EV Digest 4331
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Water heater (Re: electric heater core questions)
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Water heater (Re: electric heater core questions)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) ABAT Lithium-Ion Polymer Batteries in EVs
by Ed Blackmond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: batteries and range
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: batteries and range
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: electric heater core questions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: possible DCP controller issue - help
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: possible DCP controller issue - help
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Serviceability (was electric heater core questions)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: electric heater core questions
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: ZAP to Use ABAT Lithium-Ion Polymer Batteries in EVs
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Smarts in the US
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: electric heater core questions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) A good EV philosophy
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Smarts in the US
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Raptor 1200 for Miramar high school
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Water heater (Re: electric heater core questions)-core frame materials
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: OT: Listproc commands - Digest vs Ack
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: battery help needed
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: ZAP to Use ABAT Lithium-Ion Polymer Batteries in EVs
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Raptor 1200 for Miramar high school
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: batteries and range
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: battery help needed
by Thomas J webster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Serviceability (was electric heater core questions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: A good EV philosophy
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) EVLN(Chinese Polymer Li-Ion Batteries for ZAP)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: Water heater (Re: electric heater core questions)
> Given that I will be using an electric resistive heater, any comments
> on using 9mm thick sheets of acrylic to construct a frame? The heater
> supposedly self limits at 180 degrees.
>
I don't think that using plexi or acrylic in a situation near heat is safe at
all. And more importantly, if I understand you correctly, as a patch in a
firewall....
Plexi starts deforming at about 200 deg. I have used an oven many times to bend
a piece of plexi to a curve and the temp in the oven was between 200 and 225.
So no, from my own personal experience I would definitely not use plexi as a
patch, frame or whatever in your circumstances.
Rush
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have an idea. Go to the local motor shop and get a piece of bakelite.
They told me they have it in sheets up to 5/8" thick!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bought a bunch of batteries from these guys last fall for testing
purposes. Life has happened, so I haven't done as much testing as I
wanted to by now.
I purchased some 11.1V 10Ah and some 14.8V 10Ah batteries. To make
these batteries, they put together five 3.7V cells in parallel to get a
3.7V 10Ah module. For the 11.1V battery they put three of these
modules in series. To get the 14.8V battery, they put 4 of these
modules in series. These batteries include a BMS that is made from
standard laptop/cell phone lithium ion control chips and FETs. All of
this is held together with heat shrink tubing.
The batteries were advertised as being able to handle 10C discharge.
Using a carbon pile tester I was able to get 4.5C discharges. Greater
than that and the BMS shut down. The BMS also shuts down at about 100%
DOD when drawing at 4C. The batteries do not get warm, but the parts
on the BMS do get warm.
I put together a 59.2V 20Ah pack and put it into my EVT 168. The BMS
on each battery burned out after about half a mile, but I could tell
losing over 100 pounds made a huge difference in how the scooter
handled. All the individual cells seem to be fine and I was planning
on designing my own BMS for a larger pack anyway.
I have one battery with about 100 cycles on it, but I have not had a
chance to build a serious cycler yet. They claim 600 cycles to 80%
DOD. If I can prove that they meet that, then I will definitely buy
from them.
ABAT will build modules of any voltage (integral multiple of 3.7V) and
any capacity (integral multiples of 2Ah). They quoted a price to me
for a 3.7V 50Ah module (without their BMS which I can't use anyway) of
US$80.00. That is US$0.43 per nominal watt hour.
A week ago, they announced two new products (37V 10Ah and 25.9V 10Ah)
that include a BMS and leads to bypass the BMS. The BMS leads can be
used to monitor the batteries when operating in bypass mode. I
suggested to them that they include an opto-isolated digital output
that indicates when the BMS would attempt to shut down. This could go
to a controller that could shut down the motor or charger, or at least
warn the operator that death was imminent.
It is clear that they intend to compete on price. Lower price is what
we need for these batteries.
Ed
On Tuesday, May 3, 2005, at 12:00 AM, Nick Austin wrote:
Has anybody here talked to ABAT?
