EV Digest 4356
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: cruise control? - maximizing range
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: "eBay hype" or innovation?
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: My project and question
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: cruise control? - maximizing range
by =?windows-1252?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: My project and question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) 2005 HONDA FCX
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Motor Temp (was Re: An update regarding my JeepEV)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Tour de Sol Saturday at Saratoga Springs NY
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Mitsubishi BEV p'type: L-Ion, wheel motors
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Mitsubishi, HubMotors, Li-ion BEV!
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Optima SAE Posts
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) PA EV registration
by "Jon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Rear wheel idea for fully enclosed MC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Motor Temp (was Re: An update regarding my JeepEV)
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) OT: Re: Lawn Mower on Home Power
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: PA EV registration
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor Temp (was Re: An update regarding my JeepEV)
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Battery box venting
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Optima SAE Posts
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: My project and question
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: 2005 HONDA FCX
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 2005 HONDA FCX
by Quin Pendragon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Rear wheel idea for fully enclosed MC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Rear wheel idea for fully enclosed MC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: My project and question
by mreish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: anyone want to help me in Denver/ Boulder area
by mreish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) new motor
by "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: 2005 HONDA FCX
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Battery box venting
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: My project and question; battery venting
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
If you wanted to maximize range, would it be best to have the cruise
control make constant the speed, power, or current? An extreme
example would be a steep hill, you might need 1000 Amps to maintain a
high speed, so you'd probably be happy to go up slower and save your
range.
I think the question has to be qualified better before it can be answered.
If you really want to maximize range, you want to go very slow all the
time.
On the other hand, if you want to maximize range for a given average speed,
my guess is that you might want something close to constant power or battery
current. ( Almost the same, except for battery sag changes with state of
charge { between the beginning and end of the drive}). Constant speed is
certainly not the way to do it - you would have periods of very high current
draw if it were hilly terrain. ( not quite so bad for AGMs as floodeds).
Of course, on downhill stretches you would probably want to reduce power
input to keep your speed down somewhat and keep the aero drag from getting
too high.
Certainly the best way to do it would depend on the battery type ( in
particular, how large is the Peukert effect) and all of the other details of
the motor and vehicle. Constant power ( or battery current) would seem like
a good place to start.
A good, accurate math model could give you the answer, but its probably not
worth the effort. If the real answer was to go up hills at 8 MPH, it
wouldn't be a useful solution anyway.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awesome referances John, thanks. I owe ya a bottle of "Sweet Baby Rays".
David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: "eBay hype" or innovation?
> On Wed, 11 May 2005 21:39:49 -0700, "David Chapman"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >John,
> >Could you share the URL for the pulse charger plans that you mention you
are
> >thinking about building? Thanks David Chapman.
>
> Sure.
>
> http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
>
> Lots of good links from that site too.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lynn,
Glad that you wrote, and it's good to hear about your experience
owning/operating your Civic. The heating effect of battery charging would
probably be enough to get me by because of our kinda-mild winters here in
Western Oregon. Also, it sounds like it would be wise for me to add a fan
for summer cooling. Given the fact that I have already commited to putting
together a semi hi-tech, semi-sensitive system, I shouldn't scrimp on
support for my AGM's.
Thanks to your website info and Bob Bath for all the Civic specific
know-how!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Adams, Lynn
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 12:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: My project and question
Richard,
I use 1/2 inch blue foam insulation around the batteries inside the
battery boxes to keep my batteries warm in the winter, of couse, being
in Colorado I also use battery heaters when it gets cold, but at 30F or
so the heating of the batteries during charging in the insulated battery
box keeps them at about 70-80F in daily use.
I remove the foam insulation (using foam pieces to route the air and
stabalize the batteries)to provide better air circulation around the
batteries in the summer. In the summer when the outside temperature get
into the 100's, the fans cool keep the batteries around 110, not ideal,
but it's what I have to live with.
Lynn Adams
15092 miles on my T875's as of today.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Rau
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 12:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: My project and question
Lee, Your suggestions are leading to refinement of my vent scheme.
I live in the Willamette Valley south of Portland Oregon. Fairly mild
climate. A hot day in summer is 90F and there are few days in winter
that stay in the 30's. I am not a daily driver so it's quite possible
to avoid the temp extremes if needed. I work out of my custom
home-based shop and my usual drives are less than 12 miles.
