EV Digest 4336
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: WTB: shunt
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EVLN(Humboldt Electric Vehicle Association displays at
HSU)
by "Carl Fiorica" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Raptor 1200 for Miramar high school
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: WTB: shunt
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Hawker Military Auction
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: WTB: shunt
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: shunt (REAL CHEAP)
by "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Non-isolated charger stuff
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Raptor 1200 for Miramar high school
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: WTB: shunt
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Raptor 1200 for Miramar high school
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: WTB: shunt
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Flexible instrumentation
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hawker Military Auction
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: WTB: shunt
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Non-isolated charger stuff
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Non-isolated charger stuff
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Flexible instrumentation
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: clutchless shifting
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Flexible instrumentation
by Matt Holthausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Lithium chopper?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Lithium chopper?
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: ABAT Lithium-Ion Polymer Batteries in EVs
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
12" of #10 solid copper wire ~0.001 ohm
1 milivolt per amp!
Simple. Cheap. 10% accurate.
BoyntonStu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Maki, Garret
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 10:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: WTB: shunt
Check out
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?query=&type=store&categor
y=385&orderby=INVENTORY%2Estore%5Fquantity%2CORGANIZATION%2Ecategory%2CINVEN
TORY%2Ebrand%2CINVENTORY%2Emodel&start=16&limitcategory=&template=&searchfie
lds=&match=&searchtype=
200A shunt $16
200A meter $12
-Garret
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 8:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WTB: shunt
At 11:18 PM 3/05/05 -0400, Martin K wrote:
>I'm looking for a shunt in the 250 amp range, slightly more or less
>would be fine I assume. I posted this here because I'm looking for a
>used [read: cheaper] one. I'm broke.
Hi Martin
How many millivolts at 250A?
A shunt generates usually 50mV or 75mV for it's full scale continuous
current handling. What is your application?
I'd assume that you have a digital instrument that is scaleable? Or are you
just treating a meter as 100% is 250A (etc).
A shunt is just a low value resistor, if you have means of calibrating, and
don't want extreme accuracy, there is the option of making your own. 75mV
at 250A is 0.0003 ohms.
I've mislaid my printout of wire resistance for size for length, but for
example you may find that a certain size of wire gives 75mV across (say) 18
inches. You could make up a cable that is (say) 24 inches long, with a
tap-in point 3 inches in from each end. You can't put the sense wires into
the power crimps, you will get unpredictable errors. Now comes the hard
part - you have to put a known current through it, and see what your meter
(or whatever) reads, then calibrate accordingly.
I have only done this for a 50A circuit in a mobile home 'house' system. It
worked sufficiently well for their application.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If people are unaware, Humboldt State Univ. is a very "green" school,
(in more ways than most would imagine) and there has been ongoing
research into hydrogen fuel-cell research at HSU. Dr. Peter Lehman
there has been developing Hydrogen PEM fuel cells there for 10+ years
and even built a car that has been around for quite some time. When I
went there (graduated 1999, Engineering) he was working on developing
better storage methods for the hydrogen and reducing the cost to produce
a fuel cell. He had some very good leads and was building some strong
sponsorship. I am not sure where his research stands anymore, but I
encourage people to check out his research in fuel cell development
including his self-sustaining Marine Biology Lab powered by fuel cells.
Last I knew, he was also working on developing an entire fuel cell
golf-cart fleet for a golf course in the city of Palm Desert that would
provide hydrogen through the hydrolosis of water using PVs as the power
source. I have been in San Diego the last 6 years and have not kept up
with Dr. Lehmans doings, but they do have lots of material available
through the HSU website.
Carl Fiorica, P.E.
RBF Consulting
Design Engineer
(858) 614-5057
Disclaimer
The files attached to this email are file(s) that are described above.
This data is preliminary and subject to change; please use at your own
discretion. RBF disclaims any responsibility from the subsequent use of
this data.
>>> bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 5/3/2005 4:37:41 PM >>>
EVLN(Humboldt Electric Vehicle Association displays at HSU)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.eurekareporter.com/Stories/cm-04240502.htm
4/24/2005 HSU's Sustainable Living Arts and Music Festival turns 10
this year
by Nathan Rushton The Eureka Reporter
Kevin Johnson of the Humboldt Electric Vehicle Association
displays at HSUs 10th annual Sustainable Arts and Music Festival
Saturday his electric-powered Volkswagen Rabbit, which can travel
up to 50 miles between charges.
