EV Digest 4286
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 98 Ranger EV
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) starting out questions.
by "Lord Khaos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: starting out questions.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Another Newbie joins the ranks.
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Diahartsu Charade Meltdown
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Generator trailer
by "Jeff and Diane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Generator trailer
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Another Newbie joins the ranks.
by "Lord Khaos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Genset
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Generator trailer
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) slightly used PB-6 pot box for sale
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Generator trailer
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Another Newbie joins the ranks.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) RE: Diahartsu Charade Meltdown-Lee Hart to comment please
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Adapter hub runout - how bad is bad??
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Voltage Visas? was Re: Generator trailer
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) genset trailer evolved into transmission gearing??
by Larry Skidmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Sealed Lead acid source
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Adapter hub runout - how bad is bad??
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Genset
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Generator trailer
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> While one argument certainly could include
> "Emergency personnel are
> trained to recognize orange wiring," there are
> counter-arguments. For
> instance, I talked to my local firefighters, at two
> different stations;
> neither group had any idea how to recognize
> high-voltage wiring. They
> wouldn't even admit to knowing how to recognize
> "dangerous" wiring.
I guess things are different out here on the left
coast. There is a training facility across the street
from my shop (next to the tow yard where they get the
wrecks to practice on) where they teach fire training
exercises, rescue, and training on the use of the jaws
of life. These are the people I asked on the issue of
wire color. But maybe they are more attuned to EV's
and Hybrids because there were and are so many of them
here. You can't swat a fly around here without seeing
a Prius or some other hybrid. and there are still
quite a few of the rav-4 ev's running around. I had
made the assumtion that this training was universal in
U.S. fire departments, and it might be, once an area
has enough Hybrids/EV's to warrant it.
Gadget
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 4:04 PM -0400 4-16-05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am falling in love with this EV.
Dead on arrival from the auction its battery pack only had 400+ miles on it.
Thanks to Rich grayman Rudman we are getting 35 miles per charge.
He loaned me an avcon. I have over 400 miles on it myself
with the ac on.
Dennis Berube
Could it be that Dennis will get hooked on street EV's in addition to
racing?
I think he's got that EV Grin and now there is no going back!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi there,
Been poking around your archives some to get started with my comversion.
('66 Dodge A-100)
I am leaning towards just buying a delux kit for the conversion,(with the
big motor option) as it will be my first, and I have found just having all
the parts right there for me aids in my usual habit of procrastinating
everything.
Has anyone had any experience with http://www.electroauto.com/index.html ?
Their desire to do the adapter plate is a nice perk, as while I have access
to a full machine shop, close tolerences are not a strong point of mine.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An ElectroAuto VoltsRabbit was my first conversion.
I have nothing but good experiences with the vehicle,
tthough I grew to detest the small size of a Rabbit as
I have a family.
Mike Brown, founder, wrote "Convert It," which is
pretty much the "bible" of electric vehicle
converting.
You'd do well to start there, and I think you'll be
hard pressed to find better vendors than KTA Services
and ElectroAutomotive to sell you what you need.
BTW, ElectroAuto subscribes to this listServ, and
will be giving their 0.02 on a variety of issues.
--- Lord Khaos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> Been poking around your archives some to get started
> with my comversion.
> ('66 Dodge A-100)
>
> I am leaning towards just buying a delux kit for the
> conversion,(with the
> big motor option) as it will be my first, and I have
> found just having all
> the parts right there for me aids in my usual habit
> of procrastinating
> everything.
>
> Has anyone had any experience with
> http://www.electroauto.com/index.html ?
>
> Their desire to do the adapter plate is a nice perk,
> as while I have access
> to a full machine shop, close tolerences are not a
> strong point of mine.
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome, Kevin.
Lord Khaos wrote:
>My target Vehicle is a '66 Dodge A-100, With a curb
>weight of approx. 3200
>pounds with a V-8 motor. (3 spd. man trans) I am hoping
>to create a cruising
>range of 50 miles, to allow me to commute to work, and
>look forward to learning
>from everyone on this list.
First, a few questions.
1) How fast do you want it to go? EVs can be extremely fast.
2) How much money are you willing to spend?
3) You want a maintenance free vehicle, or do you not care
about having to clean and water a set of batteries about
once a month?
After looking at your website, it appears you know exactly
what you're doing when working on cars. It also looks like
you have the cash and/or tools to make a really bitchin EV.
My recommendation would be to cut the hell out of this van.
You want 50 miles highway cruising range? You're going to
need to somehow fit about 2,000 pounds of lead acid
batteries into that thing if you use sealed lead acid
batteries for horsepower.
You do want power, right?
