EV Digest 4305
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) FireFly, cause of the fire
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Aprilia trike in Maxim
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Value of electric 7 EV?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) RE: Value of electric 7 EV? Better body needed!!!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re EV watercraft, EV jet ski's and EV race cars was: Newbie introduction
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) TdS Report #12: Team Profile: #xx, Toyota Prius
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) TdS Report #13: Photos - S&S AutoSport's entrant: S&S AutoSport Prius
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) NiCd questions
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) New e meter, Xantrex
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: New e meter, Xantrex
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: NiCd questions
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: NiCd questions
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Re EV watercraft, EV jet ski's and EV race cars was: Newbie
introduction
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Newbie introduction
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Pics of the Big Guy, mechanical questions (was Re: New EV Dragster)
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Re EV watercraft, EV jet ski's and EV race cars was: Newbie
introduction
by "SouthwestAuctions" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Seattle Parks and Recreation Alternatively Fueled Vehicle
Rally
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 22 Apr 2005 at 21:56, Stu and Jan wrote:
> Is there any reason why a mechanical controller as I have just described
> would not outlive the motor?
Why not build one and see how it works? Let us know!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
A long, long, time ago, Sparrow #164, known as "Firefly" had an electrical
fire.
I ended up with the bird, and have finally started work on repairs.
In the process of getting to the melted wires, I found that the fire was
NOT caused by the "brake line against the battery post" problem.
It was caused by the "Battery cable rubbing against a bracket" problem,
combined with (of course) the non-isolated HV wiring.
http://www.casadelgato.com/Gallery/thumbnails.php?album=61
As a minor side issue, I also found that a fair number of the bolts holding
things together had worked rather loose.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
this type of wheel where invented by Mister Sbarro which design school is
located near my home.
He equiped about 15 years ago 2 BMW motorbike with them, design was using
automotive production robot bearing, i still have somewhere the motorbike
magazine which present these bikes.
I found this in english:
http://www.osmoswheel.com/pages/descriptif.asp?lang=en
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: Aprilia trike in Maxim
> Larry wrote:
> > In the may Maxim theres a sketch or two of an Aprilia hybrid leaning
trike
> > that is very cool. It has those impossible looking hubless wheels,
>
> They put wheels like this on an Aprilia?!!
>
> http://img228.echo.cx/img228/2481/hubless3it.jpg
>
> ;)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Is there any reason why a mechanical controller as I have just described
> > would not outlive the motor?
>
> Why not build one and see how it works? Let us know!
>
Well, if you're going to be experimenting, you could also try what another
listee saved his controller dollars with: using a water tank with KOH or NaOH
(he used NaCl, which can create chlorine gas, a safety risk) and mechanically
adjust speed by slipping metal plates in. I think either idea is going to
compromise your range due to poor efficiency (and sacrifice a lot of metal to
various electrical forces), but if you go about it accurately and
scientifically, you should end up with a definitive answer, and anything that
gets more EVs on the road is great, as long as it is also safe.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
you still can buy AC system at half siemens cost from solectria no ?
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 5:04 AM
Subject: RE: Value of electric 7 EV?
> Hi Nick,
>
> Building a Lotus 7 kit based EV is a great way to go.
> A couple of us have done it.
>
> Could you sell a car like this? of course!
> Could you sell it for more than it cost to build? Dunno.
>
> Li-Poly plus AC (I assume you've looked through Victor's site
> www.metricmind.com or the Electric Imp site www.proev.com ) is going to
> cost a large chunk of money - probably about double what the Lotus 7 kit
> costs.
> (Victor, were you selling 3.7V Kokams for about US$5 per Ah?)
>
> In Australia (where I built my Birkin based EV) that comes to about
> AU$100K.
> Now that's more than a BMW Z4 ($81K), an MG TF 160 ($52K), Mazda MX5 SE
> ($45K), Toyota Prius ($38K) or a Toyota MR2 Spyder ($50K).
>
> Admittedly, this car would be in the serious sports car performance
> league.
