EV Digest 4300
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: about PHEV
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: about PHEV
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Need to find - 250volt / 40amp / 12hr timed charger ? Sources
?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Valence, etc.
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Valence, etc.
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: about PHEV
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Electric NASCAR fans
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Valence tread
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Need to find - 250volt / 40amp / 12hr timed charger ?
Sources ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Need to find - 250volt / 40amp / 12hr timed charger ? Sources ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: treadmill motor - pulley
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Batt-Bridge monitor
by "Jamie Marshall \(GAMES\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: motor connections
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Problem with T-Rex throttle setting
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: about PHEV
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Electric NASCAR fans
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Fwd: Electric NASCAR fans
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Batt-Bridge monitor
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Problem with T-Rex throttle setting
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Andrea Bachus Kohler wrote:
I do not feel I ever "put down" other companies.
You didn't directly, your company's movie did.
All I did was point
out some grey areas in their data or communications about safety. Did I
ever suggest that anyone buy one battery over another?
Of course you have suggested that.
I think you would automatically
discount my input, thinking it was coming from a "company man" rathter
than from a person who has direct and indirect experience with the
things I write.
That is exactly because it became standard for the companies to lie
(I should say to tell info benefiting their stock).
Sorry, Mark, this has nothing to do with you personally.
But if you stand behind your company's PR practices (as an employee or
in private), unfortunately you'll get painted with the same paint,
like it or not and, fair or not.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Because each rated only at 2.5V max and electrolyte used inside
decomposes at the voltages not much above that.
So you have to connect them in series to match the max pack voltage
they will ever see.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Jeff and Diane wrote:
I like the capacitor use. I've been doing a lot of reading about LiIon bats
and it all says they can't dump the power like lead... On the other hand,
they have superior performance for overall power/weight and extended life.
I guess the initial output of $$$$$ would be worth it in the long run. And
if you have a need like the ACRX for raw off the line power, I don't think
anything will give you what capacitors will.
I have one question though... Why so many? Isn't there a larger capacitor
that you could have used that would have reduced the complexity?
Jeff "newbie"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BRUSA NLG512-TA or -SA or -WA
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Steve Hawkins wrote:
Does anyone know new or used sources for a charger with the following
specs?
- 250 volt DC output
- 40 amps
- 12 hour manual charge timer
- 240 single phase source
I have a 1993 Dodge TeVan with Eagle Picher Nife (nickel-iron)
batteries. I haven't been able to get the stock on-board charge to work
since I purchased the vehicle a year ago, and no one knows how to repair
it.
As far as I can tell I am the only remaining Nife TeVan trying to
operate.
I need to find a stand alone charger replacement asap.
Suggestions appreciated, thx,
Steve
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Basically when the Indians and Chinese start mass-producing Li powered
EVs.
Li already has the energy capacity and light weight.
Research is going on to improve the charge and discharge rates.
(Over 100C discharge in the lab a year or two back with nano-something
electrodes.
Kokam currently have a RC model pack that handles 20C.)
We just need the economies of scale to bring the prices down.
Will they every be cheaper than lead acid?
Who knows?
With mass production I believe they will be better VALUE than lead acid.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 22 April 2005 4:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Valence, etc.
So when are these batteries(or any Li.*) going to be cost competitive
to lead acid? Will we ever be able to pull AGM type current draws
from them?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting price question,
we was talking about strange starting price on Ev business with a friend
last week(for all the parts in fact), let me try to explain (translate) my
point of view here:
The automotive industry want to launch another car (ICE), they design, test
then sell it.
Initial price is not the car value, the company can't put the first 1000
batch at $100 000 each, so they fix a commercial strategie:
our car price target is for "this" market, others brand are sold $XXX, we
want to have 1/5 of this market fast so we fix our new car at $XXX-1 and
wait until we win money (fast in fact because this is the way to win money
and they are aware of and specialist in the wining money business...)
Now they make EV (they try...or seems to...):
Initial price similar to ICE version or even cheaper to open the market ?
