EV Digest 4315
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Contactor controller, Was:RE: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Treadmill motor that could be used for EV accesory power
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Very small electric vehicle batteries
by Ken Olum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Very small electric vehicle batteries
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Electric push mower project begun
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) A patented idea to switch batteries
by "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Contactor controller, Was:RE: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Curtis 1204 has almost beaten me.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Electric push mower project begun
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Electric push mower project begun
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: One step up from AGMs?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Contactor controller, Was:RE: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Curtis 1204 has almost beaten me.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Fwd: [BMBB] Norwalk, CT ABB-EV Attempts 300mph May 5 !!
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Need help with Curtis 1204 Controller
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Contactor controller, Was:RE: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: A patented idea to switch batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 5:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Contactor controller, Was:RE: Mechanical PWM Controllers
James,
But you could use
12V+resistor as first step (instead of a higher voltage as in the previous
example), which would significantly reduce the power dissapation of the
resistor.
Do you know how to fabricate a resistor for experimentation?
(Or where to purchase them?)
A 1 ohm resistor at 12 Volts would allow 12 Amps (assuming zero at motor and
wires). I wonder if 144 Watts would get 400 pounds moving?
This may be a solution:
>From Ebay
Designed as a surge or ballast resistor, this unit consists of 3 independent
1 Ohm wirewound resistors wound on a substantial ceramic plate with screw
type connection terminals. We estimate the wattage rating to be about 300
Watts. Probably meant for use with 3 phase motor starting systems to limit
surge current, the resistor has many other uses. Wiring the 3 resistors in
series would give you 3 Ohms or 0.3 Ohms if all wired in parallel. Use as
dummy load for testing batteries, power supplies, amplifiers etc. With
single resistors of this power rating costing around �18.00 each! This could
be the time to pick up a bargain.
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
in response to :
"
The point was not just the size in inches, but also the weight. Given the
size and the strength of the rare earth magnets, the requirements for iron
for good magnetic coupling and the applied torque, you end up with a
fairly heavy generator. At a guess 25-30 lbs or more."
Why do you need iron for "good magnetic coupling" if you are using rare earth magnets? Isn't their magnetic density high enough to use an air-gap design. Also if 2 sets of thin magnets are on either side of a stator, can't you scrap most of the back iron too? The added benifit here would be no cogging or need to slant the armature to minimize it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James,
Already have the charger :-)
You are correct about the 50% drawing it does show a flaw in the
design, I'll have to work on that. I like your idea and will work on it,
i tried something like that earlier.
About the edge contact, remember the comm is spinning at 3600 rpm
and it takes time for the inductance of the motor to accept the current
so I think, hope, it will work just like a transistor. It might be seen
as a bad short at such low switching frequencies. I wonder if it would
make a bad street controller and a good bracket race controller. Adjust
limiter and take a run, adjust a tad more for next run, ever improving
without "breaking out"
>Ideally your "fixed" brush or the throttle to moving brush ratio is
altered by motor RPMs. In the days of steam, double-breasted sandshoes
and leather flywheels that'd be a centrifical >actuator on the end of
the motor. That way flooring it when stationary would only bring up 40%
or so PWM, increasing as the motor RPMs built up. How do you think you'd
go >building something like that?!
by making the stationary brush rigging also capable of moving. It will
be pulled away reducing the duty cycle as current accros a shunt pulls
on a solenoid against a spring. The spring has a nut to adjust it's
preload for fine tuning the current limit.
mind you, these are merly mind games at the moment. I did buy some 5/8 x
1-3/16 brushes to play with, but finding a comm bar setup that is not
lots of narrow bars, is a chalenge.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's not very small batteries, but very small vehicles, as in the
kind for three-year-olds. Does anyone know what is inside a
Powerwheels gray 12V battery? Is it just a gel battery with a circuit
breaker? The odd thing about these batteries is that the charger
connects to different terminals from the car. I'm not sure what the
point is if they are just connected inside.
Thanks.
Ken Olum
(Solectria Force, Electric Ox, Powerwheels Jeep)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They seem to be Gel batteries with fuses. I have some old power wheels
batteries which were real lead acid with a resivoir on the side. That's
why they could not be charged upside down.
I recommend removing the miserable little FP battery and installing a
Hawker Genesis 26ah AGM one. Our Power Wheels is used by my 4 year old
to drive her 5 year old brother about 3/4 of a mile to school (with mom
walking along). It can go there, back, there back, around the yard, back
to the field, all over the place on a single charge.
