EV Digest 4293
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: EV noise when shifting? (MIG)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: corvette glider
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Cheep thermostat circuit
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Generator trailer vs Drive Motor
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Battery Operating Voltages
by Nawaz Qureshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery Operating Voltages
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) about PHEV
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery Operating Voltages
by Nawaz Qureshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: corvette glider
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: about PHEV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Battery Operating Voltages
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: BB600 screw size?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: about PHEV
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: corvette glider
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: about PHEV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: Question to lead batteries experts
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: about PHEV
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Milwaukee Electric Tool V28 Lithium Ion Tech. Plans for autos?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: about PHEV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Batt-Bridge monitor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Apr 2005 at 14:07, Roger Stockton wrote:
> It seems to vary from vehicle to vehicle.
I once (accidentally) flat-towed my '74 Honda Civic conversion (Prestolite
motor) for nearly 10 miles at 50 mph in second gear. It suffered no damage
that I could detect. That's not as bad as first gear by any means, but I'm
sure it was well over the Prestolite's rev limit.
Nevertheless, I don't recommend this!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Carl Clifford wrote:
> Not mine, just a heads-up
> needs a lot but lightweight and cheap - somebody please convert a Corvette!
>
Corvettes are anything but light. The unpopular '78 model you have posted about
('75 thru '79
was a dark period for the Vette) weighs over 3100 lbs.! The 'only' light
Corvettes, ever, were
the very first ones, back in the early 50's when they were a more reasonable
size, had the
famous Blue Flame six cylinder, and weighed around 2500 lbs. Even this amount
of weight isn't
all that light compared to other cars that are far lighter. The first gen.
Corvettes are very
rare, super collectable, and go for $500,000 and up. Excluding these earliest
Corvettes, almost
any Corvette you can find, tips the scales at 3000+ lbs.
It's a common misconception, that because they have fiberglass body parts, a
Corvette is light.
Corvettes have always had a weight problem, and until the most recent model,
which is
thankfully smaller than it's predecessor, they have become porkier as the years
go on.
Pretty much any road test of a Corvette, even when done by testers who are
Vette fans,
mentions how heavy the Vette is. Statements like "It handles well for a car
this heavy",
or "If it were only 500 lbs. lighter, it would be even better".
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been using the Rite Temp electronic thermostats to keep my
battery boxes within about 5 degrees F all winter ( I have 4 separate
battery zones). I did as you stated, cliped the thermistor (it does
look like a glass diode, but it's not), put a 20 inch lead on it. Put
the lead with the termistor in the battery box and the relay outside
down low (less chance of H2 burning that way)! I suspect you would
need to replace the batteries every fall to make sure they keep working.
If they do not, I'm on the bus. Haven't had to ride the bus for that
reason yet.
Lynn
14151 miles on my 136V pack of T875's (one died)
See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Chapman
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 3:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Cheep thermostat circuit
John Ds "Dallas One Wire" solution is worth bearing a look by anyone
needing
a thermostat that can be built into most anything like battery boxes,
regulator boards, overtemp monitor or fan control for a battery charger
etc.
Those things really are amazing and flexable. They even make something
called an I-button that from a cursory look seemed ideal for interfacing
smart chargers, key fob billing for charging scheme, etc. I got up this
morning all full of P&V, was gonna go pick up a programmer kit and a
couple
of the Dallas pieces and darned if in all of Phx, I couldn't find a one
"in
stock". Guy at my main electronics outlet said that there was little
call
for stuff like that anymore, even from the DeVry students!! Gonna have
to
order one directly from Dallas I guess.
Lees point about cheap household thermostats at HD or Menards was plan
A2 so
I hit the local Depot and Lo, there on the shelf was a Rite-Temp (SKU
781-151) heat only unit that was only 10 bucks. 2/3 the size of a pack
of
cigarettes, runs off 24 Vac or can be self contained off 2 AA batts and
has
a onboard relay (rated 30V 2A DC or 125Vac @ 1A). Score for me as I am
running a 25w 12 V load!! What is even better for EVers is that once I
opened the case and figured out what the temp sensor was (was expecting
a
thermistor but this one looks like a small glass diode) it appears that
there will be no problem extending the sensor thru the back of the case
so
this can be mounted on the side of a (battery?) box and sense the
temperature inside the box. Could control a muffin fan directly or
relays
for battery heaters, cabin heater etc. And it looks like with a simple
mechanical modification to the knob stop it can go somewhat above 100
Deg.
