EV Digest 4355
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) TdS Report #30: The Reports Reporter Goes to the Tour de Sol to Report
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Static buildup on EVs
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: My project and question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Optima SAE Posts
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) anyone want to help me in Denver/ Boulder area
by "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Optima SAE Posts
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Yahoo archive, was: Re: Charger schematic
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Zebra Batteries - Update
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) FW: Chico EAA May meeting POSTPONED !!
by "Chuck Alldrin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: cruise control?
by Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Lawn Mower on Home Power
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Cruise Control : Zillas
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Lawn Mower on Home Power
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Lawn Mower on Home Power
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: My project and question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) OT: Re: Lawn Mower on Home Power
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: My project and question
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: My project and question
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Optima SAE Posts
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Rear wheel idea for fully enclosed MC
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: My project and question
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Lawn Mower on Home Power
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Mitsubishi Goes Electric: New EVs in 2010
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: My project and question
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Rear wheel idea for fully enclosed MC
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: cruise control?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: My project and question
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #30: The Reports Reporter Goes to the Tour de Sol to Report
For those who read these reports on a regular basis as the Tour de Sol occurs,
fair warning. I'm about to head out to the Tour de Sol to start recording
interviews and collecting John Helwig's pictures.
While that is going on, the Reports will be sporadicly posted, and when the
Tour itself is finished, they will continue for some at least a couple of weeks
as I type up the interviews. So if you don't see much activity over the next
few days just be aware that the Reports have not stopped, just slowed down.
Of course, if you can _come_ to the Tour de Sol, either in Saratoga Springs or
Albany, New York, that would be great! Be sure to stop by the NESEA table and
say that you read about it on the Tour de Sol Reports.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seppo Lindborg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:56 PM
Subject: Vas: Re: Static buildup on EVs
> Are you sure that the static is generated between the car and the ground?
My experience is that it is rather between the driver and the seat. I.e
dependent on the material of your clothing and the seat, so that your
movement in relation to the seat generates the charge. Especially synthetic
fibres in your clothing and in the seat contribute a lot. When I was a kid
at school a popular trick was to rub the seat of your pants against the
school chair and standing up. When you then touched somebody you both got
nastily zapped.
>
> A good way of doing the grounding is to have a coin or a key in your hand
and touching grounded metal with the coin or the tip of the key. There is a
good spark but it does not shock you. The reason might be that the current
is spread so wide in your fingers holding the coin.
>
> Seppo
I believe that the reason the key or coin works is for the same reason that
if you touch someone else when shocked they feel it instead of you!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Rau wrote:
> '92 Honda VX Hatchback, 5spd stock trans.
> WarP 9" motor
> Optima Batts. 13ea. of the larger #31's=156V
> PFC-20B Manzanita Micro charger
> Rudman Regs.
>
> Here is my question - ACTIVE BATTERY BOX VENTILATION?
Yes, they are sealed AGMs, so they don't normally leak or vent. However,
in the life of the batteries it is virtually guaranteed that at least
some of them WILL leak acid, and vent hydrogen. These are common failure
modes, so the odds are that it WILL happen to you.
If your battery box is totally closed and not ventilated, then the
leaked acid won't dry out. It usually leaks around the posts, where it
slowly rots away the terminals and wires. It also causes leakage current
paths, which speed up the self-discharge of the battery, and creates
ground faults that will trip your GFCI and prevent chargng. If you can
periodically inspect and clean the batteries, you can prevent the acid
from causing these failures.
Any battery that ever gets moderately overcharged will vent. This
becomes more likely the older the batteries get. It can also happen if
the charger is mis-adjusted, or a regulator fails, or a wire falls off
somewhere so the charger doesn't know a regulator is working. They can
also vent if you reverse a cell, such as from trying to drive too far on
a charge. In a closed non-vented battery box, the hydrogen is trapped.
There's quite a lot of volume inside the box, which means room for quite
a bit of hydrogen. If/when it ever ignites (from a loose connection
inside the battery box, for example), KABOOM!
