EV Digest 4379
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: You need a welder - not a bad discussion at all
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) You need a welder
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EV conversion tiny car _ Battery Trailer required?
by Lance Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hybrid kit?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Local EV Guru Gets Published AGAIN
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Smart cars
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: You need a welder
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: You need a welder (Playing the Kazoo)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Where is the best buy on ADC motors?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Is this Welding idea possible?
by "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Driving in final gear did not work.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: The tantalizing high voltage future
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Where is the best buy on ADC motors?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: You need a welder
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: You need a welder
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Detroit Electric
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: You need a welder
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: General Radio Type W20H 220v dual variac on one shaft. What can this
baby do
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: General Radio Type W20H 220v dual variac on one shaft. What can this
baby do?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Venturi Fetish
by "Paulcompton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Driving in final gear did not work.
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: General Radio Type W20H 220v dual variac on one shaft. What can this
baby do?
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) article: Contrarian Mitsubishi bets on electric vehicles; road tests
to begin next year
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Zilla Powered Blue Meanie Lights up the Crowd (and its tires)
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Amen,
As a hard core power electronics designer, I've found
this thread quite interesting for the EV hobbiest that
needs to weld some racks. I've been taking notes and
might just buy a MIG welder myself. Like you said,
lots of stuff flying around concerning opinions, but
not political.
Thanks for all of the posts, I'm learning.
Rod
--- Philip Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> >You know... From a newbie point of view I find this
> whole tirade about
> >welding to be sophomoric at best. I can't believe
> a bunch of EV hobbyists
> >and professional developers could possibly go on
> for so long inputting such
> >ridiculous opinions without a spec of open
> mindedness that I thought this
> >group had when I first started reading these posts
> 2 months ago.
> >
> >Frankly, I find it insulting.
>
>
> Actually, I have found this discussion relatively
> refreshing:
>
>
> 1. It's on topic ( about building EV's)
>
> 2, It's included useful comments about what kind of
> welding (or brazing) is
> better and why - and what types and brands of
> equipment to use (and avoid).
>
> 3. No one has invoked religion,
>
> 4. No mention of politics
>
> 5. No one has been called a sprout-eater, Nazi, or
> ( my favorite) "natzie",
>
>
> And, it has gotten me thinking about buying a MIG
> welder and learning how to
> weld.
>
>
> Phil
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
> Search!
>
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, Gadget. But I'm bringin' the wife!
She cuts a mean line with a paint brush, but I lay the anally perfecto bead
of caulk.
Even odds on who learns fastest:^O
Will my OCD help any?
Just say when...
Marv
Culver City
> From: Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 13:01:07 -0700 (PDT)
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: You need a welder
>
> If Anyboby out here in Los Angeles want to weld, come
> on by and I'll teach ya.
>
> Gadget
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am considering converting a Triumph Spitfire to an EV. After calculating a
few typical mission profiles, I find that the most typical mission consumes 5
kWhrs of energy, 25 minutes run time, <20 miles. The largest typical profile
consumes about 10 kWhrs, 35 minutes, 30 miles. There is perhaps one other
mission that would require double that amount of energy, say <20 kWhrs 60
minutes, 50 miles.
The Triumph Spitfire is a really tiny car. A few examples that I know of have
used 9, 13 or 14 each 12V flooded lead acid batteries. I figure that an
operationally conservative design might have perhaps 12 each batteries without
undue braille parking or maintenance issues. 12 each Flooded lead acid
batteries might hold 10 kWhrs at the 1 hour rate. Is this enough for the 10Kwhr
mission or should more energy be available for battery age or other
contingencies?
Now, for the bigger missions. Is a trailer with and identically sized battery
back to the one in the car, a practical range extender? I figure that the
trailer pack would be connected in parallel to the car pack. Either pack would
be recharged independantly of the other, since the trailer pack would be less
used. I think just a simple lightweight utility trailer might work with a
suitable enclosure. Such a trailer might carry 800 to 1,000 lbs of batteries
(12 each @ 70 lbs or so). I'm guessing this sort of weight would require it
own braking system.
Do listers use these sorts of trailer? Where can I find out more about this
approach?
Best regards
Lance Smith Bat Area Ca.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> That has to be the funniest Ebay auction I've seen in a long time.
>>
>> I should put up an auction.
