EV Digest 4367
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 12v gell cell optima/excide best price online????
by Travis Raybold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) South San Francisco Costco charging
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: South San Francisco Costco charging
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: AC Ampmeter?
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: AC Ampmeter?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Charger Cords (was Re: South San Francisco Costco charging)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Motor Temp (was Re: An update regarding my JeepEV)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motor Temp (was Re: An update regarding my JeepEV)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) DC-DC Converters
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Triumph Spitfire and GT6 electric conversions
by Lance Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: DC-DC Converters
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Heat and Charge (Cogeneration?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Heat and Charge (Cogeneration?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: DC-DC Converters
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Motor Temp (was Re: An update regarding my JeepEV)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Heat and Charge (Cogeneration?)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: DC-DC Converters
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: DC-DC Converters
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: DC-DC Converters
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: DC-DC Converters
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) TdS Report #41: Press Release - Revised TdS Monte Carlo Rally Results
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) S-10 reconversion
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
a group of us got together (a year or two ago) and ordered 100 or so,
and bargained around with several local shops and ended up paying around
$109 (delivered to my house) or so for yellows... large orders
definitely give you some bargaining room.
good luck,
--travis
darren wrote:
Seems like a good place to ask about a good battery for my truck
red or yellow tops best price you guys know of.
I've seen $90 on reds
$130 on yellows
Thank You
................................
www.12voltguy.com
SeaBass44/~Darren
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The message below was sent offline by a EV listr, but I am
responding to it online as my answers may benefit others.
I have details about my Blazer and its charging abilities on
http://brucedp.150m.com/blazer/
My Blazer is a conversion but I am not stuck with an old 110 VAC
light
dimmer charger. Oh no. I have several chargers onboard with their
outputs connected in parallel across the whole pack (each one is
set to charge the pack by itself).
I have
-two 110 VAC Zivan K2 chargers,
-two 220 VAC Zivan K2 chargers,
-a Zivan NG5, and now
-a PFC-30 charger.
This means I can power up one or many for a slow to very fast
charge, depending on how much power that is available. I have two
separate sets internal charging cabling for a high charging current
capability.
The highest charging current I have put into my pack was over 100
amps DC at 150 VAC pack voltage with all my chargers on, connected
to two 110 VAC 20 amp 5-20 outlets, and three 50 amp 14-50 outlets.
At that high a charge current, the pack reaches 60% charged in 15
minutes and I spend the next 15 minutes, unplugging chargers that
aren't needed and coiling up their cords.
After a half hour, the pack is 80% charged and it is time to unplug
and go. I have found I do not need to wait around for a finishing
charge each time I plug in. Only once a day, on long trips to
balance the pack.
So to address your comments below, no I am not in need of a 110 VAC
outlet. Not when I can plug into the AVCON and charge 6 times
faster.
I recommend that EV'rs that have access to public AVCONs get a PFC
charger and an AVCON adaptor. Add this charging ability to your
conversion, and run with the big dogs just like a production EV.
If you are in the SF area, The three closest EAA chapters near you:
SAN FRANCISCO Electric Vehicle Association
Web Site: http://www.sfeva.org
Contact: Sherry Boschert, 415-681-7716
Mailing: 1484 16th Ave, San Francisco, Ca 94122-3510,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Meetings: 1st Sat./month, 11am to 1pm
Location: Site alternates. Check www.sfeva.org
SILICON VALLEY EAA
Web site: http://eaasv.org
Jerry Pohorsky, [EMAIL PROTECTED] , (408) 464-0711
Mailing: 1691 Berna Street, Santa Clara, CA 95050
Meetings: 3rd Saturday/month, 10am
Location: Bldg 20A Auditorium, hp.com 3000 Hanover St., Palo Alto,
CA
EAST (SF) BAY EAA
Web Site: http://geocities.com/ebeaa
Contact: Ed Thorpe 510-864-0662 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mailing: 2 Smith Ct., Alameda, CA 94502-7786, USA
Meetings: 4th Sat./month, 10:00 am.
Location: Alameda First Baptist Church, 1515 Santa Clara Ave,
Alameda, CA
More chapters at http://eaaev.org
- Bruce
-
Saw your post about SF costco (for jury duty) outside chargers.
The
chargers at Costco are for newer vehicles with no plain 110 hookups
or 220 hookups (I'm not sure what type of charging system you
have).