Still, insulating and heating the batteries has some appeal. That would
mean a lot of additional work as my batteries will be in 5 locations.
Once again, I am weighing the required work hours to the performance
benefits. The gears are turning.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: My project and question
Richard Rau wrote:
> On the subject of enclosing the batteries, I apparently hadn't given
> enough consideration to the heating/cooling part of it. It would be
> wise for me to insulate the rear boxes and also to run a fan for
> cooling. Come winter I would be hurting for range with such a low
> capacity pack.
I agree. If you locate your vents carefully, you may not even need the
fan. If you do use a fan, it can be very small.
Where do you live? If you get real winters, try to include some
insulation, and maybe even heaters.
> Should I then have some spacers between batteries to aid in cooling
> air circulation?
No; the Optima case design is such that there is naturally a *lot* of
air space around cells.
Heat is not likely to be a problem unless you live in a climate that
stays above 100 deg.F for extended periods. Even if it does, a small fan
usually provides plenty of cooling.
> (Swelling should not be an issue with Optimas)
Right; the spiral type cell designs don't swell at all.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have noticed that if driving with "constant current" -mode I can get
very nice range. If I try to maintain the "constant speed" -mode uphills
do suck amps a lot. In down hill the speed easily goes over the
target(90 km/h) and drag takes a big cut from the actual energy stored
in "uphill". This is of course due the lousy aero of the car.
If I have a flat road and keep the 90 km/h I can get 180 km easily. If
road is hilly I get with same kind of driving only 150 km or so.
I've been thinking to put a cruise control in the car since driving with
low speed few hours straight numbs throttle-leg seriously. And this
Berlingo car has regen binded in throttle pedal. When I lift it regen
starts. So foot has to be quite steadily on the pedal all he time. (=PAIN)
-Jukka
Philip Marino wrote:
If you wanted to maximize range, would it be best to have the cruise
control make constant the speed, power, or current? An extreme
example would be a steep hill, you might need 1000 Amps to maintain a
high speed, so you'd probably be happy to go up slower and save your
range.
I think the question has to be qualified better before it can be
answered. If you really want to maximize range, you want to go very
slow all the time.
On the other hand, if you want to maximize range for a given average
speed, my guess is that you might want something close to constant power
or battery current. ( Almost the same, except for battery sag changes
with state of charge { between the beginning and end of the drive}).
Constant speed is certainly not the way to do it - you would have
periods of very high current draw if it were hilly terrain. ( not quite
so bad for AGMs as floodeds).
Of course, on downhill stretches you would probably want to reduce power
input to keep your speed down somewhat and keep the aero drag from
getting too high.
Certainly the best way to do it would depend on the battery type ( in
particular, how large is the Peukert effect) and all of the other
details of the motor and vehicle. Constant power ( or battery current)
would seem like a good place to start.
A good, accurate math model could give you the answer, but its probably
not worth the effort. If the real answer was to go up hills at 8 MPH,
it wouldn't be a useful solution anyway.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Rau wrote:
> I live in the Willamette Valley south of Portland Oregon. Fairly
> mild climate. A hot day in summer is 90F and there are few days
> in winter that stay in the 30's... Still, insulating and heating
> the batteries has some appeal. That would mean a lot of additional
> work as my batteries will be in 5 locations. Once again, I am
> weighing the required work hours to the performance benefits.
Optimas have an odd shape, so insulating them can be interesting. One
idea is to take advantage of their 6-pack cylindrical shape. Put them in
your battery box, then pour in loose styrafoam beads. Styrafoam is a
good insulator, weighs almost nothing, and is unaffected by battery acid
in case of vents or leaks.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Honda EV+ I beleive was faster and weighed less. It also had about the
same range. This Fuel cell vehicle was made from the EV+ body.
2005 HONDA FCX
ON SALE: Now
PRICE: Only available by lease to select customers
POWERTRAIN: 107-hp, 201-lb-ft AC synchronous electric motor; fwd
(electricity from 86-kW hydrogen fuel cell stack), direct drive
CURB WEIGHT: 3680 lbs
0 to 60 MPH: 11 seconds (est.)
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
The motor in my Jeep has been reaching 140 degrees F after ~16 miles of
driving at speeds between 35 and 50 MPH. I measured this temperature by
sticking the temp. probe into the threaded hole in my motor's tail shaft.