>>
>> Title: EV
>> Opening Price: $13,000
>> Body: <h8>Really good EV for sale</h8>
>>
>> :)
>>
>
> Item has some info now:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4551426025
> Appears he's into contactor control of an aircraft generator.
>
Hmm, I think the auction was better BEFORE he added the info.
He hasn't even STARTED to build it yet an already he's trying to sell the
finished product.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As you all may know, WIRED magazine did a wonderful multi page article
in their April 05 issue on Toyota and Prius, with a Hopped UP cartoon
version of a Prius SQUARE on the Front Cover. But they left out ONE
important fact. All the good work being done by CalCars.org and Energy
Control Systems, Clean-Tech LLC, and Valence !
So I wrote to the editor, and they published my feedback ! in the June
05 issue!
To paraphrase ( page 23 )
" ... I want to thank WIRED for bringing to light the world fuel
situation. ...The more I can use the electric propulsion, the better
mileage I'll get" ..."This is where I must tell you about CalCars and
their work modifying new Priuses to run harder and longer on
electricity.." " ...allowing owners to replenish at the end of an
extension cord, rather than just buying more gas - thereby achieving 80
to 100+ miles per gallon. I wish these facts could have been included"
Steven S. Lough
President, Seattle EV Association
Seattle, Wa. ""
end of article ( WELL REALLY JUST A PARAGRAPH )
NOT BAD !! HUH ???
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You do realize that those cars don't actually exist...right?
Just people playing around with photoshop.
> http://www.streetracersonline.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=418
>
> uhm, cute? The corvette and porshe don't look to bad. On something this
> tiny, I can see the benifit of using smaller motors and smaller
> controllers, but AGM's or floddies are probably not a good idea, right?
> Could these bring litium ion powered down into the price range of mere
> mortals, or maybe make feesable NIMH packs assembled from D cells?
> Anyone know the curb weight?
>
> because of the oversize looking tires, they do look like RC cars or the
> ones they give out at cheveron's
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree, the typical welding problems I see in uni-body cars is too MUCH
heat rather than too little.
I get acceptable penetration on 1/8 angle iron with a 120V welder and even
on the low setting I have to be carful when welding in new body panels to
prevent warping.
I've even welded 1/4 steel by taking a couple passes.
> You can weld everything you need to in a conversion project with
> a
> 120 volt MIG welder, and the cost is a fraction of the larger
> "professional" 240 volt models. It is the choice that makes sense for a
> person doing a conversion.
>
>>The 120-volt machines which use an ordinary 20-amp outlet just
>>can't provide enough heat for good weld penetration except in very
>>thin material.
>
> Great for welding 1/8" thick angle iron for battery boxes. Great
> for welding 14 gauge steel sheet metal, like they make cars out of. No
> good
> for welding boilers, bridge I-beams, and oil pipelines, but that is OK.
>
>> One can produce welds that look good but don't
>>penetrate the joints and provide good strength.
>
> You can do this with the most expensive welding machine made. :^)
>
> In addition to my 120 volt MIG welder, I have a 240 volt input,
> 375 amp output, HF TIG and stick, inverter style welder. Nice unit.
> However, my 120 volt MIG is my first choice if it is suitable for the
> specific job. Why? Because it is more portable, quicker to set up, simpler
> to use, and welds faster than the more expensive "better" welder.
>
> I lent my MIG welder to a pal, so today I used the TIG welder to
> build an engine stand bracket for a Renesis engine that I plan to put in
> my
> airplane. Good practice for me, but much, much slower than the MIG welder.
>
> I can't really lend my TIG/Stick welder because it needs 240
> volts. My Sears MIG welder plugs in anywhere.
>
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I took a oxy-acetalyn (sp?) welding class once, WAY tougher than mig welding.
There were two women taking the class and just my luck, they ended up in
the booths on either side of me. I was starting to get depressed about
how slowly I was learning compared to them, until I realized I was doing
better than most of the other guys.
The two ladies and only one of the men made it to inverted welding before
the course ended.
> (Actually, girls are typically better welders than boys. I have
> taught about 40 kids how to weld.)
>
> The welds are just fine for battery boxes and motor mounts.
>
> Notice that many of these folks think that welding is some
> mysterious art. It is REALLY simple to MIG weld. (Other types of welding
> take considerably more skill.)