Never forget though to install a fuse right at the battery.
Chris
Ken Olum wrote:
That's not very small batteries, but very small vehicles, as in the
kind for three-year-olds. Does anyone know what is inside a
Powerwheels gray 12V battery? Is it just a gel battery with a circuit
breaker? The odd thing about these batteries is that the charger
connects to different terminals from the car. I'm not sure what the
point is if they are just connected inside.
Thanks.
Ken Olum
(Solectria Force, Electric Ox, Powerwheels Jeep)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, so I have this old mower with the big 12" bicycle style wheels in
the back and more "standard" wheels up front.
I have removed all the gas engine stuff and have made a mounting plate
for my motor out of an old 10" carbide tipped saw blade. (Wife said to
leave the teeth on for that "Klingon" look).
I'll post pictures at some point.
I now have 3 12v 7ah gell cell batteries out of a decomissioned UPS.
They charge up nicely and seem to be ok, at least as test batteries.
I'm going to wire them in series to power my motor which is a single
deck motor from an Elec-Trac front deck style mower.
I have a heavy DC switch that I'm going to use to turn the beast on and
off, and I am connecting the motor to the batteries with an anderson
connector. This connector will need to have a fuse between it and the
motor. My question is how big of a fuse do I need and what gauge of
wire should I use?
The mower itself is a 20" mower. I know that the Elec-Trak motors
normally turn a smaller blade than that. I don't want to damage the
mower, so I could put the same blade on it as the elec-tracks use, but
I'd rather the blade fit the deck better. Would I do harm to the
blade/motor if I put a 19 or 20" blade on it?
This mower is just going to be for trim and touch up mowing. The
anderson connectors are so I can plug it into my elec-trak with a drop
cord (about 20-30 feet long) to get longer run times as I go round my
property doing touch-up work.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Thanks for your response James.
Yes, I agree. James Massey has been doing a wonderful job answering your
questions.
> My philosophy on tires may work here. Rotating tires to get them
> to all wear out at the same time is a tactic used to get you to
> buy 4 tires at a time.
Agreed; cars handle better when all tires are the same. Mismatched sets
can have odd handling. Newer cars with ABS brakes will complain about
low tire pressures with mismatched tires (they are sensing the
rotational speed of all 4 tires, and complain if they aren't identical).
> Could this philosophy work with battery packs?
It could, if you don't mind the labor of constantly swapping a batter or
two at a time. Also, you would need an automated system to monitor and
charge batteries individually. Monitoring so you know when and which
battery is failing. Individual charging so you can keep mismatched
batteries in balance.
> On the mechanical PWM controller, the scooter motor is constant rpm,
> equivilant to the PWM frequency.
If you are really "hot" on doing a mechanical PWM, then I would not do
it with a motor and commutator. I would build it as a giant version of
the old "vibrator" used in inverters before transistors were invented.
I would arrange it so the "on" time is fixed, and vary the "off" time to
accomplish PWM. Then, with a fixed "on" time, use an LC network so the
voltage at the contact just happens to pass thru zero at the instants
you open the switch. This will result in minimal arcing at the switch.
I'm better at electrical than mechanical; so if it were me and I wanted
to save money, I'd copy the design of an older successful EV with a
contactor controller. If you want to build something, build the
contactors :-)
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Note: Usually each leg has 1 more battery than the previous.
In this case it is for 4 - 12 V.
The starting battery can be switched every so often with the middle one to
balance things out.
Inventor Mark Thomasson
You can substitute diodes for a few relays.
He opens the main contactor prior to switching to completely eliminate
arcing at the cheap 70 amp relays $1.20 each.
He uses this method on his motorcycle.
Just passing it along FWIW.
BoyntonStu
____
/ \
/ \ \
_____| Motor |____ \__
| \ / |
| \____/ Safety |
| Disconnect |
| --- Main
| --- Contactor
| | | |
|--||----||||------------|
| | | | |
| R5 | 24v |
| | ---
| |---------||---| --- R4
| | |
| R6 | |
| | | |
|--||-----||-------------|
| | | |
| R1 | 12v |
| | ---
| |---------||---| --- R2
| | |
| R3 | |
| | | |
|---------||-------------|
|
12v
Switch logic Batteries
In use
Speed R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 Volts 12v 12v 24v disconnect
0 0 x
1 x x x 12 x x x
2 x x x 24 x x x x
3 x x x 36 x x x x
4 x x 48 x x x x
Charging x x x 24 x x x
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stu or Jan wrote:
> Do you know how to fabricate a resistor for experimentation?