Therefore, I think it is mandatory to provide some means of venting the
battery box. It doesn't have to be forced-air ventilation with a big
fan, as used with flooded batteries. But at least provide vents in two
corners so air can circulate. Screen them so bugs and mice can't get in.
Position them so water won't get in, and with one of them low so any
water that does get in will have a path to drain out. Position one vent
high; hydrogen is very light, and will rise and escape very quickly at
the highest point even without a fan.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Richard Rau wrote:
> In an effort to improve AND further complicate my project I am
> considering modifying the tapered posts so that they can take standard lugs.
>From Paul "neon" Gooch:
>
> BAD idea! The Optima posts are welded to the inner lead post at the top
> on the SAE post. If you cut into the side very far you break the seal.
> If you drill the post you will certainly break this seal. Learn to like
> auto type posts. They like high amp draws :-)
Richard Rau wrote:
> Valuable advice Paul. I would have been hurtin fur certain had
> I gone ahead with the milling plan.
>
>
Richard, as one who seeks out batteries with automotive style posts (the very
best for a
solid connection and high current transfer), I was cringing at your idea to
shave them
down so you could then use inferior methods of connecting cables. Be happy that
your
batteries come with the best type of terminals for an EV.
The only 'handier' type of battery terminal, especially if one is assembling a
high
voltage racing pack, is the flush mounted battery terminals with female treaded
holes in
brass that come with Hawkers. They allow one to stack batteries side by side
and connect
them together with stubby flat copper bus bars. The flush mount Hawker
terminals take some
getting used to, as they don't look like they can conduct BIG amps...but they
can and do.
In all my years of abusing Hawkers and pulling huge currents out of them, I've
never, ever
had a terminal failure of any kind.
As I'm currently working on swapping out my now 5 year old pack of 13 Optima
YTs for a
higher voltage string of 17 Exide Orbitals, I am pleased to report that their
automotive
style terminals have never failed, never gotten loose, never ever arced or
melted. Kudos
to Optima for making such a good battery, too, as these have never oozed or
leaked in any
way, and the gold plated car stereo type connectors still look as new, not a
spec of
corrosion anywhere. It sure makes my reconversion project easy, not having to
clean up
anything in the battery areas. You disconnect a terminal, and there's no green
fuzzy
stuff, no wetness to deal with, no half-disolved bolts...just a perfect looking
terminal
setup after 5 years of service. Lift that battery up, and a clean stainless
steel battery
tray greets your eye, pretty much clean enough to eat your lunch off of! All
batteries
should be this nice.
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
This list has been a great resource and I wish I had found it sooner.
I am writing because I am starting to loose steam on my project and would
love a helping had in finishing it.
It is a motorcycle built on a Yamaha FJ1100 frame. I have it going and
registered.
It still needs the rolling resistance optimized, probably repacking the
bearings. There is a bit of low speed wobble and I have a damper I would
like to mount.
Paint would be good.
Trace down a wiring problem with the blinkers.
Wire front break light.
Make better battery tie down solution.
Maybe a motor swap for a bigger one I have.
I don't really have money to pay you, but I may have a few parts to trade if
you need.
Anyway, if you are interested please email me.
Thanks in advance.
Garret
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Rau wrote:
> SAE posts offered on Optimas. That style provides good contact area,
> but the clamps are bulky.
For the kind of peak currents that the Optima batteries and 'Zilla
controller can deliver, you NEED a lot contact area! Golf cart battery
style 5/16" stud connections won't do it.
> In an effort to improve AND further complicate my project I am
> considering modifying the tapered posts so that they can take
> standard lugs. From my comfy chair this seems reasonable. What
> do you think?
There are a couple "gotchas". First, the Optima post is really two
posts, welded together at the top. The actual cell inside has a lead pin
that sticks up, about the diameter of a pencil. The cover has a hollow
lead post cast into it. They drop the cover in place, seal it around the
edges, and weld the lead pin to the lead post at the top.
If you drill a hole thru the post, you will cut the inner pin in two.