Quick question: What is the maximum safe temperature a 9" ADC motor
should be allowed to reach and what would be the first thing to be
damaged if the motor gets too hot (insulation on the windings maybe?)
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am driving down from the Montreal area early Saturday.
Is anyone else going?
Thanks.
Best Regards,
Doug
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://media.mitsubishi-motors.com/pressrelease/e/corporate/detail1269.html
http://tinyurl.com/cuq22
Tokyo, May 11, 2005 � Mitsubishi Motors has chosen to center its
development of next-generation electric vehicle technology on in-wheel
motors and on lithium-ion batteries that the company has been working on for
several years.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As seen in the Prius-G2 group:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius-2G/message/36191
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jthoundayil" wrote:
http://media.mitsubishi-motors.com/pressrelease/e/corporate/detail1269.html
>
> The Colt can be easily redesigned to be
> Gasoline hybrid or a Fuel Cell hybrid.
>
> Vehicles designed to be modular with different
> energy sources seems like a good idea to me.
Yup, a very good idea.
Today it's got about 100 miles of Li-ion range.
10-20 years down the road, toss in the latest FoolCell "battery"
Incase anyone was interested in a breakdown of the specifications:
"1150 kg (2,535 Lbs)
"150km/h (93mph) top speed
"150km . (93 miles) Range per charge
"20kW & 600Nm * 2 ( sorta weak, 4wd would be peppier! )
"Li-ion battery 40Ah, 14.8v, 22 modules.
The way I read that it has the equivilant of 4*40Ah cells per
module. 22 such modules (592 Wh each) gives it a total of 13kWh.
So 93 miles per 13kWh is a very impressive 7 miles per kWh.
.oO( Or it's very optimistic, probably at low speeds <= 45mph )
Keep in mind that Li-ion cells don't seem to mind 100% discharge,
so there's no problem using their full ranger, no 40%-80% windows.
No idea what the pack configuration is, it could be 14.8v*880Ah,
651.2v*40Ah, or perhaps 325.6v*80Ah, kWh remains the same regardless.
Anyway, I sure wish I could get my
hands on a pair of those hubmotors!
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <
As I'm currently working on swapping out my now 5 year old pack of 13
Optima YTs for a
higher voltage string of 17 Exide Orbitals,
I like how Optima's have there post toward the middle on the top of there
batteries , so there's no way for a post to bump up against each other ,
other batteries or the side of a battery box . This is the only thing the
EXide orbitals didn't do . Maybe nobody told them this could be a problem .
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know how to get a EV conversion licensed, registered and
inspected in PA? I tried calling different offices of the state... they were
zero help. Before I think anymore about the project I'd like to know it is
at least legally possible to do it.
thanks,
Jon Davis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/2005/050428.Shim.bike.html
>
>How do those backwheels move to the up right postion? A gear box of some sort?
I would guess each wheel's horizontal axis is suspended at a right angle to
short shafts in parallel and geared to each other and these pivot in relation
to the speed...but that's just a non-engineer's guess.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 4:27 PM
Subject: Motor Temp (was Re: An update regarding my JeepEV)
Hi,
The motor in my Jeep has been reaching 140 degrees F after ~16 miles of
driving at speeds between 35 and 50 MPH. I measured this temperature by
sticking the temp. probe into the threaded hole in my motor's tail shaft.
Quick question: What is the maximum safe temperature a 9" ADC motor
should be allowed to reach and what would be the first thing to be
damaged if the motor gets too hot (insulation on the windings maybe?)
The temperature in the tailshaft hole doesn't matter. Temperature of the
armature and field windings matter as does the temperature of the brushes.
Several on this list including me have measured brush temperature with a
thermocouple imbedded in one of the brushes. Brush temperature is an
approximate indication of armature winding temperature because heat in
the windings is conducted thermally to the commuator and to the brushes.
I recall some discussion about allowable maximum brush temperature on
this list but I don't recall any meeting of the minds on allowable maximums.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Easy there now! "Scumbags"? They have been giving their .pdf magazine
> away for a number of years, and for that they are "scumbags"? Why
> should they give away their magazine for free? For a little historical
> context, when they first started putting HomePower up on their website
> as a downloadable .pdf they said something along the lines of, "We
> haven't figured out exactly how to charge for the electronic version, so
> until we do, it will be free." I'm just happy that it took them so
> many years to "figure it out".