>
> It really astounds me how fearful many people are to learn new
> skills. Try welding. If you are in Denver, drop by and I will show you how
> to MIG weld. You will be amazed at how simple it is.
>
>>Do you really want to trust your life to
>> > them in a collision?
>
> I have to ask. Mike, have you had a certified professional
> engineer perform finite element structural simulation on the battery racks
> and motor mounts that you sell? WHAT? You haven't? Oh my god!
>
> You don't need to hire a professional to do an EV conversion. You
> can read a book and figure it out yourself, or have a buddy show you how
> to
> do it. You also don't need to hire a professional to do the welding for
> your EV conversion. You can read a book and figure it out yourself, or
> have
> a buddy show you how to do it.
>
> If we depended on certified professionals to do everything, there
> wouldn't be any home-built EV conversions at all.
>
> Keep in mind that 1000's of folks successfully build airplanes
> every year in their garages simply by reading the instructions and/or
> asking a buddy to show you how to do it. You trust your life to every part
> of the airplane that you construct. The FAA _REQUIRES_ that you build at
> least 51% yourself.
>
> Neon writes:
>
>>What the h*ll does that have to do with anything in this discussion?
>>We're not welding pressure vessels, nor are we welding high alloy
>>steel. We're squirting mild steel onto either mild or low carbon
>>steel.
>
> Exactly my point. Welding street cars is not rocket science.
>
>
>>Just for the record, I was formerly a certified welder and a certified
>>nuclear non-destructive testing inspector. >I< can teach someone to
>>make structurally sound MIG welds that will pass dye penetrant and
>>ultrasonic inspection in hours. I'm sure he can too. I taught my ex
>>in about an hour and by the end of the day her welds were even pretty.
>
> MIG welding is _REALLY_ easy to do.
>
> I do stick, TIG, and flame welding as well. These styles of
> welding can be as difficult as playing the saxophone. MIG welding is as
> difficult as playing the Kazoo.
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They don't have to be flashy, in fact I prefer websites that DON'T use
flashy crap (like Flash for example).
But nice website that is up to date and informative is NOT expensive nor
terribly diffacult.
Even if you aren't setup to handle credit cards, you can use something
like Paypal to handle the credit card transaction and you'll recieve all
your orders via email.
Shoot I wrote a simple Perl script that let's my 65 year old mother
maintain her e-bussiness website and she doesn't know ANYTHING about
programing.
> You have to remember; these business don't have millions of dollars in
> sales to pay for fancy website design. Besides, does a fancy website
> mean better products? I find just the opposite to be true; the flashier
> the website, the more expensive the products and the worse the customer
> service!
> --
> "*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world."
> -- Mahatma Ghandi
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having read about 115 Volt MIG welders and also about 'Ford' battery
welders, I thought, "Why not combine the 2 for greater capacity?"
If the DC voltage on the welder is 36, why not place 3-12Volt batteries in
parallel to boost the current?
Am I off base with this idea?
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I been driving my EV now for about 30 years. The commentator and brushes been
running find to about a month ago. I started to test the EV with driving in
only the final gear or 1 : 1 ratio and a differential gear of 5.57 and shut off
the idle control to see if I could modified the EV with out a clutch and with
transmission that has only forward, neutral reverse.
Driving for about a month starting out in 5.57:1 gear cause brush burn in marks
across the commentator. This was cause by 400 amp start ups underload. There
are several four sets of brush burn in lines across the commentator.
After I turn the commentator and undercut and get a new set of $500.00
silver-carbon compound brushes from the brush guy at
http://www.repcoinc.com<http://www.repcoinc.com/>. When I was on the phone
with him, I can hear him flip out on the cost of these brushes which were only
made for 6 GE motors!
I going to put it back in idle control. This allows the motor to come up to
about 500 rpm which only has a starting load of 40 to 60 amps. Used the
starting gear of 19.5:1 from 0 to 10 mph and 13.5:1 from 10 to 20 mph like I
have been doing for the last 30 years except for the last month.
Therefore, it was not good to start a EV without a transmission and start up
under load. Your commentator will not last as long. Your drag people know
this, where they have to turn or condition the commentator after every run.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:28 PM 5/22/2005, Ryan Stotts wrote:
Now just for fun, since these are a bit more conventional compared to
the Kokams, I figured out how many would fit, the weight, and the pack
voltage..
http://www.metricmind.com/battery.htm
The TS-LP6163A in particular. It's roughly 2" thick, 4.5" wide, and
7.5" tall and weighs 3 lbs. Unfortunately, it's only 3.6 volts.