I talked to a supervisor at costco , and he said that if anyone
wants to charge at costco that he would also allow people to charge
from a 110 hookup at the tire shop around the corner. I don't know
if this is relivate to your charging needs but it was good for me
to
know I could still charge there. ( I have a 120 pack truck that has
to be plugged into a 110) hopefully this is information you can
use.
P.S. where are the monthly meetings posted or are there any?
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce,
I am wonder if what I have done with my PFC-30 would eliminate the need for
so many chargers.
I have a 4 conductor plug on the car (typical 220V with 100V split). When
at home, I use my heavy cable plugged into the 220V dryer outlet. When
"around town" and want to borrow electricity (not sure how I am going to pay
it back yet...), I carry a smaller 110V cable. I have a permanent ammeter
connected so I can use the current adjustment knob on the PFC-30 to limit
current (for 110V) or open it up (when at home with the 220V). I also am
wiring in a GFCI breaker in the car to ensure safety. And finally, I have a
30A switch to flip from 110V to 220V.
So if I want to opportunity charge, I use the 110V cable, flip the switch to
110V (basically connecting 110V to the PFC-30 AC input), and then adjust the
knob for 10-15 amps at 110V.
If I am at home, I use the heavy cable, flip the switch to 220V AC input and
turn the current up high.
Do you ever use more than one charger at once to get a real fast charge?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of bruce parmenter
Sent: May 17, 2005 3:43 PM
To: evlist
Subject: South San Francisco Costco charging
The message below was sent offline by a EV listr, but I am responding to it
online as my answers may benefit others.
I have details about my Blazer and its charging abilities on
http://brucedp.150m.com/blazer/
My Blazer is a conversion but I am not stuck with an old 110 VAC
light
dimmer charger. Oh no. I have several chargers onboard with their
outputs connected in parallel across the whole pack (each one is
set to charge the pack by itself).
I have
-two 110 VAC Zivan K2 chargers,
-two 220 VAC Zivan K2 chargers,
-a Zivan NG5, and now
-a PFC-30 charger.
This means I can power up one or many for a slow to very fast
charge, depending on how much power that is available. I have two
separate sets internal charging cabling for a high charging current
capability.
The highest charging current I have put into my pack was over 100
amps DC at 150 VAC pack voltage with all my chargers on, connected
to two 110 VAC 20 amp 5-20 outlets, and three 50 amp 14-50 outlets.
At that high a charge current, the pack reaches 60% charged in 15
minutes and I spend the next 15 minutes, unplugging chargers that
aren't needed and coiling up their cords.
After a half hour, the pack is 80% charged and it is time to unplug
and go. I have found I do not need to wait around for a finishing
charge each time I plug in. Only once a day, on long trips to
balance the pack.
So to address your comments below, no I am not in need of a 110 VAC
outlet. Not when I can plug into the AVCON and charge 6 times
faster.
I recommend that EV'rs that have access to public AVCONs get a PFC
charger and an AVCON adaptor. Add this charging ability to your
conversion, and run with the big dogs just like a production EV.
If you are in the SF area, The three closest EAA chapters near you:
SAN FRANCISCO Electric Vehicle Association
Web Site: http://www.sfeva.org
Contact: Sherry Boschert, 415-681-7716
Mailing: 1484 16th Ave, San Francisco, Ca 94122-3510,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Meetings: 1st Sat./month, 11am to 1pm
Location: Site alternates. Check www.sfeva.org
SILICON VALLEY EAA
Web site: http://eaasv.org
Jerry Pohorsky, [EMAIL PROTECTED] , (408) 464-0711
Mailing: 1691 Berna Street, Santa Clara, CA 95050
Meetings: 3rd Saturday/month, 10am
Location: Bldg 20A Auditorium, hp.com 3000 Hanover St., Palo Alto,
CA
EAST (SF) BAY EAA
Web Site: http://geocities.com/ebeaa
Contact: Ed Thorpe 510-864-0662 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mailing: 2 Smith Ct., Alameda, CA 94502-7786, USA
Meetings: 4th Sat./month, 10:00 am.
Location: Alameda First Baptist Church, 1515 Santa Clara Ave,
Alameda, CA
More chapters at http://eaaev.org
- Bruce
-
Saw your post about SF costco (for jury duty) outside chargers.
The
chargers at Costco are for newer vehicles with no plain 110 hookups
or 220 hookups (I'm not sure what type of charging system you
have).