> Two sides to every coin,
> Andrew
>
I agree, but it does appear Homepower is headed down the Mother Earth News
pathway. I had several years of the hardcopy I sold on eBay because they were
sitting in my bookshelf for so long, maybe because I had read them so
thoroughly I had practically memorized some sections! The latest issues I
viewed online have had less and less pertinence to me - even the EV section had
stopped keeping my attention. That said, I'm sure it still has a sizeable
audience willing to pay, and I, for one, *do* wish them good fortune.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 12 May 2005, Jon wrote:
Does anyone know how to get a EV conversion licensed, registered and
inspected in PA? I tried calling different offices of the state... they were
zero help. Before I think anymore about the project I'd like to know it is
at least legally possible to do it.
You need to get it titled as a modified vehicle. Get a form MV-426B and
find a state inspection station which is willing to deal with you knowing
what you have.
I have not yet gotten mine titled, as it needs to be operable again to be
inspected, and I don't have the new batteries cabled in yet. Really what I
need to do is find someone else interested in this who's around and
willing to help when I get to the places where it's more than a one man
job.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most EV motors and forklift motors have class H
insulation (that's 180 degrees Celsius).
If you have a thermocouple mounted IN the winding I
wouldn't go above 150C.
Measuring temperature anywhere besides the brush or
winding is somewhat quesswork since it takes awhile
for the temp to propogate from those locations,
especially under heavy load conditions (lots of big
hills).
You could also mount a sniffer tube :-). You'll smell
those windings cooking before you really do major
damage in most cases.
Rod
--- Tom Shay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 4:27 PM
> Subject: Motor Temp (was Re: An update regarding my
> JeepEV)
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > The motor in my Jeep has been reaching 140 degrees
> F after ~16 miles of
> > driving at speeds between 35 and 50 MPH. I
> measured this temperature by
> > sticking the temp. probe into the threaded hole in
> my motor's tail shaft.
> >
> > Quick question: What is the maximum safe
> temperature a 9" ADC motor
> > should be allowed to reach and what would be the
> first thing to be
> > damaged if the motor gets too hot (insulation on
> the windings maybe?)
>
> The temperature in the tailshaft hole doesn't
> matter. Temperature of the
> armature and field windings matter as does the
> temperature of the brushes.
> Several on this list including me have measured
> brush temperature with a
> thermocouple imbedded in one of the brushes. Brush
> temperature is an
> approximate indication of armature winding
> temperature because heat in
> the windings is conducted thermally to the commuator
> and to the brushes.
> I recall some discussion about allowable maximum
> brush temperature on
> this list but I don't recall any meeting of the
> minds on allowable maximums.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm building new battery boxes for my lead acid cells.
I was planning on having vent fans that run off the
charging voltage. Do I need to have the ventilation
fans run while driving as well? I'm in Southern
California and the temperature does get up there in
the summer for a month or two. Will hot batteries
shorten the life span of lead acid cells?
TiM
Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Richard, and welcome to the List! Where are you exactly? I live just
east of Hubbard.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: Optima SAE Posts
> That's it ... you did it! I'm now converted.
> Knowledge is a good thing.
> RR
> Btw- I live in the PDX/Woodburn area. Look forward to meeting you.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of John Wayland
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:09 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Optima SAE Posts
>
> Hello to All,
>
> Richard Rau wrote:
>
> > In an effort to improve AND further complicate my project I am
> > considering modifying the tapered posts so that they can take standard
> lugs.
>
> >From Paul "neon" Gooch:
>
> >
> > BAD idea! The Optima posts are welded to the inner lead post at the top
> > on the SAE post. If you cut into the side very far you break the seal.
> > If you drill the post you will certainly break this seal. Learn to like
> > auto type posts. They like high amp draws :-)
>
> Richard Rau wrote:
>
>
> > Valuable advice Paul. I would have been hurtin fur certain had
> > I gone ahead with the milling plan.
> >
> >
> Richard, as one who seeks out batteries with automotive style posts (the
> very best for a
> solid connection and high current transfer), I was cringing at your idea
to
> shave them
> down so you could then use inferior methods of connecting cables. Be happy
> that your
> batteries come with the best type of terminals for an EV.
