EV Digest 4378
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: General Radio Type W20H 220v dual variac on one shaft. What can this
baby do?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Another Newbie Charging Question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: General Radio Type W20H 220v dual variac on one shaft. What can this
baby do
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: You need a welder
by "Jeff & Diane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: You need a welder
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: New battery question
by "Jeff & Diane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) TdS Report #52: Team Profile: The Olympian
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) TdS Report #53: Photos - The Olympian
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) CEF and AGMs.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: You need a welder - not a bad discussion at all
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: You need a welder
by Tony McCormick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: You need a welder - not a bad discussion at all
by Tony McCormick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: You need a welder
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: You need a welder
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: You need a welder
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: You need a welder - not a bad discussion at all
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: You need a welder
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) TdS Report #54: Team Profile: Woodstock
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) TdS Report #55: Photos - Woodstock
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) The tantalizing high voltage future
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Another Newbie Charging Question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: You need a welder
by Tony McCormick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Simple testing question, but major baby steps for me
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Overvoltage to overcome crystallization
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: You need a welder
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> Two 8 amp 220 variac's on one shaft. Can I pump the same 220v line in to
> both and get 16 amps at 300v? These are rated at 8 amps each. Can I
> parallel the output?
I wouldn't. Unless they are perfectly synchronized, they can "fight"
each other, and produce a large fault current. If you must parallel them
anyway, then put separate fuses in each one's brush connection -- this
fuse will blow if the two knobs are not precisely in the same position.
--
"*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world."
-- Mahatma Ghandi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Zach wrote:
>
> Lee:
>
> What would you set the CEF to for say AGMs? I used to use a CEF of 90%,
> but of course I burned up that pack via overcharge. Nowadays I have the
> E-meter set to 95% CEF, and that seems to mesh up cleanly with a full
> pack (maybe 0 to .1ah when the Magnecharger kicks off.
For AGMs I set it (or let it set itself) to 0.95 to 0.99. The higher end
is for new, healthy batteries, and the lower number for older batteries.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Ghandi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: General Radio Type W20H 220v dual variac on one shaft. What
can this baby do?
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 12:13:11 -0700
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> Two 8 amp 220 variac's on one shaft. Can I pump the same 220v line in
to
> both and get 16 amps at 300v? These are rated at 8 amps each. Can I
> parallel the output?
I wouldn't. Unless they are perfectly synchronized, they can "fight"
each other, and produce a large fault current. If you must parallel them
anyway, then put separate fuses in each one's brush connection -- this
fuse will blow if the two knobs are not precisely in the same position.
--
"*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world."
-- Mahatma Ghandi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
OR, rectify each section's output individually before combining. Then they
can't fight each other and produce a large fault current - the worst that
can happen is that one section takes all of the load.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You know... From a newbie point of view I find this whole tirade about
welding to be sophomoric at best. I can't believe a bunch of EV hobbyists
and professional developers could possibly go on for so long inputting such
ridiculous opinions without a spec of open mindedness that I thought this
group had when I first started reading these posts 2 months ago.
Frankly, I find it insulting.
The bottom line that every one of you on this DL should accept is that:
1) Welding is not everyone's bag.
2) It's cheaper to buy a welder and weld the battery boxes yourself.
3) Yes a Harbor Freight welder will work for the EV hobbyist but not for
the professional welder that does it for a living. I'm sure that there are
many people who could provide testimony to that fact.
4) Anyone willing to put some effort into building an EV should at least
consider learning to weld. It's really not that difficult regardless of
what some would have you believe.
5) But most importantly... and I definitely fit in this category as well...
Opinions are like A$$holes... Everyone has one but some smell worse than
others. And I add that with a grin ;-)
Jeff "newbie" Wilson
Building a grin :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu and Jan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: You need a welder (On the cheap)
Buy a set of Oxy/Acet welding outfit from HF or on Ebay ~ $100
Buy a small Oxygen tank from your local gas supplier ~ $70
(If you are lucky find a used 5 LPM @ 9PSI respiratory Oxygen generator for
about $100, [$200 is more realistic]).
Use your already owned BB tank or buy a standard BBQ propane tank ~ $30
Buy a pound of 1/8" Dia fluxed brazing rod ~ $10 HF.
