EV Digest 4320
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Is this possible?
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Seattle Alt/EV Rally & Newby Questions(tm)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Tennant Etek was Motor/Controller combination
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: An AC style "bypass"?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Contactor controller, Was:RE: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: More Plasma Boy Racing News
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Ballsy hybrid
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: An AC style "bypass"?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Motor/controller combination
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Is this possible?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Is this possible?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: probably need new shocks/springs (struts) on the
VoltsRabbit, also drilling polypro
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Tennant Etek was Motor/Controller combination
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Motor Choke Question?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Motor/controller combination
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Tennant Etek
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Is this possible?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) RE: Is this possible?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) RE: Tennant Etek was Motor/Controller combination
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) RE: Tennant Etek was Motor/Controller combination
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) RE: Tennant Etek was Motor/Controller combination
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) RE: Is this possible?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: More Plasma Boy Racing News
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Contactor controller, Was:RE: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
In a conventional auto your alternator is charging as your electrical system
is discharging.
BoyntonStu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Is this possible?
On 28 Apr 2005 at 11:49, Quin Pendragon wrote:
> the 'not possible'
> stuff was about driving a car off the batteries while the batteries
> were being charged, which is obviously not possible since current can
> only flow into *or* out of a battery, not both ways at once.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, this isn't an accurate statement.
Edward Ang's post addresses the matter pretty well if you extend it a
little. Just as you can pour water into a glass at the same time you're
siphoning water out of it, you can indeed charge a battery while you're
drawing current from it. Otherwise, awful things would happen if you opened
your EV's door and the dome light came on while the charger was operating.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Pat Clarke wrote:
> post-Seattle Rally... One odd thing that happened is that my wife
> was talking to one of the Parks people who (I gathered) drove I
> think an NEV (an IT?), and who made several statements to the
> effect that EV's weren't quite ready for prime time, etc.
If he's driving an NEV and comparing that to his gasoline car, no wonder
the EV comes up short!
But when you compare apples to apples, EVs are very much prime time
players. Compare ICE vs. EV golf carts, or fork lifts, and the EV wins
every time. They cost more to purchase, but save money in the long run.
They are cleaner, quieter, more reliable, last longer, and are generally
better in every way.
When people have had a chance to drive well-made on-the-road EVs (like
the recent batch made by GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan
for the California ZEV program), the reaction has been overwhelmingly
positive. All the auto/oil company red herrings about EVs (inadequte
range, too slow, too expensive, not reliable) turned out to be false --
customers loved the vehicles, and would have bought them if allowed!
When people have to compare home-made EVs to factory-built ICEs, of
course the comparison is unfair (apples to oranges). Private individuals
and tiny companies can't hope to compete with the fit and finish of
mass-produced cars by giant corporations. You have to keep this in mind.
> Anyhow, without further ado, here are my (initial) Newby Questions:
>
> A) I read and enjoyed "Convert It" not too long ago, but I was
> wondering how dated the info in it is.
It is dated; but that doesn't really matter. It's a bit like looking at
a 10-year-old book on how to build a house. The basic principles haven't
changed, but the precise materials you'd use and the details on
construction will have changed a bit.
> B) Is there any sort of online EV Conversion calculator available,
> where one can input various parameters in order to explore the
> feasibility of different conversion projects?
Yes; I have a couple of my own. There are also some good online ones,
though I don't have the references; perhaps someone else will supply
them?
> Seriously, we'd prefer to buy a used EV for our first, and build
> one ourselves later as we learn more, but there don't seem to be
> many available that would suit our purposes, which are:
> - Seats 3-4 + dog
> - Fast enough for short highway trips
> - 40ish mile range ideally (may be some wiggle room...)
> - Doesn't feel like an egg beater/teensy car
> - Ability to climb at least some hills...
> - Not exorbitantly expensive
> (we were particularly curious about something along the lines of
> a couple of Blazers we'd come across online)
You can convert anything, including a Blazer. But, it is a heavy and
inefficient vehicle; this makes it cost more and hurts performance.
But if spending a couple thousand dollars more isn't a problem, it will
work.
> We saw a very reasonably priced li'l e-pickup at the rally, but
> sadly it only seated 2).
