EV Digest 4370
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Are these TDS Calculations RIGHT ???
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: S-10 reconversion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Heat and Charge (Cogeneration?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motor Temp (was Re: An update regarding my JeepEV)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Ebay sale on Buss Fuses 150 a 170vdc
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Cable crimping, allota other Stuff.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Thanks
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: DCDC Converter choice- flip a coin?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: "eBay hype" or innovation?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Madman & Plasma Boy do Earth Day
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Just to throw some more figures out for those that like this sort of thing.
Where I am in NY, for 50% hydro and 50% wind my power costs 13.5c/kwh delivered
to me, and gas is hovering around
$2.30, (but I have to go get it).
So at this moment a gallon is worth about 17kwh, where it really counts, i.e in
my checkbook..
So if I had an EV getting 2mpkwh. it would be equivalent to .. 34 mpg. Realize
however that an EV that gets 2mpkwh is
more than likely an S-10 type vehicle and 34 mpg is outstanding. However, this
figure does not include the
amortization of battery, which IS part (half or more depending on chemistry) of
an EV's fuel cost. So now I'm about
equal to gas in cost, but much much cleaner.
Speaking of amortization I have a spreadsheet that indicates that Lithium might
be cheapest and lead(spiral-wound)
most expensive, who'd a thunk it. (Unless you happen to have some really cheap
NiCads)
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Andrea Bachus Kohler
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 12:23 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Are these TDS Calculations RIGHT ???
>
> For the TdS events, they used 33kWh = 1 gallon equivalent.
> For the Monte Carlo event, they used 13.5 kWh = 1 gallon equivalent.
>
> I too questioned this difference only to be told that the lower number took
> into account, among other things, transmission losses. I claimed that one
> gallon of gasoline from the pump does not include any "transmission
> (transportation) losses", so why should electricity get docked?
>
> It is being reviewed. I too, like Roger, expected the outcome to be more
> like 85 mpg equivalent. However you want to cut it, the car did an amazing
> job! Had the event only been 100 miles long, we would have gotten 120 mpg
> (of gas used).
>
> Marc Kohler
> navigator of the Valence Plug In Hybrid
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 2:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Are these TDS Calculations RIGHT ???
>
>
>> Steven Lough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> "On a 150-mile run, this vehicle achieved nearly 102 MPG
>>> on the gasoline used, but also utilized 10 kilowatt-hours
>>> of electricity required to charge the special lithium-ion
>>> batteries. When computing the total energy used, including
>>> the grid power, the net effective mileage was only 67 MPG,
>>> which is still highly commendable."
>>>
>>> YOU NUMBER CRUNCHERS OUT THERE... ARE THOSE CALCULATIONS CORRECT ?
>>> WOULD 10 KWH BE THE SAME AS X GALONS OF GAS ??? AND LOWER THE
>>> MPG FROM 102 TO 67 FOR A 150 MILE TRIP ???
>>
>>>From the EPA website <http://www.epa.gov/orcdizux/rfgecon.htm>
>> the energy content of a US gallon of gasoline is 113,000-117,000 BTU
>> during the summer.
>>
>> According to this handy-dandy energy units convertor:
>>
>> <http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/ncrick/converters/energy.html>
>>
>> this equates to 33.117-34.289kWh/gallon.
>>
>> So, 10kWh of electricity is equivalent to 0.29-0.30 gallons of gasoline.
>>
>> If the EnergyCS Prius achieved 102mpg on a 150mi run, this suggests it
>> consumed 1.47 gallons of gasoline. So, including the 0.29-0.30 gallon
>> gasoline equivalent of the 10kWh of electricity consumed results in 1.77
>> gallons of gas for 150mi travelled or 84.7mpg.
>>
>> I would therefore conclude that either the TdS math is incorrect or it
>> is not considering the gasoline equivalent of the electrical energy
>> consumed by the vehicle, but rather the gasoline equivalent of the
>> energy used to produce the electrical energy consumed.
>>
>> For 67mpg over a 150mi trip, the TdS must figure on the equivalent of
>> 2.239 gallons of gas, which means they are equating the 10kWh of
>> electricity to about 0.769 gallons of gas: over 2x its actual energy
>> equivalent. This seems suspiciously like the TdS is figuring on a
>> generation efficiency in the high 30's of % and
>> transmission/distribution efficiency in the low 90's of %, for an
>> overall efficiency of about 39%.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Roger.
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
> It is a 96 S-10, that was owned by APS in Phoenix and used as a
> meter reader. It was an Electicar AC conversion and never worked
> well at all.
Yep! That sounds like U.S. Electricar all right! :-(
> Charger and DC/DC wise I am a little stymied. He was planning to
> put in a 144 V system with T-125's... But since I want about an
> 80 mile trip, my spreadsheets... say that I should use at least a
> 180 v pack, which means that I will have to upgrade the charger
> and DC/DC. Any thoughts?
