EV Digest 4330
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: batteries and range
by John Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Smarts in the US
by "Donald Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: batteries and range
by John Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Progress on my Hybrid Trike
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: batteries and range
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Water heater (Re: electric heater core questions)
by "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Todd DC/DC converter noise?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: electric heater core questions
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: electric heater core questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) ZAP to Use ABAT Lithium-Ion Polymer Batteries in EVs
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: ZAP to Use ABAT Lithium-Ion Polymer Batteries in EVs
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: batteries and range
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: batteries and range
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: ZAP to Use ABAT Lithium-Ion Polymer Batteries in EVs
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: probably need new shocks/springs (struts) on the VoltsRabbit, also
drilling polypro
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Water heater (Re: electric heater core questions)
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Todd DC/DC converter noise?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: electric heater core questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: ZAP to Use ABAT Lithium-Ion Polymer Batteries in EVs
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: batteries and range
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: batteries and range
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Water heater (Re: electric heater core questions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: batteries and range
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: batteries and range
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This is great, you folks are awesome.
OK, I plan on getting a smart PBC 30 charger. Will that keep me out of
trouble with the Raptor 200 volt limit?
John
On May 2, 2005, at 5:42 PM, Nick Viera wrote:
Hi,
John Martin wrote:
I probably should go for 20 8 volts to get 160. I know the Raptor is
rated for 156, do you think 160 is going to matter?
What you describe above is exactly how I had my Cherokee for a year
and a half. I used to have a 156-volt Raptor 600 controller with
twenty 8-volt batteries (Trojan T-875s), for a nominal pack voltage of
160-volts.
I have a reed switch behind the "gas filler door" where my charger's
plug is located. Whenever my Jeep is charging, that door is opened,
and the reed switch triggers a relay which _cuts-off_ power to both
main contactors _and_ to the controller's ignition switch input
wire(s). Thus, there was no way the controller could ever/can ever see
pack voltage when charging. Note that I now use a 156-volt Zilla 1K
controller, and have had no problems with using either controller on
my 160-volt pack.
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From the link:
"ZAP recently announced that the Smart Car had received a Letter of
Conformity from the U.S. Department of Transportation and Environmental
Protection Agency, and the announcement today clears the car for sale in 45
U.S. states."
Did I miss which 5 states are _not_ included and why they are not included?
Donald
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 2:02 PM
Subject: Smarts in the US
> *If* this is true and indeed happening, we expect a great donors:
>
> http://www.zapworld.com/about/news/news_smartRegulatoryApproval.asp
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't afford batteries every year. It's looking more and more like
20, 8 volt Trojans should do it.
Fortunately I have time for this research. Eager to hear what the list
comes up with.
John
On May 2, 2005, at 9:11 PM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
If every trip uses 80% of your batteries capacity, then you will need
to
replace the batteries in less than a year.
If you can live with that, go for it.
Buying new D31s every year sounds kind of expensive to me.
Thanks Lawrence
I'm hoping that with less weight, wheel alignment and low rolling
resistance tires, I can make it.
John
On Apr 30, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
That at 59 pounds per battery is 767 pounds of batteries. I checked
Mapquest and it shows around 23 miles. Even a little shorter
distance
by 8%. With low rolling resistance tires it just might do it.
LR..........
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Martin"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: batteries and range
Thanks Roger
I'm going to go for the Optima D31s at 156 volts.
John
On Apr 29, 2005, at 1:06 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The range is more like 25 miles. I mentioned 30 miles so as not to
go
below 80%. If I can safely get 25 miles that would be perfect.
OK, 25mi @ 280Wh/mi is 7000Wh, so a single 156V string of Optima
D31s
looks like it might just barely do. Someone who has actually run a
set
would have to confirm what their real-world capacity is though. It
looks like if they can deliver at least 56Ah you'll get 25mi at
80%DOD.
Another option is LiIon. I hadn't mentioned it because the
up-front
cost is prohibitive for most of us. The ThunderSky TS-LP9393A
cells
that Victor (MetricMind) sells might be a good match: 200Ah (160Ah
real-world), 160A max continuous discharge, 600A peak discharge
rate.
