EV Digest 4308
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Got my taperlock hub off!
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Got my taperlock hub off!
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Brusa NLG412 programming question
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Curtis dc/dc converter
by "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Treadmill motor that could be used for EV accesory power
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Best AGMs for VW Beetle Conversion?
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Testing
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Brusa NLG412 programming question
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Treadmill motor that could be used for EV accesory power
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Direct Drive Racing Driveline
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Direct Drive Racing Driveline
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Got my taperlock hub off!
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Curtis dc/dc converter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Attempting to get a msg to the list
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) EV Sandrail for sale
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Got my taperlock hub off!
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Direct Drive Racing Driveline
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I hope your motor bearings are ok after all this hammering!
Seth
On Apr 24, 2005, at 1:17 AM, David Dymaxion wrote:
When I put my taperlock hub on, and it was off about 2 thousandths.
My fault, I should have used the dial indicator as I put it on, not
after I was done tightening. I wanted to take it off and try again to
do better (I'm presuming you can differentially tighten bolts to
adjust the fit a bit on a taperlock).
OK, loosen bolts, strike with hammer, hmmm, still stuck!
Tap with hammer a bunch. Still stuck!
Get a gear puller. It can't get a grip. Still stuck!
Get a slide hammer. Destroy all its interior jaws. Still stuck!
Rebolt gear puller to a different config. Can't tighten as motor
shaft spins. Still stuck!
Padded vice grips on the motor shaft can't grip tight enough to keep
everything from spinning as I tighten the gear puller. Still stuck!
Impact wrench on gear puller (the short impacts are resisted by
inertia, so the motor shaft doesn't spin). Taperlock hub pops off!
Yay!
This gives me confidence my taperlock is going to hold on tight!
I'm going to have the flywheel and pressure plate balanced as a unit,
spin everything up to check for vibration, and use the trick of
adding and moving washers to minimize any residual vibration.
So get the taperlock on straight, make some critical measurements,
make the adapter plates and spacer, make a motor mount, bolt it all
together, and I'm ready to slowly creep about on a 12 volt battery!
That'll be a day to celebrate!
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--- Begin Message ---
Make sure when you purchase a taperlock, with both the mounting screw holes and
removable screw holes are the same side. You can get these both ways. If you
are installing a taperlock as a coupler against a motor frame, make sure the
installation screw holes are not against the motor frame. This happens to be
the normal configuration of a taper lock.
They gave me the normal configuration one, and I dry fit it first, to see how
it works. I than took out tiny fold up instruction sheet and oh, oh. How am I
going to removed the taperlock with the removable tapped holes against the
motor frame. So I had to exchange it for the the reversed configuration.
You must than order the reversed of this. You can install a normal
configuration taper lock which has the tapped screw holes against the motor
frame, by using the removable tapped holes on the other side.
Make sure there is at least 1/2 space of metal in the inner locking ring
surrounding the set screws hole to the outer ring. My first one was 3/8 inch
and after about a year of used, developed cracks at this point.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Philip Marino<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 6:15 AM
Subject: RE: Got my taperlock hub off!
Can you add three tapped holes in your hub to make it easy to remove?
Look at my hub and bushing:
http://nick.homelinux.net/phil_echo_b_u/EchoPictures/Echo_adapter_5.jpg<http://nick.homelinux.net/phil_echo_b_u/EchoPictures/Echo_adapter_5.jpg>
The bushing came with three tapped holes in the flange, but , since, when
assembled, the flange is inaaccesible against the motor, they can't be used.
So, I added three tapped holes in the hub for removal. The six large,
evenly spaced holes in the hub are for the flywheel bolts. At the bottom of
three of those holes ( three evenly spaced ones) I tapped three smaller (
5/16-18) holes. It makes the hub easy to remove. ( You could also continue
the larger tapped flywheel mounting holes - I didn't, because I didn't have
a tap that was long enough)
Just screw in three screws ( after removing the flywheel) and turn each a
little at a time. They push against the flange of the bushing and separate
the hub from the bushing. ( You can see two of the three marks on the
bushing flange where these bolts push)
If your bushing isn't flanged, you might be able to do the same thing,
except have the removal screws push on the body of the bushing.
Phil
>From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>Reply-To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>Subject: Got my taperlock hub off!
>Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 22:17:01 -0700 (PDT)
>
>When I put my taperlock hub on, and it was off about 2 thousandths.
>My fault, I should have used the dial indicator as I put it on, not
>after I was done tightening. I wanted to take it off and try again to
>do better (I'm presuming you can differentially tighten bolts to
>adjust the fit a bit on a taperlock).
