EV Digest 4294
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: corvette glider
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Batt-Bridge monitor
by "Jamie Marshall \(GAMES\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Batt-Bridge monitor
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: corvette glider
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: BB600 screw size?
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Sealed Lead acid source
by Matt Holthausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Which insulation for battery box?(MIG)
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Milwaukee Electric Tool V28 Lithium Ion Tech Developed by Canada-based
E-One Moli Energy
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: about PHEV
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Which insulation for battery box?(MIG)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) FW: How motors and generators work.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Deep discharge charging smells on the Electravan.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Which insulation for battery box?(MIG)
by "golubcu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) Real name?, was Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
27) Re: TdS Report #8: Team Profile: Western Washington University:
Viking 23 and Viking 32
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
28) Re: TdS Report #8: Team Profile: Western Washington University: Viking
23 and Viking 32
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Energy content and ICE efficiency
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> For example, a Honda Insight at 1887 lbs.
That's pretty good all things considered but still maybe a bit heavy
considering the car is made out of aluminum...
http://www.allcarpictures.com/pictures/honda/insight-concept/honda-insight-concept-005.jpg
> A little Datsun 1200 sedan however, which stock weighed 1587 lbs.,
Now that is just flat out impressive. Clear back in the 1970's
building car's that weighed ~1500lbs. It's outrageous that nearly all
cars anymore weigh 3,000+ lbs.
> an early Barracuda weighs about the same as a '64 - 66 Mustang, at around
> 2500 - 2600 lbs
Now you got me curious because I don't even know off the top of my
head how much those cars weigh..
Let's see here...
1967-69 Plymouth Barracuda - Curb Weight - 3373 lbs (fastback 273 formula 'S')
http://www.ssmoparmuscle.com/cars/67_69cuda.htm
1970 Plymouth Hemi Cuda - Curb Weight - 3620 lbs
http://www.fast-autos.net/plymouth/plymouthhemicuda.html
1968 340 Barracuda - Curb Weight - 3,100 lbs
http://www.telusplanet.net/public/aarcuda/svamcaarta.htm
1964 - 1966 Barracuda - Curb Weight - 2725-2865 lbs
http://www.mindspring.com/~micritz/barahist.htm
1964 1/2 Mustang inline 6 - Curb Weight - 2,449 lbs
1979 Mustang 4 cylinder - Curb Weight - 2,431 lbs (Nice!)
http://www.netstang.com/base_model_weights.htm
1965 Mustang V8 - Curb Weight - 2980 lbs
http://members.tripod.com/fast_wheels/compar.htm
1966 Shelby Mustang GT-350 - Curb Weight - 2940 lbs
http://www.fast-autos.net/shelby/66shelbygt350.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> Corvettes are anything but light.
You know what's even more outrageous is the 2006 model.
Aluminum frame, magnesium front cradle, carbon fiber fenders and floor
boards. Car still weighs 3130 lbs!!!
Where does all the weight come from?!
http://www.chevrolet.com/corvettez06/
Here is the 2005 model with no fiberglass body on it:
http://www.autoextremist.com/detroit2004/companies/Chevrolet/CorvetteFrame.jpg
http://chevrolet.jbcarpages.com/Corvette/2005/Bilder/2005%20Chevrolet%20Corvette%20Chassis.jpg
2006:
http://www.forum-auto.com/uploads/200412/corvette_1103730850_corvette_z06_7___chassis.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How stable would the output of an opto-isolator be in this type of
situation? Would there be a large temperate differential (is that the
right term even?)?
I'm planning to put a itx-pc into my sparrow to use as an MP3 player,
and I'd like to also put in a web server so that I can tell if my car is
plugged in while I'm at my desk at work. (people have been un-plugging
my car on me, and I can't make the trip home without a full charge).
So since I'm going to have a pc in there, I thought it would be cool to
get some cheap usb DAQ gear, and I could be monitoring each battery all
the time. (plus getting spew from the Zilla, and monitoring whatever
else I feel like plugging into a daq).