You'd need 43 of them for a 156V system, which works out to about
$21.5k
and 520lbs. If the sticker shock hasn't already put you off, the
advantages of this option include a range of about 70mi to 80%DOD
and a
battery pack that could be sunk into the floor of the trunk (3 rows
of
11 cells and one of 10 yields a pack that is about 31" x 29" x 12"
tall), or possibly even under the rear seat.
The Valence Saphion U24-12FN100 is another LiIon option. This is a
12V
100Ah (C/5) battery which includes the battery management system.
A
156V (13 module) pack weighs about 382lbs. You'd have to limit
your
max
battery current to about 200A which means a battery HP limit of
about
42HP. I expect cost to be similar to that of the ThunderSky pack.
If the Optima D31s will meet your range requirement, then a single
string of them might be the best option as you will be able to take
full
advantage of your 1200A controller.
If you don't feel you really need all that power every day, the
Concordes are probably the better option as they have more capacity
and
so will give longer cycle life due to shallower DOD.
The lowest cost option (both initially and over time) is an
1100-1200lb
pack of flooded 6V or 8V golf car batteries. 18 8V modules gets
you
to
a respectable 144V, and provided you set your battery current limit
to
about 300A they should yield decent life. 18 6V modules is 108V,
which
is considered a bit low by today's standards, but could be
perfectly
acceptable depending on your needs.
Of course, anything you can do to reduce your EV's energy
consuption
below the 280Wh/mi I've estimated will reduce the DOD and increase
the
feasibility of the AGM options.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure... Send me the video. I can handle up to a Megabyte without a heads up.
If it is over that, tell me ahead of time so I can make some space.
Thanks.
If the back part of a leaning trike rolled over, I suspect the pivot was too
high and the track width was too narrow for the corner being attempted. I
will reserve my opinion until I see the video.
Your website is not working tonight. I can try again tomorrow.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 4:15 AM
Subject: RE: Progress on my Hybrid Trike
> Joe,
>
> Good questions.
>
> A single bearing lean steer requires a castor angle for the head angle.
> The problem with this lean steer system is that you get the same angle at
> all speeds.
>
> I am building a 2 bearing lean and independent steer system. I have never
> seen it done before. The steering will be done by feet only. The
> throttles, brakes, and leaning will be controlled by semi vertical bars
> connected to the rear part. I plan to hold myself at any angle by
pressure
> between the 2 bars. The horizontal bearing would allow me to go straight
> and lean as well (not used).
>
> I have a video of a powered leaning trike that a test rider flipped. As
he
> was leaning and steering in a left turn, the back part rotated and it
> flipped over to the right. I believe that if he had control of the back
by
> something like my vertical bars idea, he would not have crashed. If you
> like, I can send the video to you.
>
> As for wheels and lateral loads, see my recumbent trike file also at
> www.stulieberman.com ($100 elevator is there as well).
>
> Trikes that use 20" or smaller diameter bicycle wheels are never bothered
by
> lateral force damage. Most commercial tadpole trikes use 20" spoked
wheels
> and they go downhill as fast as 60 mph. However, look out when using
spoked
> 26" or 27" wheels as they can cause a 'side' trip.
>
> Thanks for looking and for commenting.
>
> BoyntonStu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Joe Smalley
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 12:37 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Progress on my Hybrid Trike
>
> I thought the leaning bearing axis needed to be aligned with the tire
patch
> of the front tire.
>
> It looks like it is parallel to the ground.
>
> Are you sure this is right?
>
> Where is that website and video of the tilting trike to show how they did
> it?
>
> Are the rear wheels rated to take the lateral force of a trike? It looks
> like they were designed for a tilting two wheeler. Three wheelers need
> stronger wheels than two wheelers because of the increased side load in
> three wheeler applications.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV LIST" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 4:32 PM
> Subject: Progress on my Hybrid Trike
>
>
> > Visit www.stulieberman.com <http://www.stulieberman.com/> and view
> hybrid
> > trike folder.