There is also a trimmer on the board that I am going to investigate to
see
if it trims the temp or the hysteresis. Hmm wonder if I can get some
design
notes from Rite-Temp? Doubt it, LOL.
And I agree David, it WAS shamefully OT. I will do penance as soon as
the
swelling in my knuckles goes down. But it did get me a couple thermostat
ideas and a workable solution to my immediate problem :-). Now for the
egg
rotator project.... David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Lord Khaos wrote:
> being the hopless gearhead and Mopar fanatic that I am one car that seemed
> overlooked
>
> in that catagory is the early Barracudas.
> They are extremely light......
>
What's your definition of 'extremely light'? Anything around 2000 lbs. is
merely light,
certainly not extremely light. Extremely light by most automotive standards, is
any production car under 1700 lbs. For example, a Honda Insight at 1887 lbs. is
considered light...not extremely light, just light. A little Datsun 1200 sedan
however,
which stock weighed 1587 lbs., qualifies as extremely light. A Fiat 600 sedan
at under 1500
lbs., extremely light. Anything over 2500 lbs., is not even 'light'.
My guess, is that an early Barracuda weighs about the same as a '64 - 66
Mustang, at around
2500 - 2600 lbs., which hardly classifies it as 'extremely light'. In my book,
it's heavy. Perhaps
you meant to say, that compared to other American cars of the period, the
Barracuda is light?
Now, would it be cool to convert an older classic Mopar?...absolutely! I took
part in converting
a '65 Mustang, and the electrified version handled well, accelerated well, and
got about
35 miles range per charge. It was featured in Mustang Illustrated magazine.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All of this brings about a large question? What kind of motors have a
continuous duty cycle that would let you keep driving?
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: 2005/04/16 Sat PM 11:53:55 GMT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Generator trailer
>
>
> From: Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >How about get one of those 3,000 watt(25amps?) portable generators
> >that weigh about 100 lbs and go for around $400 at Pep Boys. Throw
> >that in the back of the vehicle(or on a small trailer). If you get
> >somewhere where you can't plug in, drag out your generator and plug
> >your onboard charger into it.
>
> The problem with that is that I would only be able to go until my bats need
> recharge then wait till they charge and start out again.
>
> >Someone on this list once said that the vehicle can't be driven AND
> >charged at the same time? Something about the power can only go in or
> >out and not both ways at the same time?
>
> >Anyone remember that, or is that how it is? A limitation of the batteries?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Speaking of Spyders, there appears to be a Fiat Spyder for sale on my way
into Modesto. If anyone has an interest, I could stop and get some info. Not
sure what kind of EV it would make, as I am not fond of Fiats.
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:34 AM
Subject: Fwd: Re: Build an EV from the ground up
--- "Kirk A. Reinkens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey Dave, what do you mean by "Before reality set in.."? I'd like to hear
a
little more about that.
Reality for me was just the price tag. I really like the Spyder, but it
would be hard to find a
rolling chassis for less than $10,000 US. And I didn't want to get shut
down on my first project
because of money. I think kit cars are a great way to go if you have the
funding. They are
basically a new car without having to get rid of all the ICE related
stuff. Think of what a nice
installation you can build with a wide open chassis to work with. I'm
trying to find a car that I
can easily build, easily sell. The first one though, is for learning.
My cost so far;
$2500 - Donor vehicle (some money to be recouped selling parts)
500 - ADC 9", 2 contactors, ammeter and shunt, Curtis controller and
potbox,
fuses, various cables all from a previous conversion.
400 - Battery pack
203 - Emeter Link 10 from eBay
Yet to go;
Controller - $2400 ? (don't want to be limited by a 400 amp controller)
Charger - 2500 ? (need to charge over 300 volts)
Etc., etc. - ???????