Do we have any idea if they are making EV sized batteries which we can
buy?
Just curious.
Thanks!
On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 11:25:55PM -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
From Green Car Congress.
ZAP will begin using Advanced Battery Technologies' (ABAT) Lithium-Ion
Polymer batteries in its electric vehicles.
Under the first phase of a new agreement, ABAT will retrofit a range
of ZAP
electric vehicles with its Lithium Polymer batteries and chargers.
According to ZAP, initial testing shows that the ABAT batteries will
increase the run time of ZAP's three and four-wheel vehicles by three
times
over Lead-Acid batteries. The threefold increase in energy density of
the
lithium polymer batteries could enable a similar threefold increase in
transportation range for comparable-weight batteries, enabling ZAP's
vehicles to achieve a significantly increased driving range between
electric recharges.
ABAT is a relatively new Chinese company developing, manufacturing and
distributing rechargeable Lithium-Ion Polymer batteries.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts"
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: batteries and range
> Are you talking about the AGM's? I was wondering about those too...
>
> http://www.trojan-battery.com/Products/NewProducts.aspx
>
Yeah Ryan, I just noticed these also...
But no info on them, the links all have a runtime error on them...
Rush
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No it won't. The limit is based on the battery pack charging voltage. You
might try one less battery if you use 8v batteries. However if you can find
some 12v Panasonic Highoutput batteries that might solve your problem. 20
of those will give you over 60 miles range. They have 50% more energy
density than regular lead acid. But at 300 apiece are expensive. EV bones
may have some used. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: batteries and range
This is great, you folks are awesome.
OK, I plan on getting a smart PBC 30 charger. Will that keep me out of
trouble with the Raptor 200 volt limit?
John
On May 2, 2005, at 5:42 PM, Nick Viera wrote:
Hi,
John Martin wrote:
I probably should go for 20 8 volts to get 160. I know the Raptor is
rated for 156, do you think 160 is going to matter?
What you describe above is exactly how I had my Cherokee for a year and a
half. I used to have a 156-volt Raptor 600 controller with twenty 8-volt
batteries (Trojan T-875s), for a nominal pack voltage of 160-volts.
I have a reed switch behind the "gas filler door" where my charger's plug
is located. Whenever my Jeep is charging, that door is opened, and the
reed switch triggers a relay which _cuts-off_ power to both main
contactors _and_ to the controller's ignition switch input wire(s). Thus,
there was no way the controller could ever/can ever see pack voltage when
charging. Note that I now use a 156-volt Zilla 1K controller, and have
had no problems with using either controller on my 160-volt pack.
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you expecting BRUSA chargers to be assembled as Ramsey hobby kits?
I think it would be disaster for company reputation if anyone
would be allowed to go to radio shack buy parts and attempt
to fix a charger.
Next thing someone will claim that "wonderful BRUSA charger blew
up my batteries after I repaired it"...
Don't get me wrong, I like to be able to repair everything
myself too, but I see why manufacturers wouldn't want me to.
I see why it can be good for an average customer.
Sorry, I have no idea what Occam's razor iz.
Victor
Seth Allen wrote:
Just like Brusa put the caps in NLG4s so they are hard to repair ;-)
Maybe there is a touch of conspiracy theory there, Victor.
Maybe the heater core just happend to fit there. Try that one with
Occam's razor.
Seth
On May 2, 2005, at 1:04 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
...
Hopefully there is a place in Hell for engineers that design things this
way. Their punishment is that they have to replace these heater cores
for eternity (that should be long enough to get a few done :-)
You don't get it Lee - they were *told to* integrate the
heater the most complicated way so service can charge
you for the most labor hours should it brake...
Why should they make *your* life easier? You're not the one
who is [suppose to] work on a vehice, so why bother?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Of course the stand offs can be shortened a bit. But this doesn't save you
much.
Most of the problems are the gate drive wire or connector from the
controller to the power stage.
If these were gold contacts and a bit stoutter they would not be a problem.
I have # 22, and have never had even a blink in performance. So....look for
corosion.