I talked to a supervisor at costco , and he said that if anyone
wants to charge at costco that he would also allow people to charge
from a 110 hookup at the tire shop around the corner. I don't know
if this is relivate to your charging needs but it was good for me
to
know I could still charge there. ( I have a 120 pack truck that has
to be plugged into a 110) hopefully this is information you can
use.
P.S. where are the monthly meetings posted or are there any?
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes it will because the bridge is in series with the line and the meter
is simply a series load which happens to be rectified first. It would be
best if Schottky diodes were to be used as these have approx half the
voltage drop of normal diodes. As Lee points out the instrument will
read average current but a normal AC Ammeter reads RMS. RMS is .707Ipk
and Av is .637Ipk for a sinusoidal wave so to get RMS you will need to X
reading by 1.11
However in DC power supplies the current is rarely sinusoidal so only
the average value can be trusted.
David Sharpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Tuesday, 17 May 2005 11:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AC Ampmeter?
> I have a DC Ampmeter with build-in shunt (good for 25A).
> Is there any not-too-dangerous or wildly inaccurate way to use this
for
> AC?
> I was thinking of putting a bridge rectifier in the line, with the
Ammeter
> on the DC side of the bridge.
> Will this work? How far off will the reading be?
>
Hmm, forward voltage drop on a typical diode is about 0.6V, full scale
deflection on a typical meter/shunt is 0.05V (50 mv).
Since the full scale reading isn't enough to get the diode to start
conducting, my guess is that it won't work.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, I was assuming the intent was to put the shunt in series with the
load and rectify the output from the shunt.
My bad.
> Yes it will because the bridge is in series with the line and the meter
> is simply a series load which happens to be rectified first. It would be
> best if Schottky diodes were to be used as these have approx half the
> voltage drop of normal diodes. As Lee points out the instrument will
> read average current but a normal AC Ammeter reads RMS. RMS is .707Ipk
> and Av is .637Ipk for a sinusoidal wave so to get RMS you will need to X
> reading by 1.11
> However in DC power supplies the current is rarely sinusoidal so only
> the average value can be trusted.
> David Sharpe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Tuesday, 17 May 2005 11:33 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: AC Ampmeter?
>
>> I have a DC Ampmeter with build-in shunt (good for 25A).
>> Is there any not-too-dangerous or wildly inaccurate way to use this
> for
>> AC?
>> I was thinking of putting a bridge rectifier in the line, with the
> Ammeter
>> on the DC side of the bridge.
>> Will this work? How far off will the reading be?
>>
>
> Hmm, forward voltage drop on a typical diode is about 0.6V, full scale
> deflection on a typical meter/shunt is 0.05V (50 mv).
>
> Since the full scale reading isn't enough to get the diode to start
> conducting, my guess is that it won't work.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Don Cameron wrote:
I have a 4 conductor plug on the car (typical 220V with 100V split). When
at home, I use my heavy cable plugged into the 220V dryer outlet. When
"around town" and want to borrow electricity, I carry a smaller 110V cable.
> -snip - And finally, I have a 30A switch to flip from 110V to 220V.
Don, do you have a schematic of your charger's wiring? I'm curious as to
why you'd need to use a switch to flip between 120 and 240 volts?
On my Jeep I have a similar setup with my charger to be able to use 120
or 240-volt outlets. Basically, my charger terminates into a male NEMA
L6-30 twist-lock. I then have two extension cords (25' and 70') which
are also terminated with NEMA L6-30 twist locks on both ends. Then at
the end I have three short cables which each have an L6-30 on one end
and different plugs on the other (NEMA 14-30/14-50, 5-15, 10-30). I
don't need a switch of any kind for the different voltages because the
PFC charger's 3 input wires are properly connected to either (120x,
120y, Ground) or (120x, Neutral, Ground) depending on which adapter plug
I am using.
More info on my Charger page:
http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/convpgs/charger.php
P.S.: As a side note while we're dealing with all these NEMA outlet/plug
designations; here are two great NEMA reference charts:
http://www.stayonline.com/reference/nema_straight_blade.asp
http://www.stayonline.com/reference/nema_twistlock.asp
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee (and all),
Sorry for my slow response; I just moved DriveEV.com to a new web host
and the DNS propagation for my e-mail accounts didn't go so smoothly.
:-/ Anyways....
You wrote:
Is it an Advanced DC motor? Many of them have a switch buried in the
field winding. If you see two small wires coming out the side, that's
it. This switch will close if the winding gets too hot.