>
> Who would spend that sort of money on a car that doesn't even have
> doors?
> Someone with lots of spare money, an environmental image, but likes to
> go fast.
> A celebrity.
>
> I suggest you find someone that wants a car like this and get them to
> pay you to build it rather than spending the big bucks to build an
> amazing car, just to have no-one buy it.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick Austin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, 23 April 2005 11:43 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Value of electric 7 EV?
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm thinking about buying a Birkin or Caterham 7 kit and building an EV
> with
> Lipoly batteries and an AC motor around it.
>
> Then I thought, this would be a really cool car, could I sell a car like
> this?
>
> What do you think the value of a vehicle like this is? Do you think
> there is
> money to be made doing this?
>
> I've seen the electric7.com site, and his car looks very nice.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Thanks!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Is there any reason why a mechanical controller as I have just described
> > would not outlive the motor?
>
P.S. - I guess even the SCR controls available 25yrs ago were too expensive:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1980_September_October/Mother_s_Own_Hybrid_Car_
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark, Nick and All,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> << Hi Mark, Nick and Al,
> They have an Aero CD of about .65 which is
> really bad if you intend to go faster than 50 mph,
> range will be terrible.
> Build the chassis and put a more aero body
> on it!
> Put say a Ferrari Daytona or Ford GT-40,
> ect, body on it and you could easily get really good
> money for it in the US.
> Go for a Locost 7 chassis to keep costs low
> for more profit.
> HTH's,
> Jerry Dycus >>
>
> Looking at
> http://www.teknett.com/pwp/drmayf/tbls.htm (I've now
> linked this on
> the EV Calculator page), a Catherham Super 7 is .62
> and 15.8sq ft for a 9.81
> CdA (10% more than a Camaro convertible). The Birkin
But a Camaro has much more frontal area and the
hardtop is much lower drag. It can seat 4 people too.
Compare it with a Ferrari hard top, Porsche, if you
want to be fair.
> and other Super 7 clones
> aren't a style you easily "convert" to lower that
> value, but you'd have to have
> your heart set on a convertible to not choose
> something "slicker". For example,
> the entry for an MG RV8 is 9.02 vs anequivalent
> coupe, an MGB, is 7.09. But, if
> the CdA was the only determining factor, conversions
> would all be MR2s!
That would be a better choice ;-)
Notice which ones I picked, not convertibles and
low frontal areas!
A convertible can be made much better by making a
much more aero hard top for it. But that won't work on
the 7's, ect as it's problem is mostly the wheels.
>
> Peruse the other models to compare, but when it
> comes to drains on the system
> and stressing the components, driving on city
> streets gets hit by stop-and-go
> demands, while freeway speeds are where you really
> worry about aero drag.
>
So true!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Andrew and All,
--- SouthwestAuctions <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Allow me to introduce myself.
> My name is Andrew Goldschmidt. My wife and I run a
> business named Southwest Auctions Online L.L.C. We
> sell other peoples' stuff on ebay. We specialize in
> Race cars, motorcycles, jetskis, etc., though we do
> sell almost anything of value.
>
> We have recently been contacted to sell an ex Indy
> Light race car that was converted to electric. It is
> still set up for it though the batteries, controller
> and motor have all been removed. This was actually a
> Tom Brawner car.
>
> During my research I came across this mailing list
> and was quite intrigued. I am an aircraft mechanic
> and avionics tech by trade, had raced jetskis for
> many years then rotary engined cars, and now race
> Formula Ford cars. i have always wanted to build an
> electric jetski, but did not know where to go for
> info. Any advice on the feasability would be
> appreciated.
While it will work, it won't for long as any
planning watercraft neds much more power to go fast
for long.
Also the small jets are very low eff.
On the water to go reasonably fast for longer
distances, us a Cat/tri hulls set up with length/beam
ratios of between 8 and 10-1.
They can carry the batt weight neededand have
very low drag. Combined with larger, more eff slower
turning props, you have a winning combination for EV's
on the water.