> >
> >
> >
> > Some details:
> >
> >
> >
> > 6-33 AH wheelchair batteries
> >
> > 6.5 HP B&S I/C engine powers left rear
> >
> > 8" 36V 80 Amp motor to be run at 48 V
> >
> > 12.5" wheels and frames from 2 scooters
> >
> > Battery case and engine/motor mount from bed frames angle
> >
> > Oxy/acet and oxy/propane brazing
> >
> >
> >
> > Notice 2 headsets and 2 forks: horizontal headset/fork #1 for leaning
in
> > turns, #2 fork
> >
> > For steering.
> >
> >
> >
> > Curtis 36-48 1204 Controller
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Boyntonstu
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello
They've got these 6 Volt golf cart batteries at Sam's
Club for $49. Is it the cost that makes them the best
deal. How many years of use can you get out of them?
--- John Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can't afford batteries every year. It's looking
> more and more like
> 20, 8 volt Trojans should do it.
> Fortunately I have time for this research. Eager to
> hear what the list
> comes up with.
>
> John
>
> On May 2, 2005, at 9:11 PM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> > If every trip uses 80% of your batteries capacity,
> then you will need
> > to
> > replace the batteries in less than a year.
> > If you can live with that, go for it.
> >
> > Buying new D31s every year sounds kind of
> expensive to me.
> >
> >
> >> Thanks Lawrence
> >>
> >> I'm hoping that with less weight, wheel alignment
> and low rolling
> >> resistance tires, I can make it.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >> On Apr 30, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Lawrence Rhodes
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> That at 59 pounds per battery is 767 pounds of
> batteries. I checked
> >>> Mapquest and it shows around 23 miles. Even a
> little shorter
> >>> distance
> >>> by 8%. With low rolling resistance tires it
> just might do it.
> >>> LR..........
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Martin"
>
> >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> To: <[email protected]>
> >>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 8:08 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: batteries and range
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Thanks Roger
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm going to go for the Optima D31s at 156
> volts.
> >>>>
> >>>> John
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Apr 29, 2005, at 1:06 PM, Roger Stockton
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The range is more like 25 miles. I mentioned
> 30 miles so as not to
> >>>>>> go
> >>>>>> below 80%. If I can safely get 25 miles that
> would be perfect.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> OK, 25mi @ 280Wh/mi is 7000Wh, so a single
> 156V string of Optima
> >>>>> D31s
> >>>>> looks like it might just barely do. Someone
> who has actually run a
> >>>>> set
> >>>>> would have to confirm what their real-world
> capacity is though. It
> >>>>> looks like if they can deliver at least 56Ah
> you'll get 25mi at
> >>>>> 80%DOD.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another option is LiIon. I hadn't mentioned
> it because the
> >>>>> up-front
> >>>>> cost is prohibitive for most of us. The
> ThunderSky TS-LP9393A
> >>>>> cells
> >>>>> that Victor (MetricMind) sells might be a good
> match: 200Ah (160Ah
> >>>>> real-world), 160A max continuous discharge,
> 600A peak discharge
> >>>>> rate.
> >>>>> You'd need 43 of them for a 156V system, which
> works out to about
> >>>>> $21.5k
> >>>>> and 520lbs. If the sticker shock hasn't
> already put you off, the
> >>>>> advantages of this option include a range of
> about 70mi to 80%DOD
> >>>>> and a
> >>>>> battery pack that could be sunk into the floor
> of the trunk (3 rows
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> 11 cells and one of 10 yields a pack that is
> about 31" x 29" x 12"
> >>>>> tall), or possibly even under the rear seat.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Valence Saphion U24-12FN100 is another
> LiIon option. This is a
> >>>>> 12V
> >>>>> 100Ah (C/5) battery which includes the battery
> management system.
> >>>>> A
> >>>>> 156V (13 module) pack weighs about 382lbs.
> You'd have to limit
> >>>>> your
> >>>>> max
> >>>>> battery current to about 200A which means a
> battery HP limit of
> >>>>> about
> >>>>> 42HP. I expect cost to be similar to that of
> the ThunderSky pack.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If the Optima D31s will meet your range
> requirement, then a single
> >>>>> string of them might be the best option as you
> will be able to take
> >>>>> full
> >>>>> advantage of your 1200A controller.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you don't feel you really need all that
> power every day, the
> >>>>> Concordes are probably the better option as
> they have more capacity
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> so will give longer cycle life due to
> shallower DOD.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The lowest cost option (both initially and
> over time) is an
> >>>>> 1100-1200lb
> >>>>> pack of flooded 6V or 8V golf car batteries.
