EV Digest 4329
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Sim Results for 911 Conversion
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Smarts in the US
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: batteries and range
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Green car question on Grist
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: batteries and range
by John Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Smarts in the US
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: batteries and range
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: batteries and range
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: batteries and range
by John Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Smart Contactor controller, CC, 2 motors for Freedom EV
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) battery help needed
by Thomas J webster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: battery help needed
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: batteries and range
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Todd DC/DC converter noise?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: batteries and range
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: BB600 battery pickup - observations
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Todd DC/DC converter noise?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: battery help needed
by Thomas J webster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Contactor controller, Was:RE: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: battery help needed
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: batteries and range
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: battery help needed
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: batteries and range
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) GEM Auto Insurance
by "J Mac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: batteries and range
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---Comments interspersed. --- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What controller and motor are you using? Kostov 11 inch sepex. Still deciding on controller, leaning towards going retro. > What is your simulated coefficient drag, simulated frontal > area, and simulated weight? Transmission efficiency? Tire > size? > > I'd love to compare with simulations of my in-progress > project. :) I estimated 3400 lbs for the sim (about 100 lbs more than I think I'll wind up), and same aero drag as a Camaro (turns out the Camaro and 911 have very close hp vs. top speed numbers). My aero will be a bit better with a belly pan. A sanity check is I'll have more power than the gasser motor, which will push the car to 144 mph. I don't work directly with frontal area, Cd, gearing, or tire diameter. Instead I use the power for a speed, and max speed at redline in each gear. If you'd give me these parameters I'd be happy to do a sim run on your car, it'd be fun to see how our sims compare. Next message: The sim math. > I have played with the numbers for varying possibilities, > but with a .32 Cd, 14.9 square foot frontal area, WarP 9'', > Zilla 1k, Nokian NRT2 tires size 185/70R14 with .0085 > coefficient rolling resistance, 25 Optima D750 yellowtops, > 7.5 mph outside wind speed, 2,700 pound curb weight, 83% > transmission/drive axel combined efficiency, 192 max motor > volts, 1000 max motor amps, and optimum shift points > selected with a .3 second duration of shift assuming I start > in 2nd gear I get the following results: > > 0-60: 5.9 seconds > 1/4 mile: 14.8 seconds @ 92 mph > Top Speed: 131 mph (limited before max RPM is reached in 4th > gear) > Range @ 60 mph in 2nd gear to 100% DoD: 87 miles > > .32 is apparantly what this car's coefficient of drag is > stock. But I intend to place on it a LeMans style bonnet, > cover the top third of rear wheel wells, install a full > underbelly, cover the grille from the inside, remove chrome > stips and cover the resulting gaps with bondo, change > driver's side mirror to something more aero(no passenger > side mirror), remove the exterior vents, shave down the rain > gutters, cover all seams, shave down the door handles, shave > down the handle of the rear hatch, remove chrome strips from > rear hatch, remove chrome pieces from rear of the car, > change the front bumper and rear bumperettes to something > smaller and smoother, smooth LeMans style wheels, and lower > the car an inch closer to the ground. > > Cd may end up getting cut down to .25 or so, and frontal > area would lose about .2 square feet. > > Also, is to install the fiberglass LeMans bonnet as > mentioned, fiberglass door skins, fiberglass rockers, > fiberglass hatch, lexan windows and hatch window, a lighter > weight windshild that can still meet street legal > requirements, the smaller bumpers as mentioned, all of > which should shave off about 250 pounds, bringing