Yes, it is an ADC motor, and yes it has the built in temp. sensor. I
never really bothered to hook it up because when I bought the motor from
my supplier I was told that (paraphrasing:) "that switch does no good.
By the time it would ever close, the motor would pretty much be fried
already."
Are you depending entirely on the motor's internal fan for cooling?
Yes.
If so, remember that this fan only works at high rpm. "Flooring it" in 3rd
gear forces the motor to draw maximum current at minimum rpm, so it
isn't getting enough cooling. You need to shift to keep motor rpm HIGH
on an EV; not low like an ICE!
I don't normally do things like floor it in 3rd from a dead stop or low
RPM. I've only done that a few times when trying to see just how much
"go" I could get out of my Jeep. I always try to start in 1st and take
it up to ~4800 RPM before up-shifting.
If you insist on driving at high current and low rpm
No, I certainly don't insist on doing this, in fact, I try to
consciously avoid doing so! However, even when I drive the EV
"correctly", the motor still gets HOT (especially on longer trips).
There is no doubt in my mind that this is yet another side effect of my
transmission problem, which is putting a drag on my EV fun (literally).
But until I have a chance to do a tranny swap, I want to make sure I'm
not doing bad things to my motor.
> then you'll need to add an external blower to cool the motor.
Does anyone have pictures/prices for blower fans which are right for the
job? Even if I find that my motor stops getting real hot after I've
swapped transmissions, I'd consider adding a fan(s) anyways to help
ensure my motor lasts.
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Seth Allen wrote:
I have to say that seen class F (150C) insulation run above rated temp
for days without a failure. When the air exiting the motor is above
150C (about 300F), it smells a lot. So a little stink probably isn't
too bad for the insulation. What is happenning to the commutator, I
don't know. That may be different. I was working on motors without
commutators.
Thanks for the info. I'm hoping the commutator is better off, as that
end of the motor has a lot of vents in it, and some air can flow freely
across the commutator/ brush assemblies. The coils, on the other hand
are enclosed deeper in the case, so I'd guess they get hotter quicker?
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First of all, this may be somewhat of a rehash of a thread that ran a couple
of months ago. Sorry I didn't save it.
I'm trying to locate a DC-DC Converter that can handle an input voltage of
180V (15ea. Optima's)
The system that I am putting together now is 156V, and I recently found
space for two more batteries, so I am considering adding them to help my
range.
The Zivan NG1 will handle up to 168V (pack voltage)
DCP may have had one that could handle higher levels, but they are now
history :-(
How about Todd? I did a brief search and found nothing definitive. Are
they still in business?
Anyone else?
Before I settle on a 168V pack, I want to know if there is an option out
there. Would it be insane to do a partial pack tap in a system using AGM's
and Rutman Regs. Optimas are balance-sensitive enough as is. Drawing
watts from less than the full pack may be a nasty thing to do. (Note- my
accessory loads will include a ceramic heater, mid-level audio system,
normal lighting).
I look forward to your comments,
Richard Rau
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd like to contact any listers who have Triumph Spitfire or GT6 electric
conversion cars. I'd like to convert a Spitfire myself. please contact me.
thank you
lance Smith, Bay Area, Ca.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Follow up - I just found that Azure(Solectria) sells the #DCDC750BC-12
BUT, it's input voltage range is 200V-400V. I may have designed myself
into a corner.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Rau
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 8:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: DC-DC Converters
First of all, this may be somewhat of a rehash of a thread that ran a couple
of months ago. Sorry I didn't save it.
I'm trying to locate a DC-DC Converter that can handle an input voltage of
180V (15ea. Optima's)
The system that I am putting together now is 156V, and I recently found
space for two more batteries, so I am considering adding them to help my
range.
The Zivan NG1 will handle up to 168V (pack voltage)
DCP may have had one that could handle higher levels, but they are now
history :-(
How about Todd? I did a brief search and found nothing definitive. Are
they still in business?
Anyone else?
Before I settle on a 168V pack, I want to know if there is an option out
there. Would it be insane to do a partial pack tap in a system using AGM's
and Rutman Regs. Optimas are balance-sensitive enough as is. Drawing
watts from less than the full pack may be a nasty thing to do. (Note- my
accessory loads will include a ceramic heater, mid-level audio system,
normal lighting).