Rich
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: possible DCP controller issue - help
> Since DCP isn't making these anymore, I will speak up about a thing I
> noticed. When I looked at a Raptor, I thought the path from the bus
> caps to the switches was longish and subject to
> corrosion/epxansion/vibration, as I recall it was thru standoffs.
>
> The best design I have seen (a SEMIKRON AIPM) has a huge film cap
> almost on top of the IGBT dies, *inside* the EMI shield, and it will
> tolerate low inductance high current loads better than anything elese I
> have seen. Like single digit microhenry inductive loads with a 400V
> bus.
>
> A simple thing to try would be adding some fast capacitance across the
> bus, maybe poor connections are making for noise? Some 400V film caps
> as closely coupled as possible?
>
> Just a suggestion, but maybe the toll of time has made the bus cap
> connection worse, and the noise worse, with the result being a fault.
>
> Seth
>
>
> On May 1, 2005, at 6:37 PM, Steven Ciciora wrote:
>
> > I'm having a similar problem. As a matter of fact, I
> > got the truck at a great price because of this
> > problem. Both the previous owner and myself thought
> > it was a slipping clutch. Between the both of us, we
> > replaced just about everything possible associated
> > with the cluth; no improvement. Some notes on my
> > problem:
> > -Only happens when moving. At a stop, with break
> > pressed (stalled motor), does not happen. I take this
> > to mean that it requires the motor to be under load,
> > or the controller to be delivering power, not just
> > current. The stalled motor (no back emf, but lots of
> > current) isn't delivering much power.
> > -Seems to (usually) go away when it warms up. But
> > for all practical purposes, it is rendering the truck
> > unusable.
> > -I hooked a battery powered fluke sopemeter to the
> > motor voltage and battery voltage. Battery voltage
> > goes up when this happens, motor voltage cuts out at
> > around a 60 Hz rate.
> > -I made a motor dummy load out of some _large_
> > inductors and some thin wall stainless tubing in a
> > tank of water. While not quite the same, it cuts out
> > with the motor simulator. So I don't believe it's the
> > motor at fault. Bill Dube' lent me an old 'Zilla
> > controller; I'll probably put that in the truck while
> > I'm figuring out the DCP problem.
> > -I have taken the controller apart, and reversed a
> > good portion of the schematic of the controller board.
> > I hope to figure more of it out, put the controller
> > mostly back together and probe around with the
> > controller under load to help figure out what's going
> > on.
> >
> > Any thoughts/suggestions/past experiences would be
> > greatly appreciated!
> >
> > Steven Ciciora
> >
> > --- "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> This message was from the current owner of the 1981
> >> Rabbit Pickup EV
> >> that I built. I know the Pickup has a 120 volt pack
> >> of Trojan T-125
> >> batteries that is about 6 months old and is running
> >> a DCP 450
> >> controller (a baby version of the 156 volt DCP 600.)
> >>
> >>>>> Lately when driving there are isolated times
> >> when I have the
> >> sensation of driving over a grate. There is a rapid
> >> vibration followed
> >> by a brief power decrease. There hasn't been any
> >> voltage
> >> irregularities that I can see until this
> >> morning.... I was having that
> >> vibration and a decrease in power that made me think
> >> I might not make
> >> it to work. Then I checked the voltage and it was
> >> dropping down into
> >> the high 80's and 90's. When I took my foot off the
> >> accelator the
> >> voltage jumped back up. I pulled off the raod and
> >> sat for a minute and
> >> when I got back on the road I didn't have any more
> >> problems. Can you
> >> enlighten me?<<<
> >>
> >> If anyone on this list (that I know is full of DCP
> >> users :-) has any
> >> insight please let me know either on or off list. I
> >> will forward the
> >> information to the current owner who is not on the
> >> list. I have again
> >> reminded her to drive more by the volt meter and
> >> less by the SOC
> >> function of the e-meter, especially in cooler
> >> weather. The batteries
> >> should be staying pretty balanced - its a Lester
> >> charger.
> >>
> >> Paul "neon" G.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea this is a easy fix.