the weight > to a scant 2,450 pounds, and having almost half its weight > in batteries. Add Redline MTL to tranny and assume > efficiency jumps to 85%. > > Under those new parameters: > > 0-60: 5.5 seconds > 1/4 mile: 14.6 seconds @ 97 mph > Top Speed: 140 mph (still limited before max RPM is reached > in 4th gear) > Range @ 60 mph in 2nd gear to 100% DoD: 117 miles > > > > I could compare with your parameters and figures to see if > anything is wrong with my numbers. They seem very > optimistic. My engine weight is 402 pounds, I can save 40 > pounds by changing to Miata seats, 15 pounds of carpets to > be removed, 25 pounds of sound deadener, 35 pound spare > tire, 20 pound gas tank, 70 pounds of exhaust and other ICE > related components. Base dry weight is 1,793 pounds. This > means a glider weight of about 1,170-1,180 pounds. *Very* > light for a glider. > > 1,125 pound battery pack, 160 pound motor, 16 pound > controller, 16 pound charger, 100 pounds of miscallaneous > parts, and I weigh about 130. The LeMans bonnet will cut > about 40 pounds and lighter bumpers will cut about 30 > pounds. > > Thus without additional fiberglass components, including my > weight, car will come in at about 2,650 pounds. > > Add the rest of the fiberglass components, and weight can go > down to 2,450. > > A Li Ion upgrade to replacing the Optimas with 450 pounds of > Lithium Ions after this stage and adding a Zilla 2k would > bring the weight to what the car was when it was stock, and > 0-60 would drop to the mid 4s and 1/4 mile into the upper > 13s, while going 200 miles per charge at highway speeds. > Replace the 9'' with twin 8''s, and weight increases about > 90 pounds from stock and 1/4 mile drops to the 12s, and top > speed rockets well over 160, 1/4 mile time under the > assumption that the car will be able to launch at a max of > 7 Gs with those tires and get the needed traction. This > thing would be a beast, under either this scenario or the > more tame ones above. > > > > I'm interested in your simulation. I'm probably not going to > be attempting any land speed runs with my car in the near > future, nor do I honestly expect to go more than 130 mph, > nor have a range more than 40 miles under the 2,650 pound > setup with 300V single string of Optima YTs, so maybe I have > some things wrong in this simulation. > > The figures I'm using for simulation come from both the > Mayfield page section on automotive technical analysis, and > from Bob Brandt's book. > > http://www.teknett.com/pwp/drmayf/hpvsspd.htm > > > > Whatever the case may be, when I get my EV on the road, I'm > definately going to play with it and see how fast and how > far it will go... > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---*If* this is true and indeed happening, we expect a great donors:
http://www.zapworld.com/about/news/news_smartRegulatoryApproval.asp
-- Victor '91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > How does the Exide Orbital 34s compare to the Optima D31 for range? The Exide Orbital D34 compares to the Optima D34, as both as 40-ish pound AGMs. The Optima D31 is a larger, 60lb battery. The Optima D34 and Orbital D34 are both rated 55Ah (C/20), while the D31 is rated 75Ah (C/20). In the real world, the Optima D34 delivers about 40Ah (C/1), so the D31 should deliver about 50% more, or near 60Ah, based on its roughly 50% greater weight. Before you commit to this battery, try to get 'testimonials' from EVers who've used the D31 to confirm that it will meet your range requirements. Better still, invest in a sample and test it (or have it tested). Seth Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Personally, if you want to go 30 miles I think you need more capacity > than a 156V string of D31s. They will work fine for a while, but > without headroom as soon as you lose any range, then the car > cannot do its primary task. So I would say you need more capacity as > a buffer. I agree with Seth. At 30 miles, the D31s probably can't cut it; at 25 miles it looks like they would just make it at 80% DOD. As Seth notes, if you *need* 80% of rated capacity to make your trip, then the useful life of your pack is shorter since you'll have to replace it when your capacity drops to near 80% of new. For decent life with AGMs, DOD should really not exceed 50% on a regular basis. If the 25mi trip is not your daily commute, but rather an occasional trip that you want to be able to manage, then the D31s might still be worthy of consideration. If you need to go 25mi between charges on a daily basis then you probably want more battery capacity so that you aren't replacing your pack every year. If you stick with the 156V max DCP1200, you may well have no choice but to go with a pack of flooded 8Vers. If you want to avoid floodeds, you might be better off getting rid of the DCP and picking up a 300V Zilla 1K so that you can get your capacity by using a slightly longer string of AGMs than the 156V DCP allows. Cheers, Roger.