Trying to spread the message that people can live sustainably
while having fun doing it was the theme for Humboldt State
Universitys 10th annual Sustainable Living Arts and Music
Festival yesterday.
The event, held on the campuss special events field, was
organized and staffed by volunteers and completely powered by
renewable energy that it generates from solar panels.
This years musical guests included the HSU calypso band, the
Colorado-based bluegrass music of Victor Barnes and Garaj Mahal.
Speakers from the Wiyot Table Bluff Reservation and the Green
Party also gave presentations.
One of the staff volunteers providing security for the event was
Robin Pagliuco, an HSU graduate and former organizer and manager
of the event in 2001 and 2003.
Pagliuco said the festival has evolved from a vendor-heavy
event that featured food, crafts and artists, to having a greater
emphasis on information.
She said about 90 percent of the people who set up booths
featured information about renewable energy resources and
composting.
Renewable-energy demonstrations included hydrogen-fuel cell,
electric and biodiesel vehicles and papermaking, as well as a
juggling workshop for children.
Among the informational demonstrations at the festival was
Humboldt Electric Vehicle Association, which had five electric
vehicles displayed that were converted from gas-operated motors.
HEVA member Kevin Johnsons electric-powered 1984 Volkswagen
Rabbit was among those displayed with the other electric cars
and small trucks.
He said his vehicle can cruise along at 60 mph on the highway
and can travel about up to 50 miles between charges.
With gas prices climbing locally to $3 a gallon, he said it
costs about 15-25 cents per mile to operate a gas-powered car.
The electric vehicles operating costs are 2.5-6 cents per
mile to operate.
Statistics show that most people drive between 20 and 25
miles per day, Johnson said. So these are perfect for an
around-town commuter car.
Johnson generates the power for his home from solar panels, which
he also uses to recharge his car.
He said recharging the cars battery on a standard 110 outlet is
done overnight, but with a 220-voltage outlet, it takes only a
few hours.
The typical costs to convert a car from a gas to an electric
motor are between $4,000-$7,000, Johnson said.
He said he estimated that after seven years his electric car and
homes solar panels will have paid for themselves.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"
I thought Miramar had Raptors from way back.
I got to see the car at the Fort Pierce ev rally , and it was a newer one
than the Probe , which I saw at the Port st lucie ev rally years ago .
Lowell is doing alot to permote EV's , . He had the motors coupled together
with two chain gears and some dubble wide chain , , I'm thinking about doing
this in the two motor porsche now , as the lov joy coupler didn't make it
around the block . I got pictures and they'll be up on the web sit soon ,
>> Also I would highly recomend that they Go for a Zilla 2K with twin Xp
motors.
XPs had a voltage issue with brush arcing, The fine motor voltage limits
that a Zilla has would negate the hazzard.
and what voltage would you set it to , ? what about running the motors in
parallel only , I didn't ask how they where set up but now that I'm thinking
about it I didn't see any bank of contactors ..//
Steve Clunn
Rich Rudman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ev" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: Raptor 1200 for Miramar high school
> If anyone knows of a Raptor 1200 please let me know. Miramar High
> School
> down in Florida is looking for one for their Porsche 944. This is a
> cool
> ride. Saw it at the EV Challenge. It has two XP 1227s.
>
> See ya
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA Webmaster
> http://www.nedra.com
>
> NEDRA Power of DC June 11, 2005
> http://www.powerofdc.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu or Jan"
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 8:04 AM
Subject: RE: WTB: shunt
> 12" of #10 solid copper wire ~0.001 ohm
>
> 1 milivolt per amp!
>
> Simple. Cheap. 10% accurate.
So if I take the 12" of #10, put a 12V battery charge thru it, powering a fan,
lets say, and then take my Volt meter and put the leads to the ends of the 12",
I will get x millivolts or x amps passing thru?
And if cut the 12" into quarters, 4 - 3" lengths, and sandwich them together
and pass the same current thru them I will read the same x millivolts or x amps
on my meter?
And on a 600 amp shunt, 50 mV=600 amps, means that (600/50=12) for every 12 mV
increment I will have 1 amp passing thru? or each 1.2 V is 100 amps?
Rush
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Other than this notice being completely too late for anyone to actually bid...