My Raptor has never had a issue, but the T-Rex simply won't run with a Tach
sensor... and a Kostov. The T-Rex is on the Fiero doing Dyno work, and it
has a 30 Ft Tach cable that winds around all the main current cables... and
it's VERY solid Of course the motor under test is a AvDC 8 incher... was a
Sparrow motor, Was Dave Cloud's, Now MINE!!!
Stocker...with those 12 turn fields, and a 37 bar comm.... and movable
brushes.......
But for now the T-Rex is working very well with a tach sensor.
Oh yea..... possible thing to check is the tach sensor itself. I had to
resolder the power leads in mine after I tripped over the cable. This if
course didn't help the senor much.
But the little wires can fatigue off right as they go into the Potting Goop,
Carve out the goop and resolder. Epoxy back together.
Rich Rudman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: possible DCP controller issue - help
> Probably different as I recall it as being a more violent sensation then
> just driving over a grate, but...
>
> once upon a time I discovered that if the DCP speed sensor gets dirty,
> it produces erroneous speed readings which makes the controller briefly
> shut down and then repeats. So on a miserable cold rainy day, drive
> through muddy puddle; sensor gets splashed; controller thinks motor is
> over-revving so cuts off; then thinks all is OK so turns back on
> (suddenly), then back off, and so on; I get out, open hood (in the rain)
> and unplug RJ11 sensor cable from the controller; all better.
>
>
>
> Paul G. wrote:
> > This message was from the current owner of the 1981 Rabbit Pickup EV
> > that I built. I know the Pickup has a 120 volt pack of Trojan T-125
> > batteries that is about 6 months old and is running a DCP 450 controller
> > (a baby version of the 156 volt DCP 600.)
> >
> > >>>Lately when driving there are isolated times when I have the
> > sensation of driving over a grate. There is a rapid vibration followed
> > by a brief power decrease. There hasn't been any voltage irregularities
> > that I can see until this morning.... I was having that vibration and a
> > decrease in power that made me think I might not make it to work. Then
> > I checked the voltage and it was dropping down into the high 80's and
> > 90's. When I took my foot off the accelator the voltage jumped back
> > up. I pulled off the raod and sat for a minute and when I got back on
> > the road I didn't have any more problems. Can you enlighten me?<<<
> >
> > If anyone on this list (that I know is full of DCP users :-) has any
> > insight please let me know either on or off list. I will forward the
> > information to the current owner who is not on the list. I have again
> > reminded her to drive more by the volt meter and less by the SOC
> > function of the e-meter, especially in cooler weather. The batteries
> > should be staying pretty balanced - its a Lester charger.
> >
> > Paul "neon" G.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Hopefully there is a place in Hell for engineers that design
things [unserviceable]
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
You don't get it Lee - they were *told to* integrate the heater
the most complicated way so service can charge you for the most
labor hours should it brake.
Possibly. But I've worked at several large companies as a design
engineer. Management *never* told us to make things unserviceable. In
fact, they were almost always totally clueless about serviceability.
They generally ignored it completely, or gave only lip service to it.
Sorry Lee, as you said once, email is bad for expressions.
Of course I'm being sarcastic about manufacturing, and no sane
management will request engineers to deliberately design things
which are harder to service than could be.
From what I see too, things are not really serviceable anymore,
but this rather reflects current state of technology and throw away
society economics - with labor so expensive and hardware so cheap,
service consists of swapping and recycling whole blocks rather than
repairing a block.
A $1000 TV may fail to work because 2 cent resistor broke off.
When was last time you heard people brought TV for repair and
just this 2 cent resistor was replaced? They likely replaced
whole PCB (the only PCB in modern TVs) - 5 min job and good profit
for "service". Manufacturer knows it (and don't really care).
So why make these resistors and other components easily repairable?
Young or inexperienced engineers also knew nothing about serviceability
-- so they too ignored it in their designs.
It was usually the older or more experienced engineers that thought
about serviceability. Often, they had "come up through the ranks", and
worked as mechanics or technicians before becoming engineers.
This is because their understanding of things formed during times
when repairing stuff use to make sense and was really being done.