> As for the Indy car, we are exploring the options
> of whether to sell it whole or part it out. i will
> let you all know the fate of this car as this
> project progresses.
Lets us know when it goes up for action or if you
want to sell it at a set price.
There are many websites to sell EV's, EV stuff that
can be found under EV's for sale. And no fees on
them!!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
> For now, I appreciate the bandwidth and appreciate
> anyone's input.
>
> Thanks,
> -AndrewG
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #12: Team Profile: #xx, Toyota Prius
For over a decade now, part of the message of the Tour de Sol has been that
sustainable transportation is practical transportation. Another part of the
message is that we are not limited by what we have now. Bob Strattan has been
wearing two hats at the Tour for some time now. One reads "See What is
Practical Now" and the other reads "Look At What is Coming!" He provided most
of this Report.
S&S Autosport Toyota Prius, #70
S&S Autosport, Tulsa, OK
This is the fifth Tour de Sol for Bob Strattan's S&S AutoSport model year 2001
Toyota Prius. It has competed each year since it was the first Prius HEV
delivered in Tulsa, OK. It is the defending champion of the Light-duty HEV
Production Class. The car has 60,000 trouble free miles and a lifetime average
of 45 MPG.
Dr. Strattan is a faculty advisor to the University of Tulsa's Hurricane Motor
Works HEV project which has entered prototype HEVs in the 7 previous Tour de
Sols.
Bob Strattan has been coming to the Tour as an advisor to the University of
Tulsa's teams since 1998 and as a competitor in his own right since 2001.
This year his Prius also is participating in the Green Car Monte Carlo-style
Rally as well as the Tour de Sol Championship event. Bob and Vada Strattan are
rallying into Saratoga Springs from their home in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
The 2001 model year Toyota Prius was the first customer delivered Prius in
Tulsa, arriving in October 2000. It has been Bob's daily driver ever since,
and is rolling up 60,000 trouble free miles. This is its 5th trip from
Oklahoma to the Tour de Sol. The lifetime fuel economy average has been about
45 miles per gallon. Careful driving at below interstate speed limits can
result in values over 55 miles per gallon. The mileage is better in city
driving than on the highway, but goes down in the summer when using the air
conditioner, and in the winter due to longer warm-up periods. The highest
mileages are usually observed in the spring and fall. This Prius holds the
light duty production HEV (4-6 passenger) Tour de Sol records of 53 MPGe (miles
per gallon equivalent) fuel economy and 207 grams of CO2 greenhouse gas
emission.
Bob enjoys opportunities to give presentations about hybrid vehicle technology
and sustainable fuel issues to civic and professional groups. One of the joys
of driving an unconventional vehicle is the getting to talk about it and
explain the concept to the public. The public displays are one of features of
the Tour de Sol than keeps him returning.
Team Name S & S AutoSport
Vehicle Name Toyota Prius
Vehicle Number 70
Registered as Car
In State Oklahoma
Empty weight 2765
Length 14 feet 2 inches
Width 5 feet 7 inches
Height 4 feet 10 inches
Frame material steel
Body material steel
No. of people 5
Energy Storage System
Manufacturer Toyota
Chemistry NiMH
No. of cells 228
Connection series
Capacity 1768 Watt-hours
System Voltage 272
Weight 90 pounds
Electric Drive System
Manufacturer Toyota
Motor type brushless DC
Motor rating 33 kiloWatts peak
Electric Control System
Manufacturer Toyota
Type multiple embedded microcontrollers
Fueled Drive System
Manufacturer Toyota
Displacement 1.5 liters
Hybrid Geometry parallel power-split
Fuel reformulated gasoline
Tank Capacity 11.9 gallons
Fuel Efficiency 52 city / 45 highway / 48 combined miles per gallon
Emissions test? no
Tires
Number 4
Manufacturer Bridgestone
Model P175/65, R 14
Type radial
Brakes
Front disc
Rear drum
Regenerative yes
Accompanying the engineering students from the University of Tulsa is what
brought Bob to his first Tour de Sol in 1998. The Hurricane Motor Works
student teams designed and scratch-built a fiberglass chassis series-hybrid for
the HEV Challenge university design competitions held from 1993 through 1995.