You will be able to braze, not weld. You will also be able to solder any
lug size.
BoyntonStu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: You need a welder
In a message dated 5/21/05 9:12:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<<
>
>Frankly, I would love to own a MIG, but $$$ are an obstacle,
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=55236
This $379 unit will do everything you need for a conversion. Add
the C-25 mix bottle and you are ready to MIG weld. You can run flux-core
without buying the gas bottle. (It is a little bit harder to master
flux-core welding, but not a lot harder.)
>>Bill
and others on the list I would recommend any of these CHEAP 110 volt mig
welders from harbor freight. I receive multiple calls on these each week and
refuse
to repair them because they always come back broken again.
Generally the dioeds short
out due to operator error (inexperienced operators short the tip to ground
or
exceed the duty cycle)
They also make mig welding more difficult due to
the lack of a capacitor (for filling the ac ripple) and contactor (tip is
always hot)
Most of these units have a max 70 amp output at a 5% to
10% duty cycle (welders are rated in 10 minute periods).
Also these units do not have gas solenoids making nice welds more
difficult,
and aluminum welding impossible.
I would suggest
the Miller brand, Hobart brand (made by Miller) or the Lincoln 110 volt
units.
They all have 20% duty cycle, gas solenoids and either mechanical or
electronic
contactors.The ones with contactors and transformer taps are the least
expensive up front and cheapest to repair out of warranty. Average price
$575. +
bottle of gas.
Also if you are
welding steel with these smaller welders use pure CO2, you will get more
penetration per watt used.
C25 gas will give better
astetics and less cleanup but less penetration per watt.<<
I built the Wabbit and put a turbo-charged Subaru engine in a Ghia
using a less expensive MIG welder than the one above.
>>
I am happy I do not follow your vehicle being welded with less than 70 amps
and 16 volts as this is the max outputs of these cheap China made welders.<<
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)= >>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to agree that that adaquate mig welding skills
can be picked up rather quickly. often in less than an
hour. I have had some students who have laid down
beautiful welds the first time.(it was usually the
girls) However that being said. Being able to weld
doesn't mean that you know how to design a proper
joint. I believe that joint design is the most
important skill in fabricating anything. I have seen
more failures do to bad joint design than bad welding.
Most of the work that home converters will be doing,
like battery boxes, is not that critical. From what
I've seen from peoples pictures of their projects,
most of the stuff is over designed anyway. and even a
crappy weld would be adaquate.
just my two cents..
Gadget
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Lee.
Food for thought.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 2:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New battery question
Jeff & Diane wrote:
> Most of the applications I've seen in the EV web site of all you
> experienced builders shows that you always mount your SLA batteries
> standing up. Suppose you have a particular application that only
> has about 7 or 8 inches of clearance. Can you mount an SLA battery
> on its side? Will that hurt the battery in any way?
In a pinch, you can mount them on their side. There might be some slight
loss of capacity over time, and there could be problems if the battery
ever vents under fault condition if the terminals are below the vents.
--
"*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world."
-- Mahatma Ghandi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #52: Team Profile: The Olympian
Most of the long-standing participants in the Tour de Sol have stayed with one
school or team. But this year, the Olympian has changed from Cinnaminson High
School to Burlington County Institute of Technology (BCIT) and Burlington
County College (BCC). The constant is Ollie Perry, who taught at Cinnaminson
and now advises this team. (Oliver is a founding member of the Northeastern
Electric Vehicle Club (NEEVC), which celebrates its 25th anniversary this
year.)
"Our new group is called the Burlington County Electro-Techs, shortened to
ElecTechs. It's a collaboration between BCIT, a vocational high school, and
BCC, and anyone else who wants to be involved with our organization. We like
to call it a partnership. It's only been in operation a month. I came in,
looking for a home for the electric car. I had been involved with Jack Braun
at BCC for many years, with my students going there and his students helping on
the high school project, that it seemed natural to move there when Cinnaminson
lost interest in continuing after I left. So now the car is titled and insured
to BCIT.