I like to imagine that van of yours with two 336V strings of
Optima D750 yellowtops or Exide Orbitals(Which is 2,385
pounds for that many Optimas and 2,173 pounds for that many
Orbitals), two Netgain WarP 9'' electric motors, two Zilla
2k controllers, and a Manzanita Micro PFC50 charger. That
would have a lot of power on tap...
You'll definately want a full underbelly for the van. It
probably has the aerodynamics of a brick, and that is going
to eat into your highway speed cruising range a huge amount.
Minimize drag in every way you can, going so far as whether
you are willing to alter the look of your vehicle(For
example, bellypan or full underbelly and grill covered from
the inside if you want looks unaltered, or add to that
covered wheel wells, shaved door handles, and modified
vehicle body shape with total change of front end if you
don't care about looks being altered.). Round down your
brake pistons to keep brakes from dragging, make sure you're
using the right kind of transmission oil for
efficiency(Redline MTL is highly recommended around on this
list). Don't have a manual transmission? You may want to
install one to slightly increase efficiency. Whatever
flywheel you'd use for that, you'd want to machine it down
and remove excess, since EVs have their peak torque at 0 RPM
all the way until your motor either reaches the max voltage
your controller will allow it, OR your motor voltage is
about equal to the voltage your battery pack is sagging to
at that current used to get that torque(meaning, either your
batteries or your controller will be the most significant
limiting factor in your performance with a given motoer
setup.). Less flywheel inertia = more acceleration and less
energy consumption during acceleration. Maybe you'll want to
replace your wheel bearings, as wheel bearing friction could
be a significant source of drag.
You'd have that heavy thing pulling mid 13s(or faster) in
the 1/4 mile with that battery/motor/controller setup I
mentioned, while getting that range you want or better if
it's driven sanely. Considering John Wayland's 5,260 pound
Toyota Xtracab pickup with about 2,300 pounds of Trojan lead
acid batteries in it can do 120 miles range @ 55 MPH, your
van with a similar weight in batteries would probably weigh
around 5,600 pounds and get at least 50 miles range with
that recommended battery setup and proper attention to
aerodynamics(Just the basic modifications that would change
aerodynamics without altering shape or appearance), while
keeping big, sticky tires for traction with a high power
setup. The sealed lead acid batteries I recommended will
usually give you about 10-15% less range per pound of
battery as floodeds, but floodeds are really horrible when
it comes to horsepower. With 2,300 pounds in floodeds, you
won't get more than 50-60 horsepower at the wheels from
them, while that same weight in sealed lead acid, like
Optima Yellowtops could give you 350+ horsepower(being
conservative) at the wheels with the right motor and
controller setup to harness it(That weight in Exide Orbitals
would put out about double the power of Optimas, again with
the right motor and controller to harness it).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is a small price to pay for healtherier batteries. Lee Hart has a
regulator more to your liking. LR
----- Original Message -----
From: "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: Diahartsu Charade Meltdown
There are no regulators on individual batteries.
An ideal regulator would return excess energy to the pack rather than
dissipate the unwanted.
I have voltage logs now. I did a test run of 50ks inc 10 ks @80-100kmph.
The batteries only started heating up when I got home. The batt has lost
capacity now.
Thanks Lawrence for your advice.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Friday, 15 April 2005 2:21 AM
To: djsharpe; [email protected]
Subject: Re: Diahartsu Charade Meltdown
Do you have voltage regulators on each battery? Have you checked finish
voltage of each battery in your pack? I think you will find your pack
highly out of balance and when your friend did the hill climb all the
weaknesses came out. You babied the pack. That is why you didn't
notice.
Your friend drove it as needed. Big difference. If you baby a pack it
will
last longer and problems won't appear. Stress the pack with a hill
climb.
All H E double hockey sticks breaks lose. Check all voltages on all
batteries and document them. Check during charge & after discharge.
This
is how you find weak batteries. Using regulators is how you prevent
making
a weak battery worse. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:53 PM
Subject: Diahartsu Charade Meltdown
This may be a repeat. First hadn't gone thru.
I lent my EV to another member (AM) for promotional purposes & for
showing to other aspiring EV builders. It came back in worse condition
than it went.
The EV has batteries in the front, under the back seat & in the spare
wheel well. There are three parallel strings of Panasonic LC-LA1233P
(12V 33Ahr) 144V nominal, so 36 batteries with Zivan NG3 on board
controller & 9 inch motor.
The NG3 starts off at 15A current limit, followed by 176V constant and
3A for one hour. It is possible to reach 190V during the final stage
according to AM
What has happened is that in the approx centre of mass of the back
seat
batteries there is evidence of heat & pressure as one bat has started
ballooning and others near it have started to melt. The area is not
sealed but has some ports for ventilation. There is supposed to be a
fan
but it isn't working at present. Other batteries are basically OK. The
party balloon has now got a shorted cell.