The blocker is how to isolate the voltage of each battery from the DAQ.
I've considered opto-isolators, but I worry about them drifting with the
temperature. Good linear analog isolation on a chip seems to be
expensive. ($10 per battery?)
Thoughts?
-Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 1:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Batt-Bridge monitor
Rush wrote:
> Let's say I have 10 6V Trojans and I want to see if they are all
> at the same voltage. If I use your Batt-Bridge concept and make 1
> circuit for the first 2 batteries (A and B) adjacent to each other,
> then make another Batt-Bridge and use it on batteries B and C,
> then make another Batt-Bridge and use it on batteries C and D and
> so forth?
The Batt-Bridge circuit doesn't require multiple units for multiple
batteries. ONE circuit tells you if ANY battery in the pack is more than
1~2v different than the rest. Of course, it doesn't tell you which
battery is off; you need to find that out some other way (multimeter,
etc.)
You can use multiple Batt-Bridges as you suggest but they really don't
do quite what you want. I've built versions to monitor 4 batteries, but
it is 4 times more complex, and still does not unambiguously tell you
exactly which battery is low.
Once you decide you "gotta" have wires to every battery, and measure
every voltage individually, there are better circuits. And no, you don't
need computers for every battery. I published a very simple circuit on
the EV list in July 2004 to do this.
Basically, it's the Batt-Bridge circuit with optocouplers replacing the
LEDs. At each battery there is a little PC board with 2 optocouplers, 3
resistors, and two zeners. The output phototransistors are wired to 3
pins of a flat cable in a matrix, so you could select the row/column of
whichever one you wanted to measure. For example, a 16-wire flat cable
has 8 rows and 8 columns; that's enough to read 64 LEDs. With two per
battery, you can handle 32 batteries. Which 3 wires you connect from
each battery board to the flat cable determines its address.
As presented, the two outputs per battery indicate "high voltage" (i.e.
>14.8v) and "low voltage" (i.e. <10.5v). You can obviously set them up
for any limits you want. You could have a single Red and Green LED for
an overall high/low limit, or separate LEDs for each battery so it will
tell you *which* battery is high/low.
You can also use the two optos ratiometrically to get a rough analog
voltage indication if desired. The relative brightness of the red and
green LEDs on the dash indicate relative voltage. Or use a single
1-of-10 LED bargraph which sequentially scans all the battery voltages
fast enough so the dots become brightness levels (the brighter a
particular dot is, the more batteries are at that voltage).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jamie Marshall (GAMES) wrote:
How stable would the output of an opto-isolator be in this type of
situation? Would there be a large temperate differential (is that the
right term even?)?
I'm planning to put a itx-pc into my sparrow to use as an MP3 player,
and I'd like to also put in a web server so that I can tell if my car is
plugged in while I'm at my desk at work. (people have been un-plugging
my car on me, and I can't make the trip home without a full charge).
So since I'm going to have a pc in there, I thought it would be cool to
get some cheap usb DAQ gear, and I could be monitoring each battery all
the time. (plus getting spew from the Zilla, and monitoring whatever
else I feel like plugging into a daq).
The blocker is how to isolate the voltage of each battery from the DAQ.
I've considered opto-isolators, but I worry about them drifting with the
temperature. Good linear analog isolation on a chip seems to be
expensive. ($10 per battery?)
Thoughts?
How about a silicon relay on each battery post, wired up to a 4-16
binary selector? The output of the relays go to the A/D, and the
computer can send commands to the selector to pick a battery.
What A/D USB tool are you looking at?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> Carl Clifford wrote:
>
> > Not mine, just a heads-up
> > needs a lot but lightweight and cheap - somebody
> please convert a Corvette!