NO !
instead they fix high initial price, why ?
are they scared to sell just a few ?
maybe but even selling only 10 000 EV initial price should be lower than
what we had seen, so where is the problem ?
we all know why...so let's shift to batteries
The batteries are expensive: yes !
Lead is mass producted and so cheap, ok but nicad is also mass producted,
Saft and others have production lines for them BUT they don't want to sell
cheap, they want us to pay the added value, nicad is better than lead acid
so you pay for it period.
Lithium technologie is way better BUT there is a problem, you have 4 X nicad
capacity for 2/3 weight, 1/2 volume, no servicing, so it's now 10X lead
price, impossible to start an EV business with such batteries price, period.
Noboby is selling at price it should be to launch EV market !!!
THIS IS THE PROBLEM, they all want big money fast ! but they are wrong !
My wife and my son have visited again our city zoo today, she explained a
man was selling orange juice, it was a sunny day and nobody was buying from
him, why ? 3,5euros/glass !
i don't know orange juice glass price in US but here it's more like 1,5
euros and at such price the man would have win lots of money today.
remember my automotive exemple,
Why we shouldn't see Lithium at same $/ah price than nicad/nimh, they are
not more complicated to produce, in fact material cost less.
So what ?
i think batteries company are making a big mistake, specialy which who are
producing Ev batteries, they should give better price to launch their
product and help EV market in same time THEN grow up the price.
just my 1wh
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 8:15 PM
Subject: Valence, etc.
> So when are these batteries(or any Li.*) going to be cost competitive
> to lead acid? Will we ever be able to pull AGM type current draws
> from them?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush,
Hey, I am all for those admirable, noble, and righteous virtues of "honesty
and integrity", but I also think that sometimes they should be balanced with
a modicum of tact, diplomacy, discretion, and respect, especially if you
feel that the way you have to project your own integrity is by calling into
question the integrity of others.
You certainly haven't offended *me* in any way, so no offense is taken. I
welcome and respect you and your opinions and your right to express them.
Best regards,
Charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: about PHEV
> Charles and anybody else
>
> If in some way I have offended you by expressing my opinion, then
> I apologize, but not for my opinion, which I still hold, despite your
> lengthy post. I apologize for offending you. I don't in any way want
> to start a flame war. My objective is to communicate facts and
> communicate them with honesty and integrity.
>
>
> Rush Dougherty
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: about PHEV
> Hi Rush,
>
> There is only one thing I would concur with your post in which you make
> this
> personal attack on Marc Kohler's ethics, and that is that you are
> confused.
> You are missing some very simple and obvious things. First, let me repeat
> what Marc said -- the part that you are so critical of -- and add my own
> emphasis, for effect:
>
> "... unlike ALMOST EVERY OTHER BATTERY ON THE MARKET today, I've heard
> that
> you actually get out the AH rating (or more) on the Valence units."
>
> Look at what I have capitalized, which is the operative phrase: "almost
> every other battery on the market". Yes, of course Marc works for
> Valence,
> has personally tested Valence batteries, knows their specs inside out, and
> thus he can obviously speak first hand, in the first person about THEM
> (i.e.
> Valence batts), without having to say "I've heard ...". But Marc does not
> work for Thunder-Sky, Kokam, Saft, or Electrovaya, and he has not
> PERSONALLY
> tested any of the lithium-ion batteries from those companies. BUT ... I
> believe that some of his customers HAVE done so, i.e. they have tested
> both
> Valence li-ions and li-ions from other manufacturers, AND they have
> REPORTED
> back to Marc that they have gotten the full Ah rating out of Valence's
> li-ions but have not gotten the full Ah rating out of some of those other
> manufacturers' li-ions. Therefore, strictly speaking, Marc is being
> semantically correct and accurate by saying that "unlike almost every
> other
> battery on the market", he has "HEARD that you actually get out the Ah
> rating (or more) the Valence units."
>
> The second point I would like to make about your "confusion" (your own
> self-characterization, not my characterization of you) is that it is no
> secret to most people on this list that Marc Kohler works for Valence. I
> don't know how long you've been on this list. I myself am a relative
> newcomer here, having only been on the list for about 9 months or so. But
> many people who have been here for a while know that Marc works for
> Valence.