AM did a 90k return trip involving suburban & freeway with approx 1.5
hr recharge at destination but on the way back he climbed one of the
steepest hills in Melbourne (Wheelers Hill) at about 35mph causing the
DCPS-1200 to squeal. He needed to drop down to a lower gear to finish.
This hill would take about 2 mins to climb.
MF claims the damage was in existence before I lent him the car. I
have
not done any long trips myself only about 60ks max at modest
performance.
So what has caused this Chernobyl? Is pushing the batteries too far
the
problem? Is it the charger?
Can the NG3 be modded to make it more suited to AGM batts?
Should the batts be reconfigured to 12 series groups of 3 paralleled
batts?
Should I fit bypass diodes & voltage limiting circuit to each 12V
group?
Should I torture AM and get the truth out of him?
Your comments will be gratefully apprec'td.
David Sharpe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know there is currently a discussion regarding a generator set passing
around the board right now, but most of the discussion on this topic is
theoretical and I wanted some hard facts and real life examples of a
generator trailer that could be pulled by an EV for long distance
applications. So here are some very specific questions with given factors
considered.
Assumptions:
VW Cabriolet with a 144V DC system and ADC 8" motor w/Curtis controller.
Needs:
Generator to pull on small trailer to power system for long haul >250 miles
on a regular basis.
Questions:
1) Has anyone out there actually made a generator trailer to pull behind
for long distance and if so, do you have specs and plans that could be
duplicated?
2) If answer to question one is negative, what would be required to make
this work?
I have some general ideas but don't know the specifics of the amount
of KW that would be required to drive the ADC 8" at say 70mph on general
highway conditions (no major hills). So, what considerations would have to
be satisfied to make this thing work?
What kind of generator would be best? (AC/DC, Voltage, Amps)
HP to drive generator? (Motorcycle ICE...)
Does generator connect direct to controller with separate contactor that can
be controlled to cut out batteries or in addition to batteries?
Does generator connect to battery charger and charge batteries while
driving? (can that even be done?)
I know that AC Propulsion has a generator pack that they designed for their
car but it is AC and seems to be of substantial overkill for a smaller DC
application like the VW Cabriolet.
Any real world ideas out there?
Jeff 'newbie EVer' Wilson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about get one of those 3,000 watt(25amps?) portable generators
that weigh about 100 lbs and go for around $400 at Pep Boys. Throw
that in the back of the vehicle(or on a small trailer). If you get
somewhere where you can't plug in, drag out your generator and plug
your onboard charger into it.
Someone on this list once said that the vehicle can't be driven AND
charged at the same time? Something about the power can only go in or
out and not both ways at the same time?
Anyone remember that, or is that how it is? A limitation of the batteries?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1) How fast do you want it to go? EVs can be extremely fast.
2) How much money are you willing to spend?
3) You want a maintenance free vehicle, or do you not care
about having to clean and water a set of batteries about
once a month?
Thanks for the welcome and already more options to play with from several
members. For my first attempt, I am going to try and keep costs down, Around
5K or so, not including batterys, and simplicity up. A single DC (9") motor
seems to be a commen starting point w/ a 144 v system. The van is a manual
3 spd, and conviently has a payload rating (from the factory) of over 2000#.
Subtracting the weight of a cast iron V-8, cooling system and exhaust, I
figure this should leave me lots of room in the weight dept. to play with
and am hoping to order the kit within a week or so.
Im not aiming at high speed yet, if I can do 50-60 and make it to work and
back, I will achive my first goal. Although after reading through some of
the racing pages, and already being a 1/4 mile junkie myself, if the van
goes well, I have another one in the back yard.
The commute to work I am hoping to be able to do round trip is about 20
miles and has some mild hills and is only rural highways, so I can take it
easy for the most part. Charging at work is also the main goal (hydro
power) but I have 220vac ready available at home as well.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Most EVs use two (or more) gears because the highway speed gear doesn't
> have enough torque for starting/hills, and you can't do highway speeds in
> the start/hill gear without the motor going into self-disassembly mode.
> It doesn't matter whether the motor is driving or idling when you exceed
> it's safe RPMs, the results are the same.
>
> So, unless your motor has enough torque to start in the same gear it can
> survive highway speeds in, you'll still need two gears.
>
Most EVs use one gear to get to 45mph. You'd want a motor with enough torque to
handle 0-45mph (e.g.- 0-3000rpm) with only one gear ratio, but also assist at
up to twice that speed; my thoughts were centered around 3-wheels, 2-3 seats
and preferrably under 1000# unloaded, so I'm only invisioning Etek/LEMCO-sized
peak outputs, with only a frction of that needed to get to the 45mph cut-off.