I originally fabricated my own starting resistors from steel banding
strap, wrapped around old ceramic powerline insulators. It was basically
6 feet of strap, bent into a 3 foot hairpin. The two ends connected to
my 2/0 welding cable. Don't drill holes in the strap, or it becomes the
weak point that will fail; I pinched it between two pieces of 1/8" thick
copper, bolted together, with the ring terminal on a 2/0 wire on one of
them. The center insulator was pulled snug with a spring; the banding
strap can get red hot and considerably increases in length.
It was cheap, but not very pretty or reliable. I've since switched to
commercially made resistors, which are much easier and more durable.
> (Or where to purchase them?)
Many companies sell large power resistors. I've had good luck with ones
from C&H Sales <www.candhsales.com>. Most are under $20.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've always wanted to make an old style (1908) controller, but lack the machine
shop and time.
I'd suggest looking at the contact controllers in some old books.
In one book I've got, "Self propelled Vehicles", copywrite 1908, they show a
couple speed control boxes that are big frankestein levers that moves a set of
contacts through an arc of other contacts.
This affected the battery switching without the contactors(relays), and all the
contacts where replaceable.
Mad Mike
Using a Curtis controller out of practicality
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 04:51 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Mechanical PWM Controllers
>
.. snip ...
> I'm better at electrical than mechanical; so if it were me and I wanted
> to save money, I'd copy the design of an older successful EV with a
> contactor controller. If you want to build something, build the
> contactors :-)
> --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where are you located? Maybe someone is close to your area. Lawrence
Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:18 PM
Subject: Curtis 1204 has almost beaten me.
I am very frustrated in trying to get this semiconductor brick to act like
a
controller.
The only thing that I don't have that I see in the Manual is a 250 ohm
resistor across the main switch.
Is there a starting procedure that I am not doing right?
This is what I have tried:
Send 48 Volts to the key terminal.
Adjust the pot to almost zero ohms.
Switch the battery on.
Turn up the pot.
NO JOY!
Hints/helps/suggestions pretty please.
Boyntonstu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:20:15 -0400, James Jarrett
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Ok, so I have this old mower with the big 12" bicycle style wheels in
>the back and more "standard" wheels up front.
>
>I have removed all the gas engine stuff and have made a mounting plate
>for my motor out of an old 10" carbide tipped saw blade. (Wife said to
>leave the teeth on for that "Klingon" look).
>
>I'll post pictures at some point.
>
>I now have 3 12v 7ah gell cell batteries out of a decomissioned UPS.
>They charge up nicely and seem to be ok, at least as test batteries.
That won't do too much mowing, unfortunately. Using the rule of thumb
of 1kw in to get 1hp out, at 36 volts you'll be drawing 1000/36 = 28
amps. For a 7ah battery, that's an almost 4C discharge rate. Using
my handy-dandy Peukert spreadsheet, I plug those numbers in and see
that at that discharge rate to 80% DOD there are 2ah available which
gives a run time of 0.07 hours or 4.2 minutes.
You can download the spreadsheet from my web site in case you want to
run other numbers. I assumed your motor would only draw one HP while
cutting. I suspect it will be more.
>
>I'm going to wire them in series to power my motor which is a single
>deck motor from an Elec-Trac front deck style mower.
>
>I have a heavy DC switch that I'm going to use to turn the beast on and
>off, and I am connecting the motor to the batteries with an anderson
>connector. This connector will need to have a fuse between it and the
>motor. My question is how big of a fuse do I need and what gauge of
>wire should I use?
I wouldn't worry about a fuse with those little batteries. If you
really want a fuse I'd probably go with something in the 80-100 amp
range. Assuming my numbers above are pretty close to your situation,
wire it with #6 or #8.
>
>The mower itself is a 20" mower. I know that the Elec-Trak motors
>normally turn a smaller blade than that. I don't want to damage the
>mower, so I could put the same blade on it as the elec-tracks use, but
>I'd rather the blade fit the deck better. Would I do harm to the
>blade/motor if I put a 19 or 20" blade on it?