Or, you could use the T-145 type battery to get a little more capacity,
and concentrate on weight, rolling resistance, and aerodynamic
improvements.
For a 180v system, you can use a switching power supply with PFC (Power
Factor Correction). The PFC front ends will work at anything from about
90-265 volts AC, which corresponds to 125-370 volts DC. But as discussed
before, it will have to be a supply that can deal with a battery as a
load; it must have current limiting, be adjustable up to 13.5-14.5vdc,
not shutdown if overloaded, be able to survive in an automotive
environment, etc.
For a charger, you could add a contactor in the center of the pack (as
well as at one or both ends). When these are open, they break the pack
into two 90-volt packs which can be charged in parallel by your present
BC-250 charger.
> Lee - I also want the battery balancer, what can we do? Can one
> be made up with a charger incorporated for 30 T-125's?
Sure; it just means you'll need four of the 8-relay boards. One of the
auxiliary relays will switch between 1-15 and 16-30. This actually works
out well anyway, considering you have four separate battery boxes -- put
one relay board in each box.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> Thanks for the calculations, Lee. Here's how I'm thinking things
> would work... we'll say that the pack is 100V when discharged and
> 150V when charged.
>
> I parallel enough heating elements to get the 60A RMS to start with.
> On a 220V line, there is initially 120V dropped across the heating
> elements and 100V across the cells.
>
> As the cells charge with a rectifier but no filter, their voltage
> gradually rises, approaching the 150V. When they're near the 150V,
> the drop across the heating elements is 70V, so the current has
> decreased only to 35A, not to 6A.
Approximately right, though this ignores that the 100V battery is DC and
the 220V is AC.
I assumed the current near full charge would drop to something like 6A
because I thought you'd be using 120vac, not 220vac.
> If the cells started out fairly balanced in their discharged state,
> they should all reach 4.25V at close to the same time, but one of
> them will reach 4.25V first. When any cell reaches 4.25V, the BMS
> turns off a contactor or some other switch to stop charging.
>
> At that point, maybe the pack is 80% charged or so. If I were in
> a hurry, I could drive away and use the pack, saving the balancing
> for another go-round.
Ok. Actually, if you pack was balanced at the last charge cycle, then
after a single discharge and recharge, the cells should still be pretty
close to balanced.
> Or, I could hook up a small charger at this point and have it run
> at about 8A DC or so, letting the BMS take care of balancing things
> over a few hours.
>
> Sound right so far?
Ok so far. You have the gist of it right; just minor corrections for
then non-ideal nature of the beast.
> if I wanted to have DC instead of just rectified AC when doing the
> 60A-35A part of the charge, would I in fact need an inductor smaller
> than 25mH? For example:
>
> L = V/I = 150v / 35a = 4.28 millihenries
Correct. That is the *minimum* inductance needed so the current just
barely keeps flowing for the full half-cycle. In other words, without
the inductor the current is a narrow, high pulse in the middle of each
AC cycle
_|_|_|_|_
With the minimum-value inductor, the current still ramps up and down,
but the peaks are much lower and the valleys just barely touch zero
/\/\/\/\
> Also, am I correct in thinking that every 8msec (with no filter),
> there is no current flowing in the circuit until the sine wave
> reaches more than the battery pack voltage, then current rapidly
> increases? For example, if the pack is at 110V, is there:
>
> 1) No current flowing for the first 4msec as the sine wave rises
> 2) Current that rises from 0A to 84A (60A * 1.4) in the next 4msec
> 3) Current that falls back from 84A to 0A in the next 4msec
> 4) No Current for the next 4msec as the sine wave falls back to 0V
> 5) Then repeat from step 1?
Yes; the numbers are different, but you have the gist of it correct. The
peak current is astoundingly high. If the average current is 60 amps,
the peak current is more like 240 amps!
With the minimum-value inductor, current flows continuously throughout
the cycle. To get 60 amps average, the minimum current barely touches
zero and the peak current barely reaches 120 amps.
Still larger values of inductance reduce the peak and raise the minumum.
To get 60 amps average, you could have 100 amps peak and 20 amps
minumum, for example (i.e. the current never goes to zero even during
the zero crossings. The inductor keeps the current "freewheeling" thru
the diodes of the bridge rectifier).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
> Yes, it is an ADC motor, and yes it has the built in temp. sensor.
> I never really bothered to hook it up because when I bought the
> motor from my supplier I was told that (paraphrasing:) "that switch
> does no good. By the time it would ever close, the motor would
> pretty much be fried already."
Well... kind of. The switch is in the field winding, and was chosen to
indicate a long slow overload -- for instance, a motor that has been
running over its ratings for half an hour. If you apply a very large,
very brief overload, the switch won't respond until you have already
fried the brushes or commutator, because they heat up much quicker.
But I'd hook the switch to an "idiot light" anyway. It will tell you if
you have been driving a long time in too high a gear.