Thus, they
had a good working knowledge of repairing and servicing things. Most of
us (and I am of this group) have had our share of sweating over some
misbegotten design and swore, "I'll NEVER design anything this bad!"
I hear you and can assure you I got my share too. Precisely why I grew to
respect many unnamed engineers who thinks about service
before releasing designs.
But if I'd work in such OEM and design something
to be easily taken off for repair (a bolt with nut requiring
extra operation during production to mount instead of just
spot weld), I'd get lectured by management for wasting money
- the value of consumer car is not higher because of better
serviceability. Average consumer does not service them anyway,
spot welds everywhere or bolts and nuts.
Now, EVs are done by individuals and so we put great deal of
a value for something that can be easily taken apart, inspected,
understood and repaired. Only because there is no one to service
our creations. If powerful motors and controllers will be sold
in a garden department of every wal-mart with other spare parts
for tractors and lawnmowers, who would care about serviceability
of them *that* much? Only tinkerers willing to commit much time
to repair something (and learn, but this is different story) that
can be bought by others for little money and bolted in.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:14 AM -0700 on 5/3/05, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Sorry, I have no idea what Occam's razor iz.
Occam's Razor is an over-used and little understood axiom of logical
thought popularized by the English Franciscan friar William of Ockham
in about 1330. It is usually accepted to be "The simplest answer is
usually correct."
Amusingly enough, this is not what William wrote or even really
meant, nor did it originate with him. What he wrote was "Never assume
more variables than necessary. (Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine
necessitate)" and was known as the rule of parsimony in his lifetime.
It wasn't a comment on complexity per se, but on the limitations of
logical guesswork.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI, Abat is 2 people company - Chairman and his secretary.
Manufacturing is done by subcontractor.
Victor
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Nick Austin wrote:
Has anybody here talked to ABAT?
I just found what appears to be their website...
http://www.zqpt.com/zqenglish/index.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jerry,
Are you sure it's $25k? When I was in Monaco a couple weeks ago and it
seamed like EVery one was driving one (well thousands on the road), I
stopped in a Mercedes dealer nearby and they said it was $10k Euros or $13k
US. Probably a couple $k for shipping though. The trick would be to buy
some on the used market over there and get them shipped/approved here and
use for conversions. If I was stationed over there, I could probably buy
one through the local paper from an individual and ship if they're now
approved here for licensing. I think realistically these need to be under
$10k US to sell. I'd love to have one though after being in one.
Have a nice day, Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Smarts in the US
> Hi Victor and All,
> --- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > *If* this is true and indeed happening, we expect a
> > great donors:
> >
> >
> http://www.zapworld.com/about/news/news_smartRegulatoryApproval.asp
>
> You would be right if the Euro exchange rate was
> better so they don't go for over $25k as an ICE as the
> price stands now, or Zap wasn't in on it which makes
> it doubtful from the start!!!
> Now if the exchange rate changes as the economy
> both here and even worse in Europe bites the big one
> this summer and Smart or someone get's it past the
> Fed's, then if they will sell gliders or finished
> EV's, then you may be on to something as they were
> designed to be an EV from the beginning along with as
> a gas or diesel!!!
> But that's a lot of if's ;-o
> HTH's,
> Jerry Dycus
>
>
> >
> > --
> > Victor
> > '91 ACRX - something different
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Understand. How many customers make (or change) their mind on
purchasing decision based on that? Certainly some, but way far
from enough for OEMs to change their poor design practices.
"your choice is to buy our car [with poor serviceability]
or nothing. Take your pick".
Roland Wiench wrote:
My master mechanic, said, before you purchase a vehicle, check the
best maintenance ease and labor hours it takes to replace a items in
a service manual.
It will show on some cars it will take 8 labor hours to change out a
heater core, while others like my 1975 Chevelle it takes less than a
hour!!
Roland
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< >Sorry, I have no idea what Occam's razor iz.
Occam's Razor is an over-used and little understood axiom of logical
thought popularized by the English Franciscan friar William of Ockham
in about 1330. It is usually accepted to be "The simplest answer is
usually correct."