> 18 8V modules gets
> >>>>> you
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> a respectable 144V, and provided you set your
> battery current limit
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> about 300A they should yield decent life. 18
> 6V modules is 108V,
> >>>>> which
> >>>>> is considered a bit low by today's standards,
> but could be
> >>>>> perfectly
> >>>>> acceptable depending on your needs.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Of course, anything you can do to reduce your
> EV's energy
> >>>>> consuption
> >>>>> below the 280Wh/mi I've estimated will reduce
> the DOD and increase
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> feasibility of the AGM options.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roger.
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor, Mike, James and others,
Thanks for all the input. Since I have already done the hard part of
disassembling the dash, I am going to follow through with the ceramic
heater core.
I was considering cutting a hole and making a patch so I could easily
make a repair in the future should the need arise. Having
I need to do some more investigations to what will have to be
moved/removed to access the patch location after the batteries, motor
and transmission is back in place.
Given that I will be using an electric resistive heater, any comments
on using 9mm thick sheets of acrylic to construct a frame? The heater
supposedly self limits at 180 degrees.
On Monday, May 2, 2005, at 10:37 AM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
John
After all cutting and patching is done, you may realize that you
could be better off just using a water heater designed to work
in electric vehicles with stock cores. MES-DEA is one of the companies
making those - DC input with 100-250VDC and 200-450VDC input ranges;
2, 3, and 4 Kw versions. Some info is here:
http://www.metricmind.com/heater_w.htm
More detail (I use it in ACRX):
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/heating.htm
Again, it is more expensive that ceramic core, but everyone I talked to
about it who has done dash removal, saying if they knew what's
involved,
they'd just buy it, install in half hour and forget it. All depends
how much your time worth.
I can sell it to you, welcome to consider all above as a plug, but
I'm also happy MES customer myself as well, so recommend the
product as good one.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
John O'Connor wrote:
...
Thanks Mike,
The factory manual indicated the dash had to be removed. What it
didn't say was that in addition to the dash, the steering column and
the entire ventilation system also has to be disassembled. I did all
this back in February (the parts are all still laid out in the living
room) and I NEVER want to have to do again if I can help it.
All that work is required because the heater core slips into the
heater box from the front of the vehicle. Cutting a hole in the
firewall (with a replaceable cover of some sort maybe) seems to be an
elegant way to provide access in case I need it for
repair/replacement of the electric heater core.
Is there any way to questemate the kind of structural damage I would
be doing by cutting such a hole in the firewall? The vehicle is an 86
Nissan Kingcab Pickup.
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The capacitors are rated for 200 VDC. The MOSFET is rated for 400 Vds.
The MOSFET is subjected to ((the input voltage - two diode drops) *2) - one
diode drop.
Your margin to failure is extremely small. I think you have been extremely
lucky for that unit to last this long.
You can add a precharge circuit externally by starting the Todd through a
resistor and then shorting out the resistor after about a tenth of a second.
After the resistor is shorted, then you can connect the converter to the
load. Don't try connecting the load until the input is at full voltage. It
will cause the Todd to overheat and fail.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: Todd DC/DC converter noise?
> Hi,
>
> Here's another question: My pack finish charges at ~195 volts. I wonder
> how safe it is to run this DC/DC up to these kinds of voltages? Anyone
> know what the input caps and such are rated at? Hopefully it can handle
> it, as plugging/unplugging this thing is annoying, even more so than
> my DCP unit was (large sparks).
>
> I sure wish that these DC/DC converters would have precharge circuits
> built in them...
>
> Thanks,
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just like Brusa put the caps in NLG4s so they are hard to repair ;-)
Maybe there is a touch of conspiracy theory there, Victor.
Maybe the heater core just happend to fit there. Try that one with
Occam's razor.
Seth
On May 2, 2005, at 1:04 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
...