> >
>
> Corvettes are anything but light. The unpopular '78
> model you have posted about ('75 thru '79
> was a dark period for the Vette) weighs over 3100
> lbs.! The 'only' light Corvettes, ever, were
> the very first ones, back in the early 50's when
> they were a more reasonable size, had the
> famous Blue Flame six cylinder, and weighed around
> 2500 lbs. Even this amount of weight isn't
> all that light compared to other cars that are far
> lighter. The first gen. Corvettes are very
> rare, super collectable, and go for $500,000 and up.
> Excluding these earliest Corvettes, almost
> any Corvette you can find, tips the scales at 3000+
> lbs.
While it does weight 3100 lbs, have you seen what
the other sportscars weigh? Between 3600 and
4200lbs!!! Most around 4,000lbs!
Plus you can take about 1000lbs of ICE stuff out of
it to give you a 2100lb os so glider which isn't too
bad.
If you were to use some high powered li-ions or
nicads you could have a great looking, handling, fast
and reasonable range EV in 3000 lbs. Light by EV
standards!
Or put in 24 YTs/Orbitals and have less range and
be really fast in about 3400lbs or less!
Due to it good aero you should get good range at
speed compared to most EV conversions. And there is a
lot of lighter componants available for it if you
really want to be light.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> It's a common misconception, that because they have
> fiberglass body parts, a Corvette is light.
> Corvettes have always had a weight problem, and
> until the most recent model, which is
> thankfully smaller than it's predecessor, they have
> become porkier as the years go on.
> Pretty much any road test of a Corvette, even when
> done by testers who are Vette fans,
> mentions how heavy the Vette is. Statements like "It
> handles well for a car this heavy",
> or "If it were only 500 lbs. lighter, it would be
> even better".
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll send it to him, LR.
Bill Dennis
>Here are a few emails between me and Marathon technician. I had the manual
>but I can't find it now. Could someone that I sent the manual to please
>send Mark Hanson the manual as an attachment. Thanks LR.........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just added a couple more pictures to
http://www.ghiamonster.com/tasks.html showing all three motors mounted
to the adapter place mockups.
Against my better judgment I'm starting to get kind of excited here ;o)
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Marks
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
...can be found at http://www.ghiamonster.com/tasks.html .
The builders have done a nice job in installing rails for the battery
boxes to mount to near the rear of the vehicle. Towards the bottom of
the page are pictures of mockups of the adapter plates the motors and
bellhousing are to mount to.
Steve
The information contained in this email message is being transmitted to and is
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delete.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have found that alarm and surveillance companies often use batteries
similar to those in your mower, and they change them out after a few
years of being kept topped off, used only for power backup during
outages. I have a couple from a local company that seem to work okay
for odd jobs - maybe this could be a good surplus source for you. I got
mine for free.
Hope this helps.
-Matt Holthausen
On Apr 16, 2005, at 7:19 PM, Fortunat Mueller wrote:
My electric lawn mower needs new batteries. They are
little 12 V, 15 Ahr sealed lead acid batteries with
Spade terminals. The dimensions are something like 7 x
3 x 7.
I seem to remember someone on this list having a good
source for surplus batteries. Does anyone know a good
source for batteries that would meet this application
?
I found the power-sonic PS12180-F for $35 a piece at
batterystation.com. Is this a decent battery ? Anyone
know of a better price ?
thanks
~fortunat
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was going to build a battery box in a Suburu Station
Wagon. I was wondering which insulation material was
the best. My choices are fiberglass batt, cellulous
(recycle newspaper w/borax fire treatment) or foam.
I figure foam would be the easiest because it is
structural somewhat. But I was concerned about VOC,
off gassing and it can catch fire. Also I was
wondering about the long term effects of battery juice
on the foam.
The other two glass/cell would require a more
highly-structured frame. And are messy to work with.
Cellulose has some advantages with sound, when packed
tightly.
Also I wonder if that reflective foil would help any.
__________________________________
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Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Q I've heard that the technology behind V28 is revolutionary.
Where else can these batteries be used?