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--- Begin Message --- <x-tad-bigger>A Vroom of One's Own</x-tad-bigger><x-tad-bigger>
</x-tad-bigger><x-tad-bigger>On whether to eco-retrofit an old car</x-tad-bigger><x-tad-bigger>
</x-tad-bigger><x-tad-smaller>By Umbra Fisk</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>28 Apr 2005</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>
</x-tad-smaller>
<<inline: Q.gif>>
My husband is an environmentalist. He wants one of the new alternative-fuel cars, but I have a dream to surprise him for his birthday with a 1970 muscle car (a Malibu or something like that) from his youth, which I would retrofit with a biodiesel or natural-gas engine. My questions are:
1. Should I put in a biodiesel engine or a natural-gas engine?
2. Who can do this for me in California (preferably the Bay Area)?
3. How much should I expect to pay to have this done?
Lucy
Belvedere, Calif.
Full response at:
http://grist.org/advice/ask/2005/04/28/umbra-retrofit/index.html
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--- Begin Message ---Thanks every one.
I need to commute about 25 miles with this EV. I like the Raptor and I got it for a good price. Plus its air cooled not water cooled.
I like the Optimas but the reality is I probably should go for 20 8 volts to get 160. I know the Raptor is rated for 156, do you think 160 is going to matter?
John
On May 2, 2005, at 12:12 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How does the Exide Orbital 34s compare to the Optima D31 for range?
The Exide Orbital D34 compares to the Optima D34, as both as 40-ish
pound AGMs. The Optima D31 is a larger, 60lb battery. The Optima D34
and Orbital D34 are both rated 55Ah (C/20), while the D31 is rated 75Ah
(C/20). In the real world, the Optima D34 delivers about 40Ah (C/1), so
the D31 should deliver about 50% more, or near 60Ah, based on its
roughly 50% greater weight. Before you commit to this battery, try to
get 'testimonials' from EVers who've used the D31 to confirm that it
will meet your range requirements. Better still, invest in a sample and
test it (or have it tested).
Seth Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Personally, if you want to go 30 miles I think you need more capacity than a 156V string of D31s. They will work fine for a while, but without headroom as soon as you lose any range, then the car cannot do its primary task. So I would say you need more capacity as a buffer.
I agree with Seth. At 30 miles, the D31s probably can't cut it; at 25 miles it looks like they would just make it at 80% DOD. As Seth notes, if you *need* 80% of rated capacity to make your trip, then the useful life of your pack is shorter since you'll have to replace it when your capacity drops to near 80% of new. For decent life with AGMs, DOD should really not exceed 50% on a regular basis.
If the 25mi trip is not your daily commute, but rather an occasional trip that you want to be able to manage, then the D31s might still be worthy of consideration. If you need to go 25mi between charges on a daily basis then you probably want more battery capacity so that you aren't replacing your pack every year.
If you stick with the 156V max DCP1200, you may well have no choice but to go with a pack of flooded 8Vers. If you want to avoid floodeds, you might be better off getting rid of the DCP and picking up a 300V Zilla 1K so that you can get your capacity by using a slightly longer string of AGMs than the 156V DCP allows.
Cheers,
Roger.
JFM Digital Imaging 415-472-4482 www.jfmdigital.com
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--- Begin Message ---Hi Victor and All, --- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > *If* this is true and indeed happening, we expect a > great donors: > > http://www.zapworld.com/about/news/news_smartRegulatoryApproval.asp You would be right if the Euro exchange rate was better so they don't go for over $25k as an ICE as the price stands now, or Zap wasn't in on it which makes it doubtful from the start!!! Now if the exchange rate changes as the economy both here and even worse in Europe bites the big one this summer and Smart or someone get's it past the Fed's, then if they will sell gliders or finished EV's, then you may be on to something as they were designed to be an EV from the beginning along with as a gas or diesel!!! But that's a lot of if's ;-o HTH's, Jerry Dycus > > -- > Victor > '91 ACRX - something different > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---John Martin wrote:
Thanks every one.