> Does anyone have pictures/prices for blower fans which are right
> for the job? Even if I find that my motor stops getting real hot
> after I've swapped transmissions, I'd consider adding a fan(s)
> anyways to help ensure my motor lasts.
I've used marine bilge blowers, and automobile heater blower motors for
this application. You generally want to arrange them to blow air into
the motor (not use them to suck air out).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave, I put in several different searches with "EV" or "Electric Vehicle"
and have even put in "180VDC". I think these just came up on "electric
vehicle". Nothing special, just lots of different words or phrases. I'm
sure there are others out there with better search patterns.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Gnat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 11:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Ebay sale on Buss Fuses 150 a 170vdc
Jeff (or anyone else)
I've been trying to keep an eye out for stuff on EBay but
have had little success with searches. Any hints on where
and how to look? I've been adding auto searches but those
of course just return limited results or nada. For example
I had a search looking for Citi or Commuticars and have yet
to see a hit yet, have seen quite a few postings on here about
eBay listings.
This has me curious ;-]
Dave
> This came up on a search for EV stuff on eBay:
>
> Item #: 7517044927 - 5 New Buss Fuses Telepower TPL-BF 150A
> ELECTRIC VEHICLE
>
> New in the box. TPL-BF 150A 170V DC or less. 100,000A DC Int. RAT. Cooper
> Bussmann. I believe these are used in electric cars among other things!
>
> Are they any good and or of use to anyone?
>
> Jeff
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 19 May 2005 10:25:46 -0400, "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 6:57 AM
>Subject: RE: Cable crimping
>
>
>> Is it possible to solder instead of crimping?
>>
>> Boyntonstu
>> Hi Boyntonstu:
>
> Yes! Sure is! IF you have a hot enough torch, like an actylene out fit,
>or a plunbers soldering outfit, Actylene tank only. You need a lot of
>concentraited heat. A Burnzamatic? Well, you need a lotta patience! I buy
>REAL cast bronze , plated terminals from my local battery guy. For my #2
>wires I use a #3 terminal, easier to get all the wire frizzies in, dipping
>it first in flux, to get it in the mood, clean, when I apply the heat, Using
>wire solder, about one eighth or so, flow it in the space around the edges,
>til it "Tops" out. Then Cool, wet washcloth, wiping the flux slag away.
>VOILA! A good connection, you can pull hundreds of ampa all day, it will run
>cool. If it gets hot, Yup! Had one...... resolder! Never had a meltdown, AND
>if you rewire, just heat it up and remove! No wasted terminals,.
I use an ordinary Turner Turbo-MAPP torch. More than enough heat.
There is a good discussion and pix on my site here:
http://www.johngsbbq.com/Neon_John_site/EV/motor_repair/motor_repair.htm
BTW, http://www.waytekwire.com sells the good lugs from their online
store. Highly recommended.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan, thanks for the picture with the crimp areas
marked, that's the picture that's worth 1k of words.
Thanks for all the input on Dc/DC converters as well,
I've been following Richards thread as I'm in the
market for one as well. I'll need it to run the
cooling pump on my new Zilla. I can't wait to get that
green box!
If you want to do effective searches on E-bay (or
anywhere on the web) you need to make use of the + and
the *. The plus means two words must appear together
on the page or in the add electric +car for example.
The * is a wild card. Some search engines look for
exactly what you type. If you type in van it will
look for exactly that and not find the word elrctrovan
or vandura, if you search for *van* it will find both
plus any other word with van in it. The minus helps if
you get too many hits. Looking for info on a camper
shell, I typed in widernest. I got a million hits
about a resort area in Colorado, type in widernest
-colorado and most of the resort references go away.
TiM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Rau [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The following sites show DC-DC units that are all vying for
> the honor of gracing my motor compartment.
>
> I want 300W-500W output.
>
> http://datasheet.astrodyne.com/PSP300.pdf - Astrodyne
>
> http://www.amplepower.com/products/chrg/index.html - Ample Power
>
> http://www.powerstream.com/DC-HV.htm - Powerstream
>
> http://www.vicr.com/products/dc-dc/ - Vicor
>
> (and Azure Dynamics/Solectria - I need to look into this one more)
>
> ..and others can be found because a DC-DC power supplies are common
> components in the world of power electronics. Here is where
> my concern comes in. Will a 'conventional' DCDC power supply
> handle the duties of an EV? Temperature yes, but how about
> humidity, vibration, and more I'm sure.
The answer is "maybe". None of the power suplies you've listed are
sealed, so all will be susceptible to humidity, dirt, etc. The
exception here is the Vicor. The Azure/Solectria/Brusa DC/DC will
likely be sealed and intended for use in an automotive environment (and
priced accordingly much higher than the other options).
The Ample Power unit looks like a re-badged Todd. The Powerstream unit
doesn't mention how the unit behaves in the event of an overload
condition, and this will be critical to its suitability for use as a
DC/DC. The Astrodyne 500W unit responds to overload with constant
current limiting, which is good. The 300W unit likely does so also (I
still don't believe the datasheet's claim of constant voltage overload
behaviour).