>
> The only 'handier' type of battery terminal, especially if one is
assembling
> a high
> voltage racing pack, is the flush mounted battery terminals with female
> treaded holes in
> brass that come with Hawkers. They allow one to stack batteries side by
side
> and connect
> them together with stubby flat copper bus bars. The flush mount Hawker
> terminals take some
> getting used to, as they don't look like they can conduct BIG amps...but
> they can and do.
> In all my years of abusing Hawkers and pulling huge currents out of them,
> I've never, ever
> had a terminal failure of any kind.
>
> As I'm currently working on swapping out my now 5 year old pack of 13
Optima
> YTs for a
> higher voltage string of 17 Exide Orbitals, I am pleased to report that
> their automotive
> style terminals have never failed, never gotten loose, never ever arced or
> melted. Kudos
> to Optima for making such a good battery, too, as these have never oozed
or
> leaked in any
> way, and the gold plated car stereo type connectors still look as new, not
a
> spec of
> corrosion anywhere. It sure makes my reconversion project easy, not having
> to clean up
> anything in the battery areas. You disconnect a terminal, and there's no
> green fuzzy
> stuff, no wetness to deal with, no half-disolved bolts...just a perfect
> looking terminal
> setup after 5 years of service. Lift that battery up, and a clean
stainless
> steel battery
> tray greets your eye, pretty much clean enough to eat your lunch off of!
All
> batteries
> should be this nice.
>
> See Ya.......John Wayland
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, What a novel idea! Not only does insulating my Optimas with Styrofoam
beads sound doable, it sounds fun. That alone makes me want to try it.
I'll give this one some thought because the concept is 'seasonally
applicable'. For the warmer summer season I would need to vacuum the beads
out to allow cooling air to circulate. Still, you get high points for
sharing this suggestion.
--
Knowledge is power. Power=Amps
(I know, it's corny, but you can't fault me for tryin')
--
Thanks, RR
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 4:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: My project and question
Richard Rau wrote:
> I live in the Willamette Valley south of Portland Oregon. Fairly
> mild climate. A hot day in summer is 90F and there are few days
> in winter that stay in the 30's... Still, insulating and heating
> the batteries has some appeal. That would mean a lot of additional
> work as my batteries will be in 5 locations. Once again, I am
> weighing the required work hours to the performance benefits.
Optimas have an odd shape, so insulating them can be interesting. One
idea is to take advantage of their 6-pack cylindrical shape. Put them in
your battery box, then pour in loose styrafoam beads. Styrafoam is a
good insulator, weighs almost nothing, and is unaffected by battery acid
in case of vents or leaks.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 04:22:27PM -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> The Honda EV+ I beleive was faster and weighed less. It also had about the
> same range. This Fuel cell vehicle was made from the EV+ body.
>
> 2005 HONDA FCX
> ON SALE: Now
> PRICE: Only available by lease to select customers
So ahhhhh; How much?
:)
> POWERTRAIN: 107-hp, 201-lb-ft AC synchronous electric motor; fwd
> (electricity from 86-kW hydrogen fuel cell stack), direct drive
Anyway I can get this bad boy without the fuel cell option?
> CURB WEIGHT: 3680 lbs
> 0 to 60 MPH: 11 seconds (est.)
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As you may be able to see, I'm wearing my tinfoil hat, but... does
this sound at all familiar? "Only available by lease to select
customers"?
...anyone want to lay odds that by 2009 they're recalling and
'recycling' them, with no plans for mass production, citing 'lack of
interest from the public'? Of course, by then we'll have working
laboratory demos of those swanky new unobtanium hyperreactors that
will be much better than fuel cells when we finish researching them
"in 5 to 10 years".
On 5/13/05, Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 04:22:27PM -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > The Honda EV+ I beleive was faster and weighed less. It also had about the
> > same range. This Fuel cell vehicle was made from the EV+ body.
> >
> > 2005 HONDA FCX
> > ON SALE: Now
> > PRICE: Only available by lease to select customers
>
> So ahhhhh; How much?
>
> :)
>
> > POWERTRAIN: 107-hp, 201-lb-ft AC synchronous electric motor; fwd
> > (electricity from 86-kW hydrogen fuel cell stack), direct drive
>
> Anyway I can get this bad boy without the fuel cell option?
>
> > CURB WEIGHT: 3680 lbs
> > 0 to 60 MPH: 11 seconds (est.)
>
>
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Would this design work if scaled up for motorcycle sized wheels?
> http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/2005/050428.Shim.bike.html
It strikes me as style over engineering -- something that looks good,
but wouldn't work very well.