I look forward to your comments,
Richard Rau
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
>
> I've been thinking about an LC (or possibly pi) filter after the bridge
> anyway. Can someone suggest good values for the inductor and capacitor for
> an LC filter, given the 150V and 60A max?
When you are charging at full current, the battery won't be (had better
NOT be!) near fully charged. At this time, you don't need any filtering,
because the peak voltage won't be anywhere near the max voltage.
As the battery charges, its voltage rises. But your charging current
will also fall. Worst-case with lead-acid is somewhere around 80%
charged, when the voltage and current are both high at once. (I don't
know where the worst-case point will be with LiIons -- you may have to
find it experimentally.)
Ok; so now the trick is to have enough filtering to keep the peak
voltage below the max limit despite the ripple voltage. Since your
charger won't be a max current when it is at max voltage, the filter
parts can be much smaller.
As a rule, it is cheaper to use capacitors for filtering than inductors.
However, inductors (almost) never fail or wear out; capacitors do. You
can use either (or both) to do your filtering. There are design
nomographs and equations in any basic text on simple power supply design
published in the last 50-100 years for picking your values.
I would assume that your charging current at 150vdc is not the full 60
amps, but more like 6 amps. Next, you need to know what the ripple
voltage is *without* any filter at this voltage and current. For the
sake of argument, let's say you want 150v max, and the charger actually
measures 149v average, but is swinging from 148-150v (i.e. it has 2
volts peak-to-peak ripple at 6 amps).
Ok, what do we need to (for example) cut this ripple in half (i.e. to 1
volt peak-to-peak)?
1. Do it all with capacitance
I = C x dv/dt
6a = C x 1v/8msec (8 msec is the time of one half-cycle at 60 Hz)
C = 6a / (1v/0.008s)
C = 0.048 farads = 48,000 microfarads
2. Add a series inductor
The minimum inductance (in millihenries) needed is
L = V/I = 150v / 6a = 25 millihenries
A value smaller than this allows the current to go to zero in each
half-cycle, and so it is unused and less effective for part of each
cycle.
But the inductor greatly reduces the capacitance needed. For the same
2:1 reduction in ripple, the capacitor only needs to be
Xl = Xc
Xl = 2 pi f L = 6.28 x 120hz x 0.025h = 18.8 ohms
Xc = 1 / 2 pi f C
18.8 = 1 / (6.28 x 120hz x C)
C = 1 / (6.28 x 120hz x 18.8) = 70 microfarads
Quite a drastic improvement in the capacitor; but you'll find that a
25mh choke that can carry 60 amps at full load is every bit as big (or
bigger) than a 48,000 microfarad capacitor.
In practice, you can use values in between these extremes; a smaller
inductor and a bigger capacitor. Tradeoffs, tradeoffs...
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
>
> I wrote to ThunderSky and asked them if rectified AC charging was okay.
> Their reply is below. Do others of you interpret this the way I do, that
> rectified AC charging would be okay if I did only the bulk phase of the
> charging that way, then switched to DC for the final part of the charge?
> And that the only harm to the battery would be if I didn't fully charge it?
>
> "The constant current is better than a rectified AC wave for charging, and
> the battery can be charged fully. It is mainly used by the constant current
> of less than 0.3CA in order that the battery get one perfect performance and
> longer cycle life."
I think they are giving you a safe "lawyer's" answer. Since they aren't
paying for the charger (you are), then they prefer you use a 'perfect'
one with zero ripple.
I agree with your summary; you can use an unfiltered rectifier charger
in the early stages of a charge cycle, and only need to worry about
ripple as the battery aproaches full charge, where the ripple might
drive the instantaneous peak voltages over the cell's safe limits.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You need to specify the range of voltage you want it to operate.
Todds blow up at 200 VDC input. 15 optimas can reach 225 volts at end of
charge. This is a bad combination.
Todd Engineering Sales quit making the EV units several years ago.
A company called Ample Power
http://www.amplepower.com/products/chrg/index.html builds something very
similar. I talked to the applications engineer and he said their products
work on DC just like the Todds. You can call him at the number on the
website and discuss the present input operating range of their products.
You can tap the pack and then use Rudman Regulators but you will not like
how long it takes to bring them back into line with each charge. You will
probably lose patience and chronically undercharge the lower batteries after
a while. This is doable but you probably will not like the results.