If you're buying used, you have to take what you can get. But if that
pickup was an S10, remember that the Blazer is basically the same
vehicle. You could buy the S10 EV, and a Blazer with a dead engine, and
move the EV parts from the S10 to the Blazer to get a 4-door EV.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark, according to the listing on the ThunderStruck web site, these are
rated at 36v. I would also have to put 3 or 4 in series or mount them to
drive at the wheels in order to get enough power to push a Cabriolet. These
are really made for the motor bike/ scooter crowd I think. However, the
ThunderStruck web has several suggestions for motors and controllers.
Thanks. It got me looking in the right place.
Any other suggestions out there?
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Hastings [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I saw them for sale on a website. I know they'll need forced air cooling
which I planned on taking advantage of but other than that are they truely
clones of the Etek even though they nameplate at 36 volts?
I also saw that alot of people overvoltage eteks. Is that safe to do on long
term as long as you keep the motor amps down and the heat down or is it just
for racing?
Thanks,
Mark Hastings
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Given all the differences in motors available and the ever growing field of
controllers available I have a very simple question which I hope gathers
several different answers for consideration....
Within reasonable monetary expenses (less than $5K) what are some good
alternatives for motor/controller combinations that would produce average
"get up and go" as well as good efficiency for distance?
Some specs...
Motor should be in the 8 - 9 inch diameter range but a larger motor with
good specs could be considered.
Batts would be in the 144 to 192 volt range with 40 to 65 ah (probably
Intimidators at 55 ah and 45 lbs.)
Glider would be VW Cabriolet or like size.
Could you include some web links with answers.
Thanks
Jeff "newbie" need-to-get-my-grin-on Wilson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I said before, I can install AC hardware I have access
to *today* to get serious competition to John's setup.
It has more power than 315 MPH record set one and one ABB
is using. Any sponsors?
AS you point out, it is only matter of money. I'm glad
John has sponsorships so he can mofe forwar and we all
can witness his achievements; else he (or anyone in his
shoes) would get stuck for good.
Face reality: record speeds and associated fun does cost
money, especially if you blow things up on the way :-)
The season indeed promises to be interesting!
Rod Hower wrote:
...
I think the best example of this is the E-motion
315MPH salt flats vehicle. Although getting down the
drag strip in a 1/4 mile may require even more sand
(silicon!)
Rod
P.S. Breaking records in EVland will get even more
difficult with AC systems considering John Wayland's
new setup. This will be an interesting EV season!!!!
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan wrote:
>> Basically you'll always end up with a finite number of cruse speeds.
>> For example: Step1-5mph, 2-10mph, 3-20mph, 4-40mph, 5-60mph, 6-80mph.
This would only be true with a PM motor, where voltage strictly controls
rpm. For the same voltage, the car might go 30 mph on level ground, 25
mph uphill, and 35 mph downhill.
With a series motor, voltage only indirectly controls rpm. For the same
voltage, the car might go 30 mph on level ground, 15 mph uphill, and 60
mph downhill. This is actually more like the behavior of the
accellerator pedal in a normal ICE.
Justin Southam wrote:
> Any more than 3 steps (1/4, 1/2, full volts) is ambitious.
> That's a lot of batteries, cable and contactors/diodes.
Well, the batteries are there anyway. But you're right; the amount of
cable and number of contactors/diodes can get overwhelming. It pays to
look at real contactor controllers to learn some of the tricks to
minimizing them.
> I've heard that pedals where position is proportional to vehicle
> speed don't feel intuitive, but I have not experience of this.
You do if you've driven any ICE vehicle. The accellerator pedal position
is *never* proportional to speed. If it were, you wouldn't need a cruise
control -- if you didn't change the pedal position, the car would stay
at constant speed, uphill or down.
Instead, the accellerator pedal in an ICE is more like a "horsepower"
control. It is also decidedly nonlinear; like 1 HP when fully released
(idle), 10 HP at 1/4 throttle, 20 HP at 1/2 throttle, 50 HP at 3/4
throttle, and 100 HP at full throttle.
Part of the reason EVs feel different is that they don't copy this ICE
accellerator pedal behaviour all that well. The Curtis controller and
potbox makes the pedal position control motor torque when in current
limit, and rpm when not in current limit. This is acceptable, but feels
odd at first.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reverend Gadget wrote:
> ... I had the regional marketing man here yesterday talking
> about the future of my new show and Exide's support...
Dear Rev. Gadget,
Shows like yours, and the "show car quality" EVs that people like John
Wayland produce go a long way towards showing people that EV can be a
real alternative, and that people really *can* do things for themselves.