This will leave little or no connection to the post!
So, your best bet is to use the solid copper terminals for automotive
posts. Not the cheap-junk cast lead ones, or the high-resistance brass
ones; the copper ones. Crimp your wires into it with a good crimper, and
TEST them.
If you want to do some machining, you could probably make a terminal you
like that still has high conductivity. For example; make a mold, drop in
a formed copper buss bar, and then pour in lead to make a "dog-bone"
that has a highly conductive copper core and with lead automotive posts
on each end.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/11/05, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For what it is worth, the Crest archives
> <http://www.crest.org/discussion/ev/200201/> are still online, but only
> for posts prior to 2003. (I personally have never found the Yahoo
> archive of any use at all, but perhaps I have been acessing the wrong
> one as it only seems to be an archive of the digests.)
This is the one that is subscribed to individual posts:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/
It is occasionally useful if anything odd happens with the mailing list.
I've never found it very much use for searching, but fortunately I
have my own personal archive going back many years (and megabytes!)
Regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was just chatting with a CEBI USA distributor (www.cebi.com), who are now
the manufacturers of the ZEBRA battery. This year they have produced 30,000
of these batteries for the market. They are being used in such applications
as electric trains, submarines and delivery vehicles. Although they may not
be a suitable battery for a personal EV because of the warm up time, they
may be a suitable battery for an industrial application.
I have some specs for the beta version of the battery: 278V, 64Ah @ C1,
195kg, 10,000 lifecycles $8500. The performance and price has probably
changed since then.
This is a good energy density, 3 times that of PbA, nearing LiIon. With
10,000 lifecycles, it makes this battery lifespan rival the best NiCd.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chico EAA May meeting will not be held this month.
The next meeting will be Saturday June 11th.
Please call Chuck at 530-899-1835 if you have any questions.
Chuck Alldrin
www.energy-alternatives.com
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***************************************************************
Chuck Alldrin Chico, CA. KN6JS Ham call
"If my people...will humble themselves and pray...I will heal their land."
II Chronicles 7:14
***************************************************************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems to me that several years ago, a fellow in Hawaii was building an
EV cruise control. It was an interesting design in that it maintained
constant power, not constant speed. At least that is what I remember.
I think that he was associated with a university. Constant power made
sense if you are interested in maximizing range.
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI all,
I just got my new issue of Home Power, there is an article about a converter
lawn mower 'electric TORO' by Al Latham. You can download the current issue
(11.6 MB, big) free at www.homepower.com
Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:13 PM -0600 on 5/11/05, Ryan Bohm wrote:
This is apparently a "future feature" on the Zilla line of
controllers. The connections are there for it, I think it is a
software issue. Maybe if enough people express interest in this to
Otmar, we'll see it soon. I'm looking forward to connecting it on
the 200sx. It's not a high priority, but just one more thing to
tell everyone that it has. So far, power steering, power brakes, AC
(well, soon). It would be great to include cruise.
I'm not exactly sure how often I would use it. Who uses cruise
around town? :)
I do, but then my commute involves about 10 miles of freeway each way.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As of this issue the scumbags have started charging $5 for the
download.
I've subscribed for quite some time but also archived the PDF version
for later reference. It's a lot easier to find an old article by
searching the PDFs. This latest stunt following their removal of much
of the other free downloads will end my relationship with them. When
this subscription expires, bye bye. There is barely enough NEW stuff
in the mag to justify the print subscription, much less getting nicked
again for the electronic version
On Thu, 12 May 2005 07:54:54 -0700, Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>HI all,
>
>I just got my new issue of Home Power, there is an article about a converter
>lawn mower 'electric TORO' by Al Latham. You can download the current issue
>(11.6 MB, big) free at www.homepower.com
>
>Rush Dougherty
>Tucson AZ
>www.ironandwood.org
>
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:54 AM 5/12/2005, you wrote:
HI all,
I just got my new issue of Home Power, there is an article about a
converter lawn mower 'electric TORO' by Al Latham. You can download the
current issue (11.6 MB, big) free at www.homepower.com
Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
Looks like they are not free anymore. There is a free sample but you have
to pay for the current issue.