I need to commute about 25 miles with this EV. I like the Raptor and I got it for a good price. Plus its air cooled not water cooled.
I like the Optimas but the reality is I probably should go for 20 8 volts to get 160. I know the Raptor is rated for 156, do you think 160 is going to matter?
IIRC the Raptor has a hard 200V limit, the published 156V is low enough that even when charging the 200V limit will never be met. I've been told the specs can be stretched to 168VDC if you ensure the controller can never be connected to the batteries while charging above 200V. The simple solution is to wire up a negative contactor that is open whenever power is applied to the charger.
Especially with floodeds (which tend to have a lower finish voltage than AGM's) you should be ok at 160V. However, as always, exceeding the manufacturer's published specs is done at your own risk. If you break it you get to keep both halves.
Mark Farver
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--- Begin Message ---John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I need to commute about 25 miles with this EV. I like the > Raptor and I got it for a good price. Plus its air cooled > not water cooled. > > I like the Optimas but the reality is I probably should go > for 20 8 volts to get 160. I know the Raptor is rated for > 156, do you think 160 is going to matter? I think you'd be OK provided you ensure that the controller is *completely* disconnected from the pack while charging. This includes the precharge connection. Even 156V of floodeds seems marginal as the controller uses 200V FETs and you could easily have your pack hit 2.6V/cell at the end of charge which is just over 200V even at 156V nominal. If you run AGMs, the situation is better in the sense that you would probably want to run Rudman regs to clamp the batteries to 14.7V each, which limits the peak charging voltage of a 156V pack to 191V. You might be better off with 20 6V modules for 120V nominal since you have more sizes to choose from in the 6V model, and so could shave about 150 lbs off the pack by going with the smallest 6V GC model (or end up at 132V for the same weight). This also eliminates any concern with over-voltaging the controller during or immediately after charge. How long does your commute take? The shorter the amount of time you are driving for (i.e. the higher the average discharge rate), the more attractive AGMs become. I'm not a big fan of buddy-pairs, but 156V of buddy paired Optima D34s is a bit lighter than the 120V pack of 6Vs and should do your commute at about 60%DOD. Cheers, Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---Roger
Depending on traffic my commute is anywhere from 30 t0 45 minutes each way.
John
On May 2, 2005, at 2:53 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I need to commute about 25 miles with this EV. I like the Raptor and I got it for a good price. Plus its air cooled not water cooled.
I like the Optimas but the reality is I probably should go for 20 8 volts to get 160. I know the Raptor is rated for 156, do you think 160 is going to matter?
I think you'd be OK provided you ensure that the controller is *completely* disconnected from the pack while charging. This includes the precharge connection.
Even 156V of floodeds seems marginal as the controller uses 200V FETs and you could easily have your pack hit 2.6V/cell at the end of charge which is just over 200V even at 156V nominal.
If you run AGMs, the situation is better in the sense that you would probably want to run Rudman regs to clamp the batteries to 14.7V each, which limits the peak charging voltage of a 156V pack to 191V.
You might be better off with 20 6V modules for 120V nominal since you
have more sizes to choose from in the 6V model, and so could shave about
150 lbs off the pack by going with the smallest 6V GC model (or end up
at 132V for the same weight). This also eliminates any concern with
over-voltaging the controller during or immediately after charge.
How long does your commute take? The shorter the amount of time you are
driving for (i.e. the higher the average discharge rate), the more
attractive AGMs become. I'm not a big fan of buddy-pairs, but 156V of
buddy paired Optima D34s is a bit lighter than the 120V pack of 6Vs and
should do your commute at about 60%DOD.
Cheers,
Roger.