>
>OK, loosen bolts, strike with hammer, hmmm, still stuck!
>
>Tap with hammer a bunch. Still stuck!
>
>Get a gear puller. It can't get a grip. Still stuck!
>
>Get a slide hammer. Destroy all its interior jaws. Still stuck!
>
>Rebolt gear puller to a different config. Can't tighten as motor
>shaft spins. Still stuck!
>
>Padded vice grips on the motor shaft can't grip tight enough to keep
>everything from spinning as I tighten the gear puller. Still stuck!
>
>Impact wrench on gear puller (the short impacts are resisted by
>inertia, so the motor shaft doesn't spin). Taperlock hub pops off!
>Yay!
>
>This gives me confidence my taperlock is going to hold on tight!
>
>I'm going to have the flywheel and pressure plate balanced as a unit,
>spin everything up to check for vibration, and use the trick of
>adding and moving washers to minimize any residual vibration.
>
>So get the taperlock on straight, make some critical measurements,
>make the adapter plates and spacer, make a motor mount, bolt it all
>together, and I'm ready to slowly creep about on a 12 volt battery!
>That'll be a day to celebrate!
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Apr 2005 at 0:53, Tom Hudson wrote:
> I'm sure the functions will read the profile from my charger -- I
> downloaded the profile some time back so I'd have a copy of it stored on
> disk just in case I needed it.
I went back and reread your original post. Sorry, I misread it the first time.
You're right, those functions should read the profile (such as it is) from the
charger. Note that with the Saft option it won't download or let you change
any of the parameters controlling the change from one stage (section) to the
next. They will show up as just "Saft change from stage 1 to stage 2," et
cetera, and no other details.
What you describe would indicate that nlg isn't talking to the charger. Check
the data cable and your computer. I've had problems running nlg_e with all
versions of WIndows, so I boot from a DOS 6 floppy when I want to run nlg or
nlgmons. Also make sure you are connecting the cable to com1. There's a
command line flag to make nlg talk to com2, but I don't remember what it is.
Connect the data cable, start the computer and fire up nlg. When prompted,
connect the charger to the BATTERY. Do not connect the charger to the
mains - that won't help. Remember where its logic card gets its power!
> And Stephen Taylor used the software to
> tweak the overcharge percentage on his charger (I'm waiting for a call
> from him now). Maybe those values are the ones you're talking about being
> able to change...
Yes. Unless I'm mistaken, all the parameters are visible when you use the
standard (generic lead battery) Brusa firmware, or when you use the non-Saft
option in the Saft firmware. I've never used an "official" Solectria BC3300
charger, so I don't know what access you have to the params there.
>
> And I was looking at the display on NLGMON again -- The temperature
> readouts seem different (much higher temperatures than I was seeing with
> my charger). I wonder if Ralph's charger was set up to use different
> (non-SAFT) temperature probes.
I can't speak for Ralph, but my stuff is mostly the same as what he was
using, and my temp sensors were supplied by Saft as part of the assembled
battery complete with tray. They may not be the same as the sensors Saft
are selling now, though. They are definitely NOT the same as the standard
sensors that Brusa supplied with the generic NLG4 charger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm having a problem with my Curtis Dc/Dc converter. It used to read 14
volts like it was stuck. I did lower the voltage of the charger and then
the voltmeter showed a much lower reading 12-11.
The input is 110 volts (8x13.75), however, the output is only 11.9 volts.
I thought that maybe the ceramic fuse was blowing. It is a Cehess 125 volt
or less 8 amp fuse. I pulled it out and tried to find a new fuse but can
only find glass fuses in town.
The question I have is there any other thing I should be looking at to
correct this? Can I use the glass fuses? There doesn't appear to be any type
of adjustment on the converter. Any other ideas?
I looked through the archive but couldn't really find this posted.
I suppose I could charge the 12 volt battery up independently.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
peter,
As you suggest in a personal low speed light weight ev
designed for either commuting of touring every little
bit helps. With a designed for human power generator
even if it is only 75 watts constant that off sets how
much battery energy you require to accomplish your
goal of distance. The problem is there are no
specifically designed for human power generators. all
the ones I have found are not really designed to make
elecrticity at 60-70 rpm which is what one can
constantly pedal. instead the generators i have found
take the slow speed human energy and dilute it by
mechanical means to go faster. in other words the
generators are designed to produce power at high rpms
and the mechanical/friction losses use up much of the
human power. Is there no way to make a perm mag
generator that will have the correct number of poles
and windings to generate electricity at 60 rpm? I
don't know much about electricity but maybe there is
someone on the list who does and can explain this to
me
thanks
keith
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > With a more efficient generator, I am sure that
> you could charge up a
> > personal electric vehicle of some sort. Perhaps
> an electric bicycle.