At 07:38 AM 5/4/2005, you wrote:
http://www.drms.dla.mil/catalog/pdf/33-5012.pdf
Here you go all you Wa state EVers...
Hawkers up for auction
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WTB: shunt
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:46:35 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu or Jan"
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 8:04 AM
Subject: RE: WTB: shunt
> 12" of #10 solid copper wire ~0.001 ohm
>
> 1 milivolt per amp!
>
> Simple. Cheap. 10% accurate.
So if I take the 12" of #10, put a 12V battery charge thru it, powering a
fan, lets say, and then take my Volt meter and put the leads to the ends of
the 12", I will get x millivolts or x amps passing thru?
Yes, that's right.
And if cut the 12" into quarters, 4 - 3" lengths, and sandwich them
together and pass the same current thru them I will read the same x
millivolts or x amps on my meter?
Do you mean 4 3" lengths in parallel? If so, the answer is no - you've
reduced the resistance by a factor of 16. ( Each 3" piece has 1/4 the
resistance of the original 12" piece, and putting four of them in parallel
reduces it by 4 times again.) So, now, 1 mv across the shunt would
correspond to 16 amps through it.
And on a 600 amp shunt, 50 mV=600 amps, means that (600/50=12) for every 12
mV increment I will have 1 amp passing thru? or each 1.2 V is 100 amps?
No - for every 1 mv across it, you will have 12 amps going through it.
Phil
Also, remember, if you make your own shunt, cut the heavy wire a couple of
inches longer than the active length ( 12" in this example) and solder your
meter leads ( these can be small wires) independently to the shunt wire 12
inches apart, and away from the terminations. This is so that only the
meter current flows through these leads, and the termination resistance at
the ends of the shunt doesn't affect your meter readings.
Rush
_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Martin,
Here's how to make a fairly accurate ~ 10% shunt.
Take a 14" piece of #10 solid copper wire. <50 cents
Solder lead #1 3" from the left, and #2 lead 3" from the right lie this.
Current in>-------------->current out
: :
#1 #2 measure volts between 1 and 2
That's it! A #10 solid copper wire has a resistance of almost exactly .001
ohm per foot.
1 millivolt = 1 amp
A way to calibrate: place your shunt in series with an ammeter.
Slide #2 contact until your 2 meters read the same.
You may parallel to increase current capacity and to keep the heat down.
BoyntonStu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Martin K
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: WTB: shunt
I'm looking for a shunt in the 250 amp range, slightly more or less
would be fine I assume. I posted this here because I'm looking for a
used [read: cheaper] one. I'm broke.
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <>
I understand that this *can* happen. I'd like to know if anyone *has*
toasted anything due to these line transients?
I believe I tested a iota dc to dc converter rated at 130v ac which I had
run for a year on 150 dc , the pack was almost charged when my friends
extension cord end melted off , ( . maybe at the end when it was melting
and shorting , PFC did fine.
steve
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: Raptor 1200 for Miramar high school
Hey Rich,
I'll have to relay your brush arcing info to Lowell.
He mentioned he would prefer to go with a Zilla but wanted a used Raptor
untill they could raise some funds to get a Zilla.
Chip
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: Raptor 1200 for Miramar high school
I thought Miramar had Raptors from way back.
Also I would highly recomend that they Go for a Zilla 2K with twin Xp
motors.
XPs had a voltage issue with brush arcing, The fine motor voltage limits
that a Zilla has would negate the hazzard. A Raptor won't.... and in Big
way.
Rich Rudman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ev" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: Raptor 1200 for Miramar high school
> If anyone knows of a Raptor 1200 please let me know. Miramar High
> School
> down in Florida is looking for one for their Porsche 944. This is a
> cool
> ride. Saw it at the EV Challenge. It has two XP 1227s.
>
> See ya
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA Webmaster
> http://www.nedra.com
>
> NEDRA Power of DC June 11, 2005
> http://www.powerofdc.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philip,
>>And if cut the 12" into quarters, 4 - 3" lengths, and sandwich them
>>together and pass the same current thru them I will read the same x
>>millivolts or x amps on my meter?
>
> Do you mean 4 3" lengths in parallel? If so, the answer is no - you've
> reduced the resistance by a factor of 16. ( Each 3" piece has 1/4 the
> resistance of the original 12" piece, and putting four of them in parallel
> reduces it by 4 times again.) So, now, 1 mv across the shunt would
> correspond to 16 amps through it.