Hopefully there is a place in Hell for engineers that design things
this
way. Their punishment is that they have to replace these heater cores
for eternity (that should be long enough to get a few done :-)
You don't get it Lee - they were *told to* integrate the
heater the most complicated way so service can charge
you for the most labor hours should it brake...
Why should they make *your* life easier? You're not the one
who is [suppose to] work on a vehice, so why bother?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Hopefully there is a place in Hell for engineers that design
>> things [unserviceable]
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> You don't get it Lee - they were *told to* integrate the heater
> the most complicated way so service can charge you for the most
> labor hours should it brake.
Possibly. But I've worked at several large companies as a design
engineer. Management *never* told us to make things unserviceable. In
fact, they were almost always totally clueless about serviceability.
They generally ignored it completely, or gave only lip service to it.
Young or inexperienced engineers also knew nothing about serviceability
-- so they too ignored it in their designs.
It was usually the older or more experienced engineers that thought
about serviceability. Often, they had "come up through the ranks", and
worked as mechanics or technicians before becoming engineers. Thus, they
had a good working knowledge of repairing and servicing things. Most of
us (and I am of this group) have had our share of sweating over some
misbegotten design and swore, "I'll NEVER design anything this bad!"
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From Green Car Congress.
ZAP will begin using Advanced Battery Technologies' (ABAT) Lithium-Ion
Polymer batteries in its electric vehicles.
Under the first phase of a new agreement, ABAT will retrofit a range of ZAP
electric vehicles with its Lithium Polymer batteries and chargers.
According to ZAP, initial testing shows that the ABAT batteries will
increase the run time of ZAP's three and four-wheel vehicles by three times
over Lead-Acid batteries. The threefold increase in energy density of the
lithium polymer batteries could enable a similar threefold increase in
transportation range for comparable-weight batteries, enabling ZAP's
vehicles to achieve a significantly increased driving range between electric
recharges.
ABAT is a relatively new Chinese company developing, manufacturing and
distributing rechargeable Lithium-Ion Polymer batteries.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anybody here talked to ABAT?
Do we have any idea if they are making EV sized batteries which we can
buy?
Just curious.
Thanks!
On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 11:25:55PM -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >From Green Car Congress.
> ZAP will begin using Advanced Battery Technologies' (ABAT) Lithium-Ion
> Polymer batteries in its electric vehicles.
>
> Under the first phase of a new agreement, ABAT will retrofit a range of ZAP
> electric vehicles with its Lithium Polymer batteries and chargers.
>
> According to ZAP, initial testing shows that the ABAT batteries will
> increase the run time of ZAP's three and four-wheel vehicles by three times
> over Lead-Acid batteries. The threefold increase in energy density of the
> lithium polymer batteries could enable a similar threefold increase in
> transportation range for comparable-weight batteries, enabling ZAP's
> vehicles to achieve a significantly increased driving range between
> electric recharges.
>
> ABAT is a relatively new Chinese company developing, manufacturing and
> distributing rechargeable Lithium-Ion Polymer batteries.
>
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are some Sealed Trojans and Flooded Trojan 12v models that weigh 70 to
90 pounds. Anyone have experience with these batteries and can we get the HC
Trojans in the USA? LR
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: batteries and range
Thanks every one.
I need to commute about 25 miles with this EV. I like the Raptor and I got
it for a good price. Plus its air cooled not water cooled.
I like the Optimas but the reality is I probably should go for 20 8 volts
to get 160. I know the Raptor is rated for 156, do you think 160 is going
to matter?
John
On May 2, 2005, at 12:12 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How does the Exide Orbital 34s compare to the Optima D31 for range?
The Exide Orbital D34 compares to the Optima D34, as both as 40-ish
pound AGMs. The Optima D31 is a larger, 60lb battery. The Optima D34
and Orbital D34 are both rated 55Ah (C/20), while the D31 is rated 75Ah
(C/20). In the real world, the Optima D34 delivers about 40Ah (C/1), so
the D31 should deliver about 50% more, or near 60Ah, based on its
roughly 50% greater weight. Before you commit to this battery, try to
get 'testimonials' from EVers who've used the D31 to confirm that it
will meet your range requirements. Better still, invest in a sample and
test it (or have it tested).