>
> With an efficient enough pedal powered generator,
> personal EVs have some
> advantages. Keeping your workout at a constant level
> regardless of terain
> or traffic for example, or energy banking at stops.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
I hope you are not expecting much range. I have a
1970 bug with an 8" ADC, 400 amp curtis, 10 orbital
AGMs it is a great little car but 12 miles at freeway
speeds is the limit. I am presently making it into a
hatch back so I can add another set of batts to
increase the range. I will also buy a Z1 to use the
extra batts more effeciently but still don't think
i'll get much more than 25-30 mi on lead/acid. If I
could afford the $10,000+ for li-ions it would be a
perfect little commuter
keith
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark wrote:
>
> > I'm planning a 60's/70's VW Beetle Bug conversion
> and would like to keep it very >light and minimize
> the number of batts and interconnects. So I'm
> considering 8 or >9 12v AGMs to start. What make &
> model batteries would people recommend?
>
> 3 choices as far as I know..
>
> You've probably seen the prices and weights of the
> Optima yellow and blue tops..
>
>
http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopdisplaysubcat.asp?id=171&cat=Optima+Batteries
>
> How about some Exide Orbitals for ~$98?
>
>
http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopexd.asp?id=5442&catid=341&cat=Automotive&subcat=470&L2=&L3=
>
> Or some Deka Intimators for ~$89?
>
>
http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopexd.asp?id=5448&catid=342&cat=Deka+INTIMIDATOR&subcat=474&L2=&L3=
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
My last 2 postings never showed up, so I'm testing to see if this works...
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan said:
Yes, but solid-state controllers have a diode to maintain the motor
loop circuit when the switch is open. Without some way of doing that,
Steve is right, you'd get the same current out as you put in. The
power that would normally provide "current multiplication" will in
this case be used to fry your contacts and wipe out radio reception
for a few miles :)
Flyback diodes externally on the motor are planned and I should of
mentioned that.
You can use a diode to do this job for your mechanical controller,
but by the same reasoning you'd be able to use a better switch in the
form of a transistor as well!
Same reasoning here is cost. I can get 800Volt 1170Amp diodes for around
$60 or string cheaper ones in parallel
That much silicon is a lot more, like $37/ 1000V mosfet at 50A so 20
odd * ~40 or $800 in raw silicon, then there is the cost of the 5 lb
coffe can worth until you get the drive circuits just right and
programming the DSP and ....
Transistor controllers are the way to go, period, no argument. Smooth
efficient.
If however, we had a controller that could give you 1000 amps at
300volts, that cost less than $500, That could be rebuilt by joe
sixpack, and only cost you a few miles in range, it might get a few more
EV's on the road. These people would catch the EV bug and want to
improve their ride then can buy the contoller next tax return or
paycheck or whatever. The controller equivilant to a bad boy charger and
mounting the alternator on the aux shaft.
Lets face it, evan a DC conversion is expensive!
controller ~2K
charger ~1.5K
dc-dc ~$100-$500
main contactors and fusees ~$400
cable ~$200
batteries ~ $1000-...
motor ~$1500
about $6000 to $8000 all needed to get moving
Believe it or not my biggest worry is not getting enough sparking. my
PWMcommutator design doesn't have shorting coils to worry about so it is
just the induction of the motor and only the forward voltage drop of the
flywheel diodes to help create the spark needed to create and maintain
the film on the PWMcomm. The motor will have already integrated the
current spikes a tad so I am guessing a reduced sparking in the PWM
comm. I will probably have to experiment with brush materials and comm
speed to match to driveing habits.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom,
The charger you bought from me has the updated EEPROMs that allow
you to set the pack voltage. The charger expects to see whatever
temperature sensors were used in the Pivco vehicles, which I think
is different than the sensors used for the standard version of the
charger.
Other than configuring which temp sensors are installed or not, I
don't know what else, if anything, can be changed.
If you want to swap logic boards, be sure the same rework is present
on both boards first. The SAFT upgrade to the Brusa chargers adds
some wires to power part of the logic from the pack. I don't have
the actual details though.
Ralph
Tom Hudson writes:
>
> Worst-case scenario is that I replace the logic board in the charger I
> got from Ralph with the one from my charger. I may just be able to swap
> the EPROMs.