> I think you're missing something about the nature of this list and who is
> on
> it. There are many suppliers to the EV business that are on this list, or
> to be more accurate, I should say that some of the employees of these
> suppliers are on this list. But they are here not as spokespersons
> speaking
> officially and authoritatively for their companies. Quite the opposite
> actually, they are here as individuals, and they often qualify their
> remarks
> by making the point that they are expressing their own individual opinions
> which do not necessary (and often actually DON'T) reflect their company's
> opinion or official policy. And to be extra careful to make that
> distinction and Chinese Wall of separation between an individual's
> opinions
> and those of his employer, some listers go to the extent that Marc does of
> not posting from his work email address but rather using his home email
> address. That is just a smart thing to do career-wise, if one wants to
> keep
> one's job, because that way no one can misconstrue anything Marc writes as
> being his employer's opinion and potentially get Marc into trouble at work
> or with the company's shareholders if someone sees something posted on a
> forum somewhere. Now if you're the president or CEO of your company,
> that's
> one thing, and at that level you ARE the one who makes company policy and
> can speak authoritatively for your company, because YOUR opinion pretty
> much
> IS the company's opinion. But Marc is not the president or CEO of Valence
> and neither is his immediate boss. So Marc has to be careful in that
> regard, which indeed he is. But all of what I have just described is
> actually what makes this list so valuable -- because all of these highly
> knowledgeable experts and industry insiders are here on this list to share
> their knowledge and opinions with us, AND, more importantly, they can do
> so
> freely as individuals without the usual corporate constraints. So they
> can
> speak much more freely and openly than their companies ever would or do.
> Now, does that mean that these people are somehow able to completely
> detach
> themselves from their paychecks and be completely unbiased here on this
> list? Of course not. This is a pretty sophisticated and intelligent
> bunch
> of people on this list. I don't think there's anyone here who would be so
> naive to think something like that. So yes, of course Marc has a vested
> interest, and most people here already know that, and so we all take that
> into consideration when reading his posts, just like we do with people
> like
> Rich and Ot about the merits of DC systems and their superior power, and
> Victor on the merits of AC systems and their excellent energy efficiency
> and
> a whole range of things like that. Many of these people here have
> something
> to sell. We all know that. But what distinguishes all these people I
> have
> mentioned (and many others on this list) is that despite their obvious
> vested interests, they all make a big effort and go a long way towards
> being
> *relatively* balanced in their views and are very helpful and generous
> with
> their time and advice to others. So I really don't think it's fair to
> impugn Marc Kohler's ethics here.
>
> Finally the last thing I would like to say is that I gather from your
> recent
> posts that you must have contacted Marc Kohler and asked for price quotes
> on
> Valence's li-ions, which he obviously gave you, because I see that you
> then
> turned around and posted his price quote virtually verbatim on this list.
> I'm not criticizing that. Actually I think it's great that you did so,
> because all of us are curious and want to know these things and keep up
> with
> price changes, etc. So I was glad that you did that. But if you then
> turn
> around and criticize this same person who just gave you a price quote and
> impugn his ethics in public on the entire list for all to see, well, I
> don't
> what EV project you're working on, but that's certainly not a very good
> way
> to try to start off a good professional working relationship with one of
> your key suppliers (probably your most important supplier, actually). If
> you are going to do an EV project using an advanced battery chemistry, you
> will have to work very closely with your battery supplier for many months,
> and it would certainly be in your best interests not to insult him in
> front
> of the whole community here like that.
>
> Well, good luck with your project.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles Whalen
>
> Note: I do not work for Valence, am not selling their batteries, and do
> not
> own any stock or options in the company or otherwise have any financial
> interests in Valence.
>
>
>
> On Thursday, April 21, 2005 1:23 AM, Rush wrote:
>
>>
>> Marc,
>>
>> I'm confused, didn't we just have an email correspondence? Didn't you
>> sign
>> it
>>
>> Marc Kohler
>> Business Development Manager
>> Vehicular Systems
>> Valence Technology, Inc.