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello:
The battery operating Voltage is inversely proportional to the current
draw. The examples below are for a 12 Volt nominal battery. At moderate
rates let us say 100 Amps or lower, the recommended lower cut-off
Voltage is 10.5 Volts to prevent cell reversal. At relatively high
currents, the operating Voltage can be much lower without cause for
alarm: For instance, while cranking an ICE, you can draw up to 600
Amperes. during which time, the Voltage is 7 to 9 Volts with a lower cut
off limit of 6 Volts at which point, the battery will not crank any way.
This does not cause any damage to the battery, because the acid in the
pores of the plates has been consumed, and if you wait, more will
diffuse in to give you a second shot. There is no permanent cell reversal.
Sincerely
Nawaz Qureshi
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's a great article on dropping 600 lbs from a car:
<http://www.hotrod.com/howto/113_0310_loseii/index1.html>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very interesting. I've always been extremely gentle with the Prizm
thinking that high currents at low voltage would equal reversal.
Does this still hold in a string of batteries, say 25? What if most of
them have some capacity left and one can't put out. Doesn't that one
weaker battery go reverse when 200+ amps are rolling thru it?
Chris
Nawaz Qureshi wrote:
Hello:
The battery operating Voltage is inversely proportional to the current
draw. The examples below are for a 12 Volt nominal battery. At moderate
rates let us say 100 Amps or lower, the recommended lower cut-off
Voltage is 10.5 Volts to prevent cell reversal. At relatively high
currents, the operating Voltage can be much lower without cause for
alarm: For instance, while cranking an ICE, you can draw up to 600
Amperes. during which time, the Voltage is 7 to 9 Volts with a lower cut
off limit of 6 Volts at which point, the battery will not crank any way.
This does not cause any damage to the battery, because the acid in the
pores of the plates has been consumed, and if you wait, more will
diffuse in to give you a second shot. There is no permanent cell reversal.
Sincerely
Nawaz Qureshi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/03/new_plugin_hybr_1.html
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Uh lightweight. I thought Corvette's were pigs as far as weight goes?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Clifford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 6:51 PM
Subject: corvette glider
Not mine, just a heads-up
needs a lot but lightweight and cheap - somebody please convert a
Corvette!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4544118786&category=39405
Carl
Denver
grinless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
I read this a few days ago and called Valence to inquire about their
batteries. They are currently making batteries by hand in their plant in
Austin, TX. A single 12 volt battery with 40 Ahr will run you $825. That's
a little over $10K for batteries, charger and management system. However,
they are ramping up a facility in China to mass produce these new batteries
at a much reduced price. It looks like about $6K for a set of 12, possibly
lower by this time next year depending on market acceptance and volume. The
new batteries only weigh 13lbs each for a 40 Ahr, 12v battery and it has the
same dimensions as a standard 12 volt battery. Testing shows a substantial
increase in cycle life. Should last most people over 10 years and as much
as 15 years. They also have a better power curve and can withstand a much
deeper discharge than typical for lead acid.
The future is looking pretty bright. Even at $6K for 144 volt traction
pack, if it lasts the 10 - 15 year life span that makes it a far better cost
over lead acid.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: about PHEV
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/03/new_plugin_hybr_1.html
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nawaz, could you please type in your message in ASCII rather than attach
data? List server will remove attachments even if they are ASCII too.
Nawaz Qureshi wrote:
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are a few emails between me and Marathon technician. I had the manual
but I can't find it now. Could someone that I sent the manual to please
send Mark Hanson the manual as an attachment. Thanks LR.........
Try this URL, which preports to be full manual for a "BB-693A/U" battery
which is made up of nineteen cells of type "BB-600A/A", "as used in the
Vulcan Air Defense System". (The web page is hard to read, do to poor HTML,
I had to set the font size to "smallest" in IE or "75%" in Netscape):
http://www.tpub.com/content/batteries/TM-11-6140-203-14-4P/index.htm
Here are the basic Specifications.
Sorry that the formating is ugly, but you should see the original!:
======= ======== ==========
Type: Nickel-Cadmium (vented).
Number of Cells: 19 BB-600A/A.