As Mike Brown says, "Why wait for Detroit?" :-)
I've written you before about what I'm doing to promote EVs; I started a
group called BEST (Bridging Engineering Science and Teaching -- see
www.bestoutreach.org). Over the past 9 years we have taught over 1000
4th-6th grade students how to build go-kart-size electric vehicles.
The kids actually invent, design, build, and race these vehicles by
themselves. The adults are not allowed to help; we show them how to use
tools safely, and about problem-solving techniques; but otherwise they
are on their own! They start from scratch; we give them no plans, no
money, no kits. They begin with essentially zero skill using any tools.
They have to scrounge their own parts, and raise whatever money they
need themselves.
I find it truly astounding to see the vehicles they invent. They look
like something from Rube Goldberg or the Little Rascals or Junkyard
Wars. They'll use improbable materials, slapdash construction
techniquies, and ideas that the adults don't think will work. Yet 9 out
10 of our teams manage to build working vehicles.
Our goals are to teach kids to use tools, and actually BUILD something
real. To teach them to THINK; to solve hard problems where you can't
look up the answer in a book or ask an adult. And the meaning of
TEAMWORK, to do a job that's too big to do alone when there is no
"coach" or authority figure to force you to do things his way.
The kids, their parents and teachers are very excited about the BEST
program. But, we never get any publicity. The school administations
ignore us, because it doesn't fit in with "no child left behind" testing
and other traditional schooling. The media ignores us and never comes to
our events (no blood or politics or celebrities).
But, I got to thinking... There are shows like yours, and Junkyard Wars,
and similar "reality TV" types of programs. What would it take to get
someone interested in what we are doing? A kid's version of Junkyard
Wars? A kid's Demolition Derby?
You have experience in dealing with the media. How did you interest them
enough to give you a program? Who should we contact, or what should we
say or do to get their interest?
Sorry for the long email. I'd be delighted for whatever time you can
spare to answer.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope I don't think that was me.
Rich
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: Ballsy hybrid
> Dave Cover wrote:
>
> > I was on my way home from work today and I ended up
> > behind a little gold car at a light...
>
> At that point I thought the story was going to be about a '78 Ford
Fiesta.. ;)
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/599.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guys.....
Just what are you planning on doing??
It's easy to make Ac from DC, takes a couple of transistors... and some
switching logic. A 555 and some descretes is all you need.
Now making a dozzen Kw of 120 Deg three phase, that takes a little more
hardware.
Starting with %100 slip... that's done every time you start a AC motor with
a motor starter contactor. So... you really don't need variable speed.
But what you are talking about is a back yard Kludge that only the smaller
folks would be interested in. If you actually wanted to drive one in traffic
and not Kill of be killed, Then you need some pretty good
torque and speed control.
You folks in this AC style Bypass thread need to do your basic AC drive
train and control home work, before you get hurt.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: An AC style "bypass"?
> So to build an inverter, do you chop it then phase it? Or phase it,
> then chop it?
>
> Translation:
>
> Make it 3 phase, then 60hz? Or 60hz, then send it out in 3 phases?
> (is 50hz better or some other number?)
>
> I'm just looking on the floor by my feet at all these little sealed(no
> air vents?), solid state, plastic box, AC/DC converters..
>
> Apparently, it is relatively simple to convert AC into DC.. But a
> real chore to make AC out of DC?
>
> Or maybe it's "easy" to get low amperage AC from DC? But our problem
> is two fold and compounded(is that redundant?) by needing high
> amperage AND three phase?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jeff.wilson wrote:
> Given all the differences in motors available and the ever growing field of
> controllers available
Pretty much just 2 motors and 2 controllers... Advanced DC and
Netgain, and the Zilla and Curtis..
> alternatives for motor/controller combinations that would produce average
> "get up and go" as well as good efficiency for distance?
An AC setup? ;)
> Motor should be in the 8 - 9 inch diameter range
Pick one out:
http://matchesmotors.com/_wsn/page2.html
> Batts would be in the 144 to 192 volt range with 40 to 65 ah (probably
> Intimidators at 55 ah and 45 lbs.)
Put as many in the car as you can fit. More batteries = more range.
Good luck.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's very poossible and done all the time.
Sheer did it years a go with a Honda Generator and 2 PFC20 Betas.
Wayland and I did it with his gen cart and my gen cart with the Red beastie.