If you went the Vicor route, you would want a pair of the 200W BatMods.
The 150V input model has a 100-200V input range, which might barely be
adequate for your 180V pack, provided you ensure the DC/DC is always
disconnected while charging. You would need to provide a heatsink for
the modules and wire them up with a bit of external circuitry to set the
output voltage and current limits, etc., so this is not a
"plug-and-play" solution like the alternatives.
> Note the following. These are Lee Hart's comments that I am
> borrowing from a 2002 EV Archive.
> > To begin, it should supply power for the various 12v loads
> > in a car; lights, motors, and minor electronic loads.
> > - The motors and lights draw tremendous starting currents,
> > so the DC/DC needs to start quickly into a nearly shorted
> > load (can't shut down like most switching power supplies do).
This is where the auto-recovery constant current limiting overload
behaviour of the Astrodyne (and Vicor BatMods) is important. I assume
the Ample Power/Todd clone also does this since Todd have been used as
EV DC/DCs for years.
> > - The DC/DC needs good transient response; voltage should
> > not sag more than 1-2v if the load is suddenly applied, or
> > overshoot more than 1-2v if the load is suddenly removed. If
> > it does, then you will see the headlights brighten and dim
> > when wipers or fans are turned on/off.
I suspect any of these units will satisfy this requirement. The voltage
overshoot may be important since some supplies respond differently to an
over-voltage condition than to overload, and may shut down and need to
be power-cycled to recover in the event of an over-voltage fault.
> > - The DC/DC should protect itself against too low an input voltage.
> > Remember that people have a habit of running their batteries
> > totally dead on occasion, so the DC/DC needs to be safe with
> > input voltages right down to zero! Best case; as input voltage
> > falls, reduce output power to protect DC/DC from damage yet still
> > provide 12v power for critical loads like emergency flashers,
> > control electronics, radio presets, etc.
This is a weakness of the Todd and likely its Ample Power clone. As the
input voltage falls, the supply draws more and more current until it
finally fries. The Astrodyne and Powerstream units reduce the maximum
output power (current) they can deliver as the input voltage drops.
What they do when the input voltage drops below the minimum input level
is not specified, but quite frankly, if your 180V stack of Optimas ever
gets run down below the Astrodyne's 124V min or the Powerstream's 90V
minimum, it really doesn't matter if the DC/DC commits suicide since its
replacement cost will disappear into the noise compared to the cost of
your replacement battery pack (since your pack will just have been
murdered).
> > - The DC/DC needs to protect itself against too high an
> > input voltage. AGM batteries on an unregulated charger can
> > easily go past 17v per 12v battery!
The 370V max input of the Astrodyne and Powerstream units covers this
off. The 200V max of the 150V input Vicor is just barely enough for a
180V pack shortly off charge, but would not survive if left connected
during charge. The 300V input Vicor handles 200-400V which doesn't
extend low enough to cover your normal operating range.
The usual problem with the Todd (and likely the Ample Power clone) is
that they are either 120VAC or 240VAC input (and of late, I understand
they may all use a voltage double on the input such that the 120VAC
units can't be run from a modest voltage DC pack). A 120VAC input
likely won't handle your peak pack voltage while a 240VAC input unit may
not handle the lower end of your pack voltage (and the unit may kill
itself trying to draw too much input current at the low pack voltage).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben Haines wrote:
>> So your saying from your experience, these battery revival that
>> they are able to bring back the capacity but the batteries still
>> had a high internal discharge?
Neon John wrote:
> Not internal discharge but lost capacity. It's like the pores in
> the plates seal back up or something. IOW, if I let the battery
> sit for a period of time and discharge it, the capacity drops.
> Recharge and discharge again and the capacity remains at the
> lower level. It recovers again when the pulser is reapplied.
>
> I have one of these units permanently attached to the batteries in my
> motorhome. According to the E-meter they still have practically the
> same capacity as new even though they're about 3 years old.
>
> As time allows I'm going to build one from the plans available on the
> net and adapt it to my 72 volt Citi and see how it works there. I
> want to see if a pack level device will work as well as a battery
> level one.
I've tested these pulsers before, too. When measured in a reliable,
repeatable A-B test, I could not find any statistically significant
improvement.
The problem is that a battery is a complicated gadget, and most people
do not understand how they normally behave. Most of these gadgets either
accidentally or deliberately rely on this lack of understanding.
Wishful thinking also plays a part. People *want* to believe there is a
miracle cure that will magically restore a bad battery. They will spend
more money on a mystery cure than a new battery costs. And, they will
test it in a haphazard way that yields no repeatable data. Their test is
designed to convince themselves that they didn't waste their money, not
to find out if it actually works.
Then all you get are testimonials, not test data. "This here thang works
good, real good!"