Not with those batteries. They won't last long enough to overheat the
motor. You've probably already realized this but if you put a smaller
blade on then the tips won't reach to the outer edge of the deck.
There will be a gap of grass the width of that distance that you can't
trim. You need the deck and blade matched.
You might want to check your local outdoor equipment shops. I'm
working on a similar project and I got a small deck (16" I think)
given to me out of a boneyard.
If you're only trimming with this mower, I recommend the smallest deck
possible to reduce windage drag on the blade.
>
>This mower is just going to be for trim and touch up mowing. The
>anderson connectors are so I can plug it into my elec-trak with a drop
>cord (about 20-30 feet long) to get longer run times as I go round my
>property doing touch-up work.
>
>Any suggestions would be appreciated.
I think you'll be on the drop cord most of the time with the setup you
propose. You're going to need some pretty hefty cable to get that much
low voltage, high current power out there to the other end of the
extension cord.
The problem is, if you try to use large enough batteries for useful
run time then the mower is going to be too heavy to comfortably use.
Let me suggest an alternative. What I'm doing.
Someone mentioned a week or two ago someone posted a link to this
motor:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005042611262433&catname=&qty=1&item=10-1938
This is an approx 1.5hp electric mower motor. It contains a series
motor and a gear reduction train. I ordered 4 of 'em. OK, so I like
to have spares.
This is a pretty decent little motor for the price. Of course I took
one apart before running it in true nerd tradition. Nice big gears
and thrust bearings. Ball on the motor, large brass sleeves on the
output shaft. The sleeve bearing is good, as it will take a lot more
impact abuse than a ball of the same size. I'll post pictures when I
get time.
What I'm doing is using this 120 volt motor on the mower deck and
powering it either from an extension cord close in or a battery power
pack out away from the house.
My power pack consists of a pair of golf cart batteries, a 1500 watt
inverter ($90 from Sam's) and a Schumacher "40 amp" smart charger
(about $90 from WallyWorld) all mounted on a large wheeled hand truck.
I roll this thing out to the operating area and connect it to the
mower or chainsaw or whatever with up to about 100 ft of light gauge
(16) cord.
Using the 10:1 ratio for a 12/120 volt inverter, 8 amps out requires
about 80 amps in at 12 volts. The 225ah cart batteries will run that
load for 1.4 hours to 80% DOD. I can guarantee that I'll be tired of
mowing or sawing before the batteries go dead!
Since you have the Elek-Trak already, you could build the power pack
on a little 1 axle garden trailer that you could tow behind the
tractor.
The nice thing about the power pack system architecture is that it can
be used to power all sorts of other stuff when you're not mowing.
Chainsaw, leaf blower, weed eater, circle saw, lights, stereo, etc.
You could even put some charge in your Elek-Trak if you run it down
out in the field :-)
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just thought I would make a comment here, before it gets too off topic. The
RoboMower has a set of three small (9" or so) blades, under a smooth deck.
The blades are all geared together I assume, and their paths overlap. This
might be a good alternative to the one large blade idea. Afterall, why
reinvent the wheel?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Electric push mower project begun
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:20:15 -0400, James Jarrett
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ok, so I have this old mower with the big 12" bicycle style wheels in
the back and more "standard" wheels up front.
I have removed all the gas engine stuff and have made a mounting plate
for my motor out of an old 10" carbide tipped saw blade. (Wife said to
leave the teeth on for that "Klingon" look).
I'll post pictures at some point.
I now have 3 12v 7ah gell cell batteries out of a decomissioned UPS.
They charge up nicely and seem to be ok, at least as test batteries.
That won't do too much mowing, unfortunately. Using the rule of thumb
of 1kw in to get 1hp out, at 36 volts you'll be drawing 1000/36 = 28
amps. For a 7ah battery, that's an almost 4C discharge rate. Using
my handy-dandy Peukert spreadsheet, I plug those numbers in and see
that at that discharge rate to 80% DOD there are 2ah available which
gives a run time of 0.07 hours or 4.2 minutes.
You can download the spreadsheet from my web site in case you want to
run other numbers. I assumed your motor would only draw one HP while
cutting. I suspect it will be more.
I'm going to wire them in series to power my motor which is a single
deck motor from an Elec-Trac front deck style mower.
I have a heavy DC switch that I'm going to use to turn the beast on and
off, and I am connecting the motor to the batteries with an anderson
connector. This connector will need to have a fuse between it and the
motor. My question is how big of a fuse do I need and what gauge of
wire should I use?