__________
Andre' B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Rau wrote:
> On the subject of enclosing the batteries, I apparently hadn't given
> enough consideration to the heating/cooling part of it. It would be
> wise for me to insulate the rear boxes and also to run a fan for
> cooling. Come winter I would be hurting for range with such a low
> capacity pack.
I agree. If you locate your vents carefully, you may not even need the
fan. If you do use a fan, it can be very small.
Where do you live? If you get real winters, try to include some
insulation, and maybe even heaters.
> Should I then have some spacers between batteries to aid in cooling
> air circulation?
No; the Optima case design is such that there is naturally a *lot* of
air space around cells.
Heat is not likely to be a problem unless you live in a climate that
stays above 100 deg.F for extended periods. Even if it does, a small fan
usually provides plenty of cooling.
> (Swelling should not be an issue with Optimas)
Right; the spiral type cell designs don't swell at all.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Easy there now! "Scumbags"? They have been giving their .pdf magazine
away for a number of years, and for that they are "scumbags"? Why
should they give away their magazine for free? For a little historical
context, when they first started putting HomePower up on their website
as a downloadable .pdf they said something along the lines of, "We
haven't figured out exactly how to charge for the electronic version, so
until we do, it will be free." I'm just happy that it took them so
many years to "figure it out".
Two sides to every coin,
Andrew
Neon John wrote:
As of this issue the scumbags have started charging $5 for the
download.
I've subscribed for quite some time but also archived the PDF version
for later reference. It's a lot easier to find an old article by
searching the PDFs. This latest stunt following their removal of much
of the other free downloads will end my relationship with them. When
this subscription expires, bye bye. There is barely enough NEW stuff
in the mag to justify the print subscription, much less getting nicked
again for the electronic version
On Thu, 12 May 2005 07:54:54 -0700, Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
HI all,
I just got my new issue of Home Power, there is an article about a converter lawn mower 'electric TORO' by Al Latham. You can download the current issue (11.6 MB, big) free at www.homepower.com
Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve, Motor length should be okay for my space, but I should confirm.
Good to know about the shorter NetGain 9. I have not placed a motor order
yet so it may be a good option.
I will ask regarding Zilla upgrade from LV to MV. Last night I got out my
battery-shoehorn-tapemeasure and found that I could squeeze in a couple
more. Now it's time to get on the phone ..... see ya!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of STEVE CLUNN
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: My project and question
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
T> I have room for the larger diameter because I am not placing a battery
over
> the motor as is often done in Civics.
its the lenth I'm thinking about , Net gain is comming out with a shorter 9
" that will be inbetween a 8 and a 9 , but if you can get it in there fine .
>
> Only 13 batteries. I may regret that someday. True, I did buy the 156V
> max
> Zilla, so I will be limited. There may be a good used Z1K available
> someday.
I believe you can have it up graded , without spending a lot of money ,
maybe just shipping , just ask :-)
are you going to be driving 25 miles often?
Steve Clunn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of STEVE CLUNN
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 8:20 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: My project and question
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> '92 Honda VX Hatchback, 5spd stock trans.
>> WarP 9" motor
>>
> can you get a 9 in there , in a light car the 8 would do just fine , look
> at
>
> Rich's goldie .
>
>> Optima Batts. 13ea. of the larger #31's=156V
>> Zilla Z1K controller w/ large venturis and hi-volume acc. pumps ;-)
>
> as your going with 13 batteries , you are getting the low voltage
> controller
>
> , I'd get the 300v volt one , its not that much more but you can put more
> batteries in the car ,
>
>> Well, maybe it won't be *that* fast, but I expect it to be a little
>> sportier
>> than my GEM Utility NEV.
>>
> How times have changed , I remember getting my first zapi 600 amp
> controller , " we got power now " , :-)
>
>
>
>
>> I decided to build a sporty car, even at the expense of RANGE. Ask me
>> in
>
>> a
>> year if I am still satisfied with 25 miles.