I was trying to copy the actual physical 'look' of a shunt, where there are 4
strips of copper(?) between two attachment blocks with a take off for a small
wire connection.
>>And on a 600 amp shunt, 50 mV=600 amps, means that (600/50=12) for every 12
>>mV increment I will have 1 amp passing thru? or each 1.2 V is 100 amps?
> No - for every 1 mv across it, you will have 12 amps going through it.
Got it... that means that I can take a normal dc volt meter and put in my own
scale so that it reads the correct amperage?
> Also, remember, if you make your own shunt, cut the heavy wire a couple of
> inches longer than the active length ( 12" in this example) and solder your
> meter leads ( these can be small wires) independently to the shunt wire 12
> inches apart, and away from the terminations. This is so that only the
> meter current flows through these leads, and the termination resistance at
> the ends of the shunt doesn't affect your meter readings.
and the shunt wire can obviously be of a larger diameter, like a .250 dia rod,
just need to calculate the circular resistance and multiply it by the length,
right?
Thanks
Rush
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would arrainge for the motors to never see more than 170 volts, and never
more than about 800 amps.
The XP-1227s are torque monsters and they have a very high eff point, but it
is very narrow.
They basicly can't be run backwards, without lots of negative timing.
They are a very nice motor, but they don't take racing abuse as well as the
stock 8 inchers do.
If you are carfull, they are one of the best EV motors made, But they have
limits that can be exceded easily with a Raptor.
I ate my XP-1263 with the prototype Raptor 1200. Damon and I were drag
racing Kenworths on I-5. 30 seconds of 1000 amps will short com bars.
The 1227 and the 1263 share the same commutator, and that is the limiter.
Raptors are VERY tough controllers, but they have limits also. With two
motors on one controller and Students driving, you are asking for abuse to
happen.
Once the 1227 start to flash the com it gets worse fast. This is where the
Raptor gets into trouble.
I think a single XP motor and a Raptor are a very nice combination. But a
Stock 8 and a Raptor are a record setting setup. That's why I still have
them in Goldie.
I have no intention of selling my Raptor, ever. Even if the Zilla takes over
the Zorch control on Goldie. The only controller that beats a Raptor 1200
for sheer Brute power is a $5000 Zilla 2K.
For around $2000 they were a pretty darn good deal. We basicly invented the
affordable 1200 amp controller market.
I was there, I made it happen.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: Raptor 1200 for Miramar high school
>
> "
>
> >
> >> I thought Miramar had Raptors from way back.
> >>
>
> I got to see the car at the Fort Pierce ev rally , and it was a newer one
> than the Probe , which I saw at the Port st lucie ev rally years ago .
> Lowell is doing alot to permote EV's , . He had the motors coupled
together
> with two chain gears and some dubble wide chain , , I'm thinking about
doing
> this in the two motor porsche now , as the lov joy coupler didn't make it
> around the block . I got pictures and they'll be up on the web sit soon ,
>
>
>
> >> Also I would highly recomend that they Go for a Zilla 2K with twin Xp
> >> motors.
> >> XPs had a voltage issue with brush arcing, The fine motor voltage
limits
> >> that a Zilla has would negate the hazzard.
>
> and what voltage would you set it to , ? what about running the motors in
> parallel only , I didn't ask how they where set up but now that I'm
thinking
> about it I didn't see any bank of contactors ..//
>
>
> Steve Clunn
>
>
>
>
> >>
> >> Rich Rudman
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: "Ev" <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:57 AM
> >> Subject: Raptor 1200 for Miramar high school
> >>
> >>
> >> > If anyone knows of a Raptor 1200 please let me know. Miramar High
> >> > School
> >> > down in Florida is looking for one for their Porsche 944. This is a
> >> > cool
> >> > ride. Saw it at the EV Challenge. It has two XP 1227s.
> >> >
> >> > See ya
> >> >
> >> > Chip Gribben
> >> > NEDRA Webmaster
> >> > http://www.nedra.com
> >> >
> >> > NEDRA Power of DC June 11, 2005
> >> > http://www.powerofdc.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Remember that there are two issues when designing a shunt: resistance
AND ampacity.
A foot of #10 wire is fine for a 30A or 50A shunt, but try putting 600A
through it, and it will likely incandesce! :-)
cheers,
Andrew
And on a 600 amp shunt, 50 mV=600 amps, means that (600/50=12) for every 12
mV increment I will have 1 amp passing thru? or each 1.2 V is 100 amps?