I wouldn't worry about a fuse with those little batteries. If you
really want a fuse I'd probably go with something in the 80-100 amp
range. Assuming my numbers above are pretty close to your situation,
wire it with #6 or #8.
The mower itself is a 20" mower. I know that the Elec-Trak motors
normally turn a smaller blade than that. I don't want to damage the
mower, so I could put the same blade on it as the elec-tracks use, but
I'd rather the blade fit the deck better. Would I do harm to the
blade/motor if I put a 19 or 20" blade on it?
Not with those batteries. They won't last long enough to overheat the
motor. You've probably already realized this but if you put a smaller
blade on then the tips won't reach to the outer edge of the deck.
There will be a gap of grass the width of that distance that you can't
trim. You need the deck and blade matched.
You might want to check your local outdoor equipment shops. I'm
working on a similar project and I got a small deck (16" I think)
given to me out of a boneyard.
If you're only trimming with this mower, I recommend the smallest deck
possible to reduce windage drag on the blade.
This mower is just going to be for trim and touch up mowing. The
anderson connectors are so I can plug it into my elec-trak with a drop
cord (about 20-30 feet long) to get longer run times as I go round my
property doing touch-up work.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
I think you'll be on the drop cord most of the time with the setup you
propose. You're going to need some pretty hefty cable to get that much
low voltage, high current power out there to the other end of the
extension cord.
The problem is, if you try to use large enough batteries for useful
run time then the mower is going to be too heavy to comfortably use.
Let me suggest an alternative. What I'm doing.
Someone mentioned a week or two ago someone posted a link to this
motor:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005042611262433&catname=&qty=1&item=10-1938
This is an approx 1.5hp electric mower motor. It contains a series
motor and a gear reduction train. I ordered 4 of 'em. OK, so I like
to have spares.
This is a pretty decent little motor for the price. Of course I took
one apart before running it in true nerd tradition. Nice big gears
and thrust bearings. Ball on the motor, large brass sleeves on the
output shaft. The sleeve bearing is good, as it will take a lot more
impact abuse than a ball of the same size. I'll post pictures when I
get time.
What I'm doing is using this 120 volt motor on the mower deck and
powering it either from an extension cord close in or a battery power
pack out away from the house.
My power pack consists of a pair of golf cart batteries, a 1500 watt
inverter ($90 from Sam's) and a Schumacher "40 amp" smart charger
(about $90 from WallyWorld) all mounted on a large wheeled hand truck.
I roll this thing out to the operating area and connect it to the
mower or chainsaw or whatever with up to about 100 ft of light gauge
(16) cord.
Using the 10:1 ratio for a 12/120 volt inverter, 8 amps out requires
about 80 amps in at 12 volts. The 225ah cart batteries will run that
load for 1.4 hours to 80% DOD. I can guarantee that I'll be tired of
mowing or sawing before the batteries go dead!
Since you have the Elek-Trak already, you could build the power pack
on a little 1 axle garden trailer that you could tow behind the
tractor.
The nice thing about the power pack system architecture is that it can
be used to power all sorts of other stuff when you're not mowing.
Chainsaw, leaf blower, weed eater, circle saw, lights, stereo, etc.
You could even put some charge in your Elek-Trak if you run it down
out in the field :-)
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome to battery Hell.
You can afford Lead, the rest you need goverment funding to afford.
NIcads from Saft are a nice half way.
NimH are available but at quite a steep price.
Stay a way from Evercells. They went out of buisness and left a lot of us
hanging. The last version of thier MB100s were a disaster. So... stay way
until they do come back and clean up thier reputation.
The Chemistry is Good. The EVERTrols were nice if you figured out the
charge tricks. Some are still around. I have 1.
Get a set of lead and you atleast get on the road.
Rich
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:25 PM
Subject: One step up from AGMs?
>
> What battery chemistries are available now with Energy density and price
between PbSO4 and Li-Ion? That is, who is currently selling what?
>
> BTW, I spoke with an Evercel person today. They said Evercel is not
producing any NiZN batts now but will decide within 90 days if they will
restart production. They also say nobody else is producing rechargable NiZn
batts.
>
> I've also browsed SAFT site -- haven't called for prices and availability
yet.
>
> What other options are there?