When they were not selected to continue into the FutureCar and Future Truck
competitions, the school decided to continue to develop HEVs and use the Tour
de Sol to benchmark their progress.
Initially, the students converted a Geo Metro hatchback into a test mule to
develop a parallel hybrid powertrain. This HEV, the ParaDyne, won the
prototype HEV category in 1999 using gasoline and in 2002 using E85 fuel. The
ParaDyne set the HEV range record of 493 miles and fuel economy record of 47.6
MPGe in 1999 and the won the best ethanol vehicle prize in the 2002 tour de
Sol.
The students then designed a built the light weight and aerodynamic carbon
fiber and fiberglass prototype HEV Proxima that competed in the 2003 and 2004
Tour de Sol events. This vehicle is still a work in progress, but has taken a
back burner to the Challenge X project now underway at the Hurricane Motor
Works.
The University of Tulsa is one of 17 universities accepted into the "Challenge
X" competition sponsored by the Department of Energy and General Motors, along
with many other companies. "Challenge X: Crossover to Sustainable Mobility" is
a 3 year competition where the engineering students use the industrial standard
vehicle development process to demonstrate improved fuel efficiency and reduced
emissions while maintaining performance and drivability. The target vehicle is
the Chevrolet Equinox. After completing a year of simulations, analyses and
design trade studies, the students will be presenting their results in Detroit
in early June 2005. They will receive an Equinox crossover SUV to take apart
and put back together in a hybrid-electric configuration for test
demonstrations at GM proving grounds in 2006 and 7. Hopefully the product of
this endeavor will appear at the Tour de Sol in the future.
These HEV design and competition projects provide excellent hands-on learning
experiences for the students and are a good recruiting tool for the school.
Many incoming students cite the opportunity to participate in these programs as
an important factor for their school selection.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #13: Photos - S&S AutoSport's entrant: S&S AutoSport Prius
Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005/photos_003.html
S&S AutoSport's entrant: S&S AutoSport Prius
Photos provided by Bob Strattan.
Starting out under the Blue Planet Earth Flag.
On display at the Trenton NJ State Museum plaza in 2002.
Displaying the trophies won in 2002.
Photos provided by Bob Strattan.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all,
For those working with BB600's to make a traction pack
i have a couple questions :
-has anyone had any luck having some standard sized
interconnects stamped somewhere ? I know Dave Cover
was working on it here in CT but I am wondering if his
efforts are being duplicated by individuals around the
country. Surely we can agree on a couple sizes and all
save a little money by having one big lot made.
-Second, has anyone decided what you will do about an
accessory battery ? The military manual for these
cells is full of warnings about keeping them far away
from lead acid batteries (not even in the same
garage). So are people planning NICD accesory
batteries as well ? any other choices ?
i am really eager to get my pack built and into the
fiero so I can be driving by this summer.
~fortunat
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- Begin Message ---
I have one of the new xantrex meters , which only uses 6 ma to run ( so they
say ) and can be plugged into a computer for data logging , . Here are some
problems I'm having , the ah do not reset to 0 when you start discharging
like the old e meter dose and I can't find any way other than unplugging it
to reset it . So as you can see if you over charge 10 % or equalize your ah
will be off ( and in a bad way , think you got more than you do ) . I called
them and they though MY idea of unplugging it was a good :-( . I may have
to put a switch on it . I have been data logging and its neat to see the
days discharge and charge . Can see that curve where the volts start going
up fast , then level off , OHHHH and start to drop , think I got a little
thermal run away , the PFC charger turns off but as my batteries are
starting to get a little old ( 15k) I'm thinking of turning the volts down a
little , I may have the timer set to long , when they where new I was going
to 15v and as I was using little water I gave it more end time , anyway can
see it all , but can't see it when its on , I have to turn off the data
logger to see the graft , . another cool thing is seeing all the stuff volts
, amp , amp hours , battery temp( has a temp sensor that goes on neg post )
all at once on a computer screen. If I could just see the graft also .
anyone using one of these?
steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> like the old e meter dose and I can't find any way other than
> unplugging it to reset it .