"BCC already had a Mercury Cougar that they have been converting; it is nearly
completed. Another NEEVC member, Paul Kydd, has been working with lithium-ion
batteries for use in electric boats." There are plans to put lithium-ion into
the Cougar and maybe the Olympian. "With this consortium, we're hoping to get
more action and more people involved. It hinges on having someone who can
bring everything together and keep things moving." They need something that
will become self-sustaining. The administration at BCC and the Burlington
County Freeholders and other political connections are all enthusiastic.
"BCIT is teaching automotive technology classes which are also open to adults.
And they realize that there is this new wave, hybrids, and that they have to be
ready for it. We have to expand beyond the old traditional programs."
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #53: Photos - The Olympian
Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005/photos_011.html
The Olympian
<PRE>
Vehicle Name: The Olympian
Vehicle Number: 16
Team Name: Burlington County Electechs
State: New Jersey
Electric: (Battery: GNB PbA)
</PRE>
"The Burlington County Electechs" includes students and instructors
from Burlington County Institute of Technology (BCIT) and Burlington
County College (BCC.) They are entering the Olympian, an electric
vehicle recently donated by Cinnaminson High School. The team is
committed to preparing students for vocations in the high tech
automotive and related industries, including the economic, social, and
health related benefits of greener transportation.
Ollie Perry is particularly proud of the ElecTechs logo,
done by a former student of his.
Under the hood.
The battery box is visible in the back of the car.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If the CEF for AGMs really is between 95 and 99%, then I might want to
back my charging algorythm down even more.
Back in the old days I assumed a CEF of .90 and thus followed the Hawker
"Charge full blast to 15.0vpb, then drop back but charge to 15.7 and
hold it there for 50 mins" routine. Wound up cooking my batteries (that
pile is now happy since it was re-watered actually but I have another pack).
Currently I charge full blast (10amp, could go to 18) to 350 volts (300v
52ah pack) then ramp down at 350 to 2amp rate, then charge at 1.5a to
375 volts, then hold for 10 minutes at .5a then terminate.
Using this and a 95% CEF on the E-meter results in a end of charge count
from 0 to +.1 to -.1ah. Right around perfect. I might still be
overcharging a bit; maybe I should take the 375 down to 367.5 or so. But
I was thinking the 375 (15vpb) would give me that bit of
overcharge/equalize at that C/20 rate which should be handled by the
battery recombiners.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You know... From a newbie point of view I find this whole tirade about
welding to be sophomoric at best. I can't believe a bunch of EV hobbyists
and professional developers could possibly go on for so long inputting such
ridiculous opinions without a spec of open mindedness that I thought this
group had when I first started reading these posts 2 months ago.
Frankly, I find it insulting.
Actually, I have found this discussion relatively refreshing:
1. It's on topic ( about building EV's)
2, It's included useful comments about what kind of welding (or brazing) is
better and why - and what types and brands of equipment to use (and avoid).
3. No one has invoked religion,
4. No mention of politics
5. No one has been called a sprout-eater, Nazi, or ( my favorite) "natzie",
And, it has gotten me thinking about buying a MIG welder and learning how to
weld.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Problem is I have 3 expensive hobbies..... and 2 kids in college... :-)
Tony
"Welcome to the dawn of a new error"
http://www.notebene.net/philosophy.html
darren wrote:
really? You can't aford a hobbie if $400 in tools is too high, lol
Thank You
................................
www.12voltguy.com
SeaBass44/~Darren
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony McCormick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: You need a welder
Don't know about you, but $375 is a ton of money to me.
Thanks for the info, though.
Tony
"Welcome to the dawn of a new error"
http://www.notebene.net/philosophy.html
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Frankly, I would love to own a MIG, but $$$ are an obstacle,
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=55236
This $379 unit will do everything you need for a conversion.
Add the C-25 mix bottle and you are ready to MIG weld. You can run
flux-core without buying the gas bottle. (It is a little bit harder
to master flux-core welding, but not a lot harder.)
I built the Wabbit and put a turbo-charged Subaru engine in
a Ghia using a less expensive MIG welder than the one above.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since I inadvertantly started the thread, I have to agree with Philip....
Tony
Philip Marino wrote:
Actually, I have found this discussion relatively refreshing:
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:54 PM 5/21/2005, you wrote:
Don't know about you, but $375 is a ton of money to me.
Thanks for the info, though.