Electrolyte: Potassium hydroxide (KOH), 31 percent (by weight) in distilled
water.
Operating range:
Temperature: -40� F(-40' C) to 1250 F (51.70 C).
Atmospheric pressure: Sea level to 100,000 feet (0.4 inch of mercury).
Storage:
Duration: Unlimited, regardless of state of charge.
Temperature: -650 F to 1650 F (73.9� C).
Atmospheric pressure: Sea level to 100,000 feet (0.4 inch of mercury).
Electrical:
Rating:
30 ampere hours at 1 hour rate,
40 ampere hours at 5 hour rate.
Current::
At temperature of approximately 750 F (2400 C)
8 amperes for approximately 5 hours;
30 amperes for approximately 1 hour,
270 amperes for approximately 5 minutes.
At temperature of approximately-22* F (300 C)
270 amperes for approximately 3 minutes.
Voltage:
Open circuit at J2 : Approximately 2 volts (fully charged with 24-hour rest
period).
Open circuit at J1: Approximately 9 volts (fully charge with 24-hour rest
period).
Under load at J2:
Temperature of approximately 750 F (24� C):
8-ampere load: 24 volts decreasing to not less than 19.2 volts in 5 hours.
30-ampere load : 24 volts decreasing to not less than 18 volts in 1 hour.
270-ampere load: 24 volts decreasing to not less than 14.4 volts in 5
minutes.
772-ampere load 24 volts decreasing to not less than 11.0 volts in 1 minute
(3, 20 second pulses).
Temperature of approximately - 22' F (-30� C):
270-ampere load: 24 volts decreasing to not less than 14.4 volts in 3
minutes.
Battery terminal links:
Material: Nickel-plated copper.
Number: 19.
Cell plate materials:
Positive (charged) : Nickel oxide.
Negative (charged): Cadmium.
Separator material: Plastic laminate.
Cell case material: Molded Nylon.
Connector type (24-volt): MS3509 (J2).
Connector type (8.4-volt): MS3102R-16-12S (J1).
Connector type (heater): MS3102R-14A-7P (J3).
Heater:
General Electric: 175 watts at 20 volts.
SAFT, Marathon: 375 watts at 20 volts.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 09:01 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List', 'Zappylist'
Subject: Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare me.
I inquired to Marathon about the BB600 batteries. I don't know weather to
cry, sell them to John Wayland or buy a Zilla from Otmar. Lawrence
Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Elkjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:19 PM
Subject: RE: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
Lawrence,
I think that you should understand a little more about what you have on
your
hands. These are not a typical nickel cadmium cell. They are manufactured
to
perform in very extreme environments as found on tactical (fighter)
aircraft. They are designed to put out 1,000 to 1,800 amps per cell. The
list price for these cells is $466 each. From your response I can see that
you have done some research on basic, low cost, low quality, low drain,
battery systems - these are not in that category. Adding things such as
mineral oil would not only not be of any benefit it could be dangerous.
Automatic watering systems are used in low end systems and should never be
used with these cells. The addition of water to these cells should only be
done under very controlled circumstances and only by a trained technician.
Charging should only be done with an approved aviation grade charger. A
special plastic wrench (P/N 16979-001, $24.27 ea.) is used for the removal
of the vent caps. The intercell connectors are copper / nickel plated have
a
list price range from $12.93 to $8.75 each. The screws are $5.10 each. and
you will need both a "Bellville" and a flat washer for each terminal. And
you will need the appropriate temperature sensing system. In short you
have
some very expensive cells that should not be used for the application that
you suggest. DO NOT use them with homemade hardware. DO NOT experiment
with
them unless you get some training or consult a trained engineer. If you
decide to dispose of them please do so in a safe manner, depositing them
in
the garbage is not only illegal it is very dangerous. If you need any
further assistance please call me.