Steve-
Any chance they provide a new function option to address the AH reset
behavior?
I'm curious what you are using as your datalogger?
I've still got intentions to recompile Peter Ohler's EVdash Palm Pilot
program for newer PalmOS versions---but other things keep getting in my
way...
-Myles Twete
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm definitely interested in joining in on getting some interconnects
made, though my goals may make this difficult. I was actually thinking
about making my interconnects out of segments of L-channel copper or
strips folded that way, to increase surface area and cooling during high
current draws. Blowing air across the tops of the batteries would allow
such interconnects to act as heat sinks. I don't know if this is worth
the effort; I'll get a feel for how hot the cells get when I start testing
them. (This, incidentally, is being stalled by the shunts I'm still
waiting for -- my order from Deltec got confused as they were making some
internal process changes).
For an accessory battery, I was hoping that a sealed AGM (like a Group 51
Optima) would be sufficient, and safe assuming I'll never draw or charge
it enough to vent it. Even so, if it had the cool little vent nozzle like
the Group 31s have, I'd run a hose to the bottom of the truck; alas the
bulk of one of those is hard to justify for the 12V system.
Opinions? Is even a sealed PbA unsafe?
--chris
Fortunat Mueller said:
> Hey all,
>
> For those working with BB600's to make a traction pack
> i have a couple questions :
>
> -has anyone had any luck having some standard sized
> interconnects stamped somewhere ? I know Dave Cover
> was working on it here in CT but I am wondering if his
> efforts are being duplicated by individuals around the
> country. Surely we can agree on a couple sizes and all
> save a little money by having one big lot made.
>
> -Second, has anyone decided what you will do about an
> accessory battery ? The military manual for these
> cells is full of warnings about keeping them far away
> from lead acid batteries (not even in the same
> garage). So are people planning NICD accesory
> batteries as well ? any other choices ?
>
> i am really eager to get my pack built and into the
> fiero so I can be driving by this summer.
>
> ~fortunat
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not a NiCad accessory battery?
I would suggest going offshore for interconnects.
Seth
On Apr 23, 2005, at 10:44 AM, Fortunat Mueller wrote:
Hey all,
For those working with BB600's to make a traction pack
i have a couple questions :
-has anyone had any luck having some standard sized
interconnects stamped somewhere ? I know Dave Cover
was working on it here in CT but I am wondering if his
efforts are being duplicated by individuals around the
country. Surely we can agree on a couple sizes and all
save a little money by having one big lot made.
-Second, has anyone decided what you will do about an
accessory battery ? The military manual for these
cells is full of warnings about keeping them far away
from lead acid batteries (not even in the same
garage). So are people planning NICD accesory
batteries as well ? any other choices ?
i am really eager to get my pack built and into the
fiero so I can be driving by this summer.
~fortunat
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also you can join the electric boat groups on Yahoo:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/ or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboating/
As mentioned by Jerry, sure, you can make an electric jetski, but it's range
wouldn't be but a lap or two at speed...
My 4000#, 26ft wooden scow cruiser, with 12 T-105 batteries, running on 36v,
with ETEK 8HP (6HP at 36v) motor and Alltrax Controller, modified 25HP
outboard drive with 12x12x3 brass prop can do up to 6knots. But at 6knots
it'll only have about an 11n-mi range at 100%DOD. AT 5knots, it'll do
20n-mi, 4knots: 40n-mi and 3knots: 60n-mi ----- clearly speed has its price:
for my displacement hull, the price is steep: 2x power per n-mi speed
increase to 6knots. With a jetski, once on plane, the average range cost of
speed drops, but it's still steep----then there's the inefficiency in the
drive as Jerry mentioned.