>
> I'm sure the functions will read the profile from my charger -- I
> downloaded the profile some time back so I'd have a copy of it stored on
> disk just in case I needed it. And Stephen Taylor used the software to
> tweak the overcharge percentage on his charger (I'm waiting for a call
> from him now). Maybe those values are the ones you're talking about
> being able to change...
>
> And I was looking at the display on NLGMON again -- The temperature
> readouts seem different (much higher temperatures than I was seeing with
> my charger). I wonder if Ralph's charger was set up to use different
> (non-SAFT) temperature probes.
>
> -Tom
>
> David Roden wrote:
>
> >If that's the charger you got from Ralph, I can tell you it's not password
> >protected in any way (because it's the same as the chargers I have). The
> >functions you mention read profiles from DISK, not from the charger. There
> >is regrettably no way to download the original profile.
> >
> >In fact, the Saft profile is zapped into the charger's EPROM. You can
> >change the safety factors on the main screen. You can change nominal
> >voltage. You can't twiddle the finer points of the Saft charge algorithm,
> >though. However, you can disable the Saft profile entirely and use (most of
> >the) standard charger functions shown in the five profile steps in nlg_e if
> >you want.
> >
> >There's a function in nlg_e called something like "calibrate nominal
> >voltage." (I don't recall the exact name of the function, sorry.) Use
> >that. Enter your 156 volts and run this function. The only problem you
> >might run into is that the original firmware in the charger you got from
> >Ralph was for the Pivco Citibees, and the nominal voltage couldn't be
> >changed! I think Ralph reflashed the EPROM in that charger though, so it
> >should work. If not, either he or I can supply the binary file for you to
> >use. Contact me offline if you need it. You'll also need a compatible
> >EPROM programmer. I'm ignorant of such things, but Ralph can help you with
> >that (you probably know though).
> >
> >
> Thomas Hudson
> http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
> http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
> http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
> http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
> http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In fact, some of the more expensive ellipticals and bikes power the console
from some kind of generator attached to the pedals. They don't plug in at
all; instead, the console comes to life after 2-5 seconds of pedalling, and
they have enough juice to run the console for about 15-30 seconds after
you stop.
Tim
------
> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:16:51 -0700 (MST)
> Subject: Re: Treadmill motor that could be used for EV accesory power
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
>
> Well, when you consider the number of people who pay to go to the gym and
> ride a stationary bike and produce nothing but heat and CO2, any energy
> you produce can be considered a surplus.
> Especially when you consider the number of people in the USA that already
> eat too mcuh anyway.
>
> With an efficient enough pedal powered generator, personal EVs have some
> advantages. Keeping your workout at a constant level regardless of terain
> or traffic for example, or energy banking at stops.
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--- Begin Message ---
Seth Allen said:
> The max rotational speed dictates the angle you can run U-joints at,
> hence the question.
Do you have a breakdown for this? Assuming I'll never go over 5krpm (and
if I do, it will be an unplanned, probably catastrophic circumstance), is
the standard 3 degrees too much?
Also, I was looking at U-joint specs online (e.g. the Neapco catalog) and
noticed that as joint sizes go up, max speed ratings go way down. Then
again, perhaps the catalog was being excessively pessimistic, as the
torque ratings seemed pretty low as well.
At any rate, perhaps CV joints would be a better fit for that reason --
being designed mainly for FWD half shafts, the assumption is to be able to
handle the full torque at the wheels...
I can't help feel a bit discouraged though, as I have spent the entire
morning browsing through manufacturers' and vendors' sites linked from
www.sema.org, and so far have had no luck finding any sort of reference to
CV joints used in this way. This may not be the best cross section of the
automotive performance aftermarket, and I certainly haven't even gotten to
half the sites they link to, but I'm beginning to feel like I'd be very
much on my own.
>
> I guess I was thinking U-joint and CV joints being steel. I forgot you
> want a CF or other light material driveshaft.
I've talked to the folks at Inland Empire (iedls.com) over the phone, and
they say they can make me an aluminum or carbon fiber shaft set up for
1410-series U-joints. The more I think about it, the more I like this
plan. All that remains would be to find the longest and largest-diameter
spline format I can (up to the diameter of the motor shaft) for a slip
yoke and give Netgain the go-ahead to start making the motor.
CV joints would also be a great way to go, theoretically better in many
ways. Again, the only thing making me hesitant about CV joints is my
complete failure to find any information about using them for anything but
FWD or IRS setups. If anyone has a URL, please don't be shy!