Best regards,
Tom Elkjer
254-741-5410
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:55 PM
To: Tom Elkjer
Subject: Re: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
I am using them to drive an electric car. They were sold as surplus. It
will be three units of one hundred each. If I can get the orginal buss
plates, screws etc.. Is there an automatic watering system. I would be
interested.I also need tools to take off the caps to add water and I heard
a
few drops of mineral oil in each cell has some benefit. Any information
about maintainance and charging as well as what kind of charger to use
would
be beneficial. I was thinking a plastic wrench or socket would be used to
take the caps off. . Make things safer. Thank you Tom. Lawrence
Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Elkjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
The BB600A/A is a military battery designed for use on military aircraft.
Documents on these batteries and their components are controlled and not
available to the general public. I don't quite understand what you are
doing. I assume that you have acquired some surplus military batteries.
Are
you going to try to assemble 3 units of 10 cells each into a subset to be
charged in parallel? And then assemble 10 subsets into 1 120VDC battery?
Why? What are you doing?
Best regards,
Tom Elkjer
254-741-5410
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:12 PM
To: Tom Elkjer
Subject: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
Is there still documentation on these batteries? I want to assemble them
into 120v strings. I will have three strings. Can I use one charger to
charge these in parallel? That will be 300 battery cells at 1040 pounds.
Thanks Tom. Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "EVList" <[email protected]>
Cc: "William Brinsmead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: BB600 screw size?
Does anyone have the specs on the BB600? I couldn't find on the Saft
website. I was wondering if it's 12V and >15ah and lightweight it might
be
good on my lawnmower. My 40 lb battery is a bit heavy, makes a 100lb
lawnmower shoving around on a 30% 1/2 acre grade. Is there one for sale?
Thanks, Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 9:34 AM
Subject: Fwd: BB600 screw size?
--- Steve Gaarder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Okay, I'm having a grand old time trying to figure out what kind of
screws
> are needed for a Saft BB600 NiCad. Someone said 10/32; they only go in
> for a turn or two.
I've had good luck with 10-32. But I did have to run a tap down first to
clean out the threads. I
didn't remove any metal, just cleaned out the crud. The tap ran in pretty
easily, but a bolt would
lock right up. This was the case with both Marathon and Saft NiCads. I'm
using .75" length bolt
with one flat washer and .125" thick bus bar.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This remains to be seen. Running 90Ah LiIons (actual useful
capacity is 70Ag and with my now mixed pack it is more like 50Ah) I can
tell you that for high voltage system around 100 real available Ah is
a minimum for more-less freedom in driving a light low violtage car;
that translates to around 12 kWh pack.
Today their 480Wh battery cost $825 you said, so 12kWh is $20.6k now.
So, as I said, remains to be seen, I wish them luck - this would mean
better battery choice for all of us.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Victor,
I read this a few days ago and called Valence to inquire about their
batteries. They are currently making batteries by hand in their plant in
Austin, TX. A single 12 volt battery with 40 Ahr will run you $825. That's
a little over $10K for batteries, charger and management system. However,
they are ramping up a facility in China to mass produce these new batteries
at a much reduced price. It looks like about $6K for a set of 12, possibly
lower by this time next year depending on market acceptance and volume. The
new batteries only weigh 13lbs each for a 40 Ahr, 12v battery and it has the
same dimensions as a standard 12 volt battery. Testing shows a substantial
increase in cycle life. Should last most people over 10 years and as much
as 15 years. They also have a better power curve and can withstand a much
deeper discharge than typical for lead acid.
The future is looking pretty bright. Even at $6K for 144 volt traction
pack, if it lasts the 10 - 15 year life span that makes it a far better cost
over lead acid.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: about PHEV
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/03/new_plugin_hybr_1.html
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Corvettes have and need very heavy, sturdy frames. Unlike
a steel-bodied Chevrolet, the body contributes practically
no strength or rigidity to the assembled car.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: corvette glider
Hello to All,
Carl Clifford wrote:
Not mine, just a heads-up
needs a lot but lightweight and cheap - somebody please convert a
Corvette!
Corvettes are anything but light. The unpopular '78 model you have posted
about ('75 thru '79
was a dark period for the Vette) weighs over 3100 lbs.! The 'only' light
Corvettes, ever, were
the very first ones, back in the early 50's when they were a more
reasonable size, had the
famous Blue Flame six cylinder, and weighed around 2500 lbs. Even this
amount of weight isn't
all that light compared to other cars that are far lighter. The first gen.