Here's my boat: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492.html
-Myles TWete, Portland, Or.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of jerry dycus
> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 4:38 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re EV watercraft, EV jet ski's and EV race cars was: Newbie
> introduction
>
>
> Hi Andrew and All,
> --- SouthwestAuctions <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Allow me to introduce myself.
> > My name is Andrew Goldschmidt. My wife and I run a
> > business named Southwest Auctions Online L.L.C. We
> > sell other peoples' stuff on ebay. We specialize in
> > Race cars, motorcycles, jetskis, etc., though we do
> > sell almost anything of value.
> >
> > We have recently been contacted to sell an ex Indy
> > Light race car that was converted to electric. It is
> > still set up for it though the batteries, controller
> > and motor have all been removed. This was actually a
> > Tom Brawner car.
> >
> > During my research I came across this mailing list
> > and was quite intrigued. I am an aircraft mechanic
> > and avionics tech by trade, had raced jetskis for
> > many years then rotary engined cars, and now race
> > Formula Ford cars. i have always wanted to build an
> > electric jetski, but did not know where to go for
> > info. Any advice on the feasability would be
> > appreciated.
>
> While it will work, it won't for long as any
> planning watercraft neds much more power to go fast
> for long.
> Also the small jets are very low eff.
> On the water to go reasonably fast for longer
> distances, us a Cat/tri hulls set up with length/beam
> ratios of between 8 and 10-1.
> They can carry the batt weight neededand have
> very low drag. Combined with larger, more eff slower
> turning props, you have a winning combination for EV's
> on the water.
>
>
> > As for the Indy car, we are exploring the options
> > of whether to sell it whole or part it out. i will
> > let you all know the fate of this car as this
> > project progresses.
>
> Lets us know when it goes up for action or if you
> want to sell it at a set price.
> There are many websites to sell EV's, EV stuff that
> can be found under EV's for sale. And no fees on
> them!!
> HTH's,
> Jerry Dycus
>
> > For now, I appreciate the bandwidth and appreciate
> > anyone's input.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -AndrewG
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi AndrewG
----- Original Message -----
From: "SouthwestAuctions"
Allow me to introduce myself.
. i have always wanted to build an electric jetski, but did not know where
to go for info.
This would be a good place , I assume you've used a jetski , can you tell us
about how much gas you would need to do what you want , a ruff rule of thumb
is 500 lbs( some say more )= 1 gallon of gas , this is ruff as I one time
drove 90 miles on 1300 lbs , but could also burn it up in 40 miles .
steve clunn
www.grassrootsev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 4:25 AM
Subject: RE: Mechanical PWM Controllers
> Is there any reason why a mechanical controller as I have just
> described
> would not outlive the motor?
Why not build one and see how it works? Let us know!
I haven't seen it posted , but I don't think you'll get the current
mulaplcation like the PWM controllers do , you can put in 156v 10 battery
amp and get out 15 volts 100 amps ( app)
steve clunn,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the cost difference in cost between 1144 and 4140 half hard
isn't enough to worry about.
By plunge, I mean slip. Some CV joints accomodate this (tri-lobe, like
you are familiar with, and some of the more modern designs from Lobro
and others. But I need to look into it more. I am not familiar with any
FWD transaxle half-shafts having discrete sliding mechanisms, they are
always accomodated in one or more joint- in my experience)
www.roadranger.com is Eaton and Dana they are pretty standard and have
lots of data
Do you have an estimate of maximum output speed? Or tire size and top
speed. This is a concern when it comes to driveshaft angle, especially
for u-joints.
Some platings affect the fatigue strength. In general, I wouldn't do a
plating. There should be grease most any place there will be splines,
so I don't think there is a reason to plate. And all the other
drivetrain parts will likely be steel or painted steel, wo why be
different.