The stress levels on the non-vertical wheels would be quite high. They
made this even worse with 2-spoke wheels (for style, I suspect). As a
parent, I'd worry about legs or sticks being stuck thru the wheels while
in motion causing a really nasty accident.
They complicated the drive train. Now you have two wheels to drive, and
you have to allow for different wheel speeds when turning. You can't use
a chain, because the wheels tip out of alignment with the crank.
Since it always has 3 wheels, it isn't really teaching the child to
balance properly for a real 2-wheel bike.
If I were to tackle this problem, I'd try a recumbent design where the
child is much closer to to ground so falls were less dangerous. Use very
wide round tires, so it mostly balances by itself.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
> > Would this design work if scaled up for motorcycle sized wheels?
> > http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/2005/050428.Shim.bike.html
>
> It strikes me as style over engineering -- something that looks good,
> but wouldn't work very well.
>
> The stress levels on the non-vertical wheels would be quite high. They
> made this even worse with 2-spoke wheels (for style, I suspect). As a
> parent, I'd worry about legs or sticks being stuck thru the wheels while
> in motion causing a really nasty accident.
>
> They complicated the drive train. Now you have two wheels to drive, and
> you have to allow for different wheel speeds when turning. You can't use
> a chain, because the wheels tip out of alignment with the crank.
>
> Since it always has 3 wheels, it isn't really teaching the child to
> balance properly for a real 2-wheel bike.
>
> If I were to tackle this problem, I'd try a recumbent design where the
> child is much closer to to ground so falls were less dangerous. Use very
> wide round tires, so it mostly balances by itself.
>
Well, I was thinking about normal wheels in back of a nice little enclosed
motorcycle's teardrop body so it can stand on its own, but all your points seem
valid enough to drop that idea!
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Optimas have an odd shape, so insulating them can be interesting. One
idea is to take advantage of their 6-pack cylindrical shape. Put them in
your battery box, then pour in loose styrafoam beads. Styrafoam is a
good insulator, weighs almost nothing, and is unaffected by battery acid
in case of vents or leaks.
You mean like the stuff found in bean bag chairs?
--
The Electric Motorcycle Portal
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
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--- Begin Message ---
Garret,
Well, that answers the question I had about how you where doing with
it. Maybe you just need a vacation from it? I did with my project.
For the low speed wobble I wonder if your batteries are too low in
the frame based on the photos you posted on electricmotorcycles.net.
If you lived near me Garret, we'd hook you up.
Here's a question for the group. You unwashed cagers can buy low
resistance tires but where or how could one lower the rolling
resistance on an EM? In the cycle world sticky rules the roost.
It is a motorcycle built on a Yamaha FJ1100 frame. I have it going and
registered.
It still needs the rolling resistance optimized, probably repacking the
bearings. There is a bit of low speed wobble and I have a damper I would
like to mount.
Paint would be good.
Trace down a wiring problem with the blinkers.
Wire front break light.
Make better battery tie down solution.
Maybe a motor swap for a bigger one I have.
--
The Electric Motorcycle Portal
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
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I just got my new motor installed in my S-10 (I also have a tracker, which I
might be selling soon)
Any tips on breaking in the new motor?
Thanks in advance.
Joe
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--- Begin Message ---
This is no more "For Sale" then the all-electric EV+ was. Lease means that you
can pay to drive it now, but doesn't mean you own it. If you do anything to
void the lease, it does back to Honda. "For Sale" should mean full-ownership,
like the RAV4 EV.
-Ed
--- On Thu 05/12, Lawrence Rhodes < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:22:27 -0700
Subject: 2005 HONDA FCX
2005 HONDA FCX
ON SALE: Now
PRICE: Only available by lease to select customers
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Tim,
I have totally enclosed fiberglass battery boxes, which has a 2 inch PVC pipe
inlet that goes down below the car into the outside air. The end is cut at a
45 degree angle facing forward or use a 45 or 90 degree elbow.
For a filter, I stuff this green plastic like filter material into it made my
3-M for swamp coolers.
This inlet pipe goes into one corner in the rear of the battery box. The
outlet pipe exist at the corner in the front so air flow is going diagonal
across the battery box.