JFM Digital Imaging 415-472-4482 www.jfmdigital.com
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--- Begin Message ---Hi Justin and All, --- Justin Southam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Jerry, thanks for all the info. Will save and > study it. > > Saw your comment of using CC for a budget version of > the Freedom EV. Thats > where i'm coming from. For $50-100 extra the simple > CC can be made a little > smarter and driver friendly. Cool, when you get it done, please let us know about it. A smarter version that keeps people from starting off in top speed would be nice! I blew more than 1 contactor doing that!!! Give a nice but rather unexpected burn out though ;-)) As I'm going to use a generator onboard the Freedom EV sometimes, S/P the batts would be hard but 2 ways have been figured out to handle that. On is S/P the motors with resistor, straight voltage then 1/3 field weakening CC so the batt voltage stays 72vdc for the gen or use 2 E-teks as very eff, light gens for 36vdc each so I could S/P the batts or maybe both the batts, motors. As E-teks will put out 130 amps and about 90% eff they will be good as gens at 40vdc each. I was planning a single L91 or 8" motor but the better torque, cooling and cont power of 2 A89's makes that way better whether an E controller or CC. But I won't offer the CC unless someone asks for it which I bet few will though maybe I'll use it on my personal one. Thanks, Jerry Dycus > > Justin > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - > Release Date: 29-04-05 > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---Hi guys, I bought a elec-trak e20 and put new 6 volt batteries from interstate, I hook up the charger put the power disconnect in the down position, the fuel gauge goes over to the red. The charger hums louder and the batteries start to bubble? Is this normal? What should I do? Thanks in addvance, -Tom P.S. I tried to join the elec-trak email list I kept getting a 404 error when I tryed to email or register?
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--- Begin Message ---Thomas J webster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I bought a elec-trak e20 and put new 6 volt batteries from > interstate, I hook up the charger put the power disconnect in > the down position, the fuel gauge goes over to the red. The > charger hums louder and the batteries start to bubble? Is > this normal? What should I do? Thanks in addvance, -Tom Double check to ensure that the batteries are wired correctly (-ve of one bat to +ve of the next), and that you are measuring the expected 36V at the charger connections with the charger off. It is not too difficult to get a battery connected backwards, which would result in a voltage of just 24V at the charger (30V-6V=24V), which your fuel guage will interpret as a dead pack. The charger will be putting out full current into this pack trying to bring it up to about 45V (2.5V/cell), and probably boiling the reversed battery if not all of them. Cheers, Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---Hi,
John Martin wrote:I probably should go for 20 8 volts to get 160. I know the Raptor is rated for 156, do you think 160 is going to matter?
What you describe above is exactly how I had my Cherokee for a year and a half. I used to have a 156-volt Raptor 600 controller with twenty 8-volt batteries (Trojan T-875s), for a nominal pack voltage of 160-volts.
I have a reed switch behind the "gas filler door" where my charger's plug is located. Whenever my Jeep is charging, that door is opened, and the reed switch triggers a relay which _cuts-off_ power to both main contactors _and_ to the controller's ignition switch input wire(s). Thus, there was no way the controller could ever/can ever see pack voltage when charging. Note that I now use a 156-volt Zilla 1K controller, and have had no problems with using either controller on my 160-volt pack.
-- -Nick http://Go.DriveEV.com/ 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV ---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---Hi,
Joe Smalley wrote:At very light loads the control chip skips cycles. This produces an audible hiss. All of mine make that noise at light loads.
Thanks for the reassurance.
I've had it hooked up to my pack for about 4 hours now, and although it has been cycling through an array of rather annoying hissing/ buzzing/ squealing noises whenever the load on is very small on it's output, it is pumping out the current solidly, and seems to be working fine.
Here's another question: My pack finish charges at ~195 volts. I wonder how safe it is to run this DC/DC up to these kinds of voltages? Anyone know what the input caps and such are rated at? Hopefully it can handle it, as plugging/unplugging this thing is annoying, even more so than my DCP unit was (large sparks).
I sure wish that these DC/DC converters would have precharge circuits built in them...