>> Office (512) 527-2933
>> Fax (512) 527-2910
>> Cell (512) 560-0753
>> www.valence.com
>>
>> If so, then why are you saying, "I've heard that you actually get out the
>> AH rating (or more) on the Valence units". You are an employee of
>> Valence,
>> correct? Don't you think you should identify yourself as an employee
>> instead of saying "I've heard... " and promote your company. Or as
>> Business Development Manager do you only 'hear' things and are not privy
>> to actual specs of your product.
>>
>> In your previous post about the lithium safety thread you certainly do
>> put
>> down the other companies, again without identifying yourself as an
>> employee of Valence. While I admit your product may be safer, I would
>> think that from an ethical point of view you would identify yourself as
>> an
>> employee of one of the companies you are discussing.
>>
>> Rush
>> Tucson AZ
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: about PHEV
>>
>>
>>> Actually, since the nominal voltage is 12.8V, the U1 offers over 512Wh.
>>> And
>>> unlike almost every other battery out on the market today, I've heard
>>> that
>>> you actually get out the AH rating (or more) on the Valence units.
>>>
>>> Marc Kohler
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The part that bothers me is that they claim most of the Electrical
Components are listed as "New, never used". It seems odd that it would be
sold that complete without actually running. The question is what problem
stopped them actually running it.
It would make a heck of a go-kart. You could get sponsors to help fund it
by going to EV and car events with their stickers plastered all over
it. As a "Stock Car" it would look more natural then a plain paint job. :-)
Professional engineering? maybe the frame, but I
wouldn't call tie wraps and a piece of plywood a very
good heatsink. It is a nice concept however.
Electric-Powered, Half-Scale Stock Car
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just in case I wanted to make sure Mark and all understands that
there was no personal attacks on him. I respect this man very much.
I DO have respect for Valence achievement as well.
I have bid disrespect for how it was presented - it leaves
a bad taste. And Mark apparently has no problem with Valence's
PR practices. That is OK with me.
I again wanted to make sure no individual offenses were
expressed or implied. I apologize if the tread may have
given that impression.
1. I would certainly do business with Mark if needed and consult
with him as an engineer if I have battery questions - will be
happy to talk numbers with him.
2. I may never do business with Valence - it depends.
3. I want to emphasize BIG distinction between 1 and 2.
With great respect,
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer wrote:
> Sounds pretty much like a PFC-50 (or -30 if you cut the current
> down a bit).
Could be; but I'd use it with an isolation transformer to be sure. If
the stock charger was isolated, there would have been no reason for
Dodge to provide sufficient insulation between the vehicle's propulsion
system and ground to survive normal line transients, which can easily
hit thousands of volts.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Hawkins wrote:
> Does anyone know new or used sources for a charger with the following
> specs?
>
> - 250 volt DC output
> - 40 amps
> - 12 hour manual charge timer
> - 240 single phase source
>
> I have a 1993 Dodge TeVan with Eagle Picher Nife (nickel-iron)
> batteries. I haven't been able to get the stock on-board charge
> to work since I purchased the vehicle a year ago, and no one
> knows how to repair it.
>
> As far as I can tell I am the only remaining Nife TeVan trying to
> operate. I need to find a stand alone charger replacement asap.
The NiFe batteries themselves are fairly easy to charge. Like
lead-acids, they tolerate charger abuse relatively well. But I do not
know if Dodge has put in any safety/secret/interlock systems that might
prevent you from charging. You'd have to work around any such issues, of
course.
What is wrong with the present charger? What exactly is it? Naturally it
is an "orphan" and they supplied no documentation; but that does not
mean it can't be reverse-engineered to figure out how it's supposed to
work, and what it wrong with it. Even if it can't be fixed with "genuine
Dodge parts" (because there aren't any), we can probably find modern
substitutes to get it working.