No - for every 1 mv across it, you will have 12 amps going through it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
I took a vacation last month and returned to find myself way behind on *two*
lists, since Jerry started his EVProduction group too. (Lots of good ideas
there.) I'm just now catching up.
One of the discussions on the EVProduction list got me thinking. Pete
Ohler's EV Dash program to turn a Palm into a Link 10 display has a small
but very enthusiastic following. There is now another device in general use
that supplies data. Can the EV Dash concept be expanded?
Could you take a palmtop PC running Windows CE and read both your Link 10
and Zilla controller simultaneously? You can find palmtop PCs with color
display for around $100, which is about the same as a standard 2" voltmeter
and ammeter from EVParts. The palmtop could be much more useful though.
Example: If you are running a fixed drive ratio or you can read what gear
you're in and know your trans ratios, the tach sensor from the Zilla gives
you road speed. (Or you can just put a sender on an axle.) Take the
instantaneous battery V * A from the Link 10 and divide by road speed in
mph, and you get instantaneous Whr/mi - the EV equivalent of the mpg gauge.
You could also change the scales of your readings to suit conditions. My
120 V EV might show a voltage range of 105 V - 130 V for normal driving
(with the whole readout flashing red and beeper beeping if I dip below 105
V), and then change scale to 110 V - 160 V for charging.
The Zilla has plenty of other useful info that could be displayed: motor
current and voltage, traction pack voltage, auxiliary battery voltage, heat
sink temp, contactor state, forward/reverse, series/parallel and (I think)
valet mode on/off.
The display format could be anything you want. Most palmtop displays are
big enough for two dial faces, but that might take a lot of code to
implement. Bar graphs can be just intuitive and easy to read at a glance,
especially when you consider you can add colors, sounds, animation, whatever
to get the information across. Add more inputs and more possibilities
develop.
For me the real attraction of this, beyond the functionality, is that it
should be fairly obsolescence-proof. I worked with aircraft displays for a
while. Flat panel displays allowed unheard of flexibility, but they
literally went obsolete so fast we had to redesign our instruments *before*
they got to production. Twice. Using a $100 palmtop and code that
presumably migrates as the OS advances should eliminate that problem. And
of course whoever decides to do this will make all the code open-source, so
we all get to play with it. :-)
Any takers?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My apologies...
I saw the bid opening date of May 4, 2005 and then below it says
"The bid acceptance period must be at least 10 days from the bid opening" and
didn't read the rest.
Sorry all
Rush
> Other than this notice being completely too late for anyone to actually bid...
>
> At 07:38 AM 5/4/2005, you wrote:
>
>>http://www.drms.dla.mil/catalog/pdf/33-5012.pdf
>>
>>Here you go all you Wa state EVers...
>>
>>Hawkers up for auction
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WTB: shunt
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:42:45 -0700
Philip,
>>And if cut the 12" into quarters, 4 - 3" lengths, and sandwich them
>>together and pass the same current thru them I will read the same x
>>millivolts or x amps on my meter?
>
> Do you mean 4 3" lengths in parallel? If so, the answer is no -
you've
> reduced the resistance by a factor of 16. ( Each 3" piece has 1/4 the
> resistance of the original 12" piece, and putting four of them in
parallel
> reduces it by 4 times again.) So, now, 1 mv across the shunt would
> correspond to 16 amps through it.
I was trying to copy the actual physical 'look' of a shunt, where there are
4 strips of copper(?) between two attachment blocks with a take off for a
small wire connection.
>>And on a 600 amp shunt, 50 mV=600 amps, means that (600/50=12) for every
12
>>mV increment I will have 1 amp passing thru? or each 1.2 V is 100 amps?
> No - for every 1 mv across it, you will have 12 amps going through it.
Got it... that means that I can take a normal dc volt meter and put in my
own scale so that it reads the correct amperage?
> Also, remember, if you make your own shunt, cut the heavy wire a couple
of
> inches longer than the active length ( 12" in this example) and solder
your
> meter leads ( these can be small wires) independently to the shunt wire
12
> inches apart, and away from the terminations. This is so that only the
> meter current flows through these leads, and the termination resistance
at
> the ends of the shunt doesn't affect your meter readings.
and the shunt wire can obviously be of a larger diameter, like a .250 dia
rod, just need to calculate the circular resistance and multiply it by the
length, right?