A V28 technology is a revolutionary breakthrough. As the first lithium-ion
battery perfected for high current draw power tool applications, the battery
technology leads the way for use in appliances, lawn and garden
products, military applications, electric bicycles, potentially electric or
hybrid-electric vehicles and much more.
Q How did Milwaukee develop the new lithium-ion technology?
Is it patented?
A Nine years ago, Milwaukee set out to identify the next level of power for
cordless tools. While it researched different designs on lithium and
lithium-
ion technologies, it also saw the shortcomings of those batteries in
how they are used in cell phones and other low amp-draw applications.
None of them worked well enough for the high demands of power tools.
Then, five years ago Milwaukee researchers started discussions with
Canada-based E-One Moli Energy and, with their combined efforts, were
able to perfect the 3.0 amp-hour, 4 volt cell used in the battery pack. The
Performance Optimization Circuitry plays a key roll in the success
of this cell, and Milwaukee has multiple patents pending to protect
the technology.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Milwaukee Electric Tool V28 Lithium Ion Tech. Plans for autos?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I couldn't find any reference to it
Q I've heard that the technology behind V28 is revolutionary.
Where else can these batteries be used?
A V28 technology is a revolutionary breakthrough. As the first lithium-ion
battery perfected for high current draw power tool applications, the
battery
technology leads the way for use in appliances, lawn and garden
products, military applications, electric bicycles, potentially electric
or
hybrid-electric vehicles and much more.
On page 5:
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/us/en/site.nsf/vwPromos/3674467D16F77F0A86256E4A0055C28C/$FILE/HDC_Newsletter_17.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff wrote:
> I'm kind of new at this so excuse me if I misstep...
> I'm wondering what kind of batteries you are running.
I'm under the impression he's using these:
http://www.metricmind.com/battery.htm
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm
>You said 90Ah LiIons and a mixed pack? Are you mixing Lead Acid with your
> LiIons?
I assume he meant new and old LiIons of the same type. Like he's
replaced a couple over time.
ultracaps:
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/ultracaps.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So if 336 volts of AGM's weigh 1,120 lbs, how much does 336 volts of
either ThunderSkys or Kokams weigh? How many of each brand will it
take to get 336 volts? Can we pull ~2000 amps from the pack?
How much do they cost...? O.o
Any chance of getting some Li.* batteries that don't need a BMS?
How about range estimates on the non lead batteries if we were
figuring about 30 - 40 miles on the lead? I was only set on 336 volts
AGM because that was all I could fit! Now we can take it to the
"limit" at 348!..
Otmar, any chance of making the Zilla handle 400+ volts nominal?
Victor, what will it take to make your ACRX a terror at the drag strip?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:42 PM 4/19/2005, you wrote:
I was going to build a battery box in a Suburu Station
Wagon. I was wondering which insulation material was
the best. My choices are fiberglass batt, cellulous
(recycle newspaper w/borax fire treatment) or foam.
The insulation need not be very thick. My favorite is the
corrugated plastic (polypropylene?) that they make campaign signs out of.
Use a couple of layers in perpendicular orientation.
Strong enough to take the weight of the batteries. Acid won't
touch it. Easy to cut to shape. Looks sharp and stays looking sharp.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:35 PM -0700 on 4/19/05, Otmar wrote:
Check out his website, I suspect he's earned the title.
I must have missed the link. I'd like to see it. What's the address? Thanks!
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Marks" <>
Against my better judgment I'm starting to get kind of excited here ;o)
Steve
yes it looks like its comming along , looks like a fast one :-) , been
awhile on those batteries , are you charging them once in a while .?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk A. Reinkens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I was also wondering how many kit car EVs had been done. ?