You can also rig up a temporary charger with a big variac and isolation
transformer, bridge rectifier, and voltage and current meters. I believe
they are Eagle-Picher batteries; they can provide details on the
charging algorithm.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
I believe it is possible. The tip of the shaft is
threaded, but the rest of it (about 24mm) is not and
measured 17mm diameter. No key though.
I think 17mm is a very stardard shaft diameter for
automotive pulleys.
Ed Ang
--- Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The motor mentioned earlier:
>
>
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005040623580603&item=10-2167
>
> Looks great, especially at $10! Could a more
> standard pulley be put on
> this shaft? I understand the shaft is threaded - I
> don't imagine it has
> a keyway?
>
> -Ryan
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great
> prices
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd like to avoid using a relay system because I want the isolation to
happen right at the battery, keeping traction voltage isolated to inside
the battery box. I'd be worried about a relay shorting out and frying
my PC (or frying me).
I'm looking at USB based low-cost DAQs like this:
http://www.measurementcomputing.com/pmd.html
-Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 1:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Batt-Bridge monitor
Jamie Marshall (GAMES) wrote:
> How stable would the output of an opto-isolator be in this type of
> situation? Would there be a large temperate differential (is that the
> right term even?)?
>
> I'm planning to put a itx-pc into my sparrow to use as an MP3 player,
> and I'd like to also put in a web server so that I can tell if my car
is
> plugged in while I'm at my desk at work. (people have been
un-plugging
> my car on me, and I can't make the trip home without a full charge).
>
> So since I'm going to have a pc in there, I thought it would be cool
to
> get some cheap usb DAQ gear, and I could be monitoring each battery
all
> the time. (plus getting spew from the Zilla, and monitoring whatever
> else I feel like plugging into a daq).
>
> The blocker is how to isolate the voltage of each battery from the
DAQ.
> I've considered opto-isolators, but I worry about them drifting with
the
> temperature. Good linear analog isolation on a chip seems to be
> expensive. ($10 per battery?)
>
> Thoughts?
How about a silicon relay on each battery post, wired up to a 4-16
binary selector? The output of the relays go to the A/D, and the
computer can send commands to the selector to pick a battery.
What A/D USB tool are you looking at?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, does this hold true if you're down under in Australia or Brazil ?
John
> So for the 1231C, you'd wire in either FWD or REV, depending on the
> direction that your tranny needed to turn (e.g., Honda turns one way
> and
> other manufactures turn the other way)?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Multi turn pots???
That would make the problem worse.
The Raptors looks for a reflected pulse from the throttle coils as a
variable iron core inductor. A slight oxidation or corosion in the Pot
sensor leads changes the shape of the reflected wave.
This changes the setpoints a little. But... the pot doesn't wear, and you
never have open scratchy pots. This is truley a better throttle sensor than
a PB6 or wound wire pot. Nothing rubs the wires on every stroke.
The last I heard the Alltrax controllers have 22 different pot
programming flavors. Damon has the select a throttle sensor down to a
Science.
Multi turn ports don't weather very well. compared to a Steel slug in a
plastic tube inside a 200 turn coil.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: Problem with T-Rex throttle setting
> Hi,
>
> If the T-Rex controllers are set the same way as the Raptor controllers
> (and I believe they are), then Robert's instructions (quoted below) are
> mostly correct.
>
> After *disconnecting* the motor, you power up the controller, "floor"
> the accelerator pedal, and turn the "MAX THR" potentiometer
> counterclockwise until the Yellow LED turns off. Once it is off (or if
> it is already off), turn the potentiometer clockwise until the Yellow
> LED _just_ turns on. Release and floor the accelerator again, looking
> for the yellow LED to light, to verify the setting is correct.
>
> Then power down the controller, allow the capacitors to drain, and
> reconnect the motor.
>
> If after doing this you still don't see the Yellow LED light up when you
> are driving the car and flooring the accelerator pedal, it means that
> you are not getting wide open throttle because the controller is stuck
> in current limit mode on the motor side.
>
> Also, when I was using a Raptor in my Jeep, I noticed that the MAX THR
> setting changed by itself a few times, which I guess was due to the
> vibrations from driving the vehicle (shame the Raptors didn't use
> multi-turn potentiometers for these settings). Something to look out
for...