This combination of ignorance, wishful thinking, and bad testing has
been used to sell magnets that you stick on the side of a battery;
additives that are nothing but water, dye, and a little acid; and black
boxes that do nothing but blink an LED.
The performance of a lead-acid battery changes dramatically, depending
on how it is treated. For example:
1. Run a battery dead with some heavy load, then remove the load and
let it sit. The voltage will rise, and it seems to recharge itself.
You can apply the load, and it will work again -- briefly. This
happens with or without any magic cure; it is normal battery
behavior and would have done it even without the device.
All sorts of phony cures are sold using this trick. They crank an
engine until it won't turn over any more. Apply the miracle device
(and incidentally kill enough time to let the battery rest and
recover) then turn the key and "voila -- it starts!". It would
have started even without the cure.
2. If a battery is chronically charged on a "float" charger (under
2.3v/cell or 13.8v for a 12v battery), it never gets equalized.
The cells drift apart, and wind up at considerably different
states of charge. The battery goes dead as soon as the least-
charged cell goes dead.
By applying any trickle charger (any high-voltage, low-current
source that slowly brings the cells up to 2.5v/cell or 15v for a
12v battery), all cells will be brought to the same state of charge.
The battery's capacity will improve considerably. But if you put it
back on the float charger, the cells will drift back out of balance.
So, there are cures that depend on also applying a trickle charging
current. Many of the "miracle pulsers" have a little wall wart
power supply that is providing this trickle charger. This is what
is actually doing the work. It wouldn't matter if the pulser was
there or not.
3. If a battery sits around idle most of the time, it self-discharges.
Lead-acid batteries last the longest when kept at full charge. If
allowed to run down and sit long periods, they "sulfate". Basically,
this just means they have gotten out of shape and lazy. If you
simply start charging and discharging them normally, their capacity
improves with every cycle, until it is almost as good as new.
So there are cures that depend on you simply exercising the battery.
Add the device, charge, discharge, repeat... up goes the capacity!
It doesn't mean the device helps; just that you have stopped the
abusive behavior, and are finally doing what you should have done
all along.
There are also "battery minder" type products which are basically
just a small charger. They actually work, by preventing self-
discharge from gradually running the battery down. However, the
prices charged are often outrageous for such a small charger.
4. The hotter a lead-acid battery, the better its performance (but
the heat also shortens its life). So, many miracle charger tests
depend on deliberately letting the battery heat up from constant
charge-discharge cycling. High temperature can provide enough
extra capacity so a bad battery will pass an amphour test.
But let it cool off, and the performance is gone, too. Its
capacity goes back below the level defined as "bad" (usually 80%
of original capacity for BCI tests).
5. As a battery ages, it 'uses up' its active plate material and acid.
The lead and sulfuric acid form lead sulfate, which flakes off the
plates and falls to the bottom as sludge. This causes a permanent
loss of amphour capacity.
With less acid in solution, the internal resistance of the battery
rises. It can't deliver as much current under load, won't accept
as high a charging current, and its specific gravity is low.
But, you can add acid to bring the specific gravity at full charge
back up to normal (1260-1300). This won't restore amphour capacity,
but it will lower the resistance so you can draw higher load
currents and charge it faster. This might be enough to let the
battery "limp along" for a while in applications where you don't
actually need a lage amphour capacity (like for engine starting
batteries).
So, there are a range of expensive "tiger milks" that you add to
a battery. The only active ingredient is ten cents worth of
sulfuric acid. Yes, they work if the battery is still useful
with low amphour capacity. But you are carrying around 100
amphours of lead to get 10 amphours of capacity. Not useful for
an EV!
John, if you want to do some testing of this Home Power pulser circuit,
I suggest we devise a meaningful test plan. For example, I have ten
Eveready 24EV marine/RV deep cycle batteries. They are at the end of
life; about 6 years old, and down to about half their rated amphour
capacity. I can try:
1. Test 2 of them as-is (the Control group)
2. Test 2 with a simple wall-wart trickle charger only
3. Test 2 with the Home Power pulser only
4. Test 2 with the Home Power pulser *and* wall-wart trickler charger
(which is how they said to do it)
5. Which leaves 2 more that can be tested some other way
(does anyone have anthing they want tried?)
Now I realize an A-B test with only two samples of each is pretty lean;
but it's the best I can do.
Does anyone have any ideas on other ways to improve the test? What would
make it meaningful to you?
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks John for once again sharing your experiences. I totally agree with
your assessment of the refried beansprout crowd as I call them. I too have
experienced damage to our street rod due to uncontrolled children at these
events. I only put one vehicle in this years Port Townsend Earth Day event.