I just finnished one ,
http://www.grassrootsev.com/gazelle.htm
Base Vehicle: 1985 pinto,
1929 Mercedes Gazelle Kit Car body
Range: 20 miles at 50mph
and its for sale :-)
asking price: $28,000.00
Theres also a 959 Porsche kit for sale that I helped do a few years ago.
steve clunn >
Kirk,
Spokane, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 1:19 PM
Subject: Fwd: Build an EV from the ground up
--- "Don Cameron (New Beetle EV)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Although my associates have experience building cars from the ground
> up,
> utilizing suspension, steering, windows and some other components from
OEM, I
> would like to inquire if anyone out there has any good experience in
this area
> and can offer some suggestions.
Before reality set in, I was hoping to build my first ev from a kit car.
Here's a link to one that
I would liked to have used. Light, sporty and ready for an electric
drivetrain.
http://www.thunderranch.com/550.html
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found the following on another board and it is one of the best
explanations about how generators and motors work that I've come across,
so I thought I'd share it with y'all.
Cheers.
=========================================================================
When a magnetic field moves past a charged particle, it produces a force
on the particle. The force is at right angles to both the direction of
the field and the direction of its motion i.e. in the third dimension.
The force's strength is proportional to the product of the charge, the
field strength, and the speed of the field's motion. (In particular: The
"charge" term means that negative charges will be pushed one way, positive
charges the other.)
When a field and a wire (full of charged particles) move with respect to
each other, the charged particles are "pushed" down the wire by this
faraday effect force. The faster the field motion, the more force. The
stronger the field, the more force. The longer the wire (i.e. the more
total field "cutting" the wire), the more force.
Force on charged particles amounts to an induced voltage. (Another way to
look at it: If your wire is part of a closed circuit you'd have to apply
a voltage to make the charges hold still. Don't apply a voltage and they
accellerate without limit. So the force from the faraday effect induces a
voltage between the ends of the wire that were "cut" by the mag field.)
If the electrons don't move there's no energy exchanged. If they DO move
they deliver energy to the external circuit. Where does this energy come
from?
Answer: When electrons move they create a magnetic field. The magnetic
field created by the moving electrons produces a force - in the direction
that resists the motion of the wire through the magnetic field. You have
to input mechanical energy to push the wire. It's another aspect of the
Farady Effect: The charge moving in the wire relative to the magnetic
field experiences a force at right angles to both its motion and the mag
field. In this case, the force tries to deflect the charge against the
side of the wire - and the charge pulls the wire along with it.
(Deflecting the charge against the side of the wire produces an excess of
negative charges on one side and positive on the other. The moving charge
carrier is deflected and the non-moving one just sits there. But the
displaced charge attracts the undisplaced one, which is why the whole wire
moves rather than having the electrons launched off into space.)
(The appearance of the charge side-to-side is called the "Hall Effect".
It is used by some instruments to detect magnetic fields. It is also how
physicists finally figured out that the moving charge in a metal is the
one called "negative" - the opposite of Ben Franklin's guess: For a given
current positive charges would move one way, negative the other. And
they'd be displaced in opposite directions relative to their motion -
which ends up with the MOVING charge on the same side regardless of its
sense.)
Can we use that force for a different application? Sure! Take parts
organized in the same geometry as a generator. Run a current through a
wire in a field, it pushes the wire to the side. But instead of resisting
a motion, in this case it creates a motion, turning the rotor and applying
a force to an external object. Motors and generators are essentially the
same machine.
Just as a running generator acts as a motor to resist the force turning it
when an electrical load is placed on it, a running motor acts as a
generator resisting the power being fed to it when it is spinning and a
load is NOT placed on it. Motors are wired to have little resistive
losses. So when you first turn them on they may pull enormous currents -
and generate enormous force trying to start them spinning. As they speed
up, they generate a voltage (called "Back EMF") that opposes the voltage
being fed to them and causes the current to drop. Put a load on them,
they slow down, and pull more current to drive the load. (Again, energy
is conserved: You need electrical power to produce mechanical power. The
high current on startup corresponded to the energy being fed into spinning
up the inerta of the rotor.)