Those are the ThunderSky cells.
Right now, my opinion of them isn't printable in public.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 22 May 2005 11:33:25 -0700, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>mreish wrote:
>> I think the state of EV/Web commerce is pretty bad. Come on guys.
>> It's 2005 and time to get your sites out of 1995.
>
>You have to remember; these business don't have millions of dollars in
>sales to pay for fancy website design. Besides, does a fancy website
>mean better products? I find just the opposite to be true; the flashier
>the website, the more expensive the products and the worse the customer
>service!
Gad, this sounds like throwing that submarine thing into the welding
thread.
I thought that the major thing about the web was that it could make a
tiny shop look like a big one.
I spent literally hundreds (about $300 to be exact) and a long weekend
on my restaurant's web site, using FrontPage to author it. It looks
like it'll take another couple of weekends at the cabin to tie into an
e-store backend to provide on-line ordering.
This ain't brain surgery. It doesn't take millions to set up an
e-commerce site. All it takes is giving a sh*t about one's
presentation and presence. I can understand a few bobbles here and
there but to have product listed that's been out of production for
years and NOT have product listed that is sitting on the shelf of the
mfr, well, there's no excuse for. Especially with these database
driven sites that require only updating a database to add or remove
inventory.
I'm sure I'm not the only person in this condition but I simply don't
have time to do the telephone thing during the day. I run a small and
tight shop (two people) at my 100 seat restaurant which means I'm
running all day. When I'm on the phone I'm not seeing to customers.
I do ALL my ordering at night after the restaurant closes. I'm to the
point now that if a vendor doesn't have web ordering or at least voice
mail ordering then I don't do business with it.
Of all my varied and sundry interests, it seems like the EV parts
world is the ONLY one that doesn't have its web act together. I
wonder why that is? (don't answer that question!)
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 22 May 2005 19:08:46 -0600, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In addition to my 120 volt MIG welder, I have a 240 volt input,
>375 amp output, HF TIG and stick, inverter style welder. Nice unit.
>However, my 120 volt MIG is my first choice if it is suitable for the
>specific job. Why? Because it is more portable, quicker to set up, simpler
>to use, and welds faster than the more expensive "better" welder.
Similar situation here. My "main" MIG welder is a Miller 195 (highly
recommended). I also have a 120 volt chicom squirter that uses flux
core wire. When I'm doing a "project" (a planned operation in the
shop that requires setups) I use the 195. But when I just need to
squirt some steel to stick some pieces of metal together, the ChiCom
rig works well. It doesn't need a gas bottle, it's light enough to
carry one handed and it'll work with a generator (bigger MIG welders
tend to kill the voltage regulators in generators.)
Just this afternoon I found a stress crack in the diamond plate on my
truck's liftgate. I looked at how much work it would be to roll the
Miller out and run a 240 volt extension cord and reached for the
ChiCom. It very contentedly ran from the 5.5kw generator in the truck
and got the job done. I felt the need to dress the weld a little with
a flapper wheel and an angle grinder for appearances sake but the
penetration is full thickness. What more can I ask?
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This has been a great thread.
Once I finish machining my adapter, my next purchase and skill to
learn will be a welder and welding.
Bill, you said a MIG was easier than a TIG, but you also said a TIG
was slower. It seems slower would be easier to learn and control --
so why is MIG easier? How much harder would you say TIG is? I assume
it is a given that TIG produces better welds, and realize MIG is
cheaper.
--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In addition to my 120 volt MIG welder, I have a 240 volt
> input,
> 375 amp output, HF TIG and stick, inverter style welder. Nice unit.
>
> However, my 120 volt MIG is my first choice if it is suitable for
> the
> specific job. Why? Because it is more portable, quicker to set up,
> simpler
> to use, and welds faster than the more expensive "better" welder.
>
> I lent my MIG welder to a pal, so today I used the TIG
> welder to
> build an engine stand bracket for a Renesis engine that I plan to
> put in my
> airplane. Good practice for me, but much, much slower than the MIG
> welder.