It was a GEM pickup with a large protest sign saying that EV Parts was
boycotting this years event due to the city government trying to restrict
electric vehicles in the city. On the morning of Earth Day I was following
an SUV with my electric scooter which costs less than a half kw/hr per fill
up, which is about three cents here. The SUV had a bumper sticker on the
back with a picture of an Indian and the quote: "The earth does not belong
to us, we belong to the earth". Just typical Port Townsend hypocrisy. It is
part of the reason we moved our business out of this county. I have some
choice names for our government that I can not say on this list.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 7:16 AM
Subject: Madman & Plasma Boy do Earth Day
Hello to All,
Nearly four Saturdays ago, my wife and I traveled 200+ miles north of
Portland, Oregon to
take part in the Earth day celebration show in the small rural town of
Kingston,
Washington, which is also home to Madman Rich Rudman and Manazanita Micro of
PFC charger
fame. I've been friends with Rich for a long time, and though I've been up
and down the
I-5 corridor seemingly hundreds of times on trips to Canada, Seattle,
Renton, Burien, Port
Townsend, Olympia, Tacoma, Tenino...well, you get the idea...I've never
actually been to
Kingston or to Rich's place. He's been to my place a gazillion times, but
I've never made
the trip to go see his.
Rich had asked me to help out his town's Earth Day EVent by bringing, as he
put it, a
'quality built' EV to augment his rough-around-the-edges' Goldie, the
muscular, hi torque,
tire shredding Fiesta EV...read that, he wanted Blue Meanie at his home town
enviro show.
Specifically, he wanted a sharp looking EV with a crank'n sound system.
In my brain, I questioned the 'crank'n sound system' bit, as without
exception, in all of
the past earth day shows I've been part of, they have nixed any attempt at
audio fun, with
immediate protests about how the sound was too loud, too aggressive, too
much this, too
much that....mellow-wimpy stuff like Gordon Lightfoot, Adrian Legg, Enya, or
any other
genra that lacks bass and is about as exciting as a bowl of soggy Special K
cereal
probably would be acceptable.
Rich and I are buddies, he does a lot for me, and I like to return favors,
so I
'reluctantly' agreed, not because I didn't want to, but because it wasn't a
realistic goal
to achieve. I didn't catch wind of this until the week before, pretty short
notice,
especially considering Blue Meanie has had its dash and console area torn up
for a while
as I've been redoing the center console and the entire stereo system. Work
happened, and I
found myself away from Portland and 160+ miles southeast, back in central
Oregon's city of
Bend doing fork lift service work....not one or two days, but 5 days, on and
off, back and
forth, overnight stays, etc., etc. I'd get home at 10 at night, then get up
at 5:00 AM to
start work early in town, then, I'd be off to travel again. I had no time
for regular
family stuff, let alone time to get my car all put back together and have it
show ready.
When Friday rolled around, the car was still as it had been, pretty much
untouched.
Coworker Tim Brehm showed up to help me, but by late Friday night, it was
quite obvious we
were nowhere close to having the car back together, and in fact, it was torn
down further.
Even if I had stayed up all night, I still had to get the trailer and Jeep
ready, put the
car on the trailer, etc., etc.....all this to be done in a driving Pacific
NW rain storm.
I called Rich late in the night to give him the bad news, but then I offered
to bring up
my Insight as a second best option. It's still an enviro type car, it has an
even more
outrageous sound system than Blue Meanie's (this is about to change), and,
my wife and I
could simply 'drive' it to the show...no Jeep, no trailer, none of the
hassle of fighting
traffic with the setup, and just a fraction of the $90-$110 fuel cost that
would be
incurred towing the trailer and car with the Jeep all the way to and from
the show. It was
a good plan, and one that Rudman jumped on.
I was pretty exhausted and frustrated by the time I finally got to bed near
1:00 AM, and
knowing we had to be up by 5:30 the next morning in order to make the 3 hour
drive up to
Kingston, it made me feel even more tired! The only saving grace, was that
the Insight
still had 3/4 a tank of gas, so I wouldn't have to take any extra time going
to the gas
station...you can do stuff like this when you've got an Insight that gets up
to 90+ mpg.
I recently wrote:
By the way, the last time I put some of that foreign oil (gas by another
name) in my Insight, was in mid February! Yes, I don't
drive it as much as I do my electric car, and yes, I drive a service
truck to and from work five days a week, but when I took a
freeway cruise the other night with Steely Dan's 'Everything Must Go'
playing at irresponsible internal organ massaging
volume levels, it's hi fi sound thrilled me, but it was the digital
Insight dash gauge displaying the fuel level was still at 3/4
full, that made me smile...oh yeah, the HV battery level was also at
'full'.
Not having to go get gas was a time saver, and a reminder of how frugal this
machine is.
How many folks out there would take off on a 400+ mile round trip without
their car's
10.6 gallon tank topped off? At 3/4 full, there was probably 7 - 7.5
gallons still in it,
in Insight terms, that's plenty of fuel.