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > First you disconnect the motor wire from the controller. Then you
> > floor your go pedal. And this is the part I forget, There are two
> > pots on the controller, You turn one all the way on and the red or
> > yellow led comes on, you then back off the pot till the led goes out.
> > Robert Salem
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rush....
Please stop attacking a solid list member.
We all know Mark and his current employer.
And are really glad to have him on this list keeping the Lion Claims in the
real ball park.
Try not to attack with such aggressiveness...
There is no reason to cross examine everything he says.
Getting nasty in the first few weeks your name appears on this list is a
great way to get Kicked off it.
Sheath your sword or leave.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro.
My opinions ARE corporate policy.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: about PHEV
>
> Marc,
>
> I'm confused, didn't we just have an email correspondence? Didn't you sign
it
>
> Marc Kohler
> Business Development Manager
> Vehicular Systems
> Valence Technology, Inc.
> Office (512) 527-2933
> Fax (512) 527-2910
> Cell (512) 560-0753
> www.valence.com
>
> If so, then why are you saying, "I've heard that you actually get out the
AH rating (or more) on the Valence units". You are an employee of Valence,
correct? Don't you think you should identify yourself as an employee instead
of saying "I've heard... " and promote your company. Or as Business
Development Manager do you only 'hear' things and are not privy to actual
specs of your product.
>
> In your previous post about the lithium safety thread you certainly do put
down the other companies, again without identifying yourself as an employee
of Valence. While I admit your product may be safer, I would think that from
an ethical point of view you would identify yourself as an employee of one
of the companies you are discussing.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:02 PM
> Subject: Re: about PHEV
>
>
> > Actually, since the nominal voltage is 12.8V, the U1 offers over 512Wh.
And
> > unlike almost every other battery out on the market today, I've heard
that
> > you actually get out the AH rating (or more) on the Valence units.
> >
> > Marc Kohler
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I whole hardly dissagree Rod
We broke them with solid torque.
I have a couple of them right here.
No, the numbers I came up with, was we were making 4800 lbs of stress
minumum on the belts. FT and the Goodyear Rep were lead to believe that 1300
Ftlbs was what they were good for.
Ftlbs of torque and Lbs of stress are two very different data points. Plus
it's rather clear that we did not have the minimum teeth count to handle the
torque on the driven pulleys.
Stick with Chain or Steel gear sets if you are going over 200 lbs of
torque.
Otmar punches 400 ft lbs through these belts, But his driven is 6 inches in
diameter, and he has the 14 mm pitch teeth.
Lets keep the BS to a Minimum Rod... Even with a solid bearing setup We
still blew the belts at about 1/2 the amps we could make. That would be
about 1/3 the torque we could make.
You might want to ask FT... I don't think he Buys this line this year. Last
year maybe...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
> Philippe, please do not believe what you see on TV or even everything you
> read on this list. The belts on "Gone Postal" DID NOT break due to torque.
> They broke because the bearing blocks we ordered were supposed to be rigid
> and in functionality the bearing ended up moving causing the belts to be
> severely out of line so much so that they were forced to ride up over the
> teeth and spin thus destroying the belt. F.T. aka Don Crabtree had
> calculated their strength and I have every reason to believe they would
have
> held with the proper bearing blocks.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 12:33 PM
> Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
>
> Steve,
> be carreful with torque and speed on synchronous belts, Gates poly chain
is
> one of the best polyurethane/kevlar belt (so strong she can outlife chain)
> BUT you have to validate your design before testing, don't make same
mistake
> than Gone postal ;^)
>
> You need Gates PolyChain 14M-PCGT2 or Powergrip 14M-PGGT3
> pitch 14 (biggest available)
> choose maximum width 90mm or 125mm, for your power level maybe you need
two
> side by side (so more than 1000KW transmission is ok)....
> be carreful with belt speed because Polychain degrade faster after 4000
> rev/m, Powergrip GT3 is ok up to 10 000 rev but have less torque
resistance.