The typical EV conversion cost is over $5000. The cost of a welder
is a fraction of this total cost and is recouped during the conversion
process. You can sell it when you are done, and save even more money on
your conversion.
$379 is much less than the difference in price between buying
pre-made (or custom made) battery racks and motor mounts and making them
yourself. Also, you can weld in the racks. This is faster and (typically)
stronger than bolting them in, especially in a uni-body car.
Personally, I'd rather buy a hammer and saw than hire a carpenter
to build a shed. You learn a new skill while you are saving money. Nothing
wrong with that.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Perfect summary
The bottom line that every one of you on this DL should accept is that:
1) Welding is not everyone's bag.
2) It's cheaper to buy a welder and weld the battery boxes yourself.
3) Yes a Harbor Freight welder will work for the EV hobbyist but not for
the professional welder that does it for a living. I'm sure that there are
many people who could provide testimony to that fact.
4) Anyone willing to put some effort into building an EV should at least
consider learning to weld. It's really not that difficult regardless of
what some would have you believe.
5) But most importantly... and I definitely fit in this category as well...
Opinions are like A$$holes... Everyone has one but some smell worse than
others. And I add that with a grin ;-)
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If Anyboby out here in Los Angeles want to weld, come
on by and I'll teach ya.
Gadget
--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 10:54 PM 5/21/2005, you wrote:
> >Don't know about you, but $375 is a ton of money to
> me.
> >Thanks for the info, though.
>
> The typical EV conversion cost is over
> $5000. The cost of a welder
> is a fraction of this total cost and is recouped
> during the conversion
> process. You can sell it when you are done, and save
> even more money on
> your conversion.
>
> $379 is much less than the difference in
> price between buying
> pre-made (or custom made) battery racks and motor
> mounts and making them
> yourself. Also, you can weld in the racks. This is
> faster and (typically)
> stronger than bolting them in, especially in a
> uni-body car.
>
> Personally, I'd rather buy a hammer and saw
> than hire a carpenter
> to build a shed. You learn a new skill while you are
> saving money. Nothing
> wrong with that.
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One more from me- This ongoing discussion has got me inspired to buy!
Although I already own a Miller Synchrowave TIG and some Victor
oxy/acetelene stuff, I'm beginning to see the light coming from a future MIG
machine. Better put on my face shield and pick up the phone.
(I plan on buying locally)
Happy zapping!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tony McCormick
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 12:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: You need a welder - not a bad discussion at all
Since I inadvertantly started the thread, I have to agree with Philip....
Tony
Philip Marino wrote:
>
> Actually, I have found this discussion relatively refreshing:
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are serious about MIG welding you need a 240-volt machine.
The 120-volt machines which use an ordinary 20-amp outlet just
can't provide enough heat for good weld penetration except in very
thin material. One can produce welds that look good but don't
penetrate the joints and provide good strength. An experienced
welder can produce adequate welds with an underpowered machine
but a beginner cannot.
I started MIG welding with a 120-volt machine, but when it died a few
years later I replaced it with a 240-volt machine. The difference was
remarkable. It's wonderful to have enough heat for complete joint
penetration.
I've always recommended that beginners should have good equipment.
It's a shame to be up against the double handicap of inexperience and poor
eqipment. So if you want to do MIG welding, get 240-volt power into
your shop if you don't have it already and get a 240-volt machine. If
you're not willing or able to get a 240-volt machine, forget about doing
serious MIG welding. That 240-volt power is also useful for battery
charging.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #54: Team Profile: Woodstock
This bright yellow battery electric pickup truck, which gets its name from the
Peanuts cartoon character, continues its message that driving on totally green,
renewable energy is possible today. Ken Wells is the faculty advisor to the
team. I asked him what is new this year.
"The composition of the team is more girls than boys, this year. Our emphasis
has shifted slightly, from wrenches to chemistry, of the atmosphere, and the
environmental angle. And the kids are interested in political activism. It's
a broader appeal. We've also figured out a way to power easily using 100%
renewable, zero emission electricity from the grid. And everybody else could
if they knew about it. We're going to be telling the public and handing them
things that send them to www.green-e.org .