Thanks, -- -Nick http://Go.DriveEV.com/ 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV ---------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Depending on traffic my commute is anywhere from 30 t0 45 > minutes each way. Hmmm... assuming 7000Wh from a 156V pack in 30-45min means an average discharge rate of 60-90A. This is certainly well within the capabilities of a flooded pack, but the real discharge profile is probably short bursts of 3-5x this (180-450A) separated by intervals of near 0A (unless yours is a fairly clear highway commute). I think the rule of thumb mentioned on the list in the past is that if you are discharging the batteries in less than 1hr, then AGMs may offer better performance than flooded lead-acid. Certainly, at the 30min discharge duration you seem to be well into AGM territory. Cheers, Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---I charged a cell at work today, 10A for 5.5 hours. The battery did not get hot or even warm. I used my calipers to measure the cell width. It starts out at 1.4" and expanded to 1.75" maximum. It was 1.65" when I was done (waiting 2 hours for this measurement). Peak voltage after 55Amp*hrs was 1.55V. OC voltage after 2 hours was 1.36V. I'll do a load test to measure capacity in the near future. It appears that a method to contain the cell is in order. If the cell was constrained it would remain at approximately 1.4" and the electrolyte would reach the max fill line. Without restriction the electrolyte convered the top of the plate material. More info later. Rod
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--- Begin Message ---
On May 1, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Nick Viera wrote:
I'm curious to know if it is normal for the Todd DC/DC converters to make a (pretty noticeable) buzzing/hissing type sound while in operation? The noise I'm hearing is loudest when the DC/DC is barely loaded, and almost non-existent when the DC/DC is heavily loaded (i.e. the intensity of the sound is inversely proportional to the electrical load on the DC/DC's outputs).
Yes, though its generally only noticeable if you mount the Todd inside the vehicle. They have a little scree or buzz sound that does seem to decrease as the load increases.
Paul "neon" G.
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--- Begin Message ---Thanks Rodger!! Yup, I reversed a batt. Woo Hoo!!! Newbie with a grin!!! This e-20 is my first ev!! After I corrected the pack wirering I was crusing up my driveway (750ft) Now this leads me to my next problem. I shut off the power disconect and I plug in the charger it hums and no boiling batteries. I was told this is a "smart" charger and it will automaticly shut off when the pack is full. I figure it wouldn't hurt to charge the pack. The perevious owner didn't have a problem with it, but he wasn't to "ev savy" I need to get a volt meter and learn what this charger is doing. -Tom On Mon, 2 May 2005 17:14:40 -0700 "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thomas J webster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I bought a elec-trak e20 and put new 6 volt batteries from > > interstate, I hook up the charger put the power disconnect in > > the down position, the fuel gauge goes over to the red. The > > charger hums louder and the batteries start to bubble? Is > > this normal? What should I do? Thanks in addvance, -Tom > > Double check to ensure that the batteries are wired correctly (-ve of > one bat to +ve of the next), and that you are measuring the expected 36V > at the charger connections with the charger off. > > It is not too difficult to get a battery connected backwards, which > would result in a voltage of just 24V at the charger (30V-6V=24V), which > your fuel guage will interpret as a dead pack. The charger will be > putting out full current into this pack trying to bring it up to about > 45V (2.5V/cell), and probably boiling the reversed battery if not all of > them. > > Cheers, > > Roger. > >
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--- Begin Message ---Justin Southam wrote: > The current and rpm monitors can be used to prompt the driver the > change down when rpm gets low and current rises hopefully avoiding > having to drop another voltage step to limit current. Actually a > feature like this could be useful on other controllers to help > unfamiliar drivers come to grips with the subtleties of EV driving. I like the idea of adding enough automation to a contactor controller so the driver can't fry something. Basically, this means limiting the time and/or temperature that the starting resistor resistor can be used, and limiting the voltage so the motor doesn't draw excessive current. > Thanks for the rectactor circuit. Much better than mine. Do S4a > and b need to be ganged? No, they don't need to be. But by ganging them (two contacts on a single contactor), battery currents are the same in all voltage configurations. Also, you have two contactors in series breaking at the same time; this halves the voltage rating that each contact needs to withstand. One advantage of contactor controllers is that they can be arranged so you can switch high voltages safely with low-voltage contacts. The example I showed has S1, S2, S3, and both S4 contacts *all* in series in your highest voltage step. In an emergency, you drop them all! It will stop (or slow to a crawl) even if one or two contacts weld. > The diodes should prevent any excitement. Yes. They eliminate the hazards of having a stuck parallel contact when you switch to series! > It appears by alternating them with S3 enabled you could have a 3/4 > step and maintain approximate battery SOC balance. Yes; you could switch just S4a or S4b to get a 36v step. But it's not as useful as you might think. -- Ring the bells that you can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack in everything That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem" -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Thomas J webster wrote:I bought a elec-trak e20 and put new 6 volt batteries from> interstate,[...]