Another data point is my Saturn, which signals me to shift to fifth gear even
*before* it hits 45mph (irritating little yellow up arrow), so this ICE at
least is comfortable with one gear from there on up.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:00:27 -0500, "Jeff and Diane"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I know there is currently a discussion regarding a generator set passing
>around the board right now, but most of the discussion on this topic is
>theoretical and I wanted some hard facts and real life examples of a
>generator trailer that could be pulled by an EV for long distance
>applications. So here are some very specific questions with given factors
>considered.
I've been doing this for years so maybe I can throw in some advice.
>
>Assumptions:
>VW Cabriolet with a 144V DC system and ADC 8" motor w/Curtis controller.
>
>Needs:
>Generator to pull on small trailer to power system for long haul >250 miles
>on a regular basis.
This one will be easy. That's pretty close to the peak voltage of a
120 volt AC generator. Therefore only slight mods would be necessary.
No need to reinvent the wheel. Simply buy the appropriate portable
generator and slightly modify it. You want one with an external field
regulator. Most Hondas, Yamahas, generacs and several others fit the
bill. You'd want to look at the manual and determine a) that the
field rotor has slip rings and b: look at the schematic to see that
there is an external voltage regulator black box.
The first modification will be to put an appropriately sized bridge
rectifier in the output. For a 4kw generator, a 50 or 100 amp, 400
volt bridge will do the trick.
The second mod is to make the field variable so that the output
voltage can be controlled. Many generators have a simple circuit
board. Some even have an adjustment pot on the board. Others are
completely potted and are non-adjustable. I'd try to avoid the potted
boxes. Making a regulator is trivially easy (I can supply a
schematic) but it's even easier to just modify an existing board.
If the regulator has a pot then if you're lucky, all you have to do is
turn the pot up a little. At most you might have to change a scaling
resistor. I'll be happy to help with that if you need it.
If the regulator is fixed but not potted then we add a pot adjustment.
Operation
Since you're no longer concerned with 60hz and ARE concerned with best
mileage, we change the operating conditions. An engine's BSFC (brake
specific fuel consumption) is almost always near the torque peak with
the throttle wide open (minimizing pumping losses.) BSFC curves might
be available from the engine MFR or you can measure it fairly easily
with little equipment and some patience. I can show you how.
Anyway, you'll want to run the engine at the BSFC point as much as
possible. What you do is set the engine RPM to the BSFC and then run
up the field to raise the output voltage until the engine loads with
charging current.
Run the engine there as long as there is sufficient load to maintain
full throttle. As the electrical load drops, lower the throttle
(actually the governor's RPM setpoint) until the throttle is again
wide open at a lower RPM. This is no longer the most economical speed
but the wide open throttle (WOT) keeps the pumping losses the lowest
while the reduced RPM reduces mechanical losses. Adjust the field
excitation if necessary - a good regulator will hold the setpoint over
a wide speed range - to keep the output voltage to the desired point
for the current stage of the charge.
This whole scheme is very amenable to automation. In fact, I've done
just that for one of my generators using a Parallax Basic STAMP board.
If money is a big concern, you could go with this generator.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=200313480&R=200313480
http://tinyurl.com/5b5vj
This is one of those ChiCom products that they must have made millions
of and then private labeled for numerous vendors. I bought one 2
years ago from one of those flea market ChiCom tool vendors for $129.
This is a lightweight and low noise 2 stroke 1kw generator. In
reality it will produce considerably more than 1kw without
overheating. If you use one of the modern 80:1 smokeless synthetic
2-stroke oils, there is no smoke and little to no odor.
I have modified mine in a similar manner as above to be my 72 volt
range extender in my CitiCar. It is light weight and carries enough
fuel for several hours of full throttle operation.
If money isn't such a large concern but quiet and low emissions is,
then consider this unit:
http://www.advrv.com/specials.htm
The Generac QuietPack line. The 40G is pictured. Also in the line is
the 55G, 65G and 75G. The 40G is the lightest but also the noisiest
because it uses a single cylinder engine running 3600 RPM. The others
use a 2 cylinder engine running at lower RPM. Interestingly enough,
the 55, 65 and 75G are identical in all respects except the generator
gearing. The engine and generator are coupled by a cog belt. the 55G
runs the engine at 2100 RPM while the others run at 2700. To make a
75G out of a 55G, all that is required is to buy a new pulley and belt
set and change the breakers.
I have a 55G and can say that it is the most quiet generator I've ever
been around. There's a page on the generator on my web site:
http://www.johngsbbq.com/Neon_John_site/Generator/Quiet_pack_55G/Quiet_home.htm
As you can see, the generator is quite accessible, as are the
controls. The control box is large enough to install a bridge for the
DC output. One could even make a two position governor control so
that in one position the engine speed is adjustable and in the other
it is fixed. That way you could use the generator for both AC and DC
but not at the same time, of course.