"We're telling them that it is not the electrons that you are buying. You are
not buying any substance. You're buying the pull on the other end of the rope,
not the rope. When you buy green electricity, like we are buying Kansas wind
power, we're paying to have our portion of electricity that we withdrew from
the grid replaced. So it is green, and clean, and zero emission." In years
past the analogy was based on the Automated Teller Machines. The dollar bills
you get are not the ones put in when you got paid, but the value they represent
is your's.
The team has a couple of demonstrations that make the point and to explain to
really little kids what energy is and how it works.
Matt Flagg told me what was new on the truck. "We got new solar panels from
Evergreen Solar, that are 115 Watts each, that is a significant boast over last
year. They provide a trickle-charge to the batteries. A lot of people think
they are what powers the truck, but of course they are only supplementing what
we get from the grid."
What do you like about being on this team? "The think I like about our car is
it isn't just a cool science project. Woodstock is just like anything in
anybody's garage, except it is electric and it's clean. People can imagine
that they could drive something like this."
Matt is a sophomore, so I asked what is next. "Mr. Wells bought a VW and is
setting up a system in his garage to make biodiesel to run it. We're doing
things like converting a water heater into something were we can do the
chemical reactions. It's not as hard as people think to be clean.
"Mr. Wells is putting in all this curriculum that wasn't there, bringing these
issues up, and getting the school into things like this. We had a car at the
beginning of this year showing that this is not out-of-this-world stuff. It's
far more practical.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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TdS Report #55: Photos - Woodstock
Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005/photos_012.html
Woodstock
<PRE>
Vehicle Name: Woodstock
Vehicle Number: 56
Team Name: St. Mark's Electric Vehicle Club
State: Massachusetts
1994 Ford Ranger conversion
Electric: (Battery: Trojan PbA)
</PRE>
"Woodstock" is a true zero emission vehicle. It runs on 100% renewable
electricity! This yellow 1994 Ranger was converted to run on battery
power by high school students at St. Mark's School. Woodstock's
batteries recharge overnight with wind-generated electricity from the
grid. Built by physics students, the project gives them an opportunity
to explore what engineering would be like, and the importance of efficiency.
Under the hood is the controller, the motor and some batteries.
The team gets ready to go through technical inspection.
The bumper sticker says "Powered by American Electrons".
All the vehicles plugged into the generator set were using renewable sources.
The generator was fueled with biodiesel.
"Renewable Row" at the Saratoga Spring Autoshow featured Woodstock,
rEVolutionride.org and
the Solar Black Bear (with the large tilted solar panel in the distance).
Each is a practical battery-electric vehicle recharged by a renewable source.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
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Just did some measuring, playing with some numbers since it doesn't
cost anything to daydream...
You've seen how many AGM's are in John Waylands Datsun's and they can
handle the weight. I've measured my car and I could fit 28 AGM's in
the back seat and trunk area at a weight of 1,120 lbs, and a cost of
~$2,800 and a pack voltage of 336 volts. Sure I could fit one more a
battery for a 248 volt system, but it messes up my layout since it
makes it an odd number..
What I like is that it's "only" 28 batteries and they are locally
available, and they don't require a BMS. Sure the price could be a
lot better; nobody likes the price. The weight though.. That's a lot
of lead.
Now just for fun, since these are a bit more conventional compared to
the Kokams, I figured out how many would fit, the weight, and the pack
voltage..
http://www.metricmind.com/battery.htm
The TS-LP6163A in particular. It's roughly 2" thick, 4.5" wide, and
7.5" tall and weighs 3 lbs. Unfortunately, it's only 3.6 volts.
Just in my back seat alone, I could mount 3 rows of 24 for 72 of them
at a weight of "only" 216 lbs, and 259 volts. Think about it. That
would currently be equal in weight to two people who each weighed ~100
lbs each sitting in my back seat.
In the trunk, there is enough room for 7 rows of 21 for 147 batteries
at "only" 441 lbs of weight and 529 volts! I think the trunk could
handle 441 lbs of luggage? Consider the gas tank that would no longer
be hanging from the trunk floor. 7 lbs a gallon? 14 gallon tank?
Nearly 100 lbs in fuel. The gas tank weighs a bit by itself. And the
spare tire.. Couldn't the trunk handle ~300 lbs worth of luggage?