Seth Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Personally, if you want to go 30 miles I think you need more capacity
than a 156V string of D31s. They will work fine for a while, but
without headroom as soon as you lose any range, then the car
cannot do its primary task. So I would say you need more capacity as
a buffer.
I agree with Seth. At 30 miles, the D31s probably can't cut it; at 25
miles it looks like they would just make it at 80% DOD. As Seth notes,
if you *need* 80% of rated capacity to make your trip, then the useful
life of your pack is shorter since you'll have to replace it when your
capacity drops to near 80% of new. For decent life with AGMs, DOD
should really not exceed 50% on a regular basis.
If the 25mi trip is not your daily commute, but rather an occasional
trip that you want to be able to manage, then the D31s might still be
worthy of consideration. If you need to go 25mi between charges on a
daily basis then you probably want more battery capacity so that you
aren't replacing your pack every year.
If you stick with the 156V max DCP1200, you may well have no choice but
to go with a pack of flooded 8Vers. If you want to avoid floodeds, you
might be better off getting rid of the DCP and picking up a 300V Zilla
1K so that you can get your capacity by using a slightly longer string
of AGMs than the 156V DCP allows.
Cheers,
Roger.
JFM Digital Imaging
415-472-4482
www.jfmdigital.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence wrote:
> There are some Sealed Trojans and Flooded Trojan 12v models that weigh 70 to
> 90 pounds. Anyone have experience with these batteries and can we get the HC
> Trojans in the USA?
Are you talking about the AGM's? I was wondering about those too...
http://www.trojan-battery.com/Products/NewProducts.aspx
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--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
> Has anybody here talked to ABAT?
I just found what appears to be their website...
http://www.zqpt.com/zqenglish/index.htm
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--- Begin Message ---
Mike, I posted my ride heights at
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/car_heights.txt. It seems that
the RR (the corner with the thunking noise) has gone down even as
the tire height has gone up. Probably things have settled some
spring-wise, but I think the thunk in the RR means at least that
shock needs to go. Right now, I'm leaning towards having you
test the springs in late May, but we'll see what develops over
the next week or two.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: probably need new shocks/springs (struts) on the
VoltsRabbit, also drilling polypro
> Mike Brown (ElectroAutomotive - [EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > At 10:07 PM 4/27/05 -0400, you wrote:
> > >The srsvw springs aren't for lowering, as I noted- they are
> for stock ride
> > >heights. As for stiffening: increasing the spring rate is
the
> point, as
> > >the load is greatly increased.
> >
> > I'm not sure the effect would be the same. The people these
> springs were
> > intended for are tweaking handling, not adding weight. If
> anything, they
> > are probably lightening their cars.
> >
> > >I suppose if he wants, he can get the same springs as
before,
> but it
> > >appears they sagged?
> >
> > We've been issuing these same springs on Voltsrabbits since
> 1991, this is
> > the first report of "sagging" we have had - and we had these
on
> our own
> > Voltsrabbit, the prototype, which was driven in the mountains
> all that time.
> >
> > Chuck, if you have the ability to have the car down for a
short
> time, we
> > could arrange to have your springs tested, to see whether
they
> HAVE
> > sagged. If not, no point replacing them.
>
> Mike, the car is scheduled to be in Redwood City starting about
> May 22, when we are to put a new pack in the car and do other
> work. The plan is to have it down there till about June 4. So
I
> could have the springs out for a few days. However, I would
like
> to put a few cycles on those new batteries down there on the
> flats before I hit them with the hills back up here in Marin.
I
> also know that one of our NBEAA members is bringing a Mustang
> tranny down to you for adapter plate machining, so maybe we
could
> coordinate with him for getting the springs to/from your shop
(at
> least one of the trips).
>
> The thunking sound I am experiencing from that corner - sounds
> like a worn out shock. The nut on top is tight. Could a
rubber
> piece at the top, if there is one, collapse and lower that
> corner?
>
> Let me get you the numbers from my logbook: stock diesel
height,
> then the change of ride heights down through the years.
> Something has settled... Will be a day or two.