You don't NEED a PFC charger, but it sure helps. You basicly forget about
the battery voltage control since the PFCs do thier thing. Keeping the Honda
fueled and running is the hardest part.
In the old days you have a Sears generator bolted into the place of a the
ICE engine on top of the Prestolite DC contactor controlled motor, and the
output of the Gen was Badboy rectified into the pack and motor. This worked,
was noisey, and stunk and was very wastefull of the gas and the generated
power. Read NO power factor correction.
But yea it's a no brainer.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 8:05 PM
Subject: Is this possible?
> Battery pack, controller, DC motor.
>
> Driving down the street. While at the same time, the PFC is plugged
> into a generator and charging the pack.
>
> I clearly remember reading on this list a couple months ago it being
> said that was not possible. Something to do with the way the
> batteries work..
>
> Now I am confused. Possible or not?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
Sheer Pullen did this from Seattle to Woodburn (and back) a few years ago
with Evercells and an AC motor.
I was a part of this caravan on the return leg, Sheer actually ran 2 PFC-20s
off the generator while going down the road with the chargers sitting in the
rear seat and while monitoring the Siemens system with a laptop on the
passenger seat.
Even with both chargers running, he was still not quite making up for the
power he was using at highway speeds. We stopped a couple of times and let
the generator run for a while along the way.
IMHO, it was the bad aero on the genset trailer that was really hurting us
on energy usage at interstate speeds.
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:07 PM 4/27/05 -0400, you wrote:
The srsvw springs aren't for lowering, as I noted- they are for stock ride
heights. As for stiffening: increasing the spring rate is the point, as
the load is greatly increased.
I'm not sure the effect would be the same. The people these springs were
intended for are tweaking handling, not adding weight. If anything, they
are probably lightening their cars.
I suppose if he wants, he can get the same springs as before, but it
appears they sagged?
We've been issuing these same springs on Voltsrabbits since 1991, this is
the first report of "sagging" we have had - and we had these on our own
Voltsrabbit, the prototype, which was driven in the mountains all that time.
Chuck, if you have the ability to have the car down for a short time, we
could arrange to have your springs tested, to see whether they HAVE
sagged. If not, no point replacing them.
Quite a bit of engineering went into getting these springs wound to carry
the load and maintain stock ride height. The first run of springs was
three sets. When we made the next run, and sent out one set to a customer,
he complained that the car sat too high. After discussing this with the
springmaker, we found out that he had made the first three sets out of
material he had on hand, and the following sets were from new material of a
different alloy. I think this illustrates some of the problems that a
small difference can make.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>These are really made for the motor bike/ scooter crowd I think.
Clearly another land-lubber speaking...
ETEK motors are widely being exploited in electric boat conversions, both
inboard and outboard, sail and power, for up to 40ft and many-tons
propulsion.
-Myles Twete, moderator, Electric Boats Yahoo group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
> Hi Lee, I thought an additional choke was for start-up, to make it
> smoother with those high current pulses initially and to keep the
> controller out of current limit on start-up.
Sort of true; it provides enough inductance so the controller's current
limit works reliably. The usual way that people notice is that they get
a "lurch" when starting from a dead stop.
But the extra inductance always helps, even during normal driving.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
Thanks for the input. I think I'm going to stay out of the AC field right
now on this one because of cost and high voltage requirements, but I do
really appreciate the input.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motor/controller combination
jeff.wilson wrote:
> Given all the differences in motors available and the ever growing field
of
> controllers available
Pretty much just 2 motors and 2 controllers... Advanced DC and
Netgain, and the Zilla and Curtis..
> alternatives for motor/controller combinations that would produce average
> "get up and go" as well as good efficiency for distance?
An AC setup? ;)
> Motor should be in the 8 - 9 inch diameter range
Pick one out:
http://matchesmotors.com/_wsn/page2.html
> Batts would be in the 144 to 192 volt range with 40 to 65 ah (probably
> Intimidators at 55 ah and 45 lbs.)
Put as many in the car as you can fit. More batteries = more range.
Good luck.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh well I was on the fence about jumping to PM and the eteks. Regen,
contactorless reverse, smaller width and wieght were very attractive. However
because of monetary limits I'll probably go with a pair of small advanced
instead of say 4 eteks even though they may be heavier in my microcar.
pekka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mark Hastings wrote:
> I saw them for sale on a website. I know they'll need forced air cooling
> which I planned on taking advantage of but other than that are they truely
> clones of the Etek even though they nameplate at 36 volts?