> be carefull with motor pulley teeth number, not enough and torque is going
> to kill belt teeth at launch.
>
> I advise you to download free Designflex 2K to make all your calculation.
>
> fascinating project,keep us posted please,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 8:26 PM
> Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
>
> > Gates Poly chain is a belt
> >
> > I am worried about all the torque and the mounting plates also.
> > What kind of motors?? Warp What? 7s or 8s?
> > They look different than the Warp 8s I handled for the Uof W team two
> weeks
> > ago.
> >
> > I would love to stuff 1000 amps into them and see what happens on the
> Dyno.
> >
> > A bit if historic warnings... the Megawatt monster of Bob Boyds, had
> > tripple motors and 2 sets. For 6 motors. This package has never
performed
> as
> > well as it should.
> > There was a LOT of parasitic losses and hard to ballence currents and
> > curves.
> > It should GO like heck. But it has not impressed me.
> > The Silver bullet of Tom True's has a single set of these motors
from
> > the Megawatt monster. I have driven it, it's fun and will rip your head
> off.
> > But at 120 volts it's reliable and setting record as of last year.
> > But we shot for many more volts and all they did was break controllers
and
> > drive train parts. With a Raptor 1200 per motor, and 120 volts They can
> > atleast make many runs. They broke the rear end halfshaft at Vegas last
> > year, just playing with it in first gear. GOT torque. Now they need to
get
> > some high end pull. That's going to take more volts and more motor work.
> >
> > The plates that hold the motor in line needs to be hell for stout, and
as
> > light as they can make it. There's gonna be thousands of pounds of force
> > trying to crush it and bend it.
> > And Joe is right in asking how the Brush end is going to be clear for
> > advancing efforts.
> > We will see. Steve needs to get it down the track acouple of times
before
> we
> > really decend on him for better designs. This one will work.
> > I have no doubts from the Flywheel clutch face back. The rest is about
as
> > good as it gets.
> >
> > I wish I had this toy Box of parts to play with....
> >
> > Gone Postal is a Joke compared to the level of drive train parts that
this
> > Ev will have.
> > Frankly this level of drive train engineering is WHAT should have been
> > designed into GP, in the first place.
> >
> > I am Green with envey.
> > Steve ???
> > Need a driver????
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 7:57 AM
> > Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
> >
> >
> > > Wow. All three motors mounted in thin sheet metal & using one of the
> > motors
> > > to be the drive shaft? Nice light plan. Nice three motor
> installation.
> > > Otmar will be envious. That thing should fly. Are you going to use a
> > Gates
> > > Poly Chain or belt? LR...
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.19 - Release Date: 4/20/2005
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.19 - Release Date: 4/20/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod?? here's something for GP's front end...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 12:32 PM
Subject: RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
> Do you have the tranny chosen yet? I have a specially made VW Syncro
> tranny with a locking differential for an earlier iteration of the
> Ghiamonster that's looking for a home. It's supposed to be pretty tough
> but the builder wouldn't stand behind it for 1000 ft lbs ;o)
>
> Steve
> www.ghiamonster.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 8:05 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
> I am interested also in the belt routing. I have an exact duplication
> of
> your pattern in mind. Two motors only the third will be the motor input
> to
> a VW tranny. I want to use a Gates Poly Chain. LR>......
>
> The information contained in this email message is being transmitted to
and is intended for the use of only the individual(s) to whom it is
addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you
are hereby advised that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error,
please immediately delete.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 12:56 PM
Subject: RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
> Comments inline...
> That would indeed be interesting though I thought you had already done
> some tests with the Warp 8"ers. What'd you find out?
> *****
Not much I did not get them on the Dyno, we worked on brush breaking and run
in.
They were well radiused, but not polished. They looked a LOT better when
they left.
Warp did a nice job.
No split brushes. but 8 Nice AvDC style brushes and holders. The
interconnect copper looked.. about the same.
I did not pull it out and measure it.
>
> *****
> Each of the Ghia's motors will have their own Zilla 1K HV controller
> wired in parallel to a single 336V pack of 14ah SVR buddy triplets.