> >
> > Quite a bit of engineering went into getting these springs
> wound to carry
> > the load and maintain stock ride height. The first run of
> springs was
> > three sets. When we made the next run, and sent out one set
to
> a customer,
> > he complained that the car sat too high. After discussing
this
> with the
> > springmaker, we found out that he had made the first three
sets
> out of
> > material he had on hand, and the following sets were from new
> material of a
> > different alloy. I think this illustrates some of the
problems
> that a
> > small difference can make.
> >
> > Mike Brown
> >
> > Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone
> 831-429-1989
> > http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos *
> Since 1979
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:27 PM 2/05/05 -0700, John O'Connor wrote:
Victor, Mike, James and others,
Thanks for all the input. Since I have already done the hard part of
disassembling the dash, I am going to follow through with the ceramic
heater core.<snip>
Given that I will be using an electric resistive heater, any comments on
using 9mm thick sheets of acrylic to construct a frame? The heater
supposedly self limits at 180 degrees.
Hi John (and all)
The frame to support the elements needs to be able to retain its'
structural integrity when hot, also to have a high degree of heat tolerance
and be self-extinguishing as far as possible. Acrylic is really none of these.
Look for a ceramic heater of a cube style. If you can find the right one,
the elements will be in a sub-frame inside. Alternatively the housing
itself could be cut down to be used. You could probably mount a subframe
unit in acrylic safely, although there are a lot of better materials. If
you are absolutely unable to come up with some suitable material, give me
some sizes and I'll cut some bits off the part-sheet that I've got and send
them to you (if nobody closer to you doesn't volunteer some).
Regards
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Joe Smalley wrote:
The capacitors are rated for 200 VDC. The MOSFET is rated for 400 Vds.
Good to know.
Your margin to failure is extremely small. I think you have been extremely
lucky for that unit to last this long.
Actually, I just got this unit last week and it has only been installed
in my Jeep for two days now. I've never had this Todd turned on during
charging yet, and after reading your posts, I won't plan to ever have it
on during charging.
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My master mechanic, said, before you purchase a vehicle, check the best
maintenance ease and labor hours it takes to replace a items in a service
manual.
It will show on some cars it will take 8 labor hours to change out a heater
core, while others like my 1975 Chevelle it takes less than a hour!!
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: electric heater core questions
>> Hopefully there is a place in Hell for engineers that design
>> things [unserviceable]
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> You don't get it Lee - they were *told to* integrate the heater
> the most complicated way so service can charge you for the most
> labor hours should it brake.
Possibly. But I've worked at several large companies as a design
engineer. Management *never* told us to make things unserviceable. In
fact, they were almost always totally clueless about serviceability.
They generally ignored it completely, or gave only lip service to it.
Young or inexperienced engineers also knew nothing about serviceability
-- so they too ignored it in their designs.
It was usually the older or more experienced engineers that thought
about serviceability. Often, they had "come up through the ranks", and
worked as mechanics or technicians before becoming engineers. Thus, they
had a good working knowledge of repairing and servicing things. Most of
us (and I am of this group) have had our share of sweating over some
misbegotten design and swore, "I'll NEVER design anything this bad!"
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Nick
No product specifications online just claims. Seems to
be the same things ZAP is famous for. Match made in
heaven and I will believe it when I see it.
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nick Austin wrote:
> > Has anybody here talked to ABAT?
>
> I just found what appears to be their website...
>
> http://www.zqpt.com/zqenglish/index.htm
>
>
Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jude Anthony wrote:
> Yeah, but isn't that 30 to 45 minutes /each way/? Unless he's
> got charging at the midpoint (like I don't, </bitter whining>)
> that brings the total discharge time to 1 to 1.5 hours. The
> batteries get a rest-and-refresh between legs, but it still
> sounds like the group wisdom points to floodies.
You're right; that's 1-1.5 hours to discharge. But since "less than 1
hour" is AGM territory and "more than 1 hour" is flooded territory, he
can use either -- this won't be the deciding factor. He'll have to use
cost, life, mess, how fast he wants to accellerate, etc. to put the
"thumb on the scale" to choose between AGMs and floodeds.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
John Martin wrote:
> OK, I plan on getting a smart PBC 30 charger. Will that keep me
> out of trouble with the Raptor 200 volt limit?