> I also saw that alot of people overvoltage eteks. Is that safe to do on long
> term as long as you keep the motor amps down and the heat down or is it just
> for racing?
> Thanks,
> Mark Hastings
I suppose you can call them Eteks - the one I bought from EVparts also
says 36V, made in China. It looks similar to the ones offered on eBay a
while ago with integrated adapter for a cooling pipe, no mention of Etek
or B&S anywhere. I think there are manufacturers in China who have just
copied the design and sell them a bit cheaper than the "original"...
As for overvolting, if the motor is well balanced it can be revved
higher than nominal rpm. But with these low priced motors, there is
naturally no guarantee that they last if taken much higher than what the
manufacturer suggests.
Another thing is that the supposedly well built PermMotor PM 132 that I
have is not too well balanced and it vibrates with 24 V. It is nominal
72V, i.e. 3240 rpm... well. At least it is not as loud as the a.m
Etek-version.
Pekka
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roy, do you remember what the resulting mileage was from that set up?
Jeff
Joe Smalley wrote:
>Sheer Pullen did this from Seattle to Woodburn (and back) a few years ago
>with Evercells and an AC motor.
Roy LeMeur wrote:
>I was a part of this caravan on the return leg, Sheer actually ran 2
PFC-20s
>off the generator while going down the road with the chargers sitting in
the
>rear seat and while monitoring the Siemens system with a laptop on the
>passenger seat.
>Even with both chargers running, he was still not quite making up for the
>power he was using at highway speeds. We stopped a couple of times and let
>the generator run for a while along the way.
>IMHO, it was the bad aero on the genset trailer that was really hurting us
>on energy usage at interstate speeds.
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< In a conventional auto your alternator is charging as your electrical system
is discharging.
BoyntonStu >>
If the alternator is functioning correctly, it puts out higher voltage than a
resting, charged 12v battery, so the battery in a modern car only puts *out*
power with the high current output needing in starting the ICE, then sits back
and gets charged (no electrons going "out") - you *can* have the battery
feeding the ignition process and everything else, but this only happens when
the alternator or voltage regulation equipment fails, and then you get less
"range" from your SLI battery than most EVs get from their pack!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry Myles. I wasn't thinking out of the box. I grew up on-the-water so
to speak, in MN, sailing and skiing. I never gave motorized sailing a
thought. Nor did I ever think a ski boat would have enough power to pull me
with an electric motor. I also have an aversion to large amounts of water
and high voltage.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Myles Twete [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>These are really made for the motor bike/ scooter crowd I think.
Clearly another land-lubber speaking...
ETEK motors are widely being exploited in electric boat conversions, both
inboard and outboard, sail and power, for up to 40ft and many-tons
propulsion.
-Myles Twete, moderator, Electric Boats Yahoo group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/
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--- Begin Message ---
<<< Mark, according to the listing on the ThunderStruck web site, these are
rated at 36v. I would also have to put 3 or 4 in series or mount them to
drive at the wheels in order to get enough power to push a Cabriolet. These
are really made for the motor bike/ scooter crowd I think. However, the
ThunderStruck web has several suggestions for motors and controllers. >>>
Actually, the Tennant motors were "made" for floor scrubbers - Tennant doesn't
have anything to do with electric scooters or bikes, and these motors are
surplus stock.
We discussed this motor before:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/37284
in reference to an eBay auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=66958&item=7506104408
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Can these little motors actually be used in an EV? They don't seem to have
the specs that all the Advanced DC motors and others like these. If they
would work, why isn't anyone using them? They are so much lighter and
smaller than the standard 8 or 9 inch motors.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<< Mark, according to the listing on the ThunderStruck web site, these are
rated at 36v. I would also have to put 3 or 4 in series or mount them to
drive at the wheels in order to get enough power to push a Cabriolet. These
are really made for the motor bike/ scooter crowd I think. However, the
ThunderStruck web has several suggestions for motors and controllers. >>>
Actually, the Tennant motors were "made" for floor scrubbers - Tennant
doesn't
have anything to do with electric scooters or bikes, and these motors are
surplus stock.
We discussed this motor before:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/37284
in reference to an eBay auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=66958&item=7506104408
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--- Begin Message ---
Roy, do you remember what the resulting mileage was from that set up?