Many of the DCDC converters that run from 200 to 400 VDC will run on less
voltage with a corresponding drop in current output. Some of them will drop
the output voltage with reduced input voltage (like the Todds) sometimes
causing a failure. You will need to discuss this with an applications
engineer who knows the product.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 8:46 PM
Subject: DC-DC Converters
> First of all, this may be somewhat of a rehash of a thread that ran a
couple
> of months ago. Sorry I didn't save it.
>
>
>
> I'm trying to locate a DC-DC Converter that can handle an input voltage of
> 180V (15ea. Optima's)
>
> The system that I am putting together now is 156V, and I recently found
> space for two more batteries, so I am considering adding them to help my
> range.
>
>
>
> The Zivan NG1 will handle up to 168V (pack voltage)
>
> DCP may have had one that could handle higher levels, but they are now
> history :-(
>
> How about Todd? I did a brief search and found nothing definitive. Are
> they still in business?
>
> Anyone else?
>
> Before I settle on a 168V pack, I want to know if there is an option out
> there. Would it be insane to do a partial pack tap in a system using
AGM's
> and Rutman Regs. Optimas are balance-sensitive enough as is. Drawing
> watts from less than the full pack may be a nasty thing to do. (Note- my
> accessory loads will include a ceramic heater, mid-level audio system,
> normal lighting).
>
>
>
> I look forward to your comments,
>
> Richard Rau
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try a bilge blower
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=125210
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=50052
I have used centrifugal blowers like
http://www.westmarine.com/images/list_dsp_blower.jpg and
http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=misc%2fsearchResults.jsp&BV_SessionID=@@@@1958345740.1116397107@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccckaddejgemgdhcgelceffdfgidgln.0&MID=9876
The advantage of some Black and Decker blowers is that they can be run off
pack voltage through a PWM speed control. I am not sure this one will do
that.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: Motor Temp (was Re: An update regarding my JeepEV)
> > then you'll need to add an external blower to cool the motor.
>
> Does anyone have pictures/prices for blower fans which are right for the
> job? Even if I find that my motor stops getting real hot after I've
> swapped transmissions, I'd consider adding a fan(s) anyways to help
> ensure my motor lasts.
>
> Thanks,
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the calculations, Lee. Here's how I'm thinking things would
work. Let me know if I've made any fundamental mistakes here:
For the sake of round numbers, we'll say that the pack is 100V when
discharged and 150V when charged.
I parallel enough heating elements to get the 60A RMS to start with. On a
220V line, there is initially 120V dropped across the heating elements and
100V across the cells.
As the cells charge with a rectifier but no filter, their voltage gradually
rises, approaching the 150V. When they're near the 150V, the drop across
the heating elements is 70V, so the current has decreased only to 35A, not
to 6A.
If the cells started out fairly balanced in their discharged state, they
should all reach 4.25V at close to the same time, but one of them will reach
4.25V first. When any cell reaches 4.25V, the BMS turns off a contactor or
some other switch to stop charging.
At that point, maybe the pack is 80% charged or so. If I were in a hurry, I
could drive away and use the pack, saving the balancing for another
go-round.
Or, I could hook up a small charger at this point and have it run at about
8A DC or so, letting the BMS take care of balancing things over a few hours.
Sound right so far?
Now if, in the above scenario, if I wanted to have DC instead of just
rectified AC when doing the 60A-35A part of the charge, would I in fact need
an inductor smaller than 25mH? For example:
L = V/I = 150v / 35a = 4.28 millihenries
Or would the calculation be different?
Also, am I correct in thinking that every 8msec (with no filter), there is
no current flowing in the circuit until the sine wave reaches more than the
battery pack voltage, then current rapidly increases? For example, if the
pack is at 110V, is there:
1) No current flowing for the first 4msec as the sine wave rises
2) Current that rises from 0A to 84A (60A * 1.4) in the next 4msec
3) Current that falls back from 84A to 0A in the next 4msec
4) No Current for the next 4msec as the sine wave falls back to 0V
5) Then repeat from step 1?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Rau wrote:
> I'm trying to locate a DC-DC Converter that can handle an input voltage of
> 180V
I might use one of these unless something else comes along:
http://www.powerstream.com/DC-HV.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Before I settle on a 168V pack, I want to know if there is an option out
there. Would it be insane to do a partial pack tap in a system using AGM's
and Rutman Regs. Optimas are balance-sensitive enough as is. Drawing
watts from less than the full pack may be a nasty thing to do. (Note- my
accessory loads will include a ceramic heater, mid-level audio system,
normal lighting).