I wasn't able to find anything on the Roadranger site you mentioned
either; a search for "CV JOINT" or "CV" in their parts search page yields
zero hits. I'm finding their site really hard to navigate in general;
perhaps there's something I'm missing. On the other hand I can't help
thinking anything I find there would be far heavier than I want, anyway.
> I haev heard explanations about cryo treatments. Mostly from sales
> types. Never used it. If we get to the point where we are worried about
> better material properties then we are too close to the edge ofthe
> design envelope because at this point we don't have the system defined
> well enough to understand all the possible loads. In my opinion, at
> least.
You're probably right about this; I brought it up mainly to get opinions
on it. Unfortunately, I don't have accurate information on the peak
torque the motor will produce, nor do I expect to have such data before I
complete the truck. I'm suggesting 1600ft-lbs as a planning figure, hoping
that this will turn out to be a comfortable exaggeration. I won't get
this much torque at 2000A, but later on with a bypass I'd like to have
*some* confidence that I can hit the switch without breaking the
driveline.
I understand that other forces contribute to the overall picture, shock
loads due to potholes and gear play in the differential, etc. Can these
factors be quantified? (Would knowing the mass of the armature help?) Are
they even important? What additional information is needed in order to get
a better handle on the design envelope?
--chris
>
> Seth
>
> On Apr 23, 2005, at 11:55 PM, Christopher Robison wrote:
>
>> Seth Allen said:
>>
>>>
>>> Do you have an estimate of maximum output speed? Or tire size and top
>>> speed. This is a concern when it comes to driveshaft angle, especially
>>> for u-joints.
>>
>> Netgain has tested the motor out to 6000 RPM, but claim that the
>> absolute
>> maximum should be 5000 without serious modifications (kevlar comm wrap,
>> ceramic bearings etc), which seems reasonable for a motor of this
>> size. My
>> choice of rear end and tire diameter will be constrained by this.
>> Perhaps
>> 7000 RPM could be a comfortable planning figure for determining the
>> physical characteristics of the driveline...(?)
>>
>> FWIW, I'd like to have a rear end gear setup for racing that allows me
>> to
>> hit redline at 110-120mph or so, and another for street driving that
>> maxes
>> out at around 75mph for higher RPMs and better efficiency (with the
>> side
>> effect of harder launches). I've got the formulas in a spreadsheet,
>> but of
>> course the ratios I choose will depend on the wheels and tires I end up
>> with.
>>
>>>
>>> Some platings affect the fatigue strength. In general, I wouldn't do a
>>> plating. There should be grease most any place there will be splines,
>>> so I don't think there is a reason to plate. And all the other
>>> drivetrain parts will likely be steel or painted steel, wo why be
>>> different.
>>
>> Or aluminum, or carbon fiber. :o) At any rate, it doesn't seem
>> necessary. One process I might be interested in is cryo-hardening; I
>> understand it is helpful in increasing abrasion resistance which might
>> be
>> helpful for the splines, and has some strengthening aspects as well
>> (though the extent of this is debated). Do you have any information or
>> experience with this?
>>
>> --chris
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Seth
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 23, 2005, at 2:21 AM, Christopher Robison wrote:
>>>
>>>> Seth Allen said:
>>>>> Ok, before I start, I will make a few assumptions and such:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1: You don't want to greatly increase cost, so a material that
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> need a rough machining, heat treat and grind to size is desirable
>>>>
>>>> I agree with this (I've got plenty of other parts of the truck that
>>>> are
>>>> also demanding my money), though I'm not sure even what kind of
>>>> neighborhood to shoot for. Am I looking at a thousand bucks no matter
>>>> what
>>>> I do, or am I just trying to save a hundred or so? I've already
>>>> spent
>>>> a
>>>> few grand; a couple hundred well-placed dollars aren't so much of an
>>>> issue, but adding half the cost of the motor would be difficult.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> 2: You need some plunge on the output
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what this means. Are you referring to the need for a
>>>> slip
>>>> yoke, or sliding element somewhere along the driveline? If so, yes --
>>>> I am
>>>> not willing to lock down the rear end (at least not permanently); I
>>>> need
>>>> to allow for some suspension travel.
>>>>
>>>>> 3: a standard interface is nice
>>>>
>>>> I have bought from Inland Empire in the past; they make a wide
>>>> variety
>>>> of
>>>> slip yokes. In general though, yes, standard == good.