So at full capacity, 219 of those batteries, a pack weight of 657
evenly distributed lbs securely mounted, and a pack voltage of 788
volts...
In the future, with weight not an issue and plenty of space, pretty
much "pick a number" as far as pack voltage is concerned...
So there are 650 volt AC motors and inverters..
How high of voltage could the Manzanita Micro chargers be built to
handle? Could a simple BMS be built to work with these Li* batteries
and plug into the Reg Buss that charger has?
Now we're back to price... plenty of AC motors.. The inverter
situation though.. and the battery price issue. $15,000 for a
battery pack is absurd.. Though $2,800 every two or three years for
AGM's adds up.. How many years are those Li* batteries good for?
Just how cheap could the Li* batteries get?
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J.R. Young wrote:
> 22 x 6v Exide 3600 (Sam's Club Batteries)...
> [E-meter CEF] is set at 90... but I don't believe that's the (main)
> problem. It doesn't even come close to returning all the Ah used,
> it returned about 8ah vs the 30ah removed... I'm pretty sure I have
> the PFC-20 voltage trim set too low. I have it set to start the shut
> off timer when the voltage reaches 139.
The fully charged voltage will vary depending on the charging current.
For your 22x6v=132v pack it will be something like:
2.10v/cell = 139v at 0 amps, at least 8 hours after charging
2.25v/cell = 148.5v at 1 amp, on a float charger
2.4v/cell = 158.5v at 5 amps, end of bulk charge, before equalization
2.55v/cell = 168v at 5 amps, at the end of an equalization charge
The higher the voltage, the less time it takes to reach it. For
instance, it will take days for the current to fall under 1 amp at 148v,
but only 1-2 hours to fall under 5 amps at 165v.
Note that as the battery ages, all these currents go up and the voltages
go down. For example, a tired old abused battery might be:
2.06v/cell = 136v at 0 amps, at least 8 hours after charging
2.20v/cell = 145v at 2 amps, on a float charger
2.37v/cell = 156v at 10 amps, at end of bulk charge, before equalization
2.45v/cell = 162v at 10 amps, at the end of an equalization charge
As if this isn't complicated enough, the charging voltage also has a
temperature coefficient of -0.003 to -0.005v/cell/deg.C. That is, for
each 1 deg.C your battery is above 25 deg.C, reduce the voltages
0.003-0.005. Go in the opposite direction (higher charge voltages) for
cold batteries. For example, 2.4v/cell=158.5v at 25 deg.C becomes
2.5v/cell at 0 deg.C.
> So I think the question is, when my PFC-20 is in the main charge
> cycle (charging at 19.5 amps), what target voltage should I be
> aiming for to start the shut off timer?
19.5 amps is a *bulk* charging rate. You're nowhere near 100% SOC at
this current. You have to wait until the current falls to 5-10 amps (as
described above) before the battery is nominally at 100% SOC. Then start
the timer, for a time depending on how much you want/need to equalize.
I think the PFC-chargers are constant-current bulk, then
constant-voltage finish. So, set the bulk current as high as your AC
outlet allows. Set the finish voltage to 156-158.5v, depending on
battery age and temperature.
--
"*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world."
-- Mahatma Ghandi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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I, in general agree with that, only so much one can do, though, and I'm
way past the need for a welder for my EV work, but I'll keep trying to
come up with a good excuse and someday I'll spring for one....
Tony
"Welcome to the dawn of a new error"
http://www.notebene.net/philosophy.html
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 10:54 PM 5/21/2005, you wrote:
Don't know about you, but $375 is a ton of money to me.
Thanks for the info, though.
The typical EV conversion cost is over $5000. The cost of a
welder is a fraction of this total cost and is recouped during the
conversion process. You can sell it when you are done, and save even
more money on your conversion.
$379 is much less than the difference in price between buying
pre-made (or custom made) battery racks and motor mounts and making
them yourself. Also, you can weld in the racks. This is faster and
(typically) stronger than bolting them in, especially in a uni-body car.
Personally, I'd rather buy a hammer and saw than hire a
carpenter to build a shed. You learn a new skill while you are saving
money. Nothing wrong with that.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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A full length of wire from a small diameter hanger will draw 150 amps from a
12 volt battery.
