the wire size in a motor is not there for best
efficiency, but for what will make that number of turns in that frame.
Which may or may not have anything to do with best efficiency when run
at several times nominal voltage and current. Remember, these motors
aren't optimal, they are tweaks on existing production motors.
With what people pay for range and performance, I can't see how using
battery power to make hot wires is helping. The reduction in mass for a
conversion (not 800lb solar car) is so small that the penalty should
swamp any benefit.
So if you are buildig a drag car and it really is light (haven't seen
one yet) or a solar car, then maybe you should figure it out. But for
the majority of the conversion people on the list, with relatively low
voltage and high current, then larger wire will be better. I am sure
there is something else they can remove to optimize before removing
copper in the interconnections.
Seth
On Apr 14, 2005, at 1:16 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
Seth Allen wrote:
Vehicle mass has a relationship to range. But not the one you state,
Lee, which I think you use as an example, but expect us to know it is
an exaggeration.
Correct; that's why I said, "This is an admittedly extreme example; but
it shows the principle at work."
Range is only directly related to weight when you are redesigning the
entire car accordingly -- scaling everything together.
Just trying to be clear, so that everyone doesn't try to get lighter
wires. You might find that in fact the heavier wires make more sense
with the way the relationship works.
That's true, too. This could happen for a drag racer that draws
thousands of amps as its "normal" running current (for all of 15
seconds).
The most efficient cars I know of have very low amps/square area
on the interconnects and motor leads. (This means big wires, folks)
Yes, it's the most efficient. But that may not provide the greatest
range.
For things like solar cars, you really *can* get more range by
carefully
optimizing wire sizes. That may well lead to wires that look
undersized.
If you are truly trying to optimize something, you will often find that
your design takes some strange unexpected turns!
A good common example is to look at the wire sizes in high efficiency
motors. Here we are running 4/0 to a series DC motor; ever looked at
the
field and armature wire sizes inside? They aren't even 1/4th the cross
sectional area! The wire sizes are so small that they will burn up if
you don't have a pretty substantial airflow through it for cooling.
Why don't they use a larger wire size to improve efficiency? Because
the
wire is *already* sized for best efficiency! There is a fixed amount of
room for the windings. If they increased the wire size, they'd have to
reduce the number of turns. And this would reduce the magnetic field
strength, and reduce the voltage of the motor. In a well designed
motor,
the size of everything has been carefully considered, and optimized.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> I can't buy "EV orange" battery cables at any of my suppliers.
Yes you can. Just change "your" suppliers :-)
I can get you bright orange cable specifically made for HV circuitry
in the vehicle from the same supplier BRUSA gets it from:
http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_verschiedenes128.htm
Equivalent to AWG1/0, 2/0, 4/0, whatever common you may need.
This is only one of suppliers.
It is *available* to anyone. Whether it is affordable, as with
everything, depends on whom do you talk to and how bad do you want it.
So if you just unwilling to pay as much as supplier making exactly what
you're looking for charges you, it is not the same as you "can't".
Should I stock this cable (at the risk of being labeled
euro snob again :-) for the benefits of those who want make their EVs
look like OEM?
I think universal orange serves like recognition of function
("carries high voltage"), nothing more, and it is benefit
users just like recognition of any green or green with yellow
stripes wire in typical electrical installation as ground wire.
I tis convenient to know the purpose without any manuals.
Did you notice any consumer gadget (camcorder, organizer, etc)
produced recently has one and only one green button/switch.
Guess what. You (and whole civilized world) recognize without
manuals this is power on switch. Convenient, isn't it.
Same with orange in any car. Color per se does not benefit OEMs.
And they certainly don't make HV orange to make your life
as a hobbyist more difficult, c'mon.
Recognition of hazard benefits YOU. I think it is a good idea,
just like green button on consumer gadgets.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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It is not that easy, Peter, since the bulb is not linear resistor
and rsistance depends on how hot it is.
The question asked lacks detail: how many amps at what moment?
The 35W bulb may consume 100W in first instant when inrush cirrent
is high, and gradually settle to 35W and 35/12=~2.92A as long
as the voltage and outside temp stay the same.
So Joe is fundamentally right - if you know voltage and current
at every instant, you know the power exactly, and if integrate
power samples with infinitely short periods of times between
sampling, you'll know the power "history" or can derrive
average power for perioduc signals of any form.
Problem is, there are no simple means to measure current
and voltage instanteneously and accurately integrate
fast enough.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Good lord, what are they teaching in school these days?
This isn't even algebra, just basic math.
The technically correct answere is 2.92 amps assuming the system is
actually 12V and the headlight is actually 35 watts.
Real automotive systems are anywhere from 13 to 16V. Assuming a nominal
13.8V it would then be 2.54 amps.
Call it something between 2.5 and 3 amps.
The obvious answer would be 420 but I'm sure there will be additional
discussion on that...
-
Joe Smalley wrote:
Watts = Volts x Amps is always true.
The problem is how you measure them.
How about in this example: 12 volt DC system. How many amps does a 35
watt headlight pull?
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave"
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: Independent rear suspension
> Another IRS worth considering is the T-Burd from around 1992. It looks to be
> a fairly sturdy model. I have a junker in my backyard right now, if anyone
> wants it...
>
> David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Dave,
I might be interested, where are you located? Close to Tucson AZ I hope...
Rush
Tucson AZ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For some reasin I can't see my first reply getting through,
so I'm re-sending. If duplicate email comes along later, please ignore.
Lee Hart wrote:
> I can't buy "EV orange" battery cables at any of my suppliers.
Yes you can. Just change "your" suppliers :-)
I can get you bright orange cable specifically made for HV circuitry
in the vehicle from the same supplier BRUSA gets it from:
http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_verschiedenes128.htm
Equivalent to AWG1/0, 2/0, 4/0, whatever common you may need.
This is only one of suppliers.
It is *available* to anyone. Whether it is affordable, as with
everything, depends on whom do you talk to and how bad do you want it.
So if you just unwilling to pay as much as supplier making exactly what
you're looking for charges you, it is not the same as you "can't".
Should I stock this cable (at the risk of being labeled
euro snob again :-) for the benefits of those who want make their EVs
look like OEM?
I think universal orange serves like recognition of function
("carries high voltage"), nothing more, and it is benefit
users just like recognition of any green or green with yellow
stripes wire in typical electrical installation as ground wire.
I tis convenient to know the purpose without any manuals.
Did you notice any consumer gadget (camcorder, organizer, etc)
produced recently has one and only one green button/switch.
Guess what. You (and whole civilized world) recognize without
manuals this is power on switch. Convenient, isn't it.
Same with orange in any car. Color per se does not benefit OEMs.
And they certainly don't make HV orange to make your life
as a hobbyist more difficult, c'mon.
Recognition of hazard benefits YOU. I think it is a good idea,
just like green button on consumer gadgets.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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