>>>>
>>>>> 4: you want it sized for fatigue life at peak torque (many dragstrip
>>>>> runs)
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. The motor will be heavy and expensive to ship, making the
>>>> cost
>>>> of
>>>> replacing the shaft pretty high, if I'm to have Netgain doing it.
>>>> Warfield
>>>> has a location in Dallas I'm told, but they don't work on the Warps.
>>>> All
>>>> in all, I'd like the shaft to last. :o) I'm willing to spend a
>>>> little
>>>> more now to help with this.
>>>>
>>>>> 5: you will not be getting it plated
>>>>
>>>> I can't say without more information. What would be the benefit of
>>>> plating, and with what material? Is it expensive? Would it be worth
>>>> it? If
>>>> you're talking about aesthetics (chrome plating or whatever), then
>>>> no.
>>>> I
>>>> just don't want it rusting. :o)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If all this is right, then a suggestion for a steel might be a
>>>>> pre-hardened AISI 4140 which is fairly common and fairly easy to
>>>>> machine. It won't be fully hard, but you won't have to do the heat
>>>>> treat and grind to size.
>>>>
>>>> I will make a note of this -- thank you!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As for an output. I have done standard yokes with slip joint
>>>>> driveshafts for trucks. Not sexy, but they work. But your torque is
>>>>> actually quite low if this is direct drive to the rear diff.
>>>>
>>>> Compared to the potential if I had a transmission, yes, the torque is
>>>> pretty low. It seemed high to me, but that was during my search for a
>>>> suitable manual transmission. On the other hand, the existing
>>>> driveshaft
>>>> on my truck probably doesn't even see a third as much torque,
>>>> flooring
>>>> it
>>>> in first gear. The input shaft on my transmission is only rated for
>>>> 175
>>>> ft-lbs; I don't have the ratios handy but output torque can't be too
>>>> spectacular. In fact, in 1st I guess I probably get less peak torque
>>>> at
>>>> the *wheels* today than I'll eventually get out of this motor. In
>>>> that
>>>> sense, it's not so bad. :o)
>>>>
>>>>> A CV joint
>>>>> can easily handle this torque and requires no alignment of the yokes
>>>>> or
>>>>> concern over driveshaft angle. A CV flange on the output of the
>>>>> motor
>>>>> with whay would normally be an IRS halfshaft could work quite well.
>>>>
>>>> I am not quite familiar with the setup you're referring to. Is it
>>>> possible
>>>> to get something like this that is long enough, and lightweight? I
>>>> have
>>>> been assuming the need for a traditional driveshaft and a slip-yoke
>>>> on
>>>> the
>>>> motor, in part because of the arrangement of the motor and
>>>> differential.
>>>> I'm planning on putting the motor under the passenger compartment,
>>>> between
>>>> the seats, where the transmission is now. I would put it further
>>>> back,
>>>> but
>>>> I'd like to put battery boxes between the frame rails. I've been
>>>> planning
>>>> on using a large diameter aluminum or carbon fiber shaft between the
>>>> battery boxes to reduce spinning mass. Can I have this same
>>>> arrangement
>>>> with CV joints?
>>>>
>>>> When you speak of CV joints, I'm imagining the three rollers at the
>>>> end of
>>>> a shaft which fits in a cup with three deep corresponding grooves,
>>>> allowing both the CV torque transfer as well as a small amount of
>>>> sliding
>>>> motion. Is this the sort of thing you're referring to?
>>>>
>>>>> It
>>>>> is what I would do, but some people really refer U-joints.
>>>>
>>>> At this point, I don't think I have enough knowledge to have a valid
>>>> preference. I have come to certain conclusions based on what I've
>>>> learned
>>>> so far, but of course nothing is really concluded until I start
>>>> actually
>>>> acquiring the parts. Until then, the more I can learn, the better.
>>>> I'm
>>>> OK
>>>> with CV joints (actually, I like the idea of the smooth torque
>>>> transfer,
>>>> and not having to worry about matching angles and such), I just don't
>>>> know
>>>> what else about my driveline plans would have to change.
>>>>
>>>>> If that is
>>>>> the case, then at www.roadranger.com there are loads of U-joint
>>>>> specs
>>>>> there. ANd they will specify the spline options. Let me know what
>>>>> your
>>>>> preference is (CV joint or U-joint) and we can wade through the
>>>>> options
>>>>> and once a spline is found, see if it will work. Your torque is so
>>>>> low
>>>>> that with half-hard 4140 and an easily cut involute spline on a ~2"
>>>>> diameter that I think there will be no problem with fatigue life,
>>>>> even
>>>>> after effects like corrosion are figured in.