Do you mean that the ceramic heater power ( usually 1000-3000 watts) will be
taken from the 12V accessory system? Usually the resistance cabin heater is
powered by the main pack ( at full pack voltage). At 12 volts, you would be
using 100 amps or more.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe Solectria offers a 100-200V input and a 150-250V input DC-DC.
Electro Automotive (who sells the stuff to non OEMs) could tell you, or
the Solectria/ Azure Dynamics website might tell you.
Seth
On May 17, 2005, at 11:46 PM, Richard Rau wrote:
First of all, this may be somewhat of a rehash of a thread that ran a
couple
of months ago. Sorry I didn't save it.
I'm trying to locate a DC-DC Converter that can handle an input
voltage of
180V (15ea. Optima's)
The system that I am putting together now is 156V, and I recently found
space for two more batteries, so I am considering adding them to help
my
range.
The Zivan NG1 will handle up to 168V (pack voltage)
DCP may have had one that could handle higher levels, but they are now
history :-(
How about Todd? I did a brief search and found nothing definitive.
Are
they still in business?
Anyone else?
Before I settle on a 168V pack, I want to know if there is an option
out
there. Would it be insane to do a partial pack tap in a system using
AGM's
and Rutman Regs. Optimas are balance-sensitive enough as is. Drawing
watts from less than the full pack may be a nasty thing to do. (Note-
my
accessory loads will include a ceramic heater, mid-level audio system,
normal lighting).
I look forward to your comments,
Richard Rau
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Vicor also makes a 100-375V input DC-DC Gen I module. Which is pretty
future-proof.
Seth
On May 18, 2005, at 2:55 AM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
Richard Rau wrote:
I'm trying to locate a DC-DC Converter that can handle an input
voltage of
180V
I might use one of these unless something else comes along:
http://www.powerstream.com/DC-HV.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #41: Press Release - Revised TdS Monte Carlo Rally Results
National 2005 Tour de Sol Revises
Results Of Monte Carlo-Style Rally
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Nancy Hazard [EMAIL PROTECTED] 413-774-6051 x18
James Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] 508-870-0042 x108
Greenfield, MA -- May 17, 2005 -- The National 2005 Tour de Sol has issued
revised results of the Monte Carlo-style Rally competition, held May 13-16 in
Saratoga Springs and Albany, NY. The top hybrid-vehicle winners include a
Honda Insight driven by Charles Sullivan of Hanover, NH, which averaged 81
miles per gallon, and a second Hybrid Insight driven by Mike Lewis of Portland,
ME, which averaged 79 MPG. They achieved the best results for production
vehicles in the Monte Carlo-style Rally, which required participants to drive
their vehicles at least 150 miles during the competition. While Sullivan got
slightly more miles per gallon than Lewis, the difference was too small to
determine precisely.
The top finishers in the biodiesel category of the Monte Carlo-style Rally were
a Volkswagen Passat driven by David Glynn of Westboro, MA, and Karl Roenig of
Clifton Park, NY, which averaged 77 MPG, and a Mercedes SMART car driven by
Hugo Marsolais of Saint-Jerome, Quebec, which averaged 75 MPG. While Glynn and
Roenig achieved a bit more miles per gallon than Marsolais, the refueling
process was too inaccurate to gauge exactly.
The most interesting overall vehicle was the novel ``plug-in'' hybrid
demonstrated by Valence Technology as well as Energy Control Systems
Engineering Inc. (doing business as EnergyCS LLC) in Monrovia, CA. This is a
modified Toyota Prius with a much larger battery pack than the normal Prius,
and charged with external grid power. On a 150-mile run, this vehicle achieved
nearly 102 MPG on the gasoline used, but also utilized 10 kilowatt-hours of
electricity required to charge the special lithium-ion batteries. When
computing the total energy used, including the grid power, the net effective
mileage was only 67 MPG, which is still highly commendable. Although this
vehicle would be relatively expensive to buy, if available today, due to extra
battery cost, plug-in hybrids may become a viable future technology.
This year, 41 teams entered the new Monte Carlo-style Rally. This competition
was created to offer advanced-vehicle owners the opportunity to demonstrate
what their vehicles (production-line or modified) can deliver as well as to
compete for up to $10,000 in prizes.