Seth
On Apr 23, 2005, at 2:21 AM, Christopher Robison wrote:
Seth Allen said:
Ok, before I start, I will make a few assumptions and such:
1: You don't want to greatly increase cost, so a material that doesn't
need a rough machining, heat treat and grind to size is desirable
I agree with this (I've got plenty of other parts of the truck that are
also demanding my money), though I'm not sure even what kind of
neighborhood to shoot for. Am I looking at a thousand bucks no matter
what
I do, or am I just trying to save a hundred or so? I've already spent
a
few grand; a couple hundred well-placed dollars aren't so much of an
issue, but adding half the cost of the motor would be difficult.
2: You need some plunge on the output
I'm not sure what this means. Are you referring to the need for a slip
yoke, or sliding element somewhere along the driveline? If so, yes --
I am
not willing to lock down the rear end (at least not permanently); I
need
to allow for some suspension travel.
3: a standard interface is nice
I have bought from Inland Empire in the past; they make a wide variety
of
slip yokes. In general though, yes, standard == good.
4: you want it sized for fatigue life at peak torque (many dragstrip
runs)
Agreed. The motor will be heavy and expensive to ship, making the cost
of
replacing the shaft pretty high, if I'm to have Netgain doing it.
Warfield
has a location in Dallas I'm told, but they don't work on the Warps.
All
in all, I'd like the shaft to last. :o) I'm willing to spend a little
more now to help with this.
5: you will not be getting it plated
I can't say without more information. What would be the benefit of
plating, and with what material? Is it expensive? Would it be worth
it? If
you're talking about aesthetics (chrome plating or whatever), then no.
I
just don't want it rusting. :o)
If all this is right, then a suggestion for a steel might be a
pre-hardened AISI 4140 which is fairly common and fairly easy to
machine. It won't be fully hard, but you won't have to do the heat
treat and grind to size.
I will make a note of this -- thank you!
As for an output. I have done standard yokes with slip joint
driveshafts for trucks. Not sexy, but they work. But your torque is
actually quite low if this is direct drive to the rear diff.
Compared to the potential if I had a transmission, yes, the torque is
pretty low. It seemed high to me, but that was during my search for a
suitable manual transmission. On the other hand, the existing
driveshaft
on my truck probably doesn't even see a third as much torque, flooring
it
in first gear. The input shaft on my transmission is only rated for 175
ft-lbs; I don't have the ratios handy but output torque can't be too
spectacular. In fact, in 1st I guess I probably get less peak torque at
the *wheels* today than I'll eventually get out of this motor. In that
sense, it's not so bad. :o)
A CV joint
can easily handle this torque and requires no alignment of the yokes
or
concern over driveshaft angle. A CV flange on the output of the motor
with whay would normally be an IRS halfshaft could work quite well.
I am not quite familiar with the setup you're referring to. Is it
possible
to get something like this that is long enough, and lightweight? I
have
been assuming the need for a traditional driveshaft and a slip-yoke on
the
motor, in part because of the arrangement of the motor and
differential.
I'm planning on putting the motor under the passenger compartment,
between
the seats, where the transmission is now. I would put it further back,
but
I'd like to put battery boxes between the frame rails. I've been
planning
on using a large diameter aluminum or carbon fiber shaft between the
battery boxes to reduce spinning mass. Can I have this same arrangement
with CV joints?
When you speak of CV joints, I'm imagining the three rollers at the
end of
a shaft which fits in a cup with three deep corresponding grooves,
allowing both the CV torque transfer as well as a small amount of
sliding
motion. Is this the sort of thing you're referring to?
It
is what I would do, but some people really refer U-joints.
At this point, I don't think I have enough knowledge to have a valid
preference. I have come to certain conclusions based on what I've
learned
so far, but of course nothing is really concluded until I start
actually
acquiring the parts. Until then, the more I can learn, the better. I'm
OK
with CV joints (actually, I like the idea of the smooth torque
transfer,
and not having to worry about matching angles and such), I just don't
know
what else about my driveline plans would have to change.