>
> It seems that we should have plenty of voltage even at 50% sag to
> fireball the motors if we don't set a motor voltage limit on the Zilla.
> *****
Yea this is pretty clear. Start with lower voltages on the motors, creap up
on the volts. This way you can see the effect before the parts leave the
car.
>
> The plates that hold the motor in line needs to be hell for stout, and
> as
> light as they can make it. There's gonna be thousands of pounds of force
> trying to crush it and bend it.
> And Joe is right in asking how the Brush end is going to be clear for
> advancing efforts.
> We will see. Steve needs to get it down the track acouple of times
> before we
> really decend on him for better designs. This one will work.
> I have no doubts from the Flywheel clutch face back. The rest is about
> as
> good as it gets.
>
> *****
> Do you think 1/2 inch aluminum will be sufficient?
Only if it's really good aluminum 6061-T5. Anything less will bend.
Nasty is 7075-T6. This you won't break, and it's stronger than Steel lb for
lb. I would ask your machinist. With all that air in the lightening,
having really good Alum is cheap compared to the
Cost of failure.
>
> I just talked to the builder and he fully intends to put timing slots on
> the plate. Now, we just need to figure which plate this is. Is this
> the one on the pulley side of the motor or on the opposite side?
> *****
Brush end, I expect that to be the front end of the motors.
>
> I wish I had this toy Box of parts to play with....
>
> Gone Postal is a Joke compared to the level of drive train parts that
> this
> Ev will have.
> Frankly this level of drive train engineering is WHAT should have been
> designed into GP, in the first place.
>
> *****
> If there's one lesson I've learned from the EV drag racing crowd, it's
> to use stout components. From the Lenco (John Wayland's suggestion) to
> the Strange rear end, we're building the car to go much quicker than the
> batteries we can get today can push us. I expect it to be pretty
> reliable.
> *****
>
> I am Green with envey.
> Steve ???
> Need a driver????
>
> *****
> I would love to have the many people that've been helping me with this
> project take the car down the track when it's eventually complete. The
> project's starting to pick up pace and I'm hoping that late this year it
> will actually be drivable.
>
> Madman, wanna come down to San Diego for a ride sometime? =o)
> *****
>
That would be worth the plane ticket....
You do this right, and single digit times will arrive with Lions....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gordon Niessen wrote:
> The part that bothers me is that they claim most of the Electrical
> Components are listed as "New, never used". It seems odd that it would be
> sold that complete without actually running. The question is what problem
> stopped them actually running it.
"An additional brace is needed under the motor to keep the torque from
loosening the drive belt on acceleration."
"A charging connection needs to be wired."
"Tires should be replaced for racing."
"Seat belts need to be mounted."
"This car was designed and built to be the cornerstone of an urban
motorsports program, which was conceived to bring the entertainment
power of NASCAR racing to the urban markets by racing electric-powered
stock cars indoors."
RE: Louisiana Super Dome
Indoor Nascar racing...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=98061&item=4543594255&rd=1
>
I'm not an EE but when I saw that ultra capacitor, I thought it was a second
motor. Is this a
common item? I'm more familiar with the form factor Victor used.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll get my system done quite soon, where opto-isolation
is done right at the battery. It is basically just waiting
for big enough order to make production worthwhile.
What are you planning to use the data for? Just look at it
or feed into other hardware to do something?
Victor
Jamie Marshall (GAMES) wrote:
I'd like to avoid using a relay system because I want the isolation to
happen right at the battery, keeping traction voltage isolated to inside
the battery box. I'd be worried about a relay shorting out and frying
my PC (or frying me).
I'm looking at USB based low-cost DAQs like this:
http://www.measurementcomputing.com/pmd.html
-Jamie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Multi turn pots???
> That would make the problem worse.
> Multi turn ports don't
> weather very well. compared to a Steel slug in a plastic tube
> inside a 200 turn coil.
The suggestion was to replace the single turn WOT adjustment pot with a
multi-turn unit that would be less prone to vibrating out of adjustment,
not replacing the inductive throttle sensor with a pot of any sort.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