>
> I can't really lend my TIG/Stick welder because it needs
> 240
> volts. My Sears MIG welder plugs in anywhere.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: bob burnside
To: Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:42 PM
Subject: Did you see
this?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mig's are cheap relatively and can work on 110 - 125v LR........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony McCormick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: You need a welder
So, interesting discussion, I could be wrong but a MIG also requires a
220v circuit... don't have one of those either, all my heavy appliances
run on natural gas....
I have been a EV owner and "upgrader" for 5-6 years and have never needed
to weld anything. I prefer rivets for most jobs. Never needed to build
a battery box and wouldn't want to try aluminum welding as a one time
project. I am a passable Oxy/Acetylene welder when I need to be... so
far not on my EV, and I would have to rent the equipment in any case. By
the way, you can build a great, strong box with just rivets.
Frankly, I would love to own a MIG, but $$$ are an obstacle, so a hammer
crimper has been ordered and I'll use the suggestions and my vise to drive
it.
--Tony
----- Original Message ----- From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 11:27 PM
Subject: You need a welder (was: Cable crimping)
MIG welding is ridiculously simple to do. Can you use a hot glue
gun without burning yourself? If so, you can MIG weld. Folks act like
welding is some mystical black art, and only the "anointed ones" that
have the elusive "welding genes" are allowed to operate the sacred
welding equipment.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any advantage to splitting up the pack and using one variac output on half
the pack. At this point is the two variacs on one shaft a hindrance. IE:
you can't fine tune either one. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:24 AM
Subject: RE: General Radio Type W20H 220v dual variac on one shaft. What can
this baby do
You can certainly parallel the outputs ( and inputs) to get twice the
current, as long as the connections are accessible,
You probably won't be able to get 16 amps DC out safely, though.
There are two reasons:
1. The two variac sections may not share the load equally. I am using a
similar setup (two 120V sections of one shaft in parallel) and, to make
sure the currents were similar in each section, I added some resistance
( in my case, a precision 10 watt, 0.05 ohm power resistor) in series with
the output of each section.
This does two things: it will tend to equalize the current a bit, and it
gives you a way to easily measure the current in each section. ( Measure
the voltage drop across each resistor and compare them), In my case, one
section supplies about 60% of the current. This was even worse before I
cleaned off the contact wiper areas on the coils. If they're not equal,
your maximum total current will be less than twice the individual rated
current.
As a bonus, adding resistance will make it easier to adjust battery
charging current (and make the current a little more stable as the
batteries charge).
2, The 8 amp rating for each section is AC current - for resistive loads
( power factor = 1.0) Your power factor will be much lower since you are
rectifying it to get rippling DC. Your actual current will be in short
bursts 120 times a second as the rectified rippling DC exceeds the pack
voltage. ( That's for a full-wave bridge rectifier - and much worse for a
half wave rectifies ( single diode))
If your RMS current is, for example, twice ( just a guess) what the
average( DC) current is, you can only draw 4 amps DC from each section
( 8 amps DC total charging current into your batteries) without exceeding
the intended variac heating.
You can always add fan cooling to allow somewhat higher currents, though.
Any ideas out there to increase the power factor in the variac? Will
adding capacitance across the variac inputs help??
Phil
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: General Radio Type W20H 220v dual variac on one shaft. What can
this baby do?
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 19:07:10 -0700
Two 8 amp 220 variac's on one shaft. Can I pump the same 220v line in to
both and get 16 amps at 300v? These are rated at 8 amps each. Can I
parallel the output?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
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--- Begin Message ---
Would spliting the pack and using one output for each be a better option.
Can these one shaft multi variacs be syncronized? How would that be done?
Do the brushes have adjustment screws? LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: General Radio Type W20H 220v dual variac on one shaft. What can
this baby do?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Two 8 amp 220 variac's on one shaft. Can I pump the same 220v line in to
both and get 16 amps at 300v? These are rated at 8 amps each. Can I
parallel the output?
I wouldn't. Unless they are perfectly synchronized, they can "fight"
each other, and produce a large fault current. If you must parallel them
anyway, then put separate fuses in each one's brush connection -- this
fuse will blow if the two knobs are not precisely in the same position.
--
"*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world."
-- Mahatma Ghandi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Venturi Fetish is supposed to be being test driven on UK's channel 5
tonight; Fifth Gear, 8pm?
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
___________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Commutator?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Monday, 23 May 2005 2:55 PM
To: ev
Subject: Driving in final gear did not work.