Congrats on the find! I have the GE battery wiring instructions here: http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/ElecTrak/battery_installation.html which might help you make sure they are wired up right.
P.S. I tried to join the elec-trak email list I kept getting a> 404 error when I tryed to email or register?
Make sure you are using the form at https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak and not the Yahoo group which isn't any use.
-- Jim Coate 1970's Elec-Trak's 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel http://www.eeevee.com
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--- Begin Message --- Yeah, but isn't that 30 to 45 minutes /each way/? Unless he's got charging at the midpoint (like I don't, </bitter whining>) that brings the total discharge time to 1 to 1.5 hours. The batteries get a rest-and-refresh between legs, but it still sounds like the group wisdom points to floodies.
Jude
Roger Stockton wrote:
John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Depending on traffic my commute is anywhere from 30 t0 45 minutes each way.
I think the rule of thumb mentioned on the list in the past is that if
you are discharging the batteries in less than 1hr, then AGMs may offer
better performance than flooded lead-acid. Certainly, at the 30min
discharge duration you seem to be well into AGM territory.
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--- Begin Message ---Are you using the stock charger that is built into the tractor?
If so, the main disconnect needs to be on in order to charge, and it is not super smart; the user needs to set the timer to a duration roughly appropriate for the age and use of the batteries. At the *end* of the charging cycle, shortly before the timer shuts off, is when you should see the bubbling occur.
Thomas J webster wrote:this leads me to my next problem. I shut off the power disconect and I plug in the charger it hums and no boiling batteries. I was told this is a "smart" charger and it will automaticly shut off when the pack is full.
-- Jim Coate 1970's Elec-Trak's 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel http://www.eeevee.com
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--- Begin Message ---I suspect those numbers are warm and new batteries.
Once he hits a few hundred cycles, or lets say 150 days of commuting, then he may be out of range. Which menas he then needs a new pack so he can hit his minimum range. So adding more now is a VERY good thing.
And for a 60 lb battery, I would think closer to 35Ah reliably than 40Ah. But that's opinion.
Seth
On May 2, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How does the Exide Orbital 34s compare to the Optima D31 for range?
The Exide Orbital D34 compares to the Optima D34, as both as 40-ish
pound AGMs. The Optima D31 is a larger, 60lb battery. The Optima D34
and Orbital D34 are both rated 55Ah (C/20), while the D31 is rated 75Ah
(C/20). In the real world, the Optima D34 delivers about 40Ah (C/1), so
the D31 should deliver about 50% more, or near 60Ah, based on its
roughly 50% greater weight. Before you commit to this battery, try to
get 'testimonials' from EVers who've used the D31 to confirm that it
will meet your range requirements. Better still, invest in a sample and
test it (or have it tested).
Seth Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Personally, if you want to go 30 miles I think you need more capacity than a 156V string of D31s. They will work fine for a while, but without headroom as soon as you lose any range, then the car cannot do its primary task. So I would say you need more capacity as a buffer.
I agree with Seth. At 30 miles, the D31s probably can't cut it; at 25 miles it looks like they would just make it at 80% DOD. As Seth notes, if you *need* 80% of rated capacity to make your trip, then the useful life of your pack is shorter since you'll have to replace it when your capacity drops to near 80% of new. For decent life with AGMs, DOD should really not exceed 50% on a regular basis.
If the 25mi trip is not your daily commute, but rather an occasional trip that you want to be able to manage, then the D31s might still be worthy of consideration. If you need to go 25mi between charges on a daily basis then you probably want more battery capacity so that you aren't replacing your pack every year.