If that is
the case, then at www.roadranger.com there are loads of U-joint specs
there. ANd they will specify the spline options. Let me know what your
preference is (CV joint or U-joint) and we can wade through the
options
and once a spline is found, see if it will work. Your torque is so low
that with half-hard 4140 and an easily cut involute spline on a ~2"
diameter that I think there will be no problem with fatigue life, even
after effects like corrosion are figured in.
What are the corrosion properties of 4140? What kind of degradation
can I
expect, mechanically and aesthetically, assuming this will be
subjected to
water and road grime? For the most part though, this sounds like what
I'm
looking for. Can we say that 1144 is out of the picture? I understand
it
responds well to heat treating, though I don't know if this will give
me
what I want.
I will see what info I can dig up on CV joints used in this
application.
Although I'm hesitant about using techniques that aren't popular in
racing, I realize the operating parameters here are a bit different and
may call for an unusual solution. Mainly, if we can plan a driveline
that's lightweight, can span from the cab to the differential, can
tolerate the torque and the RPM (I'll be running a 5.0-5.3 or so rear
end
ratio, not quite sure yet), then I won't have much rational cause to
disagree.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Jerry,
-Andrew G.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 4:38 AM
Subject: Re EV watercraft, EV jet ski's and EV race cars was: Newbie
introduction
> Hi Andrew and All,
> --- SouthwestAuctions <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Allow me to introduce myself.
> > My name is Andrew Goldschmidt. My wife and I run a
> > business named Southwest Auctions Online L.L.C. We
> > sell other peoples' stuff on ebay. We specialize in
> > Race cars, motorcycles, jetskis, etc., though we do
> > sell almost anything of value.
> >
> > We have recently been contacted to sell an ex Indy
> > Light race car that was converted to electric. It is
> > still set up for it though the batteries, controller
> > and motor have all been removed. This was actually a
> > Tom Brawner car.
> >
> > During my research I came across this mailing list
> > and was quite intrigued. I am an aircraft mechanic
> > and avionics tech by trade, had raced jetskis for
> > many years then rotary engined cars, and now race
> > Formula Ford cars. i have always wanted to build an
> > electric jetski, but did not know where to go for
> > info. Any advice on the feasability would be
> > appreciated.
>
> While it will work, it won't for long as any
> planning watercraft neds much more power to go fast
> for long.
> Also the small jets are very low eff.
> On the water to go reasonably fast for longer
> distances, us a Cat/tri hulls set up with length/beam
> ratios of between 8 and 10-1.
> They can carry the batt weight neededand have
> very low drag. Combined with larger, more eff slower
> turning props, you have a winning combination for EV's
> on the water.
>
>
> > As for the Indy car, we are exploring the options
> > of whether to sell it whole or part it out. i will
> > let you all know the fate of this car as this
> > project progresses.
>
> Lets us know when it goes up for action or if you
> want to sell it at a set price.
> There are many websites to sell EV's, EV stuff that
> can be found under EV's for sale. And no fees on
> them!!
> HTH's,
> Jerry Dycus
>
> > For now, I appreciate the bandwidth and appreciate
> > anyone's input.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -AndrewG
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pat/Chris Clarke and All,
Regarding a conversion for kids and dogs, when I started thinking about
which vehicle to convert and settled on a pickup, I chose an extended cab
to have jump-seats for the kids, and of course the dog crates can go in the
bed. Now that my kids are older teenagers, they don't want anything to do
with riding in the back of the pickup and would rather drive themselves,
but I can stuff one of my daughter's friends into a jump-seat in a pinch!
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:33:42 +0000
<snip>
>We haven�t had much luck in our halting search for a suitable used
>conversion, and are still pondering
>doing a conversion ourselves (no serious automotive experience, just a DIY
>attitude and willingness to get
>dirty). Two kids and a big dog rule out the �traditional� Rabbit/Geo
>solution; we are trying to research
>larger vehicles, and could perhaps live with a pickup that could seat three.
<snip>
--- End Message ---