Corvettes are very
rare, super collectable, and go for $500,000 and up. Excluding these
earliest Corvettes, almost
any Corvette you can find, tips the scales at 3000+ lbs.
It's a common misconception, that because they have fiberglass body parts,
a Corvette is light.
Corvettes have always had a weight problem, and until the most recent
model, which is
thankfully smaller than it's predecessor, they have become porkier as the
years go on.
Pretty much any road test of a Corvette, even when done by testers who are
Vette fans,
mentions how heavy the Vette is. Statements like "It handles well for a
car this heavy",
or "If it were only 500 lbs. lighter, it would be even better".
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm kind of new at this so excuse me if I misstep...
I'm wondering what kind of batteries you are running. You said 90Ah LiIons
and a mixed pack? Are you mixing Lead Acid with your LiIons? If so, you
are really limiting your pack due to the lead acids.
>This remains to be seen. Running 90Ah LiIons (actual useful
>capacity is 70Ag and with my now mixed pack it is more like 50Ah) I can
>tell you that for high voltage system around 100 real available Ah is
>a minimum for more-less freedom in driving a light low violtage car;
>that translates to around 12 kWh pack.
>Today their 480Wh battery cost $825 you said, so 12kWh is $20.6k now.
>So, as I said, remains to be seen, I wish them luck - this would mean
>better battery choice for all of us.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Victor,
> I read this a few days ago and called Valence to inquire about their
> batteries. They are currently making batteries by hand in their plant in
> Austin, TX. A single 12 volt battery with 40 Ahr will run you $825.
That's
> a little over $10K for batteries, charger and management system. However,
> they are ramping up a facility in China to mass produce these new
batteries
> at a much reduced price. It looks like about $6K for a set of 12,
possibly
> lower by this time next year depending on market acceptance and volume.
The
> new batteries only weigh 13lbs each for a 40 Ahr, 12v battery and it has
the
> same dimensions as a standard 12 volt battery. Testing shows a
substantial
> increase in cycle life. Should last most people over 10 years and as much
> as 15 years. They also have a better power curve and can withstand a much
> deeper discharge than typical for lead acid.
>
> The future is looking pretty bright. Even at $6K for 144 volt traction
> pack, if it lasts the 10 - 15 year life span that makes it a far better
cost
> over lead acid.
>
> Jeff
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/03/new_plugin_hybr_1.html
>
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> I think the only things you really need to know are:
>
> (driving)
> Am I dropping a battery below 11 volts.
> (charging)
> Am I pushing a battery above 14.7 volts.
> Am I pushing a battery above 15.6 volts.
I think you can simplify this even further. At minimum, you want an
"idiot" light while driving that gives you a good/bad indication. This
is the least distracting way to alert the driver. That's what I made my
Batt-Bridge indicator for. Green if pack is "on" and no problems; red if
any cell is 1~2v different than the rest. This is a very simple device;
only 3 wires and 5 parts for the whole pack.
If you want a gauge, it should basically tell you the *difference*
between the correct value for the pack and what you actually have.
Voltage by itself is not very useful; it only indirectly indicates what
is going on. Knowing that a battery is 12.783 volts is meaningless
without knowing all the conditions.
> If I charge and one battery is green (14.7) and the rest are not I have
> an out of balance pack.
...or they are at different temperatures, or have different amphour
capacities, or are of different ages, or the charging current is too
high for the state of charge of the pack at the moment... AGMs
especially can have charging voltages all over the place as they near
full charge without it meaning anything.
Voltage gives you a *rough* idea what is going on, but you need to
include other data before making meaningful predictions.
> Actual voltages? Do you really need that cluttering up your mind
> while driving? One's eye can catch a light on a grid a lot easier
> than a bunch of lights going up and down.
I agree. Save the actual individual voltage indications for diagnostics
or for engineer-types that "just want to know".