Yes - but one of the reasons commercial shunts use blades ( and several of
them) is to keep them cool. They also use special alloys that don't change
resistance much with temperature ( like copper will) and won't give you
reading errors when the shunt heats up.
Depending on your budget for this, you might be better off looking for a
used commercially made shunt on Ebay, especially if your motor current is
going through it. If it were just for a heater, for example ( 20 amps max)
, it would make more sense to make your own.
There's nothing really cheap at the moment. There is a 600 amp 50mv shunt
on "Buy it Now" for $18 including shipping, (Item 5973458760) but you could
probably get one cheaper than that if you keep looking there (check once
every few days).
I got one on Ebay ( 500 amp, 50 mv) for about $12 ( including shipping) a
few months ago. That's a typical Ebay selling price.
Phil
Thanks
Rush
,
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I need to thank Lee for the paranoia on this one.
I know Lee is right, But..... I have not had a charger get popped with 6000
volt transients, SheesH!! Lee That would jump inches of clear air.
I don't have stuff dieing right and left from 1000 volt spikes, I have a 400
volt Cap on the 15 volt power supply. it's the weak link when it comes to
over voltages.
I loose one or two are year in a field of 200 installed chargers.
So...those power line spikes are not nearly as prevalent as some believe.
And With the ripple filter caps and output filter caps that are meant to
absorb the 50 Khz switching transients, the power stage itself make. I am
pretty sure that a spike would get flattened out in the
transition from input power to output power.
Controller??? sees charging currents,and line spikes??? not very likely when
most of us have the controller isolated from the pack while it's being
charged. And the pack looks like a few Farads of capacitor when it is
connected to the charger. Read the battery eats what ever spikes do get
trough ,and just turns them into honest charge power.
The Dc/DC is also connected to this large Cap/battery bank, and well... not
much harm happens.
So... Lee's right, but is doesn't seam to eat chargers and controller and
DC/DC converters very often. And hey if the lighting does strike, there's
not much we can do it it's that close anyways.
Or.... my equipment is eating these transients and I don't even know about
it. I find this very hard to believe.
And I have a Iso charger line coming soon. In fact it made full power
numbers last night from 120vac. And it did it with %85 apparent power
conversion efficiency. This was 130 VAC in and 36 volts out at 50 amps. So
for those that need Iso, I have solutions coming.
I won't be adding Iso to my street EV, No need. I will be adding liquid
cooling, and another 10 amps of charge current. For 10Kw on board charging
that fits inside a PFC30 case. Small size Big charger power levels !
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:53 PM
Subject: Non-isolated charger stuff
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Lee wrote this:
>
> >One more thing; a non-isolated charger passes all AC line transient
> >right through to everything connected to their output -- that means all
> >the wiring in your EV, including the controller. 1000-volt transients
> >are common on the AC line, and can reach 6000 volts during
> >thunderstorms. Your controller isn't built to survive such events. So, I
> >would include a switch or contactors to disconnect BOTH positive and
> >negative wires between the battery pack and controller during charging.
> >
>
> I understand that this *can* happen. I'd like to know if anyone *has*
> toasted anything due to these line transients?
>
> -Ryan
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 12:54 AM
Subject: Re: Non-isolated charger stuff
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Yes, We have broken a charger or two developing application notes.
> >
> > One you may want to read is at
> > http://www.manzanitamicro.com/Appnote1R3.doc
> > dealing with generator startup transients.
> >
> > Another image is at
> >
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/Craftsman%20genset%20voltage%20waveform.gif.
> >
> > Both of these have been on the website since July 2002. They show the
two
> > ways we have blown up PFC chargers. Be aware that both cases caused
> > only the
> > COTS logic power supply to fail. The power stage in both cases survived.
> >
> > Rich informed me that he recently damaged a PFC-50 power stage when he
was
> > repeatedly abusing a 10kW genset governor.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
>
> Another example of "We blow things up so you don't have to" - that's what
seems
> to happen to anyone who hangs around Plasma Boy for any length of time.
Should
> Victor avoid John to protect his products' rep, or is that just
superstitious?