>>>>
>>>> What are the corrosion properties of 4140? What kind of degradation
>>>> can I
>>>> expect, mechanically and aesthetically, assuming this will be
>>>> subjected to
>>>> water and road grime? For the most part though, this sounds like
>>>> what
>>>> I'm
>>>> looking for. Can we say that 1144 is out of the picture? I
>>>> understand
>>>> it
>>>> responds well to heat treating, though I don't know if this will give
>>>> me
>>>> what I want.
>>>>
>>>> I will see what info I can dig up on CV joints used in this
>>>> application.
>>>> Although I'm hesitant about using techniques that aren't popular in
>>>> racing, I realize the operating parameters here are a bit different
>>>> and
>>>> may call for an unusual solution. Mainly, if we can plan a driveline
>>>> that's lightweight, can span from the cab to the differential, can
>>>> tolerate the torque and the RPM (I'll be running a 5.0-5.3 or so rear
>>>> end
>>>> ratio, not quite sure yet), then I won't have much rational cause to
>>>> disagree.
>>>>
>>>> --chris
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Robison wrote:
> At any rate, perhaps CV joints would be a better fit for that reason --
> being designed mainly for FWD half shafts, the assumption is to be able to
> handle the full torque at the wheels...
I wouldn't use CV Joints. Take a look at these rated at 300hp, 500,
and 500+ and the prices just for example:
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=161754&prmenbr=361
Granted, that is for two of them but still..
> I've talked to the folks at Inland Empire (iedls.com) over the phone, and
> they say they can make me an aluminum or carbon fiber shaft set up
The thing about carbon fiber drive shafts is, yes, the length of the
tube is carbon fiber. What are the ends? Aluminum? How do they
attach aluminum to carbon fiber? With some sort of epoxy?
I've seen quite a few pictures of exploded CF drive shafts and
aluminum ones over the years. Cause was most often from the use of a
manual transmission(think sitting at the line with the motor humming
at 6,000rpm and dumping the clutch) and automatic cars with a
transbrake.
I'd get this drive shaft and be done with it:
http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/html/nitrous_ready.html
It also includes the U-Joints and transmission slip yoke for that price.
Ask them what it's made out of and how much it weighs compared to
their HD Aluminum model. See if they have a slip yoke that will fit
your motor shaft.
Or there is the 2 piece drive shaft option..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 12:17 AM
Subject: Got my taperlock hub off!
When I put my taperlock hub on, and it was off about 2 thousandths.
So that means your seeing 4 on the dial indicator , not to bad .
My fault, I should have used the dial indicator as I put it on, not
after I was done tightening. I wanted to take it off and try again to
do better (I'm presuming you can differentially tighten bolts to
adjust the fit a bit on a taperlock).
I don't think this will give you that much ,
it hasn't for me , you might want to check your key, I had that make a
difference onece.
OK, loosen bolts, strike with hammer, hmmm, still stuck!
there should be some holes with threads that you can put a bolt in and
seperate the hup by tightening the bolts
> Impact wrench on gear puller (the short impacts are resisted by
inertia, so the motor shaft doesn't spin). Taperlock hub pops off!
Yay!
you might want to put 2 1/4 bolt holes in the hub for next time . or I
somtimes can use the bolt holes that hold the fly wheel ,
This gives me confidence my taperlock is going to hold on tight!
I've heard you can take the bolts out and they won't come lose , but never
tryed it .
I'm going to have the flywheel and pressure plate balanced as a unit,
spin everything up to check for vibration, and use the trick of
adding and moving washers to minimize any residual vibration.
put some J W on it :-)
I have filed the hub ( taper part ) just a little to get it in line , dosn't
take much , . I'll bet mike brown is shaking his head,
So get the taperlock on straight, make some critical measurements,
make the adapter plates and spacer, make a motor mount, bolt it all
together, and I'm ready to slowly creep about on a 12 volt battery!
That'll be a day to celebrate!
That will , just keep on .
I try to get my daughter to come on my " first rides ", and hold two wires
together to make it go .
steve clunn
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ohnojoe wrote:
> I'm having a problem with my Curtis Dc/Dc converter. It used to read
> 14 volts like it was stuck. I did lower the voltage of the charger
> and then the voltmeter showed a much lower reading 12-11.
That implies that the DC/DC is no longer working.
You lowered the voltage of the *charger* and it affected the DC/DC? Why?
Is your charger powering only the DC/DC? A charger isn't designed to do
this.