Amusingly enough, this is not what William wrote or even really
meant, nor did it originate with him. What he wrote was "Never assume
more variables than necessary. (Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine
necessitate)" and was known as the rule of parsimony in his lifetime.
It wasn't a comment on complexity per se, but on the limitations of
logical guesswork.
-- >>>
Not to be confused with the Einstein quote "make it as simple as possible but no
simpler".
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sadly 25K sounds about right. The really annoying bit is no one is
quite sure what they will cost. I have been on Zap's mailing list for
Smart cars EVer since they announced it. I have gotten a fair amount of
PR fluff and "We've sold XXXXX of them" pieces of literature, but even
after a total of 10 emails, each one asking "What will it cost". I have
yet to receive an answer.
The first two or three I got a press release back. On the fourth one I
said I didn't want another press release I just wanted to know
*approximately* what one will cost. No answer.
Personally I think ZAP is not the best company to be doing this, and it
is all smoke and mirrors. I bet when everything is said and done, they
will have sold a handful of them for more than they are worth and
declare it a victory for their import side.
James
On Tue, 2005-05-03 at 13:54, Mark Hanson wrote:
> Hi Jerry,
> Are you sure it's $25k? When I was in Monaco a couple weeks ago and it
> seamed like EVery one was driving one (well thousands on the road), I
> stopped in a Mercedes dealer nearby and they said it was $10k Euros or $13k
> US. Probably a couple $k for shipping though. The trick would be to buy
> some on the used market over there and get them shipped/approved here and
> use for conversions. If I was stationed over there, I could probably buy
> one through the local paper from an individual and ship if they're now
> approved here for licensing. I think realistically these need to be under
> $10k US to sell. I'd love to have one though after being in one.
> Have a nice day, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone knows of a Raptor 1200 please let me know. Miramar High School
down in Florida is looking for one for their Porsche 944. This is a cool
ride. Saw it at the EV Challenge. It has two XP 1227s.
See ya
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
NEDRA Power of DC June 11, 2005
http://www.powerofdc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used a piece of epoxy/fiberglass circuit board material. My local surplus
place had some large pieces of the stuff. I put a sample in a 500F kitchen
oven for an hour and it wasn't affected at all.
Here is a picture of the core in the frame.
http://nick.homelinux.net/phil_echo_b_u/Core_Baffle3.JPG
The whole thing slides into the heater in place of the original core. The
brass spring clips on the left keep it snug against the heater opening, and
a couple of screws keep it in place. The frame is made of aluminum angle,
but the circuit board material keeps everything electrically isolated.
I also made a cover for the top of the core opening out of the same circuit
board stuff. It's easy to work with - cuts easily with a hacksaw and easy
to trim with a file.
Phil
Electric Echo in progress
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: Water heater (Re: electric heater core questions)
> Given that I will be using an electric resistive heater, any comments
> on using 9mm thick sheets of acrylic to construct a frame? The heater
> supposedly self limits at 180 degrees.
>
I don't think that using plexi or acrylic in a situation near heat is safe
at all. And more importantly, if I understand you correctly, as a patch in
a firewall....
_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee�
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Apr 2005 at 16:25, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'd like to receive the list in digest mode, but I'd also like to receive an
> acknowledgement/copy when I post to the list.
No can do.
The list processor doesn't contain functions that generate a separate email
for you as an acknowledgement. As mail arrives, it compiles each one into
the digest and also mails it out to everyone whose settings indicate he
wants individual mails. When a digest is full, it's sent out to those who
have indicated they want digests. Very simple.
Its default behaviour is to assume that since you've read your own post as
you wrote it, you have no need to receive a copy of it. Thus by default it
suppresses your own posts' transmission to you. This effects a tiny
improvement in bandwidth. If you request ACK, the listproc just flips off
the default flag saying "don't send this person a copy of his own posts."
If you request digests, the listproc flips another flag that turns on digest
transmission for you, and turns off ^all^ individual emails, including
copies of your own.