(Caveat: Some motors also generate the stationary magnetic field from an
electric current, rather than using permanent magnets. Depending on how
this is done, it may be difficult to create that current and thus get them
to act as generators. Similarly, some generators are connected in ways
that make them difficult to run as motors - usually because the power
can't be applied correctly without rewiring them, or because they provide
no feedback for telling the external circuit what position the wire is in
relative to the magnetic field so it can be fed current in the proper
direction.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, Apr 20, 2005 at 12:37:42AM -0500, Michael Hurley wrote:
> At 12:35 PM -0700 on 4/19/05, Otmar wrote:
>
> >Check out his website, I suspect he's earned the title.
>
> I must have missed the link. I'd like to see it. What's the address? Thanks!
http://disgruntledpunk.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So if 336 volts of AGM's weigh 1,120 lbs, how much does 336 volts of
> either ThunderSkys or Kokams weigh? How many of each brand will it
> take to get 336 volts? Can we pull ~2000 amps from the pack?
336V worth of AGMs don't have to weigh 1,120 lbs, you can do it for under
66 lbs:
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/cyc_b.asp?brandID=4
Of course this pack would be mostly useles in an EV, but then again so is
comparing batteries solely on the basis of weight vs voltage.
Sort of like trying to figure out how fast a car is based only on how much
the pistons weigh.
> Any chance of getting some Li.* batteries that don't need a BMS?
>
> How about range estimates on the non lead batteries if we were
> figuring about 30 - 40 miles on the lead? I was only set on 336 volts
> AGM because that was all I could fit! Now we can take it to the
> "limit" at 348!..
Well range would be either the same or different. Kind of depends on the
WattHours stored NOT the voltage.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I discharged the Electravan to below 118vdc before bounce back. 26 miles
with a 1.5 hour opp. charge. The specific gravity was about 1150. The
voltage just about bounced bace to 120(119.95vdc) The SOC meter read about
22%after bounce back( 0% as I drove into the garage) It drove well clear
down to 0% climbed a steep hill with just a couple of mph less than normal.
(A half mile from my house.) Something doesn't add up. Today I
experienced the two lowest SOC's I have ever had in this vehice and on the
first opp charge I got the nylon burning smell that you get when you melt
the end of a poly rope. I only find some wires that are routed through the
controller(charge wires) that are warm and evidence of previous melting of
some connectors. Can't seem to localize where it's comming from. No
connections to any battery are hot. Smells like something is melting bad.
Actully burning. Anybody know a bad spot in the 750 Electravan charge
wiring? Also shouldn't the SOC meter read 0% at 120vdc???
All in all the range of this Electravan is dissapointing. Probably only 22
miles or so on a charge. Probably time to put the cap between the pack and
the controller.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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--- Begin Message ---
<< So if 336 volts of AGM's weigh 1,120 lbs, how much does 336 volts of
either ThunderSkys or Kokams weigh? How many of each brand will it
take to get 336 volts? Can we pull ~2000 amps from the pack?
...
How much do they cost...? O.o
...
Any chance of getting some Li.* batteries that don't need a BMS? >>
Which AGMs are you looking at? 16Ah Genesis batteries like drag racers use weigh
378lbs for 28, capable of maxing a Z1K, but maybe not a Z2K. It appears that all
lithium chemistries need some form of BMS, and as to cost, "If you have to
ask..."! For non-drag-racing use, Thuder-Sky cells are the cheapest so far.
Milwaukee Tool's V28 battery runs $125 from Tool Authority (.com), but I wonder
about that designation - if it's 7 cells, it should be nominally 25.2-25.9V
(ion vs poly) and range from 21V or less fully drained to 29.4V fully charged.
Do these have different voltage ranges than the lithiums Victor sells (TS and
Kokam)? At 4Ah and 2# per pack, that's 20lbs and $1250/kwh.
Does the casing have the BMS or is it dependent on the charger for max voltage
cutoff?
Can't find any listing of peak amp rate - anyone know what it is?