>>
> I went from 20 to 25 golf cart batteries in my work truck and it opened up
> allot more driving for me , I would really think about trying to get more
> batteries in there.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Here is my question -
>>
>> ACTIVE BATTERY BOX VENTILATION ?? I would like to SKIP that. Who of you
>> believes that I can safely do that? Who thinks I should increase my life
>> insurance payoff?
>
> On a few of my EV's with golf cart batteries I could smell the batteries
> when I'd get into the car , and drive with the windows open to air things
> out, but I have never smelled anything with the Orbitals ( agm's) ,
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, these are sealed AGM's and they will be charged carefully (barring
>> equipment failures or adjustment error). Hydrogen accumulation in
>> (sealed?) battery boxes should not be a problem, right?
>>
>>
>>
>> I am hoping that this subject is interesting to some of you on the list.
>> I
>> value your opinions.
>>
>>
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Richard Rau
>>
>> 2001 GEM short-bed
>>
>> 2003 Giant LA Free bicycle w/NiMH batts.
>>
>> Co-founder of BikeE Corp.
>>
>> Honda Civic 3dr. (est. completion in fall 2005)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would vent your battery boxes, more for cooling than H2 build up. For
my battery boxes, I have installed 110V fans purchased from a computer
supply house (about $15) and have them hooked to a SPDT switch that
either turns the fan solid on or routes the power through a thermal
switch ($10) that turns the fan on at 105F and then shuts down when
cooled to 85F. This works well if there is a hotter than expected day
and I fail to turn the fans early.
Lynn Adams
See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Rau
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 8:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: My project and question
I apologize if this is a repeat ... my system was acting up this
afternoon.
Okay, now that introductions are complete (earlier today) I am ready to
expose my project along with a burning question. Here is my conversion-
'92 Honda VX Hatchback, 5spd stock trans.
WarP 9" motor
Optima Batts. 13ea. of the larger #31's=156V
Zilla Z1K controller w/ large venturis and hi-volume acc. pumps ;-)
Hall effect Amp Pedal
PFC-20B Manzanita Micro charger
Rutman Regs. - planning on remote LED placement
Zivan DC-DC converter
Civic Si disc brakes Frt.&Rr
Tokico struts w/ Eibach springs
Calfskin driving gloves
Well, maybe it won't be *that* fast, but I expect it to be a little
sportier than my GEM Utility NEV.
I decided to build a sporty car, even at the expense of RANGE. Ask me
in a
year if I am still satisfied with 25 miles.
I am early into the fabrication part of it now. The designers at Honda
did such a good job of filling the available nooks and crannies that I
am hard
pressed to make it look like a 'factory' job. Enough whining.
Nine of the Optimas will be in two boxes, one is forward of and one is
behind the rear 'axle'.
These two boxes will be as low and as unobtrusive as I can make them.
(Victor's ACRX is a beautiful example)
Here is my question -
ACTIVE BATTERY BOX VENTILATION ?? I would like to SKIP that. Who of
you believes that I can safely do that? Who thinks I should increase my
life insurance payoff?
Yes, these are sealed AGM's and they will be charged carefully (barring
equipment failures or adjustment error). Hydrogen accumulation in
(sealed?) battery boxes should not be a problem, right?
I am hoping that this subject is interesting to some of you on the list.
I value your opinions.
Respectfully,
Richard Rau
2001 GEM short-bed
2003 Giant LA Free bicycle w/NiMH batts.
Co-founder of BikeE Corp.
Honda Civic 3dr. (est. completion in fall 2005)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's it ... you did it! I'm now converted.
Knowledge is a good thing.
RR
Btw- I live in the PDX/Woodburn area. Look forward to meeting you.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Optima SAE Posts
Hello to All,
Richard Rau wrote:
> In an effort to improve AND further complicate my project I am
> considering modifying the tapered posts so that they can take standard
lugs.