There are several options available, depending on how handy you are
with tools.
One is the line of ChiCom Honda Clones being offered by an importer.
One model is water cooled which would make a very quiet and durable
generator.
Another option is to convert a small automotive engine by adding a
generator. One of the best deals is this Italian made unit.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45416
I have one of these lashed up to a 32 hp twin cylinder diesel
generator. This one uses a self-excited field rotor(not so good) and
a resonant control winding in the stator to control the voltage. The
voltage can be changed by adding or subtracting capacitance to the
resonant coil. I use this feature to jack up the voltage output when
I'm driving a long cord, say, to my concession trailer. For your
application, a 10 position switch with various sized capacitors
attached would provide sufficient voltage range.
A small automotive diesel like a Rabbit, for instance, would make a
quiet, durable and miserly generator. Again I'd want to operate the
generator at its best BSFC RPM point and gear the generator
accordingly. A timing belt is the most efficient and least noisy and
lowest maintenance of the various drive possibilities.
John
>
>Questions:
>1) Has anyone out there actually made a generator trailer to pull behind
>for long distance and if so, do you have specs and plans that could be
>duplicated?
>2) If answer to question one is negative, what would be required to make
>this work?
> I have some general ideas but don't know the specifics of the amount
>of KW that would be required to drive the ADC 8" at say 70mph on general
>highway conditions (no major hills). So, what considerations would have to
>be satisfied to make this thing work?
>
>What kind of generator would be best? (AC/DC, Voltage, Amps)
>HP to drive generator? (Motorcycle ICE...)
>Does generator connect direct to controller with separate contactor that can
>be controlled to cut out batteries or in addition to batteries?
>Does generator connect to battery charger and charge batteries while
>driving? (can that even be done?)
>
>I know that AC Propulsion has a generator pack that they designed for their
>car but it is AC and seems to be of substantial overkill for a smaller DC
>application like the VW Cabriolet.
>
>Any real world ideas out there?
>
>Jeff 'newbie EVer' Wilson
>
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
I am in the process of switching out my potbox to the Hall-effect unit
available with the Zilla. I've been using a Curtis PB-6. It has the
microswitch. It's only had about 3 months of use on it. This potbox
goes for between $75 and $80. I'll sell it for $65 which includes
shipping. I can ship it in about a month since I'll need to keep using
it until I get my other pedal arrangements made.
Contact me off-list if interested.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>How about get one of those 3,000 watt(25amps?) portable generators
>that weigh about 100 lbs and go for around $400 at Pep Boys. Throw
>that in the back of the vehicle(or on a small trailer). If you get
>somewhere where you can't plug in, drag out your generator and plug
>your onboard charger into it.
The problem with that is that I would only be able to go until my bats need
recharge then wait till they charge and start out again.
>Someone on this list once said that the vehicle can't be driven AND
>charged at the same time? Something about the power can only go in or
>out and not both ways at the same time?
>Anyone remember that, or is that how it is? A limitation of the batteries?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> 1) How fast do you want it to go? EVs can be extremely fast.
>> 2) How much money are you willing to spend?
>> 3) You want a maintenance free vehicle, or do you not care
>> about having to clean and water a set of batteries about
>> once a month?
>
>
> Thanks for the welcome and already more options to play with from several
> members. For my first attempt, I am going to try and keep costs down,
> Around
> 5K or so, not including batterys, and simplicity up. A single DC (9")
> motor
> seems to be a commen starting point w/ a 144 v system. The van is a
> manual
> 3 spd, and conviently has a payload rating (from the factory) of over
> 2000#.
> Subtracting the weight of a cast iron V-8, cooling system and exhaust, I
> figure this should leave me lots of room in the weight dept. to play with
> and am hoping to order the kit within a week or so.
>
> Im not aiming at high speed yet, if I can do 50-60 and make it to
> work and
> back, I will achive my first goal. Although after reading through some of
> the racing pages, and already being a 1/4 mile junkie myself, if the van
> goes well, I have another one in the back yard.
>
> The commute to work I am hoping to be able to do round trip is about 20
> miles and has some mild hills and is only rural highways, so I can take it
> easy for the most part. Charging at work is also the main goal (hydro
> power) but I have 220vac ready available at home as well.
If you're going with floodeds, you shouldn't use more than a 500A controller to
prevent battery damage, so 144V means about 72hp from the motor, which will
probably appreciate all 3 of the tranny's gears! You should shoot for charging
at work: with more than 2 tons of rolling weight and the kind of aero drag vans
give you, trying to get round trip is going to drain the pack pretty deep and
shorten its life (assuming you already take due care with charging, watering,
etc). In the end, "the proof is in the pudding" (i.e.-make it, *then* work on
the fine tuning that gets the range up).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am interested in your thoughts on voltage control during charging. Are
bypass diodes recommended?