Wonder if we can get just the individual cells - the size and weight looks like
26650 cells (common, but not as common as 18650's), and these typically average
3.2Ah/90gm each; if they were the new VT cells from SAFT, they'd be only 2Ah
each, capable of 25C discharges, and wouldn't have been developed by Milwaukee
Tool at all (unless they funded some of SAFT's R&D costs).
In comparison, http://www.batterieswholesale.com/lithium_battery.htm as a source
works out to 17lbs and $1925/kwh with a 7C constant/10C peak discharge.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is one motor turning the opposite direction of the other two?
Are you leaving slots in the mounting holes to allow the motor timing to be
changed?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 4:50 PM
Subject: RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
> Just added a couple more pictures to
> http://www.ghiamonster.com/tasks.html showing all three motors mounted
> to the adapter place mockups.
>
> Against my better judgment I'm starting to get kind of excited here ;o)
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Steve Marks
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:58 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
> ...can be found at http://www.ghiamonster.com/tasks.html .
>
> The builders have done a nice job in installing rails for the battery
> boxes to mount to near the rear of the vehicle. Towards the bottom of
> the page are pictures of mockups of the adapter plates the motors and
> bellhousing are to mount to.
>
> Steve
>
>
> The information contained in this email message is being transmitted to
and is intended for the use of only the individual(s) to whom it is
addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you
are hereby advised that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error,
please immediately delete.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
cowtown wrote:
> Which AGMs are you looking at?
I was looking at the Orbitals. Considered the Optimas and Deka
Intimadators. I wonder why Optima can't compete on price? Higher
profit margins? More overhead? They do have extensive marketing to
pay for..
> 16Ah Genesis batteries
Street range would be lacking though.. I'd like to drive it to the
track and back(plus everywhere else..).
After watching this video:
http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
Has someone taken a Thundersky and a Kokam and crushed them and poked
holes in them to see if anything happens or if they are benign?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I forgot to mention that I was going to make a sealed box with at
least R-15 all around. I was thinking about using those hydro caps.
I want to make this usable at -40 degrees in Alaska.
Thanks
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> At 09:42 PM 4/19/2005, you wrote:
> >I was going to build a battery box in a Suburu Station
> >Wagon. I was wondering which insulation material was
> >the best. My choices are fiberglass batt, cellulous
> >(recycle newspaper w/borax fire treatment) or foam.
>
> The insulation need not be very thick. My favorite is the
> corrugated plastic (polypropylene?) that they make campaign signs
out of.
> Use a couple of layers in perpendicular orientation.
>
> Strong enough to take the weight of the batteries. Acid
won't
> touch it. Easy to cut to shape. Looks sharp and stays looking
sharp.
>
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> 16Ah Genesis batteries
>
>Street range would be lacking though.. I'd like to drive it to the
>track and back(plus everywhere else..).
That's the trade off with electrics in general, but if you want to drive to the
track, then race, you'd do best with as small a pack as can supply the peak
current and get you at least 1/4mi, towing a trailer filled with floodeds to
get there (assuming you're not racing *to* the track), or a generator, or both.
One step farther in that direction, if you used a controller (e.g.- Zilla) and
dc/dc converter with wide input range, would be to run the highest possible
voltage at the track, but disconnect it for long trips and run a lower
voltage/higher capacity trailer.
>After watching this video:
>
>http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
>
>Has someone taken a Thundersky and a Kokam and crushed them and poked
>holes in them to see if anything happens or if they are benign?
>
Probably only those who don't have to ask the cost. I know I saw pics of stress
tests on the Thunder-Sky website, haven't seen any for Kokams, but I'll bet
they've done some, too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< Mr. Khaos..
for one thing on this list we mostly go by our REAL names.... >>
According to his web site, it's just Khaos (no Mr.), but at least he doesn't
call hisself 'Tater Salad'.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought I might have missed something the first time I read this report, so I
went back again to see:
<<<Viking 23: Specifications
Electric Drive to Front Wheels
UQM 47 HP (12 kW continuous 32 kW peak power brushless Dc motor utilizes
Neodymium permanent magnets and water cooling for both motor and controller.