>From Paul "neon" Gooch:
>
> BAD idea! The Optima posts are welded to the inner lead post at the top
> on the SAE post. If you cut into the side very far you break the seal.
> If you drill the post you will certainly break this seal. Learn to like
> auto type posts. They like high amp draws :-)
Richard Rau wrote:
> Valuable advice Paul. I would have been hurtin fur certain had
> I gone ahead with the milling plan.
>
>
Richard, as one who seeks out batteries with automotive style posts (the
very best for a
solid connection and high current transfer), I was cringing at your idea to
shave them
down so you could then use inferior methods of connecting cables. Be happy
that your
batteries come with the best type of terminals for an EV.
The only 'handier' type of battery terminal, especially if one is assembling
a high
voltage racing pack, is the flush mounted battery terminals with female
treaded holes in
brass that come with Hawkers. They allow one to stack batteries side by side
and connect
them together with stubby flat copper bus bars. The flush mount Hawker
terminals take some
getting used to, as they don't look like they can conduct BIG amps...but
they can and do.
In all my years of abusing Hawkers and pulling huge currents out of them,
I've never, ever
had a terminal failure of any kind.
As I'm currently working on swapping out my now 5 year old pack of 13 Optima
YTs for a
higher voltage string of 17 Exide Orbitals, I am pleased to report that
their automotive
style terminals have never failed, never gotten loose, never ever arced or
melted. Kudos
to Optima for making such a good battery, too, as these have never oozed or
leaked in any
way, and the gold plated car stereo type connectors still look as new, not a
spec of
corrosion anywhere. It sure makes my reconversion project easy, not having
to clean up
anything in the battery areas. You disconnect a terminal, and there's no
green fuzzy
stuff, no wetness to deal with, no half-disolved bolts...just a perfect
looking terminal
setup after 5 years of service. Lift that battery up, and a clean stainless
steel battery
tray greets your eye, pretty much clean enough to eat your lunch off of! All
batteries
should be this nice.
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/2005/050428.Shim.bike.html
How do those backwheels move to the up right postion? A gear box of some sort?
Those back wheels remind me of the front wheels on a tractor...
http://fairfieldmint.com/inventory/oliver_tractor_6d/art/Oliver-front.jpg
Why are the front wheels loose and sloppy like that on some tractors?
What purpose does it serve?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, Your points are well taken. Between your feedback on fume venting and
the comments from Mike Chancey about heating and cooling effects, I have
made the decision to ventilate the boxes.
I felt all along that it would be helpful to do so, but was trying to
save some fab time. Well, I can think of safer ways to save time.
My focus has been to complete the conversion in time for Woodburn Nationals.
Now I have accepted the possibility of the project not being
done by September, so things are lightening up.
Thanks for the support!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 9:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: My project and question
Richard Rau wrote:
> '92 Honda VX Hatchback, 5spd stock trans.
> WarP 9" motor
> Optima Batts. 13ea. of the larger #31's=156V
> PFC-20B Manzanita Micro charger
> Rudman Regs.
>
> Here is my question - ACTIVE BATTERY BOX VENTILATION?
Yes, they are sealed AGMs, so they don't normally leak or vent. However,
in the life of the batteries it is virtually guaranteed that at least
some of them WILL leak acid, and vent hydrogen. These are common failure
modes, so the odds are that it WILL happen to you.
If your battery box is totally closed and not ventilated, then the
leaked acid won't dry out. It usually leaks around the posts, where it
slowly rots away the terminals and wires. It also causes leakage current
paths, which speed up the self-discharge of the battery, and creates
ground faults that will trip your GFCI and prevent chargng. If you can
periodically inspect and clean the batteries, you can prevent the acid
from causing these failures.
Any battery that ever gets moderately overcharged will vent. This
becomes more likely the older the batteries get. It can also happen if
the charger is mis-adjusted, or a regulator fails, or a wire falls off
somewhere so the charger doesn't know a regulator is working. They can
also vent if you reverse a cell, such as from trying to drive too far on
a charge. In a closed non-vented battery box, the hydrogen is trapped.