Jeff
That I do not recall. Perhaps Sheer will chime in here sooner or later :^D
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
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I would love to incorporate what you are doing
into one of our episodes. we are hoping to start
shooting in the fall. I will also ask around and try
to think of some people who you should talk to.
It's always good to start with local media. Like
the local paper or tv station. Find a sympathetic
reporter, one who either likes ev's or kids and keep
them abreast of what you are doing. that is the first
step to getting broader attention. I would really
like to see something like this out here. The problem
with my area is that the schools are so huge and they
have so shops or insurance. But perhaps the program
would be good for private or parochial schools. I do
have some ins with some "youth at risk groups".
Perhaps this might be a good program for one of them.
let's talk more.
Gadget
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Reverend Gadget wrote:
> > ... I had the regional marketing man here
> yesterday talking
> > about the future of my new show and Exide's
> support...
>
> Dear Rev. Gadget,
>
> Shows like yours, and the "show car quality" EVs
> that people like John
> Wayland produce go a long way towards showing people
> that EV can be a
> real alternative, and that people really *can* do
> things for themselves.
> As Mike Brown says, "Why wait for Detroit?" :-)
>
> I've written you before about what I'm doing to
> promote EVs; I started a
> group called BEST (Bridging Engineering Science and
> Teaching -- see
> www.bestoutreach.org). Over the past 9 years we have
> taught over 1000
> 4th-6th grade students how to build go-kart-size
> electric vehicles.
>
> The kids actually invent, design, build, and race
> these vehicles by
> themselves. The adults are not allowed to help; we
> show them how to use
> tools safely, and about problem-solving techniques;
> but otherwise they
> are on their own! They start from scratch; we give
> them no plans, no
> money, no kits. They begin with essentially zero
> skill using any tools.
> They have to scrounge their own parts, and raise
> whatever money they
> need themselves.
>
> I find it truly astounding to see the vehicles they
> invent. They look
> like something from Rube Goldberg or the Little
> Rascals or Junkyard
> Wars. They'll use improbable materials, slapdash
> construction
> techniquies, and ideas that the adults don't think
> will work. Yet 9 out
> 10 of our teams manage to build working vehicles.
>
> Our goals are to teach kids to use tools, and
> actually BUILD something
> real. To teach them to THINK; to solve hard problems
> where you can't
> look up the answer in a book or ask an adult. And
> the meaning of
> TEAMWORK, to do a job that's too big to do alone
> when there is no
> "coach" or authority figure to force you to do
> things his way.
>
> The kids, their parents and teachers are very
> excited about the BEST
> program. But, we never get any publicity. The school
> administations
> ignore us, because it doesn't fit in with "no child
> left behind" testing
> and other traditional schooling. The media ignores
> us and never comes to
> our events (no blood or politics or celebrities).
>
> But, I got to thinking... There are shows like
> yours, and Junkyard Wars,
> and similar "reality TV" types of programs. What
> would it take to get
> someone interested in what we are doing? A kid's
> version of Junkyard
> Wars? A kid's Demolition Derby?
>
> You have experience in dealing with the media. How
> did you interest them
> enough to give you a program? Who should we contact,
> or what should we
> say or do to get their interest?
>
> Sorry for the long email. I'd be delighted for
> whatever time you can
> spare to answer.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
> thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
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Justin Southam wrote:
> I recall from PWM controller threads that current limiting is often
> not controlled by software because of risk of glitch or delay.
Correct. It is generally considered a cheap or bad design to depend on
the micro for this, as a simple program bug or noise glitch would
destroy the controller.
> A contactor controller is obviously much less sensitive to over
> current than a PWM controller but I'd rather the current limit
> activates then notifies the PIC. Same with the rev limiter.
Except that in a contactor controller, you can PREDICT whether
increasing the voltage will cause the current to go too high. The micro
has plenty of time to think about it, double-check its results, and THEN
allow the voltage to be stepped up.
For example, you want a 500 amp current limit. You are at the 36v step
and the motor is drawing 300 amps. Doubling the voltage to 72v will also
cause the current to double, to 600 amps. Thus, don't switch! Wait until
the motor speed increases so the current falls to 250 amps. Then you can
safely switch to 72v and the current will double to 500 amps.
Now, this direct relationship between motor voltage and current isn't
exact; any real motor will vary from this slightly. It works best at low
currents; at high currents, the motor current will more than double when
you double the voltage.