I been driving my EV now for about 30 years. The commentator and
brushes been running find to about a month ago. I started to test the
EV with driving in only the final gear or 1 : 1 ratio and a differential
gear of 5.57 and shut off the idle control to see if I could modified
the EV with out a clutch and with transmission that has only forward,
neutral reverse.
Driving for about a month starting out in 5.57:1 gear cause brush burn
in marks across the commentator. This was cause by 400 amp start ups
underload. There are several four sets of brush burn in lines across
the commentator.
After I turn the commentator and undercut and get a new set of $500.00
silver-carbon compound brushes from the brush guy at
http://www.repcoinc.com<http://www.repcoinc.com/>. When I was on the
phone with him, I can hear him flip out on the cost of these brushes
which were only made for 6 GE motors!
I going to put it back in idle control. This allows the motor to come
up to about 500 rpm which only has a starting load of 40 to 60 amps.
Used the starting gear of 19.5:1 from 0 to 10 mph and 13.5:1 from 10 to
20 mph like I have been doing for the last 30 years except for the last
month.
Therefore, it was not good to start a EV without a transmission and
start up under load. Your commentator will not last as long. Your drag
people know this, where they have to turn or condition the commentator
after every run.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been using "Variacs" for years. I have a three phase one that
originally had 6 5kVAs on one shaft. They can be synched by loosening 2
set screws on the brush boss connecting to the shaft. Now parallel the
variac together but leave the brush ends free. Connect a DM or AC
analogue meter across the brush outputs and jiggle the brush plate
(power disconnected) to minimise the voltage difference. Beware that you
are dealing with high volts here so wear gloves and keep one hand behind
your back.
The ideal arrangement is to feed each variac output via a small amount
of inductance which will limit the circulating current that would occur
if the Vs ever go out of synch. Assuming 2% of error and 120V AC you
will have 2.4 Volts. Approx .5 Ohms in each leg will result in 2.4A of
circulating current which is what in electrical theory is called
quadrature component which is at right angles to the in phase or normal
current. I would need to know the power factor of your load to calculate
the effect it might have.
Regards
David Sharpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, 23 May 2005 5:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: General Radio Type W20H 220v dual variac on one shaft. What
can this baby do?
Would spliting the pack and using one output for each be a better
option.
Can these one shaft multi variacs be syncronized? How would that be
done?
Do the brushes have adjustment screws? LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: General Radio Type W20H 220v dual variac on one shaft. What
can
this baby do?
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>>
>> Two 8 amp 220 variac's on one shaft. Can I pump the same 220v line
in to
>> both and get 16 amps at 300v? These are rated at 8 amps each. Can I
>> parallel the output?
>
> I wouldn't. Unless they are perfectly synchronized, they can "fight"
> each other, and produce a large fault current. If you must parallel
them
> anyway, then put separate fuses in each one's brush connection -- this
> fuse will blow if the two knobs are not precisely in the same
position.
> --
> "*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world."
> -- Mahatma Ghandi
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A little bit more technical information about Mitsubishi's electric car
plans:
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102388
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
It's Sunday, a week since last week's EVent packed weekend. I'm trying to get
caught up
with my writing, but there's been a lot of activity around here, so bear with
me folks :-)
It was pretty much three days of total EV stuff that began on Thursday.
About that rain-soaked trip to Kingston, Washington four weeks ago, I had
written:
>Rich had asked me to help out his town's Earth Day EVent by bringing, as he
>put it, a
>'quality built' EV to augment his rough-around-the-edges' Goldie....When
>Friday rolled
>around, the car was still as it had >been, pretty much untouched. Coworker Tim
>Brehm
>showed up to help me, but by late Friday night, it was quite obvious >we were
>nowhere
>close to having the car back together, and in fact, it was torn down further.
As I had posted, Tim Brehm and I had 'tried' to get Blue Meanie put back
together for that
show, but we simply didn't have time to do it, so the Insight was the stand-in
for the
Kingston EVent. Following that weekend, a couple of weeks blew by with nothing
more done
to the car, as other racing EV stuff was being focussed on. Then, last weekend
was on the horizon.