David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Sunday, 17 April 2005 7:33 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: Diahartsu Charade Meltdown
It is a small price to pay for healtherier batteries. Lee Hart has a
regulator more to your liking. LR
----- Original Message -----
From: "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: Diahartsu Charade Meltdown
> There are no regulators on individual batteries.
> An ideal regulator would return excess energy to the pack rather than
> dissipate the unwanted.
> I have voltage logs now. I did a test run of 50ks inc 10 ks
@80-100kmph.
> The batteries only started heating up when I got home. The batt has
lost
> capacity now.
> Thanks Lawrence for your advice.
> David
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Friday, 15 April 2005 2:21 AM
> To: djsharpe; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Diahartsu Charade Meltdown
>
> Do you have voltage regulators on each battery? Have you checked
finish
> voltage of each battery in your pack? I think you will find your pack
> highly out of balance and when your friend did the hill climb all the
> weaknesses came out. You babied the pack. That is why you didn't
> notice.
> Your friend drove it as needed. Big difference. If you baby a pack
it
> will
> last longer and problems won't appear. Stress the pack with a hill
> climb.
> All H E double hockey sticks breaks lose. Check all voltages on all
> batteries and document them. Check during charge & after discharge.
> This
> is how you find weak batteries. Using regulators is how you prevent
> making
> a weak battery worse. Lawrence Rhodes........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:53 PM
> Subject: Diahartsu Charade Meltdown
>
>
>>
>> This may be a repeat. First hadn't gone thru.
>> I lent my EV to another member (AM) for promotional purposes & for
>> showing to other aspiring EV builders. It came back in worse
condition
>> than it went.
>> The EV has batteries in the front, under the back seat & in the spare
>> wheel well. There are three parallel strings of Panasonic LC-LA1233P
>> (12V 33Ahr) 144V nominal, so 36 batteries with Zivan NG3 on board
>> controller & 9 inch motor.
>> The NG3 starts off at 15A current limit, followed by 176V constant
and
>> 3A for one hour. It is possible to reach 190V during the final stage
>> according to AM
>> What has happened is that in the approx centre of mass of the back
> seat
>> batteries there is evidence of heat & pressure as one bat has started
>> ballooning and others near it have started to melt. The area is not
>> sealed but has some ports for ventilation. There is supposed to be a
> fan
>> but it isn't working at present. Other batteries are basically OK.
The
>> party balloon has now got a shorted cell.
>>
>> AM did a 90k return trip involving suburban & freeway with approx 1.5
>> hr recharge at destination but on the way back he climbed one of the
>> steepest hills in Melbourne (Wheelers Hill) at about 35mph causing
the
>> DCPS-1200 to squeal. He needed to drop down to a lower gear to
finish.
>> This hill would take about 2 mins to climb.
>> MF claims the damage was in existence before I lent him the car. I
> have
>> not done any long trips myself only about 60ks max at modest
>> performance.
>> So what has caused this Chernobyl? Is pushing the batteries too far
> the
>> problem? Is it the charger?
>> Can the NG3 be modded to make it more suited to AGM batts?
>> Should the batts be reconfigured to 12 series groups of 3 paralleled
>> batts?
>> Should I fit bypass diodes & voltage limiting circuit to each 12V
> group?
>> Should I torture AM and get the truth out of him?
>> Your comments will be gratefully apprec'td.
>> David Sharpe
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm making my own adapter for my Echo conversion, and I've run into a
possible snag.
I just finished machining my hub ( I'm using a purchased QD taper bushing on
the motor shaft). A friend of mine has a lathe, and helped me out with it,
but clearly my machining skills need some work.
I mounted the hub on the motor shaft and torqued the locking screws to spec
( provided by by the bushing manufacturer), and released the brush springs
so I can spin the hub easily. The flywheel surface runout seem OK: The
Toyota manual ( this is an Echo) gives a TIR limit of 0.004 inches at the
outer part of the flywheel friction surface, and I measure 0.003 on mine.
Fine.
But, the flywheel is visibly ( barely) running out in its own plane. I
measured TIR = 0.005 inches, at the flywheel centering boss on the hub .
That is, the center of the flywheel doesn't line up with the center of the
motor shaft. ( Don't ask how I could have made the part this way).
How much in-plane runout of the flywheel is a problem? Maybe this isn't
critical as long as the motor centerline is aligned with the transmission
centerline ( which I will do) and, balance the flywheel/clutch assembly on
the motor shaft.
Any ideas on this? If will be a few weeks at least before I have the
adapter plate finished and can assemble and run the motor/transmission, but
I'd like to solve this problem first ( if it is a problem)
Comments, ideas???