When you just want relative indications (which battery is highest or
lowest; not actual voltages), the circuits become far simpler. This
usually means they are also more likely to work, and to actually get
built.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At the end of March I emailed Marc Kohler at Valence and he gave me some quick
quotes on battery packs using their 100 AH battery,
single 25 kWh pack $36k
100 20 kWh packs $20k each
500 20 kWh packs $15k each
1000 20 kWh packs $10k each
no idea how serious he was about the price, just thought I would pass it on.
Rush
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: about PHEV
> Victor,
> I read this a few days ago and called Valence to inquire about their
> batteries. They are currently making batteries by hand in their plant in
> Austin, TX. A single 12 volt battery with 40 Ahr will run you $825. That's
> a little over $10K for batteries, charger and management system. However,
> they are ramping up a facility in China to mass produce these new batteries
> at a much reduced price. It looks like about $6K for a set of 12, possibly
> lower by this time next year depending on market acceptance and volume. The
> new batteries only weigh 13lbs each for a 40 Ahr, 12v battery and it has the
> same dimensions as a standard 12 volt battery. Testing shows a substantial
> increase in cycle life. Should last most people over 10 years and as much
> as 15 years. They also have a better power curve and can withstand a much
> deeper discharge than typical for lead acid.
>
> The future is looking pretty bright. Even at $6K for 144 volt traction
> pack, if it lasts the 10 - 15 year life span that makes it a far better cost
> over lead acid.
>
> Jeff
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:59 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: about PHEV
>
>
> http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/03/new_plugin_hybr_1.html
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I couldn't find any reference to it
Q I've heard that the technology behind V28 is revolutionary.
Where else can these batteries be used?
A V28 technology is a revolutionary breakthrough. As the first lithium-ion
battery perfected for high current draw power tool applications, the battery
technology leads the way for use in appliances, lawn and garden
products, military applications, electric bicycles, potentially electric or
hybrid-electric vehicles and much more.
On page 5:
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/us/en/site.nsf/vwPromos/3674467D16F77F0A86256E4A0055C28C/$FILE/HDC_Newsletter_17.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Kohler and Pete Guggenheim provided me with the pricing info I got last
week on the 40Ah version. Same battery platform just a different Ah rating.
From: Rush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: about PHEV
At the end of March I emailed Marc Kohler at Valence and he gave me some
quick quotes on battery packs using their 100 AH battery,
single 25 kWh pack $36k
100 20 kWh packs $20k each
500 20 kWh packs $15k each
1000 20 kWh packs $10k each
no idea how serious he was about the price, just thought I would pass it on.
Rush
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: about PHEV
> Victor,
> I read this a few days ago and called Valence to inquire about their
> batteries. They are currently making batteries by hand in their plant in
> Austin, TX. A single 12 volt battery with 40 Ahr will run you $825.
That's
> a little over $10K for batteries, charger and management system. However,
> they are ramping up a facility in China to mass produce these new
batteries
> at a much reduced price. It looks like about $6K for a set of 12,
possibly
> lower by this time next year depending on market acceptance and volume.
The
> new batteries only weigh 13lbs each for a 40 Ahr, 12v battery and it has
the
> same dimensions as a standard 12 volt battery. Testing shows a
substantial
> increase in cycle life. Should last most people over 10 years and as much
> as 15 years. They also have a better power curve and can withstand a much
> deeper discharge than typical for lead acid.
>
> The future is looking pretty bright. Even at $6K for 144 volt traction
> pack, if it lasts the 10 - 15 year life span that makes it a far better
cost
> over lead acid.
>
> Jeff
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:59 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: about PHEV
>
>
> http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/03/new_plugin_hybr_1.html
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mr. Khaos..
for one thing on this list we mostly go by our REAL names....
And I like you love the old Mopars. But.. they are Really old really rusted
and really heavy compared to the Econ boxes that most if us run.
And there are reasons for that.
Weight and front drive trannys are the most eff drive train that we
can find. Some of the chain drive folks may argue with me... but, no self
respecting EVer runs a chain drive on the street for very long.
If I had a old Cuda... I would stuff a 440 in it, and forget the EV stuff
for a few years. These cars are made for power, and it's a crime to do
anything else with them.
Finding the right stuff for old Mopars was a hard effort 20 years ago when I
was running a 70 charger Big block... I am sure it's not much easier
nowdays.