There's quite a lot of volume inside the box, which means room for quite
a bit of hydrogen. If/when it ever ignites (from a loose connection
inside the battery box, for example), KABOOM!
Therefore, I think it is mandatory to provide some means of venting the
battery box. It doesn't have to be forced-air ventilation with a big
fan, as used with flooded batteries. But at least provide vents in two
corners so air can circulate. Screen them so bugs and mice can't get in.
Position them so water won't get in, and with one of them low so any
water that does get in will have a path to drain out. Position one vent
high; hydrogen is very light, and will rise and escape very quickly at
the highest point even without a fan.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Right on Andrew! Richard and Karen Perez and crew are great folks with great
values. Their magazine has been an inspiration for many years.
I have issue #1
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Letton
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 9:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: OT: Re: Lawn Mower on Home Power
Easy there now! "Scumbags"? They have been giving their .pdf magazine
away for a number of years, and for that they are "scumbags"? Why
should they give away their magazine for free? For a little historical
context, when they first started putting HomePower up on their website
as a downloadable .pdf they said something along the lines of, "We
haven't figured out exactly how to charge for the electronic version, so
until we do, it will be free." I'm just happy that it took them so
many years to "figure it out".
Two sides to every coin,
Andrew
Neon John wrote:
>As of this issue the scumbags have started charging $5 for the
>download.
>
>I've subscribed for quite some time but also archived the PDF version
>for later reference. It's a lot easier to find an old article by
>searching the PDFs. This latest stunt following their removal of much
>of the other free downloads will end my relationship with them. When
>this subscription expires, bye bye. There is barely enough NEW stuff
>in the mag to justify the print subscription, much less getting nicked
>again for the electronic version
>
>On Thu, 12 May 2005 07:54:54 -0700, Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>HI all,
>>
>>I just got my new issue of Home Power, there is an article about a
converter lawn mower 'electric TORO' by Al Latham. You can download the
current issue (11.6 MB, big) free at www.homepower.com
>>
>>Rush Dougherty
>>Tucson AZ
>>www.ironandwood.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>---
>John De Armond
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>http://www.johngsbbq.com
>Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> fitted two 20 kW in-wheel motors with 600 Nm (443 lb-ft) torque each
See, they are smart. They use the impressive torque number instead of
the absurd "continuous hp rating" which might be ~30hp or whatever it
is..
The way to sell electric vehicles is to advertise how much torque they
make and/or what their peak hp is. The continuous rating is always a
huge turn off in a first impression situation.
It's my impression from all the non EV types I've spoken with that
their impression of electric vehicles is of the 96 volt and less
variety from the early 1980's and 70's.
Somewhere is a "magic number" as far as range is concerned. 30 miles
just isn't it. 40 doesn't seem to be it either.
For some reason, non EV types have a fear of what they perceive to be
such little range. They fear getting stranded.
I feel there might be some range number they would find acceptable.
Sadly, it might be the round number of "100". Even though there might
be a chance some number of 60 - 90 might do the trick too.
It's kind of absurd though, when speaking of lead acid batteries, to
build a vehicle with 100 mile range when these same people never, ever
drive 100 miles any day of the week.
Now with some non lead battery, range may be trivial?
If White Zombie had a non lead pack, could it still run mid to low
12's, or would it even be in the 11's due to less weight? Or would
the amp draw limitations of those other batteries keep it from running
the number?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, Your suggestions are leading to refinement of my vent scheme.
I live in the Willamette Valley south of Portland Oregon.
Fairly mild climate. A hot day in summer is 90F and there are few days in
winter that stay in the 30's. I am not a daily driver so it's quite
possible to avoid the temp extremes if needed. I work out of my custom
home-based shop and my usual drives are less than 12 miles.
Still, insulating and heating the batteries has some appeal. That would mean
a lot of additional work as my batteries will be in 5 locations. Once again,
I am weighing the required work hours to the performance benefits.