By the way, I did try removing and remounting the hub, in different
rotations relative to the bushing, and the runout is pretty consistent, so
I'm sure it is the hub itself.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The problem with that is that I would only be able to go until my bats need
> recharge then wait till they charge and start out again.
>
> >Someone on this list once said that the vehicle can't be driven AND
> >charged at the same time? Something about the power can only go in or
> >out and not both ways at the same time?
>
> >Anyone remember that, or is that how it is? A limitation of the batteries?
>
I imagine some little guy with an Inspector Clouseau accent and an officious
uniform checking all the electrons at the border to the controller:
"Your paperz, pleez?"
Generator juice hands over its passport.
"Oh, I am zo zorry, but you are not allowed in here with zeez paperz. Go zare",
pointing to the battery pack.
ICE-created voltage turns to go to the batteries, finding another odious
official:
"May I zee you paperz, pleez?"
Supplimental power again fishes out a passport.
"You must turn back, monseur, I cannot allow you in here. Zee country is driving
right now, and electrons are only allowed out of our country at zis time."
"But I just got turned away from the controller! Where can I go?!"
"I am zorry, but you must return to where you came."
"Well, what if I just sneak in when the controller switches to regenerative
braking?"
"Zis is not possible, those electrons will be given proper paperz when zay leave
zee controller. You must go home now."
So, the forlorned wattage has to turn back, overloading the alternator with too
much refugee power, fireballing their homeland [you overhear the Generator
Voltage national anthem at their funeral]
No, neither the pack nor the controller will care where they get their electrons
came from, and if the controller is pulling less than the generator is putting
out, then the extra can get pumped into the pack (unless you've somehow
installed that cruel martinet, a diode, somewhere in the HV cable!) This all
depends on having a high enough voltage to make a difference, and it makes the
most difference when the current is also fairly sizeable, but "every little bit
helps"!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Because unnecessary weight is everything to acceleration and range, the massive
transmission should be viewed with suspicion. Formula 440 race cars have used
variable belt drives (one fixed and one centrifugally variable pulley) under
extreme conditions for some time. They are exceptionally light, simple and,
with maintenance, durable. Anyone messed with these puppies?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My electric lawn mower needs new batteries. They are
little 12 V, 15 Ahr sealed lead acid batteries with
Spade terminals. The dimensions are something like 7 x
3 x 7.
I seem to remember someone on this list having a good
source for surplus batteries. Does anyone know a good
source for batteries that would meet this application
?
I found the power-sonic PS12180-F for $35 a piece at
batterystation.com. Is this a decent battery ? Anyone
know of a better price ?
thanks
~fortunat
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As far as clutch engagement is concerned, it shouldn't make any
difference...as long as the motor and tranny shafts are lined up.
Not sure, but it might cause a ballance problem at high RPMs though.
> I'm making my own adapter for my Echo conversion, and I've run into a
> possible snag.
>
> I just finished machining my hub ( I'm using a purchased QD taper bushing
> on
> the motor shaft). A friend of mine has a lathe, and helped me out with
> it,
> but clearly my machining skills need some work.
>
> I mounted the hub on the motor shaft and torqued the locking screws to
> spec
> ( provided by by the bushing manufacturer), and released the brush springs
> so I can spin the hub easily. The flywheel surface runout seem OK: The
> Toyota manual ( this is an Echo) gives a TIR limit of 0.004 inches at the
> outer part of the flywheel friction surface, and I measure 0.003 on mine.
> Fine.
>
> But, the flywheel is visibly ( barely) running out in its own plane. I
> measured TIR = 0.005 inches, at the flywheel centering boss on the hub .
> That is, the center of the flywheel doesn't line up with the center of
> the
> motor shaft. ( Don't ask how I could have made the part this way).
>
> How much in-plane runout of the flywheel is a problem? Maybe this isn't
> critical as long as the motor centerline is aligned with the transmission
> centerline ( which I will do) and, balance the flywheel/clutch assembly
> on
> the motor shaft.
>
> Any ideas on this? If will be a few weeks at least before I have the
> adapter plate finished and can assemble and run the motor/transmission,
> but
> I'd like to solve this problem first ( if it is a problem)
>
>
> Comments, ideas???
>
> By the way, I did try removing and remounting the hub, in different
> rotations relative to the bushing, and the runout is pretty consistent, so
> I'm sure it is the hub itself.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now!
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you're missing my point. Unless you disconnect the Etek (or
whatever) from the drive train, it won't survive going over 45 mph in low
gear. It will overspin.
It doesn't matter whether the Etek is powering the load or the ICE is, all
that matters is the RPM.
>> Most EVs use two (or more) gears because the highway speed gear doesn't
>> have enough torque for starting/hills, and you can't do highway speeds
>> in
>> the start/hill gear without the motor going into self-disassembly mode.