>
>
> Mark Freidberg
> OEVA member in Portland, Oregon.
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Speed up your surfing with NetZero HiSpeed.
> Now includes pop-up blocker!
> Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.netzero.com/surf to sign up today!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Thanks again.
I assume that the starting time that the resistor passes current is less
than 10 seconds. If you limit the current to ~30 amps at 12 V would a
100Watt resistor sustain the load without destroying itself?
Boyntonstu
Many companies sell large power resistors. I've had good luck with ones
from C&H Sales <www.candhsales.com>. Most are under $20.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Looks like he has that jumpered out. That's the safety switch. Normally
it carries the key signal. When the pot is at zero it also switches off the
pack voltage to the controller. LR.......
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/potbox.shtml
How about that "feature" that won't let the controller turn on if the
pot box is not all the way in the off position?
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--- Begin Message ---
> From:
> Ken Graber
> ken.j.graber@ us.abb.com
> ABB Inc., Low Voltage Drives
> 262-780-3873
>
> ABB-powered e car Attempts 300mph on May 5!!
> Wow! -
> Early morning, May 5, the world will get its first peak at what could be the
> fastest electric vehicle on the face of the earth. Streaking down a
> straightaway in Nevada, the car, powered solely via the environmentally
> clean alternative electricity (from a bank of batteries), will attempt to
> set a new electric vehicle land-speed record (which currently stands at 245
> mph). The objective is for e=motion to achieve speeds in excess of 300 mph
> (400 feet per second)! See http://www.abb.com/e=motion
> Full story below
>
> Ken Graber
> ABB Inc., Low Voltage Drives
> W: 262-780-3873
>
> # # #
>
> ABB is the world's largest manufacturer of electric motors and drives.
>
> ABB Inc
> US Head Office
> 501 Merritt 7
> Norwalk, CT 06851
> 203-750-2200 Fax: 203-750-2263
> http://www.abb.us
>
> For Immediate Release
>
> ABB-powered electric car attempts to break land speed record in United
> States
>
> (ABB e=motion team confident of success in Nevada on May 5)
>
> Norwalk, CT, April 25, 2005. . . A high-speed electrical car, powered by ABB
> motors and drives, will attempt to break the land-speed record for an
> electrical vehicle on May 5 in Nevada, U.S.
>
> The 32-foot (10 meter) long, mustard-yellow ABB e=motion car will try to
> beat the current official FIA (F�d�ration Internationale d'Automobile)
> electric land-speed record of 245 mph (394 kph) and become the first-ever
> electrically powered vehicle to break the 300 mph (483 kph) barrier.
>
> The car, whose main sponsor is the global engineering company ABB, will make
> the record attempt on a closed, secured section of paved road near the city
> of West Wendover, northeastern Nevada.
>
> The FIA, the world's leading motor sports ruling body, will monitor and
> certify the attempt. To qualify as an official land speed record under FIA
> rules, the car must perform two recorded runs at better than 252 mph over a
> distance of 0.622 miles (one kilometer).
>
> The e=motion car is the brainchild of Britons Mark Newby and Colin Fallows.
> It has already delivered spectacular acceleration during tests in the U.K.,
> easily reaching 146 mph (237 kph) in just 1,000 yards (914 meters) - the
> longest distance available to the team in the U.K. - and unofficially
> breaking the 139 mph U.K. record for an electric vehicle.
>
> "With this sort of performance, we're confident that our car will easily
> beat the existing electric car land speed record," says Newby.
>
> The ABB e=motion car has no mechanical gears ? acceleration is controlled
> entirely by ABB variable speed drives regulating two 50-horsepower electric
> motors from ABB. "ABB technology has put this car in the super-speed league,
> and demonstrates our unique ability to meet unusual technology challenges
> with a pioneering spirit," said Ron Kurtz, ABB U.S. spokesman.
>
> The current FIA electric car record is held by the White Lightning team from
> the U.S. Other record attempts have been made, but not under FIA rules.
>
> An ABB e=motion attempt to break the record on salt flats of Tunisia in 2004
> was postponed after the surface was deemed unsafe due to unusual weather
> conditions, but there are no such doubts about the road in Nevada.
>
> # # #
>
> Further information about the e=motion record attempt, including high-res
> pictures and additional technical detail, is available on ABB's Web site at:
> http://www.abb.com/e=motion.