Tim's first ever post to the EVDL pretty much covers things, but I'd like to
add my
perspective as well. I had written:
>To add to all the stuff on my plate, Tim and I will be taking Blue Meanie to a
>custom
>street rod show on Saturday, so we've got to get the Z1K installed, the four
>new subs
>mounted, and the stereo system back on line. Lots to do, but when your having
>this much EV
>fun, it's all worth it.
It wasn't even close to being show-ready when we started, having been left in a
torn down
state for about a month or so, as I was working on the sound system, and, had
also removed
its Raptor controller. So here the car was, no throttle control (the solenoid
control went
with the Raptor), no controller, high current HV wires hanging here and there,
wire
harnesses torn open and partially gutted, the interior's console out of the car
and
totally disassembled, the glove box gone, and the rear package shelf -
subwoofer enclosure
minus any woofers because the old ones were given away and the new beefy JL
Audio 8W3v2
subs were too deep to drop in...in a nutshell, the car needed a week's worth of
work. I
got home from work late Thursday and started on the install of the Zilla,
pretty much
putting it where the Raptor 1200 had been mounted only minus the extra metal
plate that
raised the mount base high enough for the large air cooled
Raptor controller to clear the motor. Now the area was more compact with a
tidier look.
Tim wrote:
>....when I showed up he was already installing the new Z1K in the big empty
>space where the
> Raptor was. The Zilla is only about half the size, now the 9" motor just
> jumps out at you now.
> John and I were just standing back and admiring the new, even cleaner look
> under the hood...
As Tim pointed out, minus the larger size of the old controller and with the
small profile
of the mighty mite water-cooled Zilla taking its place, the under-hood view is
more show
worthy. The ADC 9 inch motor is now more clearly in view, and even after 11
years of
service, it still looks as new. In addition to the obvious performance increase
that 176
kw gives over 135 kw....17 Orbitals pulled down to 10.38V per module with a
1000 amp draw
(est. voltage sag) vs 13 Optimas pulled down to 10.38V per module with a 1000
amp draw
(actual measured voltage sag), and with the resultant range increase that a 680
lb. pack
will give over a 585 lb. pack in this light weight car, this latest upgrade to
my favorite
EV is also my chance to make the presentation of the car even better. So, even
with the
mods done by Tim and I to get the car ready for the Saturday car show, it's all
going to
be redone 'again' when the new battery pack is
installed. This puts an exclamation mark on the pressure this show put on me,
as I did
mostly everything knowing it was all for a one day EVent! It was important to
do though,
for several reasons. It made me get back to the Blue Meanie renovation project,
it pleased
a very good friend of mine at work, Rick Glover, having the car at this show
since he had
invited me to bring it, and, it was one of those high profile car shows that
attracts huge
numbers of folks...a chance to really fly the EV flag. Another cool visual
point, is that
Rick's '53 Chevy sedan is painted 'Lemon Ice', a bright hotrod type yellow and
next to
Blue Meanie's Royal Blue with violet pearl, the two cars compliment each other.
Again, as Tim pointed out, we didn't finish the car before we ran out of time
on Thursday night:
>We decided to call it a night. 5:30 AM Friday morning I headed back to the
>Wayland house
>to get a little more work done >on the car before the trip to central Oregon.
>When I
>arrived John was just finishing the wiring
Friday, Tim Brehm and I had prearranged to take the day off from wrenching on
forklifts. I
started early by myself, wanting to be alone to finish up Hairball wiring and
other items
under the hood. I was starting to relax a bit, because at 8-ish in the morning,
I could
see the car might just be ready in time for the show, but only if Tim and I
could get
together early Saturday morning to complete things. Tim arrived, then we were
joined by
two of our zany EV friends from up north, Rich 'Madman' Rudman and Don 'Father
Time'
Crabtree. Blue Meanie time has run out, and it's now time to shift gears and
start Friday's Redmond trip.
The four of us had the Jeep and trailer ready for our 300+ mile round trip up
and over Mt.
Hood to the Bend-Redmond central Oregon area and took off after a fun breakfast
together.
We got back into Portland late Friday night after a long and intense
one-dayer...more on
this adventure in another post. Rudman departed and headed to his parents house
in
Newberg, where his dad creates beautiful metal pieces for the PFC line of
chargers, Tim
left for his drive home, and Father Time crashed on the couch left vulnerable
to Clyde the
bad cat.