Thus it makes sense that you can't receive an ack message if you are on
digests; so by the listproc's definition ACK and DIGEST are contradictory
requests. Of course it's up to the programmer who wrote the processor to
decide what to do when contradictory requests arrive, so I guess this is a
feature rather than a bug. <g>
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2 May 2005 at 19:43, Thomas J webster wrote:
> P.S. I tried to join the elec-trak email list I kept getting a 404 error when
> I tryed to email or register?
It sounds like you tried to subscribe to the Yahoo archive. That is not the
real list - the actual ET list is a mailing list like this one. You can
join it by sending an email with the subject "subscribe" (and a blank body)
to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Be warned that the ET list is publicly archived and your email address is
NOT obscured, so if you post material to the list you WILL receive spam on
the account from which you posted. (I guarantee it.) I suggest subscribing
with two email accounts, one with which you post but which you never read;
and another with which you read but never post (this could be your regular
account). Or you could use a "disposable" email address such as a Yahoo
account.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, May 03, 2005 at 10:53:33AM -0700, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> FYI, Abat is 2 people company - Chairman and his secretary.
> Manufacturing is done by subcontractor.
Do you know who?
It is TS? :)
>
> Victor
>
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
> >Nick Austin wrote:
> >
> >>Has anybody here talked to ABAT?
> >
> >
> >I just found what appears to be their website...
> >
> >http://www.zqpt.com/zqenglish/index.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought Miramar had Raptors from way back.
Also I would highly recomend that they Go for a Zilla 2K with twin Xp
motors.
XPs had a voltage issue with brush arcing, The fine motor voltage limits
that a Zilla has would negate the hazzard. A Raptor won't.... and in Big
way.
Rich Rudman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ev" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: Raptor 1200 for Miramar high school
> If anyone knows of a Raptor 1200 please let me know. Miramar High School
> down in Florida is looking for one for their Porsche 944. This is a cool
> ride. Saw it at the EV Challenge. It has two XP 1227s.
>
> See ya
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA Webmaster
> http://www.nedra.com
>
> NEDRA Power of DC June 11, 2005
> http://www.powerofdc.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
>
> > http://www.trojan-battery.com/Products/NewProducts.aspx
> >
> But no info on them, the links all have a runtime error on them...
>
The links on the right of the page appear to be working now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim,
On the right side of the tractor there is a power disconect switch. To charge
the tractor I rotate the lever down disconecting the power so the tractor won't
move. Then I plug in the charger and set it for 1-2 years. Is this how it
works? If I rotate the lever up the charger seams to hum more? I don't
understand the language (speach) of manuals I have. Thank you -Tom
On Mon, 02 May 2005 22:52:23 -0400
Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Are you using the stock charger that is built into the tractor?
>
> If so, the main disconnect needs to be on in order to charge, and it is
> not super smart; the user needs to set the timer to a duration roughly
> appropriate for the age and use of the batteries. At the *end* of the
> charging cycle, shortly before the timer shuts off, is when you should
> see the bubbling occur.
>
>
> Thomas J webster wrote:
> > this leads me to my next problem. I shut off the power disconect
> > and I plug in the charger it hums and no boiling batteries. I was
> > told this is a "smart" charger and it will automaticly shut off
> > when the pack is full.
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Sorry Lee, as you said once, email is bad for expressions.
> Of course I'm being sarcastic about manufacturing, and no sane
> management will request engineers to deliberately design things
> which are harder to service than could be.
Ok, understood. What's the "emoticon" for sarcasm? :-)
> From what I see too, things are not really serviceable anymore,
> but this rather reflects current state of technology and throw away
> society economics - with labor so expensive and hardware so cheap,
> service consists of swapping and recycling whole blocks rather than
> repairing a block.
True enough when you are dealing with cheap, mass-produced items. It
might make economic sense to design a car's heater core to be hard to
replace, because the odds are it will never have to be done.
But (for example) an EV controller or charger is not in this category.
These are expensive, very limited production items, so they must meet a
much higher standard for serviceability. I consider it an engineering
failure to design such a product so it is hard to troubleshoot and
repair.