Same with rpm. The motor has a precise relationship between voltage,
current, rpm, and torque. If you measure voltage and current, you can
calculate rpm and torque (or get it from a lookup table or graph). So if
you have a current sensor, you don't need an rpm sensor. Or if you sense
rpm, you don't need to sense current.
My point was that you may want to sense both anyway, just for redundancy
and fault analysis. If one sensor malfunctions, you can tell something
went wrong.
> I hadn't considered contact life. 2 thoughts spring to mind. The
> contactors would close under load but the idea is the main contactor
> would be open when these contactors open, I assumed most wear
> (arcing) would occur on opening.
Generally true, especially with inductive loads like a motor.
But, if you always use your main contactor to break the circuit, then
you wear it out especially fast. It's more normal to design a contactor
controller so the load is broken by multiple contactors, both to reduce
the stress on each one, and to equalize their life expectancy.
> Or replace them with SCRs, they would turn off with the main
> contactor.
The SCRs will require heatsinking and control logic. You don't have to
go very far down this path before you are better off just using them to
both make and break power, and so are well on your way toward having a
PWM controller.
> Do you think a 144volt (36/72/144) 3 step system would be practical?
> I think the 72 to 144v step is just too wide.
The steps in a contactor controller are almost always 2:1. As I said,
this causes a roughly 2:1 change in torque. If you're cruising at a
particular speed and double the torque, the rate of accelleration is
very small.
>>> Oil filled main contactor...
>> Why oil-filled?
> I thought this contactor would be repeatedly and often opening
> under load and this would minimise contact damage (arcing).
It can help if it's designed for it. But such contactors are pretty rare
in EVs. They are more likely to be found in huge power plants.
With a reasonable "snubber" network, a "dry" contact will be just fine.
Even without a snubber, it will last a long time!
>> There shouldn't be any diodes in the circuit at full voltage
>> -- just contacts and batteries.
> I drew a circuit with 4 batteries with positives to anodes of
> 4 diodes, cathodes commoned to main contactor. Battery negatives
> to cathodes of 4 diodes, anodes commoned for negative motor
> connection. Contactors from bat1+ to bat 2-, from 2+ to 3-,
> 3+ to 4-. Battery 1 negative and battery 4 positive can be
> connected without diodes but this would upset current sharing.
No; the rectactor is a better circuit. Here it is (view with a fixed
width font like Courier New or Fixedsys):
_________________________________||__________||___
| _|_ __|__+ | || | | || |
| D1 /_\ S4a ___ B1 | S1 | | S2 |
_|_ |____||____| - | | |_ _|
D5 /_\ +__|__ || _|_ |___|/___| \/\/\/ |
| B2 ___ /_\ D2 +|\- | R1 |_
| - |__________| C1 _|_ _| MOTOR
| S3 | S5 ___ _| FIELD
|______||_________| | _|
| || | | |
____|_____ | |____|
_|_ __|__+ _|_ |
D3 /_\ S4b ___ B3 /_\ D6 _|_
|____||____| - | MOTOR / \
+__|__ || _|_ | ARMATURE | |
B4 ___ /_\ D4 | \___/
|__________|___________|________________________________|
B1-B4 are your four 12v batteries. S1 is your main contactor, and has
capacitor C1 across it as a snubber. R1 is your starting resistor, and
S2 is the bypass contactor for it.
S4 is your 12v/24v series/parallel contactor. When open, B3 and B4 are
in parallel via diodes D3 and D4; and B1 and B2 are in parallel via
diodes D1 and D2. When you close S4, it connects B1 and B2 in series,
and B3 and B4 in series.
S3 is your 24v/48v series/parallel contactor. It works with diodes D5
and D6 to select 24v or 48v.
S5 is a field weaking contactor. It wires part of the starting resistor
across the field to get a speed halfway between two voltage steps.
Notice that at full voltage (48v), there are no diodes in the power
path. At 24v, there is only one diode in the power path (D5 and D6 are
effectively in parallel, each carrying 1/2 the motor current). At 12v,
there is two diode drops in the power path (D1, D2, D3, and D4 are
effectively in parallel, each carrying 1/4th the motor current).
Also note that no contactor ever needs to switch the full 48v. In an
emergency shutdown, opening all contactors doesn't have more than 12v
across any of them.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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