>
The Above mentioned 10Kw Genset that ate My PFC50 acouple of times WAS
Plasma boy's genset... So.. John has encouraged me to break a couple of my
own chargers... I don't know what comes over me but... John does seam to
create that urge to "See what she'll take". To be fair.... the charger was
PFC50 # 1, and I was Dyno testing John's 12.5Kw "peak" genset. dragging it
out of 60 Hz Sync, and just showing off how hard I could load it. Well when
you drag it down then un load it... there are some nasty things that happen
to the wave form.... I think the current count is 2 60 Watt Phihong supplies
and 2 input Powerex modules. I up graded the power control PCB last fall,
and it's been solid ever since. Old #1 still need the beefier AVX caps
installed then I will put it back into abuse testing mode.
It lives inside the Monster charger, as unit 3....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
Could you take a palmtop PC running Windows CE and read both your Link 10
and Zilla controller simultaneously? You can find palmtop PCs with color
display for around $100, which is about the same as a standard 2" voltmeter
and ammeter from EVParts. The palmtop could be much more useful though.
The trick is still getting a high contrast/daylight visible display.
The monochrome palm screens are pretty easy to see in daylight, and are
backlit for night. I have yet to find a affordable color screen that is
both daylight visible and backlit. I am desperate for a solution,
anyone have suggestions?
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have tried this, and FWIW I can report that it is EXTREMELY difficult,
and requires lots of practice. I find it's *much* harder in an EV than it
is with a gas engine.
First, unless you have belt-driven accessories it only works well if
you're downshifting, and can use the throttle to speed up the engine. For
upshifting, the motor needs to slow down and if you don't have anything
belted to it, this could take a while. During that time, all you can do is
coast.
Second and most importantly, when you're driving at higher speeds the
road, traffic and wind noise in most cars will quickly mask the faint
sound of the motor. With a gas engine, it's easy to train yourself to
associate a particular speed, gear selection, and the sound and vibrations
of the engine to where you have a "feeling" of what the engine should
sound like before you can slip it into a particular gear. With no audible
feedback from an electric motor, you have to rely on the tach which
requires you to look away from the road (perhaps for a whole second or
two) to shift. And during that time, you have no power. This is especially
dangerous if you screw up and end up with the motor spinning way faster
than you wanted it to, as again you have *no power* until it slows down
enough to get it into a gear. This has happened to me, fortunately on a
highway with a generous shoulder.
Perhaps with practice you could get better and faster with it, but it
still seems really fiddly and potentially dangerous. Far better I think to
make sure your transmission has good synchros, and just assume you'll need
to rebuild it a little more often. Or, as would be my preference, go with
a clutch.
--chris
Lawrence Rhodes said:
> You can shift perfectly from gear to gear without a clutch. You just need
> to syncronize the speed yourself. Always shift at the same speed and
> figure
> out the pressure you need on the throttle. If you do it right the shifter
> will feel like it is being sucked into the next gear and will not make
> clashing noises. You syncros will last much longer. Sports cars were
> raced
> without syncros using a clutch and it was hard not to clash. The drivers
> simply revved the motor to help. Worked then & it will work now.
> Lawrence
> Rhodes....
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure about the contrast ratio of these, but they're supposedly
made for vehicle application. They also have a built in USB touch
panel, which is pretty neat.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&rd=1&item=7970589160&category=38650
I guess it blows your $100 price point, though.
HTH
-Matt Holthausen
On May 4, 2005, at 12:06 PM, Mark Farver wrote:
Chris Tromley wrote:
Could you take a palmtop PC running Windows CE and read both your
Link 10
and Zilla controller simultaneously? You can find palmtop PCs with
color
display for around $100, which is about the same as a standard 2"
voltmeter
and ammeter from EVParts. The palmtop could be much more useful
though.
The trick is still getting a high contrast/daylight visible display.
The monochrome palm screens are pretty easy to see in daylight, and
are backlit for night. I have yet to find a affordable color screen
that is both daylight visible and backlit. I am desperate for a
solution, anyone have suggestions?
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I remember right, it seems OCC was supposed to build it... Now the
link doesn't work:
http://www.whistlerinvestments.com/media.php?mediaID=040831
Neither does http://www.whistlerinvestments.com/ ...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hope to build one on my show first with the famous
Billy Lane....
Gadget
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If I remember right, it seems OCC was supposed to
> build it... Now the
> link doesn't work:
>
>
http://www.whistlerinvestments.com/media.php?mediaID=040831
>
>
> Neither does http://www.whistlerinvestments.com/ ...