If you submerge it in water, it will survive until it rusts through.
Start the motor at a low voltage (tap the pack) and run it up in voltage
until it goes as fast as you want it to go. I predict that 24 volts is too
much voltage for an unloaded 9 inch motor.
You need to try lower voltages to be sure.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 6:35 AM
Subject: Re: Simple testing question, but major baby steps for me
> I believe Joe Smalley has suggested (in the past) using a steel
> coathanger as a load for a quick battery load test. (Correct me if I
> am wrong, Joe!) I suspect that using one or two in series would limit
> the inrush current. And once up to speed, it shouldn't get too hot, I
> bet. And I THINK that 24V is low enough that a 9" ADC will not run
> away. But check on that one.
>
> Joe, Madman, Lee or others could comment on this.
>
> Seth
>
>
> On May 20, 2005, at 3:06 PM, Dave Cover wrote:
>
> > I need to bench test a motor with my new pack but I'm not sure the
> > best way to do it. I have a 9"
> > ADC that hasn't been run in a long time and I want to hook it up to a
> > new mini pack I've put
> > together. The pack is made up of 20 1.2 volt NiCad cells that have
> > been charged to a pack voltage
> > of 27 volts. I'm guessing this is to high to connect directly to the
> > motor so I'm looking for a
> > good way to safely run the motor off the pack. I'd like to run the
> > motor so I know it's in
> > reasonable shape before I install it and I'd also like to use the
> > motor to exercise the pack so I
> > can charge it again.
> >
> > How do I safely limit the juice flowing to the motor? (Just voltage or
> > current also?)
> > How low can I safely discharge the pack? (NiCads)
> >
> > I'd prefer not to use long extension cords in buckets of water but...
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave Cover
> >
>
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As you know, my batts. were undercharged for the 1st 9
mos. I'm still trying to get the SG over 1.75.
Nawaz says the way to do it is to give the pack 8A.
But the charger wants to pull current down, and taper
off as voltage ramps to 190V.
To give the batts. that much current, I need to put
the voltage up to let's say 194-196V.
Obviously the goal is more bubbling and gassing; keep
lots of water close at hand. Otherwise, am I going to
damage my batts. by going over 2.65 VPC? I really
want to get this issue resolved!
Appreciatively,
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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At 02:13 PM 5/22/2005, you wrote:
If you are serious about MIG welding you need a 240-volt machine.
For an EV conversion, and general work on a car, a 120 volt
machine works well enough.
I have used the very best and greatest MIG (GMAW) machines at the
welding research lab at NIST. Yes, they are better. You can weld really
thick plates in one pass. They produce less spatter. You hardly ever get a
bird's nest. They are really rugged and hardly ever break down. In an ideal
world where money is no object, I would select the 240 volt top-of-the-line
MIG welder. I would certainly select a 240 volt MIG welder if you would pay
for it. :^)
You can weld everything you need to in a conversion project with a
120 volt MIG welder, and the cost is a fraction of the larger
"professional" 240 volt models. It is the choice that makes sense for a
person doing a conversion.
The 120-volt machines which use an ordinary 20-amp outlet just
can't provide enough heat for good weld penetration except in very
thin material.
Great for welding 1/8" thick angle iron for battery boxes. Great
for welding 14 gauge steel sheet metal, like they make cars out of. No good
for welding boilers, bridge I-beams, and oil pipelines, but that is OK.
One can produce welds that look good but don't
penetrate the joints and provide good strength.
You can do this with the most expensive welding machine made. :^)
In addition to my 120 volt MIG welder, I have a 240 volt input,
375 amp output, HF TIG and stick, inverter style welder. Nice unit.
However, my 120 volt MIG is my first choice if it is suitable for the
specific job. Why? Because it is more portable, quicker to set up, simpler
to use, and welds faster than the more expensive "better" welder.
I lent my MIG welder to a pal, so today I used the TIG welder to
build an engine stand bracket for a Renesis engine that I plan to put in my
airplane. Good practice for me, but much, much slower than the MIG welder.
I can't really lend my TIG/Stick welder because it needs 240
volts. My Sears MIG welder plugs in anywhere.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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