>> It doesn't matter whether the motor is driving or idling when you exceed
>> it's safe RPMs, the results are the same.
>>
>> So, unless your motor has enough torque to start in the same gear it can
>> survive highway speeds in, you'll still need two gears.
>>
>
> Most EVs use one gear to get to 45mph. You'd want a motor with enough
> torque to
> handle 0-45mph (e.g.- 0-3000rpm) with only one gear ratio, but also assist
> at
> up to twice that speed; my thoughts were centered around 3-wheels, 2-3
> seats
> and preferrably under 1000# unloaded, so I'm only invisioning
> Etek/LEMCO-sized
> peak outputs, with only a frction of that needed to get to the 45mph
> cut-off.
>
> Another data point is my Saturn, which signals me to shift to fifth gear
> even
> *before* it hits 45mph (irritating little yellow up arrow), so this ICE at
> least is comfortable with one gear from there on up.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Numerous folks have built and used range extending trailers.
I think you might have to give up the 70 mph requirement though. Just an
off the top of my head swag, but I think 70 mph pulling a trailer is going
to require AT LEAST 30kw. At 144V, 30kw is right at the 1 hour rating on
a 9" motor (200+ amps). Trying to drive for 4 hours at a motor's 1 hour
rating will most likely result in a dead motor (and possibly controller).
It's true that you can't charge a battery at the same time it's
discharging, but this doesn't mean that you can't run a charger while your
driving. If the generator is producing more power than the motor needs,
the surplus will go INTO the batteries. If it's producing less than the
motor needs, the remainder will come OUT of the batteries. If it produces
exactly what the motor needs, then nothing happens at the batteries. You
don't have to worry about it, it all happeens naturally.
For unlimited range you will need to select a generator that can
continuously supply however much power you will need for highway driving.
The best way to figure this out is to build the EV, hook up a trailer that
weighs approx what the generator trailer will weigh, and take it for a
spin. Use an Amp meter or Emeter to measuring how much current is
required to drive, this is how many amps the generator needs to provide.
If you just want to extend your range, say to 4 times normal range, figure
out how much current your batteries can supply for four hours, and
subtract this from the above number.
If you are using something like T-105 batteries, I think they can safely
supply about 35 amps continuous for four hours.
One of the more important things you must be careful of is inadvertantly
shorting something out. If the generator ties one of the output legs to
ground, then you will need to isolate the generator's ground from the
vehicle. Otherwise you will end up shorting one side of your high voltage
pack to the vehicle's ground (body), if you have leakage somewhere to the
other side of the pack you might end up shorting out your controller and
letting the smoke out. Controllers don't work to well once the smoke
escapes. Not to mention the fact that this is a safety hazard.
While you can just use a diode bridge to power the EV directly from the
generator, this will be at a low power factor. You won't be able to get
the full rated power out of the generator. Either oversize the generator,
or buy a power factor correcting charge. The later is probably a good
idea since you'll need a charger anyway.
If you do use a charger, again pay attention to what's happening with your
grounds.
You'd expect that if the genny maker was goign to tie one side of it's
output to ground, that they'd tie the neutral lead to ground, from what I
understand this isn't always so. With a grounded, non-isolated charger,
this could cause big problems, and the release of some of that vital
smoke.
> I know there is currently a discussion regarding a generator set passing
> around the board right now, but most of the discussion on this topic is
> theoretical and I wanted some hard facts and real life examples of a
> generator trailer that could be pulled by an EV for long distance
> applications. So here are some very specific questions with given factors
> considered.
>
> Assumptions:
> VW Cabriolet with a 144V DC system and ADC 8" motor w/Curtis controller.
>
> Needs:
> Generator to pull on small trailer to power system for long haul >250
> miles
> on a regular basis.
>
> Questions:
> 1) Has anyone out there actually made a generator trailer to pull behind
> for long distance and if so, do you have specs and plans that could be
> duplicated?
> 2) If answer to question one is negative, what would be required to make
> this work?
> I have some general ideas but don't know the specifics of the
> amount
> of KW that would be required to drive the ADC 8" at say 70mph on general
> highway conditions (no major hills). So, what considerations would have
> to
> be satisfied to make this thing work?
>
> What kind of generator would be best? (AC/DC, Voltage, Amps)
> HP to drive generator? (Motorcycle ICE...)
> Does generator connect direct to controller with separate contactor that
> can
> be controlled to cut out batteries or in addition to batteries?
> Does generator connect to battery charger and charge batteries while
> driving? (can that even be done?)
>
> I know that AC Propulsion has a generator pack that they designed for
> their
> car but it is AC and seems to be of substantial overkill for a smaller DC
> application like the VW Cabriolet.
>
> Any real world ideas out there?
>
> Jeff 'newbie EVer' Wilson
>
>
--- End Message ---