Or, is your charger connected to your main battery pack; and the DC/DC
is also connected to this same main battery pack (the normal way to do
it)? In this case, it shouldn't matter what the charger is, or whether
it's turned on or not, or even connected.
> The input is 110 volts (8x13.75), however, the output is only 11.9
> volts. I thought that maybe the ceramic fuse was blowing. It is a
> Cehess 125 volt or less 8 amp fuse. I pulled it out and tried to
> find a new fuse but can only find glass fuses in town.
> Can I use the glass fuses?
You can check the old fuse with an ohmmeter (your multimeter on the Ohms
scale) to see if it is blown. If it has continuity, it is good.
The original was a ceramic fuse because they are rated to safely break a
DC circuit. The cheaper glass fuses are AC only, and can explode if
asked to break a DC circuit.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:57 AM 4/24/2005, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
My last 2 postings never showed up, so I'm testing to see if this works...
This is frustrating. My little test msg makes it, but my real message
doesn't.
I'll try putting the real text here to see if it makes it...
Title: Firefly, cause of the fire
A long, long, time ago, Sparrow #164, known as "Firefly" had an electrical
fire.
I ended up with the bird, and have finally started work on repairs.
In the process of getting to the melted wires, I found that the fire was
NOT caused by the "brake line against the battery post" problem.
It was caused by the "Battery cable rubbing against a bracket" problem,
combined with (of course) the non-isolated HV wiring.
http://www.casadelgato.com/Gallery/thumbnails.php?album=61
As a minor side issue, I also found that a fair number of the bolts holding
things together had worked rather loose.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To anyone interested,
A friend of mine worked on this project for several months it is for all
means and purposes done, but needs a final once-over on the wiring, just to
make certain.
It has (2) 9" ADCs, (2) DCP 1000A controllers, and a string or two of 144V
Hawkers. (I am going from memory) He wants $8K for it, as his business is
eating all of his time.
Check on the EV Trading Post for more details; he's the guy in Ashland, OR.
peace,
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philip Marino wrote:
> Can you add three tapped holes in your hub to make it easy to remove?
>
> Look at my hub and bushing:
>
> http://nick.homelinux.net/phil_echo_b_u/EchoPictures/Echo_adapter_5.jpg
>
> The bushing came with three tapped holes in the flange, but , since, when
> assembled, the flange is inaaccesible against the motor, they can't be used.
>
> So, I added three tapped holes in the hub for removal.
If I had a hub without those tapped holes, could I remove the hub
using a puller like this?
http://www.mechaps.com/mps/mcf1/bilder/3%20JAW%20GEAR%20PULLER%20SET.gif
http://altura.speedera.net/ccimg.catalogcity.com/200000/207900/207937/Products/10692594.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts said:
> The thing about carbon fiber drive shafts is, yes, the length of the
> tube is carbon fiber. What are the ends? Aluminum? How do they
> attach aluminum to carbon fiber? With some sort of epoxy?
>
> I've seen quite a few pictures of exploded CF drive shafts and
> aluminum ones over the years. Cause was most often from the use of a
> manual transmission(think sitting at the line with the motor humming
> at 6,000rpm and dumping the clutch) and automatic cars with a
> transbrake.
>
> I'd get this drive shaft and be done with it:
>
> http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/html/nitrous_ready.html
I've looked at this before; while I'm sure it would be more than strong
enough, I also am guessing that this is a very heavy steel shaft. Maybe
worth it in cases where dumping the clutch can generate enormous momentary
shock, but since I won't have a clutch, I'm not sure this would be
necessary.
Compare with this (see the bottom of the page):
http://iedls.com/driveshafts.html
With the manufacturer's claim of 14,000 RPM (!!!) and 3900 ft-lbs, I would
feel pretty comfortable putting this under my truck.
It's worth noting that they don't mention how the end is bonded to the
tube. On the other hand, given how far their numbers exceed my expected
torque and RPM, hopefully I don't have to be very concerned.
Also interesting is the use of 1350 series U-joints on the Denny's shaft.
I've been thinking about 1410 because it was suggested to me, but maybe
this really is overkill. Stepping down to 1350 would save a little weight
I guess.
I will call Denny's and IE tomorrow, and get weight estimates on their
respective products. Maybe the difference won't be what I'm thinking, and
the Denny's shaft will turn out to be the better deal. I might as well try
to start figuring out how long a shaft I'll need, though accuracy will be
difficult until I get the new rear end built and installed, and decide how
I'm going to mount the motor.
--chris
--- End Message ---