The morning came way too early, but by 7:15 we were on our way to join the
Madman for a
day of enviro-awareness. There's only one way to put this....the weather was
horrible! The
rain was coming down like crazy with lots of big rigs all around us for the
entire 200
mile trek. Their kicked-up spray flinging off all 18 wheels that combined
with the
continual down pour, mandated high speed only wiper action. The freeway was
down to very
low visibility. Certain sections of I-5 has deep ruts that plays havoc with
the Insight's
narrow tires on dry pavement, let alone when these ruts are filled with deep
water. I love
driving, and I even look forward to driving in challenging conditions, but
'this' was
truly a white knuckled drive. The temperature was on the cool side many
times turning the
rain into hail, so I had to run the AC compressor constantly in the defrost
mode to keep
things defogged inside the car. Finally, we had to move along at 73-75 mph
to keep from
being sucked under or run over by semis. This was a menu then, for worse
case fuel mileage
as the Insight had to scrap with all the behemoths on the road while pushing
against
torrents of water, running a richer mixture due to the low temp air,
cruising at higher
speeds, and running its AC constantly.
A needed break about one third the distance up I-5 at 'Spiffy's' for a mondo
breakfast
buffet was the only respite from the soaking drive. The storm was at a
minimum, 200 miles
wide, as it never let up until we turned northwest off I-5 on the last leg
into Kingston.
About three and a half hours after departing from Portland, we were up in
the hills of
rural Washington state and as we came into Kingston, just as Madman said
might happen,
the clouds parted and glorious sunshine welcomed us...weird, after such a
long, grey
drive. The Insight got it worse mileage since I've owned it, at just 54
mpg...it usually
delivers in the 75-80 mpg range even with a full passenger load and
overnight luggage, and
with just me as the driver at speeds of 57-62 mph on clear 65-75 degree
days, it gets 92
mpg. The fuel gauge was at 1/3 or so.
Rich's place was great, and we received a warm welcome. Attached to their
home is a car
port and garage area where Rich does some of his Madman stuff. Batteries
everywhere,
wires, motors, car parts, gauges...and of course, the electric motor test
dyno! It's got a
video feed going into the heated garage, where inside a computer setup and
small TV
operate and monitor things. You sit there, listening to the outdoors sounds
of birds,
wind, and water through a less-than-hi fi speaker system, then the silence
is broken by
the sound of an electric motor spinning up, as you watch the brushes
flashing nifty arcs
off the commutator in the little black and white TV....cool.
Rich and I left our wives to do their thing, as we departed together in the
Insight for my
first ever trip to Manzanita Micro where we would pick up Goldie, and of
course, I'd get
my first view inside the brain of the Madman....his electronics shop. All I
can say, is
'wow'! Out front in the clean parking area, sits the big 'ol forklift
battery I got for
him, linked to the shop via 2/0 power cables and several 350A Anderson quick
connects. His
shop isn't huge, but compared to my small backyard 2 car garage sized EV
shop, it is.
Inside, there's plenty of space for Goldie and his recent Yale forklift
acquisition,
enough batteries to power a small town, a monster sized generator/dyno,
various
workbenches strewn with circuit boards, a motor here - a motor there, and
there are of
course, racks full of pretty green boxes, some completed and ready to go to
anxious
customers and other in various stages of completion. Oh yeah, there was also
the full size
vertical rack housing the BIG isolated charger project, one that can jam too
many amps to
remember. If you're an electronic geek and love things that spin, whir,
glow, and make
heat, this is the place! When he flips on power to everything, you begin to
realize how
many projects he's working on simultaneously as high intensity LEDs light
up, fans and
load banks go into action, transformers hum, and meters all wake up. Yeah,
this was fun!
It was time to get over to the Earth Day EVent, and after making sure
Goldie's now 8 year
old Optima YTs (at least some of them are this old, as it's a mixture of
YTs) were topped
off, we left with Rich in the lead, I following in Sniffer, my 'normally'
fume sniffing
Insight. Funny, how even with tired old YTs and knowing Rich had never
really punched it
hard, he easily squirted away from me several times even though I had the
Insight to the
wood....yeah, pure electric blows away hybrid stuff. Still, it was fun, the
two of us
tooling around this beautiful rural town in our two enviro cars.
Not much can be said about the actual EVent, other than it was the typical
granola
crunching save the earth crowd, only a bit more bizarre than usual in that
many of those
directly involved with the show were wearing goofy animal costumes, I guess,
to
convey their thoughts of 'being one with all God's creatures' or something
like
that...cute, but goofy. The setting was in a wooded lot, the ground muddy
and wet. They
had covered the area where we parked our cars with shredded fir bows and
fresh wood chips.
As I pulled my car into place, it felt like I was driving on cork and felt
that at any
minute, I would sink down into a mud bog. Have I ever spoken on how much I
hate mud,
especially when it gets on my car's tires?
Once we had the cars staged for the right effect, Rich told me to go ahead
and crank up
the tunes. I looked around and assessed the 'scene', then told Rich it
wasn't going to be
a good idea, but Rudman being Rudman, or at this moment, the Madman,
insisted. And so,
the soothing sounds of chirping birds and barking squirrels was suddenly
punctuated by
loud clear audio flowing from the MB Quarts as the classic southern rock
rhythm of Lynyrd
Skynyrd's 'On the Hunt' woke things up. Almost immediately, a two legged
raccoon came
busting out of the woods, mad as hell, demanding we turn that 'noise' off!