Sacralige! if you ask me....
Take this from a guy who has a couple of NEDRA burn off awards, and a nasty
attitude when it comes to power and fun. I drive a EV that has traction
problems... daily.
You can find a better chassis to start a EV project than old Cuda's....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lord Khaos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: Build an EV from the ground up
> > Now that the New Beetle is nearing completion I am turning by attention
to
> > building an EV sports car from the ground up.
>
> being the hopless gearhead and Mopar fanatic that I am one car that seemed
> overlooked in that catagory is the early Barracudas. They are extremely
> light have ample room in the front and back for batterys, and many of the
> harder to find parts are easily upgraded to modern equipment with bolt on
> swaps. (front discs and modern brakes from later Darts). Would also make
a
> fine head turner, and the pre '67s can be found relitivly inexpensivly
> still.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
> Here's a great article on dropping 600 lbs from a car:
>
> http://www.hotrod.com/howto/113_0310_loseii/index1.html
Here's another good article on making a car weigh less:
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0208_scared/
A lot less..
http://sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0208scc_scared20_zoom.jpg
But only a 1000lbs less and it still weighs more then John's Datsun!
Think about a motorcycle.. Think about a rail car.. Now think about
these massive pieces of metal we drive to work everyday... Just
seems less then ideal to me.
I'm hoping whatever I build stays under 3,000 lbs...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:12 AM -0700 4-19-05, Madman wrote:
Mr. Khaos..
for one thing on this list we mostly go by our REAL names....
What were you saying Madman? We better ask Plasma Boy if he's heard
of Khaos.... :-) Check out his website, I suspect he's earned the
title.
And I like you love the old Mopars. But.. they are Really old really rusted
and really heavy compared to the Econ boxes that most if us run.
And there are reasons for that.
True the Cuda sounds like a tank on the track, what are they, close to 3000 lb?
Still, I really like his Van as a platform. Looks like a good base
for a utility EV.
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
> Let's say I have 10 6V Trojans and I want to see if they are all
> at the same voltage. If I use your Batt-Bridge concept and make 1
> circuit for the first 2 batteries (A and B) adjacent to each other,
> then make another Batt-Bridge and use it on batteries B and C,
> then make another Batt-Bridge and use it on batteries C and D and
> so forth?
The Batt-Bridge circuit doesn't require multiple units for multiple
batteries. ONE circuit tells you if ANY battery in the pack is more than
1~2v different than the rest. Of course, it doesn't tell you which
battery is off; you need to find that out some other way (multimeter,
etc.)
You can use multiple Batt-Bridges as you suggest but they really don't
do quite what you want. I've built versions to monitor 4 batteries, but
it is 4 times more complex, and still does not unambiguously tell you
exactly which battery is low.
Once you decide you "gotta" have wires to every battery, and measure
every voltage individually, there are better circuits. And no, you don't
need computers for every battery. I published a very simple circuit on
the EV list in July 2004 to do this.
Basically, it's the Batt-Bridge circuit with optocouplers replacing the
LEDs. At each battery there is a little PC board with 2 optocouplers, 3
resistors, and two zeners. The output phototransistors are wired to 3
pins of a flat cable in a matrix, so you could select the row/column of
whichever one you wanted to measure. For example, a 16-wire flat cable
has 8 rows and 8 columns; that's enough to read 64 LEDs. With two per
battery, you can handle 32 batteries. Which 3 wires you connect from
each battery board to the flat cable determines its address.
As presented, the two outputs per battery indicate "high voltage" (i.e.
>14.8v) and "low voltage" (i.e. <10.5v). You can obviously set them up for any
>limits you want. You could have a single Red and Green LED for an overall
>high/low limit, or separate LEDs for each battery so it will tell you *which*
>battery is high/low.
You can also use the two optos ratiometrically to get a rough analog
voltage indication if desired. The relative brightness of the red and
green LEDs on the dash indicate relative voltage. Or use a single
1-of-10 LED bargraph which sequentially scans all the battery voltages
fast enough so the dots become brightness levels (the brighter a
particular dot is, the more batteries are at that voltage).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