This outlet pipe is also 2 inch pvc pipe. I have 90 degree 2 inch elbows with
a chase nipple connection that is glue to the boxes. The outlet pipe is a
flexible 2 inch pvc pipe, that is as heavy as a standard 2 inch pvc pipe,
except it is spirral cut and the spaces have been fill with a flexible compound
that looks like silicone rubber. You should be able to buy this or may have to
order it from suppliers that sell pump hoses.
DO NOT USE THIS THIN DRYER OR VACUUM CLEANER HOSE. THE BATTERY FUMES WILL
DESTROY IT!!
In this outlet hose, I have a all plastic fan with plastic blades with no
expose wires. I used a square box fan with a 50 CFM rating. I bolt on lexon
glass on both sides of this fan with a gasket and adapt a 2 inch pvc pipe
adapter to it.
I used the fan only during battery charging, they are 120 volt type. Could be
12 volt type and could run them while the car is moving and charging.
>From the fan, I have more flexible PVC hose that 90 degrees and connects to a
>2 inch pvc pipe that runs down below the car. A 45 degree angle cut in this
>pipe faces backward which the forward moving of the car performs a vacuum on
>this pipe, while the inlet pipe is forcing air into it. You could put a bell
>reducer on the inlet pipe, if you think you want a bigger funnel type inlet.
All the expose pipes below the EV now can be painted with plastic paint, like
Krylon Fusion plastic paint.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: TiM M<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV-List-Post<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:52 PM
Subject: Battery box venting
I'm building new battery boxes for my lead acid cells.
I was planning on having vent fans that run off the
charging voltage. Do I need to have the ventilation
fans run while driving as well? I'm in Southern
California and the temperature does get up there in
the summer for a month or two. Will hot batteries
shorten the life span of lead acid cells?
TiM
Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html<http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html>
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Hi,
I've never used fans for 30 years with floodies and haven't had any
problems. My boxes aren't airtight of course, just aluminum hatch lids with
some gapping since their in the erector set format using 1.5" steel angle
from Lowe's or Home Depot to make the battery boxes underneath the vehicle
(96' Geo Tracker with 20batts). I the drivers side window open in the
enclosed garage. My garage is detached from the house for cheaper fire
insurance. Sometimes when they get older near 10k miles after a year (near
replacement) and I equalize more, they stink up the garage and I open the
door.
The only problem I had (not from H2) was using a non-PFC charger which
smoked some of the outlets/connectors. PFC is definitely a good thing.
have a nice day, Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: My project and question
> Richard Rau wrote:
> > '92 Honda VX Hatchback, 5spd stock trans.
> > WarP 9" motor
> > Optima Batts. 13ea. of the larger #31's=156V
> > PFC-20B Manzanita Micro charger
> > Rudman Regs.
> >
> > Here is my question - ACTIVE BATTERY BOX VENTILATION?
>
> Yes, they are sealed AGMs, so they don't normally leak or vent. However,
> in the life of the batteries it is virtually guaranteed that at least
> some of them WILL leak acid, and vent hydrogen. These are common failure
> modes, so the odds are that it WILL happen to you.
>
> If your battery box is totally closed and not ventilated, then the
> leaked acid won't dry out. It usually leaks around the posts, where it
> slowly rots away the terminals and wires. It also causes leakage current
> paths, which speed up the self-discharge of the battery, and creates
> ground faults that will trip your GFCI and prevent chargng. If you can
> periodically inspect and clean the batteries, you can prevent the acid
> from causing these failures.
>
> Any battery that ever gets moderately overcharged will vent. This
> becomes more likely the older the batteries get. It can also happen if
> the charger is mis-adjusted, or a regulator fails, or a wire falls off
> somewhere so the charger doesn't know a regulator is working. They can
> also vent if you reverse a cell, such as from trying to drive too far on
> a charge. In a closed non-vented battery box, the hydrogen is trapped.
> There's quite a lot of volume inside the box, which means room for quite
> a bit of hydrogen. If/when it ever ignites (from a loose connection
> inside the battery box, for example), KABOOM!
>
> Therefore, I think it is mandatory to provide some means of venting the
> battery box. It doesn't have to be forced-air ventilation with a big
> fan, as used with flooded batteries. But at least provide vents in two
> corners so air can circulate. Screen them so bugs and mice can't get in.
> Position them so water won't get in, and with one of them low so any
> water that does get in will have a path to drain out. Position one vent
> high; hydrogen is very light, and will rise and escape very quickly at
> the highest point even without a fan.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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