System efficiency = 96%
...
Biodiesel Engine to the Rear Wheels
Diahatsu Charade 1 liter 3 cylinder 43 HP turbo-charged Biodiesel engine and
5-speed manual transaxle driving the rear axles which have air-cooled
overrunning clutches to minimize system friction when operating in ZEV mode on
electric front drive only.
..
Dimensions: Length = 157''; Width = 70''; Height = 44''
Weight of entire car = 1901 lbs.
Windshield: Acura NSX
Racing fuel tank capacity = 7.5 gal.
...
Performance:
- Estimated efficiency -- 50 mpg city 50 mpg highway
- Top speed more than 100 mph >>>
[Biodiesel is suppose to be about the same energy content as petro diesel]
I was talking to a co-worker who drives a diesel Jetta and averages 55mpg
overall, but the Viking 23 is lighter, smaller, and slicker. You could tear out
the gas engine/battery pack/IMA and associated controls from an Insight, put a
larger diesel engine than the Viking uses, and still get better mileage; what
explains the lack of efficiency you'd expect from so much attention to detail?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Estimated MPG.
It is also a >10 year old diesel technology. The TDIs from ~1998 to
present are a much more advanced engine. And they may or may not have
their hybrid system control nailed down. They are students, so I
suspect not.
Seth
On Apr 20, 2005, at 6:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I thought I might have missed something the first time I read this
report, so I
went back again to see:
<<<Viking 23: Specifications
Electric Drive to Front Wheels
UQM 47 HP (12 kW continuous 32 kW peak power brushless Dc motor
utilizes
Neodymium permanent magnets and water cooling for both motor and
controller.
System efficiency = 96%
...
Biodiesel Engine to the Rear Wheels
Diahatsu Charade 1 liter 3 cylinder 43 HP turbo-charged Biodiesel
engine and
5-speed manual transaxle driving the rear axles which have air-cooled
overrunning clutches to minimize system friction when operating in ZEV
mode on
electric front drive only.
..
Dimensions: Length = 157''; Width = 70''; Height = 44''
Weight of entire car = 1901 lbs.
Windshield: Acura NSX
Racing fuel tank capacity = 7.5 gal.
...
Performance:
- Estimated efficiency -- 50 mpg city 50 mpg highway
- Top speed more than 100 mph >>>
[Biodiesel is suppose to be about the same energy content as petro
diesel]
I was talking to a co-worker who drives a diesel Jetta and averages
55mpg
overall, but the Viking 23 is lighter, smaller, and slicker. You could
tear out
the gas engine/battery pack/IMA and associated controls from an
Insight, put a
larger diesel engine than the Viking uses, and still get better
mileage; what
explains the lack of efficiency you'd expect from so much attention to
detail?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When talking about ICE vs EV comparisons, I thought it would be good to
establish some kwh numbers for liquid fuel. Both gasoline and diesel values are
all over the map, which can also be due to seasonal changes in formulation.
Gasoline runs 108-117K BTUs, while diesel is 124-139K BTUs. Coming up with an
overall average:
Diesel = 130K BTUs/gal = 38.1kwh equivalent
Gasoline = 114K BTUs/gal = 33.4kwh equivalent
CNG = 103K BTUs/ccf (100cf)= 30.2kwh equivalent
Propane = 91K BTUs/gal = 26.7kwh equivalent
As an example: If a gas Metro gets 50mpg at 50mph and needs 10hp/7.5kw to
maintain that speed (the only road hp number I remember), it's running at over
22% efficiency.
Data for small diesels like Yanmar or Kubota shows they use 185-205gm/hp-hr,
diesel fuel weighs ~3250gm/gal, giving 11.9-13.2kwh/gal, for 31-34% efficiency.
Replace the Metro's engine with one of these, and the same 50mph gives 79-88mpg.
--- End Message ---