>
> ABB e=motion: key technical data:
> An ABB industrial drive and two 50 horsepower AC motors will be used to
> power ABB e=motion.
> The motors produce a combined output of more than 500bhp (brake horsepower,
> i.e. power measured at a vehicle's crankshaft).
>
> As a comparison with gasoline-driven cars, the new Chevrolet Corvette
> launched this year is fitted with a 7.0-litre (427-cubic-inch) V8 engine
> that produces 500bhp.
>
> ABB's system uses a regenerative standard inverter from its ACS800 motor
> drives line to convert the 600V DC (direct current) output from the car's
> four packs of 52 lead-acid batteries into AC (alternating current) power for
> the two motors.
>
> To prevent overheating during the record attempt, each motor has been
> adapted to include a forced-ventilation system that is comprised of a series
> of 24-volt DC fans, to help keep the motors below their maximum operating
> temperature of 180�C (356�F). ABB sensors fitted to each motor winding
> provide real-time information about motor temperatures and help protect the
> motors.
>
> High torque for immediate acceleration:
> Fast acceleration is the key to the record attempt. For this reason, ABB's
> motor/drive system also uses the company's Direct Torque Control drive
> technology, which provides excellent control of motor torque, with full
> motor torque available even at zero speed.
>
> "Other challengers to the record commonly use gear-driven systems in their
> cars to achieve the fastest possible acceleration, whereas the technology
> we've supplied steadily controls torque across the whole speed range," says
> Frank Griffith, one of the ABB team who helped to develop the car's power
> system. "Although a geared vehicle can achieve 100 mph in a few seconds, its
> rate of acceleration falls away much more quickly compared to our system;
> this one will continue to accelerate even past the 300 mph mark, provided
> sufficient battery power is available."
>
> Design challenges in building the car:
> Newby and Fallows struggled for 18 months to find a company that could
> supply the equipment needed to power the car, before contacting ABB in
> November 2002.
>
> "Of the companies we originally approached, none could provide either the
> technology or expertise that justified a world record attempt of this
> magnitude," said Fallows who designed the car. "We initially approached ABB
> because we were aware of the company's profile in the world of electrical
> engineering. Its solution, based on standard industrial motors and drives,
> proved extremely compact, which was very important as we only had a limited
> amount of space available in the car."
>
> One of the biggest challenges was the need to simulate the vehicle dynamics
> and performance likely to be experienced during the record attempt without
> physically testing the car on a track.
>
> "Likely performance was modeled and calculated using a set of estimated
> conditions involving factors such as rolling resistance, drag and battery
> discharge rate," says Griffith. "Much of this information either did not
> exist or else had to be extrapolated from data found on the Internet."
>
> To help fine-tune the system's performance, ABB used data from the two
> independent four-channel data loggers incorporated within the drive. "The
> data loggers enabled us to improve the performance of our system in the same
> way as Formula One teams do with their cars," explains Steve Malpass, a
> member of the ABB design team. "One of the data loggers was set to a rapid
> sampling rate of one sample per millisecond to record all the actual events
> as they happened.
>
> "By setting the other logger to a slower rate, we were able to record
> information on trends that occurred throughout the test runs, which provided
> us with an overall picture of how the car was performing."
>
> Environmental benefits:
> ABB is the world's largest manufacturer of electric motors and drives. They
> are designed to be environmentally friendly, reducing energy costs for
> customers and sharply cutting emissions. The company's variable speed AC
> drives, installed around the world, cut global C02 emissions by an annual
> total of 68 million tons ? equivalent to the emissions of a country the size
> of Finland. The energy saved is annual equivalent to the output of ten
> average sized power plants.
>
> ABB has a massive installed base of these drives ? more than one million in
> the past 20 years.
>
> Attention news editors:
>
> On May 5, the latest information, as well as pictures and video footage of
> the attempt, will be available on the Web site -
> http://www.abb.com/e=motion
>
> Availability of pictures and footage will depend on the timing of the race
> and weather conditions. A satellite feed of film footage will be available
> via APTV.
>
> See high-res photos at:
> http://www.abb.com/global/abbzh/abbzh252.nsf/0/a8e70b800a91682f85256fdd00714a8b?OpenDocument
>
> ABB (http://www.abb.com) is a leader in power and automation technologies
> that enable utility and industry customers to improve performance while
> lowering environmental impact. The ABB Group of companies operates in around
> 100 countries and employs about 102,000 people. The company's U.S.