During the National 2005 Tour de Sol -- the 17th annual sustainable-energy and
transportation festival and competition -- over 60 hybrid, electric and biofuel
vehicles from throughout the U.S. and Canada demonstrated that we have the
technology today to power our transportation system with zero-oil consumption
and zero climate-change emissions. Each vehicle showed new ways to reduce our
dependence on foreign oil while reducing harmful pollutants.
Monte Carlo-style Rally & 100 MPG Challenge
To compete for the 100 MPG Challenge, entrants began at one of the 11 official
stating sites around the U.S. and Canada and were required to drive a minimum
of 500 miles to Stewart's Shops in Saratoga Springs, NY. Unfortunately, no
entrant achieved that goal this year. Other entrants traveled a minimum of 150
miles to Saratoga Springs, for a host of other prizes. Key Monte Carlo-style
Rally organizers are the Automotive Career Development Center in Worcester, MA,
and the Center for Technology Commercialization in Westboro, MA, with Stewart's
Shops and biodiesel supplier Environmental Alternatives in Brooklyn, NY,
providing the fuel for all the entries.
E-Bike and NEV Competition
The E-bike and NEV (neighborhood electric vehicle) competition was created last
year by RunAbout Cycles in Sunderland, MA. E-bike and NEV manufacturers,
distributors, entrepreneurs, hobbyists and students are invited to participate
in this two-day event. This year, over a dozen entrants went through technical
specification checks, displayed their vehicles and participated in a range
events of one, two or three hours.
Tour de Sol & Tour de Sol Championship
Over a half million consumers have visited the Tour de Sol since its creation
in 1989 by the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association and over 40 million
print-and electronic-media exposures accrue annually from the Tour. The Tour
de Sol provides a key platform for vehicle manufacturers, students and
entrepreneurs to demonstrate future designs and current products that aim to
reduce oil and carbon emissions to zero. The event provides news media the
opportunity to provide timely and topical updates on the status of sustainable
energy and mobility. This year, over a dozen teams participated in the Tour de
Sol Championship, which began in 1989. This event aims to inspire students and
businesses to design, build, showcase and use concept vehicles that push the
envelope and work toward the ultimate goal of the Tour de Sol.
Sponsors
The New York State Energy Research and Development Authority and the Center for
Technology Commercialization (CTC) are the event's Premier Sponsors. Key
Sponsors are the U.S. Department of Energy, the New York Power Authority,
Toyota Motor Corp., the New York State Department of Environmental
Conservation, New York State Parks, American Honda Motor Co., Environmental
Alternatives and the Federal Highway Administration.
Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
The Northeast Sustainable Energy Association, the nation's leading regional
education and advocacy association, is a not-for-profit 501(c)(3) organization.
NESEA aims to accelerate the deployment and use of renewable energy and energy
efficiency by producing major sustainable-energy events that inspire and
motivate large numbers of people to get involved and make a difference.
For more information on all of the winners in the National 2005 Tour de Sol,
visit www.TourDeSol.org or contact NESEA at 413.774.6051.
NOTE TO ALL MEDIA: All National 2005 Tour de Sol results as well as photos are
available upon request.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all
I just got a S-10 that was being reconverted by Mason in Phoenix, but he didn't
have enough time to finish it so he had to let it go.
It is a 96 S-10, that was owned by APS in Phoenix and used as a meter reader.
It was an Electicar AC conversion and never worked well at all. It has about
6000 miles only. Mason got it without the AC unit in it and started the
conversion. It has a 9" ADC motor linked to a 5 speed manual installed, a Todd
PC-40 amp (takes from a 140-180 V bat pack), a K&W BC-250 charger (110/220 VAC
input, 72-156 DCV output), an emeter with a RS232 port, all the necessary
meters, contactors, etc. The only thing I have to supply is the time to finish
installing everything, a controller, water pump for the controller, batteries
and cables.
I'm going to get a Zilla 1K controller.
Charger and DC/DC wise I am a little stymied. He was planning to put in a 144 V
system with T-125's and has the battery holders already made up, one up front
holding 6, one on either side of the drive shaft holding 6 each and the third
rear of the axle holding 6. I was planning to use the T-125 also in my
Mitsubishi, they have the highest watt density/lb of the flooded. But since I
want about an 80 mile trip, my spreadsheets that I have made up say that I
should use at least a 180 v pack, which means that I will have to upgrade the
charger and BC/BC.
Any thoughts?
Lee - I also want the battery balancer, what can we do? Can one be made up with
a charger incorporated for 30 T-125's?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