Do you mean a Manzanita Micro PFC30 charger? If so, then the maximum
voltage it puts out can be set with a pot. You can set it too low or too
high if you aren't careful.
A second concern is that the PFCxx chargers are NOT isolated! There is a
direct connection from the AC power line to their DC output. With
flooded batteries, you always have a little acidic mist on top, causing
leakage currents to ground. With a non-isolated charger, the consequence
of this leakage current is worse; it causes faster corrosion and shock
hazards.
You can constantly keep cleaning your batteries, and install a GFCI
ground fault circuit interruptor), but you will still get nuisance
ground faults that prevent charging on wet, misty days.
If you want to use a PFCxx charger with flooded batteries, I would
include an isolation transformer ahead of the charger and/or put the
batteries in an insulated plastic box so leakage paths can't get to
ground.
One more thing; a non-isolated charger passes all AC line transient
right through to everything connected to their output -- that means all
the wiring in your EV, including the controller. 1000-volt transients
are common on the AC line, and can reach 6000 volts during
thunderstorms. Your controller isn't built to survive such events. So, I
would include a switch or contactors to disconnect BOTH positive and
negative wires between the battery pack and controller during charging.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John O'Connor wrote:
>
> Victor, Mike, James and others,
>
> Thanks for all the input. Since I have already done the hard part of
> disassembling the dash, I am going to follow through with the ceramic
> heater core.
> I was considering cutting a hole and making a patch so I could easily
> make a repair in the future should the need arise. Having
> I need to do some more investigations to what will have to be
> moved/removed to access the patch location after the batteries, motor
> and transmission is back in place.
>
> Given that I will be using an electric resistive heater, any comments
> on using 9mm thick sheets of acrylic to construct a frame? The heater
> supposedly self limits at 180 degrees.
No! Don't use a thermoplastic to mount a heater! That's nitwit
engineering. First, you can't trust that 180 degree limit for the
heater. Second, thermoplastics get soft and sag well before they
actually melt. Third, they burn!
I would use something like bakelite, phenolic, or glass-epoxy FR4
circuit board material. They survive far higher temperatures, won't
melt, won't deform or sag, and if you get the fire-retardant grades
(that's what the FR4 means) they won't burn.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub wrote:
>
> Hello
>
> They've got these 6 Volt golf cart batteries at Sam's
> Club for $49. Is it the cost that makes them the best
> deal. How many years of use can you get out of them?
I ran a set of twelve Sam's Club 6v golf cart batteries in my ComutaVan
for 7 years. At the end, they were down to about 50% capacity and I had
to replace one of them.
Interestingly enough, the first batch were Exide, and the one
replacement was a Trojan. So, they apparently buy whatever brand they
get the best deal on at the moment.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Martin"
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: batteries and range
>I can't afford batteries every year. It's looking more and more like
> 20, 8 volt Trojans should do it.
> Fortunately I have time for this research. Eager to hear what the list
> comes up with.
John,
Lee Hart has a Battery Balancer that he has designed. He, and others, have used
it for the past 6+ years, he told me that his set of Concord AGM's are doing
fine. It is a balancer, a DC/DC converter, a battery pack temp monitor, can be
used to control a charger and is in fact a very slow charger. I have asked him
to incorporate a normal, 6 to 4 hr, charger in the next version. He is
currently getting a group of people together so that when he orders the PC
boards and parts, quantity wise it is less expensive. Check out the Balancer at
http://www.geocities.com/sorefeets/balancerland/. Contact Lee or me off list if
you are interested.
To me, even as a newbie, it is a no-brainer that if I can spend around $700 for
one piece of equipment that will balance my batteries and probably double the
pack life which will also serve as a DC/DC converter, a pack temp monitor (turn
on and off fans for pack cooling), and hopefully be a charger, then I should do
it. Which is better saving (DC/DC converter $1000 + Charger $1500 = $2500 min -
Hart Balancer ~$700) about $1800 and having a battery pack which last almost
twice as long or spending (20 T-875 @ $85) $1700 every two years? Obviously
those numbers are not gospel, but only illustrate the savings that are
possible.
Rush
Tucson AZ
Converting an '86 Mitsubishi
www.ironandwood.org
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