If you stick with the 156V max DCP1200, you may well have no choice but to go with a pack of flooded 8Vers. If you want to avoid floodeds, you might be better off getting rid of the DCP and picking up a 300V Zilla 1K so that you can get your capacity by using a slightly longer string of AGMs than the 156V DCP allows.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message --- Hi -- in the Bay Area & needing personal and commercial auto insurance for GEMs.
Any recommendations?
Thanks.
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--- Begin Message ---If every trip uses 80% of your batteries capacity, then you will need to replace the batteries in less than a year. If you can live with that, go for it. Buying new D31s every year sounds kind of expensive to me. > Thanks Lawrence > > I'm hoping that with less weight, wheel alignment and low rolling > resistance tires, I can make it. > > John > > > On Apr 30, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote: > >> That at 59 pounds per battery is 767 pounds of batteries. I checked >> Mapquest and it shows around 23 miles. Even a little shorter distance >> by 8%. With low rolling resistance tires it just might do it. >> LR.......... >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 8:08 PM >> Subject: Re: batteries and range >> >> >>> Thanks Roger >>> >>> I'm going to go for the Optima D31s at 156 volts. >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> On Apr 29, 2005, at 1:06 PM, Roger Stockton wrote: >>> >>>> John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>>> >>>>> The range is more like 25 miles. I mentioned 30 miles so as not to >>>>> go >>>>> below 80%. If I can safely get 25 miles that would be perfect. >>>> >>>> OK, 25mi @ 280Wh/mi is 7000Wh, so a single 156V string of Optima D31s >>>> looks like it might just barely do. Someone who has actually run a >>>> set >>>> would have to confirm what their real-world capacity is though. It >>>> looks like if they can deliver at least 56Ah you'll get 25mi at >>>> 80%DOD. >>>> >>>> Another option is LiIon. I hadn't mentioned it because the up-front >>>> cost is prohibitive for most of us. The ThunderSky TS-LP9393A cells >>>> that Victor (MetricMind) sells might be a good match: 200Ah (160Ah >>>> real-world), 160A max continuous discharge, 600A peak discharge rate. >>>> You'd need 43 of them for a 156V system, which works out to about >>>> $21.5k >>>> and 520lbs. If the sticker shock hasn't already put you off, the >>>> advantages of this option include a range of about 70mi to 80%DOD >>>> and a >>>> battery pack that could be sunk into the floor of the trunk (3 rows >>>> of >>>> 11 cells and one of 10 yields a pack that is about 31" x 29" x 12" >>>> tall), or possibly even under the rear seat. >>>> >>>> The Valence Saphion U24-12FN100 is another LiIon option. This is a >>>> 12V >>>> 100Ah (C/5) battery which includes the battery management system. A >>>> 156V (13 module) pack weighs about 382lbs. You'd have to limit your >>>> max >>>> battery current to about 200A which means a battery HP limit of about >>>> 42HP. I expect cost to be similar to that of the ThunderSky pack. >>>> >>>> If the Optima D31s will meet your range requirement, then a single >>>> string of them might be the best option as you will be able to take >>>> full >>>> advantage of your 1200A controller. >>>> >>>> If you don't feel you really need all that power every day, the >>>> Concordes are probably the better option as they have more capacity >>>> and >>>> so will give longer cycle life due to shallower DOD. >>>> >>>> The lowest cost option (both initially and over time) is an >>>> 1100-1200lb >>>> pack of flooded 6V or 8V golf car batteries. 18 8V modules gets you >>>> to >>>> a respectable 144V, and provided you set your battery current limit >>>> to >>>> about 300A they should yield decent life. 18 6V modules is 108V, >>>> which >>>> is considered a bit low by today's standards, but could be perfectly >>>> acceptable depending on your needs. >>>> >>>> Of course, anything you can do to reduce your EV's energy consuption >>>> below the 280Wh/mi I've estimated will reduce the DOD and increase >>>> the >>>> feasibility of the AGM options. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Roger. >>>> >> > >
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