> operations employ nearly 10,000 in manufacturing and other facilities in 30
> states.
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Stu,
Make sure that the Battery Plus wire is connected to the B+ terminal on
the controller, the Battery Minus wire is connected to the B- terminal
on the controller, and the Motor Minus wire is connected to the M-
terminal on the controller. Measure the voltage at the KSI input to
make sure you are getting at least 8V. The Pot should probably be 0-5K
ohms - above 7K ohms will cause controller shutdown. Make sure that the
Pot has less than 50 ohms in the off position - if your controller is
equipped with the High Pedal Disable feature, the controller will not
start if it sees a throttle input before the KSI input has voltage. You
might have a controller that uses the reverse pot - 5k-0 ohms, in which
case you would need to change the pot anyway.
Good luck,
Patrick
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 4/22/05 3:41:37 AM >>>
I am doing something wrong.
This is my first experience with any controller.
It is a Curtis 1204 36-48 VDC 225AMP
I bought it used and when I could not make it work I sent it back to
be
tested.
They tried it in a golf cart and it worked.
Since this is my second 'DOA' from 2 different sources, I am pretty
sure
that it is me that is not working and not the controller.
It seemed simple enough:
Battery plus to Controller plus.
Battery minus to controller minus.
Motor plus to Controller plus.
Motor minus to 2nd Controller minus.
Center of 10k pot to control terminal #2
End of 10k pot to control terminal #3
Battery plus to key terminal #1
I twist the pot one way and then the other, or I set it to 2K ohms.
Nothing!
Is there something that I am missing? A technique or a subtle hint?
Stu
www.stulieberman.com <http://www.stulieberman.com/> photos of $100
homebuilt elevator, recumbent trike, etc.
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Stu and Jan wrote:
> I assume that the starting time that the resistor passes current
> is less than 10 seconds.
Yes; it certainly should be!
> If you limit the current to ~30 amps at 12 V would a 100 Watt
> resistor sustain the load without destroying itself?
The wattage rating of a resistor tells you how much power it can
dissipate CONTINUOUSLY. The short-term power dissipation rating is much
higher. It is determined by how heavy the resistor is, and how hot the
materials it is made of can stand.
My home-made banding strap resistor weighed perhaps 1 pound. It could
handle 36v at 250a for about 10 seconds. At the end of this time it is
red-hot, and has almost no mechanical strength left. Hit a pothole, and
it is likely to break.
The commercial resistor I replaced it with was a nichrome "spring" on a
ceramic form. It weighed about 5 pounds, and could take that same 36v at
250a for at least 30 seconds. At the end of this time it too is red-hot,
but has not weakened mechanically -- the main danger is that it will
burn the paint or set fire to something around it!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stu and Jan wrote:
> Note: Usually each leg has 1 more battery than the previous.
> In this case it is for 4-12 V. The starting battery can be switched
> every so often with the middle one to balance things out.
>
> Inventor Mark Thomasson: You can substitute diodes for a few relays.
> He opens the main contactor prior to switching to completely eliminate
> arcing at the cheap 70 amp relays $1.20 each.
> He uses this method on his motorcycle.
> ____
> / \
> / \ \
> _____| Motor |____ \__
> | \ / |
> | \____/ Safety |
> | Disconnect |
> | --- Main
> | --- Contactor
> | | | |
> |--||----||||------------|
> | | | | |
> | R5 | 24v |
> | | ---
> | |---------||---| --- R4
> | | |
> | R6 | |
> | | | |
> |--||-----||-------------|
> | | | |
> | R1 | 12v |
> | | ---
> | |---------||---| --- R2
> | | |
> | R3 | |
> | | | |
> |---------||-------------|
> |
> 12v
>
> Switch logic Batteries
> In use
> Speed R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 Volts 12v 12v 24v disconnect
>
> 0 0 x
> 1 x x x 12 x x x
> 2 x x x 24 x x x x
> 3 x x x 36 x x x x
> 4 x x 48 x x x x
>
> Charging x x x 24 x x x
(for some reason, your post was double-spaced. I corrected it above)
This circuit will work, though there are better ones. This one loads the
batteries unequally, so they will discharge unevenly.
I would prefer the traditional series/parallel circuit. It has 9 SPST
contactors instead of the 7 above, but loads all batteries equally so
they all will reach "dead" or "full" at the same time.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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