Thanks, Rich.
Retuning to nature, the show was pretty much the same as other Earth Day
EVents I've been
part of, with most everyone at there already convinced that recycling,
minimalist use of
resources, and alternative fuels being the way to go. I'm all for that
stuff, as long as
it's done within reason and as long as political dissertations are left out
of the
equation. It was as it usually is though, a 'preaching to the choir' type of
thing, so I
question how many regular folks were influenced by it all. Personally, I
find a large
majority of the earth muffin type folks hard to put up with, especially when
it comes to
their ill behaved offspring. It seems that a hands off approach to raising
their kids, is
the norm...we don't want to hurt their self esteem by telling them no, or by
scolding them
when they act like little animals...heck, even their parents wanted to be
animals on this
day. Yeah, this was definitely the stereotypical Earth Day crowd, so I was
was worn down
by the day's end after having to constantly remind little brats, their
fingers greasy and
dirty from all they've touched, not to lean against the car, pry open its
doors, and jump
up and down on the custom seats...all the while, their parents let them do
it without a
single word said to them. One guy asked me what I paid for the car, and when
I told him
around $20,000 five years ago, he coughed up a "Oh, that's expensive!"
Then, after his
self proclamation of how 'expensive' my car was, he watched as his little
maniacs pushed
on, leaned on, drooled on, and overall abused my car...not a word said to
them. When I
told them to look but not touch and to please not pull on the mirrors or
scratch the
paint, he acted as if I had committed the utmost sin and said, "Come on
kids, lets go."
This may be my last Earth Day that I'll take my clean, polished, detailed
cars to. I'll
stick to hot rod EVents, show and shine get-togethers, auto shows, electric
vehicle shows,
and of course, the drag strip. Too bad I don't still have Sluggo, the 3100
lb., 108V, wet
cell / 400 amp Curtis powered Ford Escort I used to have...with it's funky
bodywork, so-so
paint job, and uninspired interior with the awesome stock radio, it's the
perfect Earth
Day EV. The little demons could jump on it, kick it, and abuse it all they'd
want and it
would still look the same.
After what seemed to be an eternity, the EVent finally winded down and it
was time to fold
up camp and go back to the Rudman home base. Rich was all concerned about
Goldie being
able to make it back on its old batteries and wanted to jam in some quick
amps before we
left. Unfortunately, the dirt road that led to the outdoor outlet he wanted
access to, was
blocked by several SUVs being loaded up with stuff. Funny, how these enviro
folks talk the
game, then drive BIG SUVs instead of an electric pickup or a hybrid. Rich
was in a
hand-wringing moment now, but I was thoroughly enjoying his panic and
thought it would
make for an EVentful trip back to his place. The aging Optimas stepped up
to the plate
however, and Goldie cruised back to Manazanita Micro just fine, thank you.
There's a microbrew facility across the parking lot from Rich's shop, Hood
Canal Brewery,
and though I'm not a big drinker, I 'do' occasionally like to have a beer
with friends.
Rich and I took a break from Goldie's recharge and I was introduced to 'Big
Beef Stout'.
Don't worry, I'm not a drink 'n drive guy at all. I merely sampled three of
their brews in
small shot style glasses, but I did take a 6 pack of Big Beef Stout with me.
We left Hood Canal Brewery, as I handed Rudman the keys to my Insight...he'd
never driven
one before. Since the car had already hit an all time low in fuel economy, I
gave Rich
permission to throw miserly driving to the wind and told him to enjoy
himself. He took me
on an aggressive, hard corning, spirited drive down a road that cut through
emerald green
foliage still dripping with the recent rains. To add to the effect, we had
Velvet Revolver
pumping at HIGH wattage levels through the 700 watt rms Wayland sound
system, thus, Madman
had no vision out the inside rear view mirror. Let it suffice to say,
Rudman had a fun
time.
After returning to the Rudman digs, we had a terrific dinner of homemade
lasagna. Though
the Earth Day show was a chore to take part of, just hanging out with Rich
and his family
made the trip worth the effort.
Cheryl and I left to get to our hotel for the night, the weather still clear
and dry. In
the morning, we headed out with the Insight's gas tank at the 1/3 level, or
about 3-4
gallons of gas...plenty for a 200+ mile run. It was warmer, the rain was
gone, and the
beginning of the trip was largely downhill with the speed limit at 50 mph.
The Insight
rewarded me with 90+ mpg for the first 20 miles or so, then settled in at
the low 80's.
Once on the I-5 freeway system though, the rains and wind returned, and the
mileage fell
into the mid 70's. We made it home with one bar left on the fuel gauge, the
NiMH batteries
were as they usually are, topped off with the HV battery pack gauge near
full.
See Ya.......John Wayland
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