I was up early on Saturday, in a bit of a panic as Blue Meanie had still not
been powered
up, its interior was still in pieces, the exterior was in need of a wash and
polish job,
and the car still needed to be loaded onto and secured to the trailer....too
much to do! I
concentrated on finishing the under hood wiring, and by the time Tim arrived
and FT had
gotten ready from his cat-disturbed sleep, it was time to test the car.
>From Tim:
>He took off down the road with tires squealing until we lost sight of him.
>After
> about ten minutes came rolling silently up the road. John jumps out of the
> car "I forgot
> how much fun this little car is" with the EV grin he lost about a month ago
> on his face. With the new Zilla working
> perfect...the car was loaded onto the trailer for the trip to the show.
What more can I say about Otmar's fantastic controllers, that I haven't already
said? The
first time I twisted the key, it worked exactly as designed, did its precharge
thing,
clicked-in the contactor, and I was off and running. It has a very smooth
throttle
response, at first giving the impression that the controller 'might' be a low
powered
unit...that is, under you stab the pedal down and suddenly, the tires are
squealing and
there's that shove back into the seat! Yeah, my EV grin was back, big time.
In a nicely orchestrated display of teamwork, we swarmed over Blue Meanie and
got it pretty
much put together. In went the console, even though none of its electronics
were hooked
up, loose carpet pieces were recemented in place, carpets were vacuumed, and
moist bath
towels made quick work of the shop dust and brought out the luster of the paint
again. A
bit of Armoral was sprayed on the tires, and the wheels were spiffed up with
the Greek-approved
Windex. We got the car onto the trailer and as I was inside putting on more
suitable
clothes for the show, FT and Tim finished up securing the car to the
trailer...whew, we
made it!
>From Tim:
> We arrived at the car show almost on time....and we drove through the gates
> with all the classic muscle cars. There
> was a large group of people around the car all day.
Blue Meanie was a big hit, as it usually is, and it delivered what I've always
referred to
as its 1-2-3 punch. Punch 1, is the fact that it's a clean and straight,
gleaming little
Datsun 1200 sedan, a nearly forgotten econobox from the early seventies and
something that
you just don't see every day. It's nice paint job, perfect condition alloys,
Armoralled
black LRR tires, and custom interior touches punctuated by the in your face
stereo system,
attracts even hard core American iron folks. Next to Rick's gorgeous bright
yellow '53
Chevy, Blue Meanie looked sharp. Punch 2, is when they look into the open
engine bay and
spot lots of batteries, gold plated connectors, tidy wiring looms, funny looking
'electronic' boxes, and an electric motor...damn, this thing's an electric car!
Punch 2
continues when you hit the remote, the trunk lid pops open, and with the press
of another
remote button, the motorized rear battery tray starts
humming and out slides 7 more batteries in view. Punch 3, is when they either
learn about
its stunning acceleration performance, or, they witness it first hand.
>From Tim:
> While leaving, with the sounds of loud exhaust and huge engines all around
> us, everyone had their eyes on this
> little blue car, silently cruising toward the exit gate. John could not
> resist, all those eyes on his car doubting that
> little electric motor they had been staring at all day, he had to let just a
> little smoke out of the tires on the way through
> the gate. The crowd went wild!!
Well, it didn't go quite like that, nice try. Tim :-) What actually happened,
was all day
long, I was taunted by Tim, my brother Roger who had stopped by, and countless
show goers,
to take the car to an open area and do a smoke'n burnoff. As Tim pointed out,
there were
more than a few who had doubts about the claimed performance level of a
'battery car'. A
few were shown the video of White Zombie blowing off the V8 Mustang last year,
and this
pretty much sealed the deal for them.
The entire day, I resisted the requests, opting to behave myself. When we were
leaving the
show with FT sitting next to me, Tim was in the back seat and saying, "Come on
John, light
'em up for these guys." I resisted for the moment, but then I looked over at
the show's
security dudes who were smiling with big approval type grins and spinning their
fingers in
that universal hotrod sign language that says, "Light 'em up." This was more
than I could
take, and so down went my right foot...the Zilla responded instantly, and even
with three
of us loading down my little Datsun, the rear tires spun and scratched at the
pavement
with a very loud continuous squeal. Better than the security dudes, fellow
hotrodders, and
shocked show goers reactions, was the guy sitting next to me, Father Time, as
his wry grin
vaguely cloaked by his long white flowing beard could be seen as his sign of
"Cool".
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