>
>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVT controller is 120A max so 4,5C out of 20Ah pack is too much for such
BMS.
Paralleling little cells is actually the way to go because BIG production
(R/C and portative electronics markets) means cheaper cells.
There is no way a 70Ah KOKAM cell being mass producted and sold at $0,5/wh
during next years :^(
though maybe GM is going to make 10 000 KOKAM powered EV1 ;^)
Note:
Electrovaya claim $0.3/wh in production quantities for their super polymer
batterie.
Maybe an EV entousiast group purchase could obtain $0.6/wh it would be
already a deal !!!
Philippe
Lipoly is at EV door,
just a question of time...
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Blackmond" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 6:15 PM
Subject: ABAT Lithium-Ion Polymer Batteries in EVs
> I bought a bunch of batteries from these guys last fall for testing
> purposes. Life has happened, so I haven't done as much testing as I
> wanted to by now.
>
> I purchased some 11.1V 10Ah and some 14.8V 10Ah batteries. To make
> these batteries, they put together five 3.7V cells in parallel to get a
> 3.7V 10Ah module. For the 11.1V battery they put three of these
> modules in series. To get the 14.8V battery, they put 4 of these
> modules in series. These batteries include a BMS that is made from
> standard laptop/cell phone lithium ion control chips and FETs. All of
> this is held together with heat shrink tubing.
>
> The batteries were advertised as being able to handle 10C discharge.
> Using a carbon pile tester I was able to get 4.5C discharges. Greater
> than that and the BMS shut down. The BMS also shuts down at about 100%
> DOD when drawing at 4C. The batteries do not get warm, but the parts
> on the BMS do get warm.
>
> I put together a 59.2V 20Ah pack and put it into my EVT 168. The BMS
> on each battery burned out after about half a mile, but I could tell
> losing over 100 pounds made a huge difference in how the scooter
> handled. All the individual cells seem to be fine and I was planning
> on designing my own BMS for a larger pack anyway.
>
> I have one battery with about 100 cycles on it, but I have not had a
> chance to build a serious cycler yet. They claim 600 cycles to 80%
> DOD. If I can prove that they meet that, then I will definitely buy
> from them.
>
> ABAT will build modules of any voltage (integral multiple of 3.7V) and
> any capacity (integral multiples of 2Ah). They quoted a price to me
> for a 3.7V 50Ah module (without their BMS which I can't use anyway) of
> US$80.00. That is US$0.43 per nominal watt hour.
>
> A week ago, they announced two new products (37V 10Ah and 25.9V 10Ah)
> that include a BMS and leads to bypass the BMS. The BMS leads can be
> used to monitor the batteries when operating in bypass mode. I
> suggested to them that they include an opto-isolated digital output
> that indicates when the BMS would attempt to shut down. This could go
> to a controller that could shut down the motor or charger, or at least
> warn the operator that death was imminent.
>
> It is clear that they intend to compete on price. Lower price is what
> we need for these batteries.
>
> Ed
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2005, at 12:00 AM, Nick Austin wrote:
>
> > Has anybody here talked to ABAT?
> >
> > Do we have any idea if they are making EV sized batteries which we can
> > buy?
> >
> > Just curious.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 11:25:55PM -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >>> From Green Car Congress.
> >> ZAP will begin using Advanced Battery Technologies' (ABAT) Lithium-Ion
> >> Polymer batteries in its electric vehicles.
> >>
> >> Under the first phase of a new agreement, ABAT will retrofit a range
> >> of ZAP
> >> electric vehicles with its Lithium Polymer batteries and chargers.
> >>
> >> According to ZAP, initial testing shows that the ABAT batteries will
> >> increase the run time of ZAP's three and four-wheel vehicles by three
> >> times
> >> over Lead-Acid batteries. The threefold increase in energy density of
> >> the
> >> lithium polymer batteries could enable a similar threefold increase in
> >> transportation range for comparable-weight batteries, enabling ZAP's
> >> vehicles to achieve a significantly increased driving range between
> >> electric recharges.
> >>
> >> ABAT is a relatively new Chinese company developing, manufacturing and
> >> distributing rechargeable Lithium-Ion Polymer batteries.
> >>
> >> Lawrence Rhodes
> >> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> >> Reedmaker
> >> Book 4/5 doubler
> >> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> 415-821-3519
> >
> >
>
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