> I hear you and can assure you I got my share too. Precisely why I
> grew to respect many unnamed engineers who thinks about service
> before releasing designs.
>
> But if I'd work in such OEM and design something to be easily taken
> off for repair (a bolt with nut requiring extra operation during
> production to mount instead of just spot weld), I'd get lectured
> by management for wasting money
Engineering is a professional discipline, with its own standards, rules
and ethics, independent of the whims of management. Engineers are not
footsoldiers that just mindlessly "do as ordered" and assume some
authority figure in management will take the blame if something goes
wrong.
Good engineers know that THEY will get the blame if something goes
wrong! Not some pointy-haired boss in management! Do it right, even if
it means arguing with your boss. The nice thing about engineering is
that so much of it is deterministic. When you're right, you can PROVE
that you're right!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Occam's Razor is an over-used and little understood axiom of
>> logical thought... What he wrote was "Never assume more variables
>> than necessary.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Not to be confused with the Einstein quote "make it as simple as
> possible but no simpler".
Actually, the two are quite similar. In both cases, they are reminding
us not to make a problem overly complex to no purpose.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Chinese Polymer Li-Ion Batteries for ZAP)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20050428005148&newsLang=en
April 28, 2005 09:20 AM US Eastern Timezone
ZAP Signs Cooperation Agreement with Advanced Battery
Technologies, Inc.; China-Based Developer and Manufacturer to
Provide Rechargeable Polymer Lithium-Ion Batteries for ZAP's Line
of Electric Vehicles
SANTA ROSA, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--April 28, 2005--ZAP,
pioneering the next generation of advanced
transportation and energy technologies, announced today that the
Company has signed an Agreement of Intent with Advanced Battery
Technologies, Inc. to develop, manufacture and
distribute electric vehicles using ABAT's Polymer Lithium-Ion
(PLI) batteries. ABAT develops and manufactures its PLI batteries
in its factory in Harbin, People's Republic of China.
Under the first phase of the agreement with ZAP, ABAT will
retrofit a range of ZAP electric vehicles with their
next-generation Lithium Polymer batteries and chargers. Initial
testing shows that ZAP's three and four-wheel vehicles equipped
with ABAT's battery would be able to increase the run time by
three times or more over Lead-Acid batteries. The threefold
increase in energy density of the PLI batteries could enable a
similar threefold increase in transportation range for
comparable-weight batteries, enabling ZAP's vehicles to achieve a
significantly increased driving range between electric
recharges.
ABAT's batteries combine high-energy chemistry with
state-of-the-art polymer technology, overcoming many of the
shortcomings associated with other types of rechargeable
batteries. ZAP will take advantage of the high-performance
features of the ABAT battery technology to further enhance the
competitive advantages of their electric vehicles in the
worldwide advanced transportation marketplace.
"We look forward to the weight reduction and range extension we
expect from the ABAT battery technology," said ZAP CEO Steve
Schneider. "Our research has indicated that another vehicle
company in Japan has already found success with their technology.
On our recent trip tip to China we road-tested several of their
vehicles, ranging from scooters to a complete Lithium powered
electric bus. We are continuing to expand our electric
transportation product line at all levels, from personal to
public transportation. We are also exploring the possibility of
making an electric version of the Smart Car."
"The first shipment of ZAP vehicles has already arrived, and our
engineering team is working to install and range-test the
vehicles provided," said Zhiguo Fu, Chairman of ABAT. "We're very
pleased to have ZAP as our strategic partner and we believe that
our new relationship will accelerate the introduction of our
advanced lithium polymer batteries into the U.S. electric vehicle
market."
[...]
Cautionary Statement Forward-looking statements in this release
[...] ZAP Alex Campbell, 707-525-8658 Ext. 241 (Media Relations)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or Trilogy Capital Partners, Inc. Paul
Karon, 800-342-1467 (Investor Relations)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or Advanced Battery Technologies, Inc.
Ming Liu, 718-359-6866 [EMAIL PROTECTED] or Investor Relations:
Randolph & Wang, Inc. M. Bradford Randolph, 212-759-0097
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- End Message ---