The gears are turning.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: My project and question
Richard Rau wrote:
> On the subject of enclosing the batteries, I apparently hadn't given
> enough consideration to the heating/cooling part of it. It would be
> wise for me to insulate the rear boxes and also to run a fan for
> cooling. Come winter I would be hurting for range with such a low
> capacity pack.
I agree. If you locate your vents carefully, you may not even need the
fan. If you do use a fan, it can be very small.
Where do you live? If you get real winters, try to include some
insulation, and maybe even heaters.
> Should I then have some spacers between batteries to aid in cooling
> air circulation?
No; the Optima case design is such that there is naturally a *lot* of
air space around cells.
Heat is not likely to be a problem unless you live in a climate that
stays above 100 deg.F for extended periods. Even if it does, a small fan
usually provides plenty of cooling.
> (Swelling should not be an issue with Optimas)
Right; the spiral type cell designs don't swell at all.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They are not loose they are intentionally angled like that to make steering
easier by minimizing the length of the torque arm between the steering axis
and the contact patch of the wheels. On rough ground seldom are both front
wheels on the ground at the same time.
____________
Andre' B.
At 01:07 PM 5/12/2005, you wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/2005/050428.Shim.bike.html
How do those backwheels move to the up right postion? A gear box of some sort?
Those back wheels remind me of the front wheels on a tractor...
http://fairfieldmint.com/inventory/oliver_tractor_6d/art/Oliver-front.jpg
Why are the front wheels loose and sloppy like that on some tractors?
What purpose does it serve?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you wanted to maximize range, would it be best to have the cruise
control make constant the speed, power, or current? An extreme
example would be a steep hill, you might need 1000 Amps to maintain a
high speed, so you'd probably be happy to go up slower and save your
range.
--- Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Seems to me that several years ago, a fellow in Hawaii was building
> an
> EV cruise control. It was an interesting design in that it
> maintained
> constant power, not constant speed. At least that is what I
> remember.
> I think that he was associated with a university. Constant power
> made
> sense if you are interested in maximizing range.
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard,
I use 1/2 inch blue foam insulation around the batteries inside the
battery boxes to keep my batteries warm in the winter, of couse, being
in Colorado I also use battery heaters when it gets cold, but at 30F or
so the heating of the batteries during charging in the insulated battery
box keeps them at about 70-80F in daily use.
I remove the foam insulation (using foam pieces to route the air and
stabalize the batteries)to provide better air circulation around the
batteries in the summer. In the summer when the outside temperature get
into the 100's, the fans cool keep the batteries around 110, not ideal,
but it's what I have to live with.
Lynn Adams
15092 miles on my T875's as of today.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Rau
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 12:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: My project and question
Lee, Your suggestions are leading to refinement of my vent scheme.
I live in the Willamette Valley south of Portland Oregon. Fairly mild
climate. A hot day in summer is 90F and there are few days in winter
that stay in the 30's. I am not a daily driver so it's quite possible
to avoid the temp extremes if needed. I work out of my custom
home-based shop and my usual drives are less than 12 miles.
Still, insulating and heating the batteries has some appeal. That would
mean a lot of additional work as my batteries will be in 5 locations.
Once again, I am weighing the required work hours to the performance
benefits. The gears are turning.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: My project and question
Richard Rau wrote:
> On the subject of enclosing the batteries, I apparently hadn't given
> enough consideration to the heating/cooling part of it. It would be
> wise for me to insulate the rear boxes and also to run a fan for
> cooling. Come winter I would be hurting for range with such a low
> capacity pack.
I agree. If you locate your vents carefully, you may not even need the
fan. If you do use a fan, it can be very small.
Where do you live? If you get real winters, try to include some
insulation, and maybe even heaters.
> Should I then have some spacers between batteries to aid in cooling
> air circulation?
No; the Optima case design is such that there is naturally a *lot* of
air space around cells.
Heat is not likely to be a problem unless you live in a climate that
stays above 100 deg.F for extended periods. Even if it does, a small fan
usually provides plenty of cooling.
> (Swelling should not be an issue with Optimas)
Right; the spiral type cell designs don't swell at all.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
