EV Digest 4381
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Fwd: Re: EV Transmissions
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Bench testing an ADC 9"
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) NEDRA Question, was Re: Sad State of EV eCommerce
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Bench testing an ADC 9"
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: NEDRA Question, was Re: Sad State of EV eCommerce
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) What does huge battery V sag under small load mean?
by "Jamie Marshall \(GAMES\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV conversion tiny car _ Battery Trailer required?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Can this possibly work (for an EV)?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) my welding 2 cents
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) TdS Report #56: Monte Carlo Rally: Just for Fun
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) TdS Report #57: Photos - Mercedes Benz diesel runs on vegetable oil
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) RE: Can this possibly work (for an EV)?
by "Ed Koffeman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Can this possibly work (for an EV)?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: TdS Report #56: Monte Carlo Rally: Just for Fun
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: What does huge battery V sag under small load mean?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: On Welding
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Freedom EV progress, disc brakes parts needed
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: TdS Report #56: Monte Carlo Rally: Just for Fun
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: On Welding
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Bench testing an ADC 9'
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Freedom EV progress, disc brakes parts needed
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Veggy oil (was TdS Report #56: Monte Carlo Rally: Just for Fun)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: You need a welder
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Eric and All,
--- Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> These guys make 2 speed gearboxes for spindles, as
> well.
>
> http://www.andantex.com/msd.html
Now that's a great gear box!! The motor inline
version is just how I see using the Powerglide
gearset, just need to build the housing for it it
seems.
Can anyone get the price for the inline version
of this?
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
> Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> >Hi Jerry, ZF make a 2-speed, solenoid operated
> gearbox for machine
> >tools. Might be useful, might not..
> >
>
>http://www.daviesmarketing.com/full_release.asp?compnameid=44&releaseid=506
> >
> >Regards
> >Evan
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1 - What's the max voltage that you can safely run an ADC 9" on the bench with?
2 - What the best way to step down a 27 volt pack to this voltage for bench
testing?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 1:46 PM
> > To address a few of your concerns: you CAN race if you are a member in
> > good standing regardless of whether you have your membership card.
> > Before the races this year, the race coordinators will have current
> > membership lists, and those on the list may race without presenting a
> > card. Those who are not members may purchase a membership at the
> > racetrack (of a NEDRA-sponsored race) on race day (before the race
> > begins).
So if I understand you correctly Dean that if a fellow shows up at a NEDRA
sponsored race with his ready to race EV he will HAVE to be a NEDRA member
in order to compete? David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About 18 volts with a Nuetral timing, About 16 volts Advanced
Large resistor.... AKA coat hangers.... or steel strapping.
There are better ways...None cheaper.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Bench testing an ADC 9"
> 1 - What's the max voltage that you can safely run an ADC 9" on the bench
with?
>
> 2 - What the best way to step down a 27 volt pack to this voltage for
bench testing?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
All EVs that pass tech/safety inspection may compete at a
NEDRA-sponsored event. Only NEDRA members can set official NEDRA
records. The membership must be in effect at the beginning of the race.
This has always been the official NEDRA rule. We may have been somewhat
lax on it at times, but we are trying to be more consistent in following
this rule in the future.
Again, I want to be sure I am clear (since I wasn't so clear in the last
post): any EV that meets tech/safety inspection can race in a NEDRA
race, regardless of membership status. However, if you want to be able
to set a record, you must be a NEDRA member in good standing.
There is no official NEDRA policy to qualify for any race-day prizes
that may be offered, as these prizes vary from event to event (and some
events have no awards/prizes). For example, at Woodburn, there is
usually a "Best Burnout" prize. Generally, though, I would expect these
to be available only to NEDRA members, as well, although it is up to the
individual race coordinator or whomever sets up or donates the prizes.
Sorry for any confusion.
Dean
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My sparrow has the standard pack of 13 optima yellow tops. I replaced
the last pack at 8k miles when they lost equalization in a bad way. I
was a serious newbie and I'm not even sure now what happened exactly to
that pack. I thought I would do better with the new one, but alas. Any
help would be appreciated:
My new pack has been used very regularly as such:
18 ah commute twice a day. (16 miles)
Charge after each commute. (some days I forget to plug it in, so it
does sit discharged for 24-48 hours on occasion).
Charging with a zivan NG3.
I have Battery Angels from Ed Ang installed since the pack was less than
1k miles old.
I have a 'zilla 1k, so I can draw some real amps at times.
I now have 7k miles on the new pack.
In the winter I started having problems with the voltage sagging way
more than I wanted. But I chalked it up to the cold, and figured it
would get better with summer. I adjusted my controller settings to be a
little more conservative, and so used less amp hours per commute. Even
so I had days when I would start to hit my low voltage limit as I
approached home (it was set to 140v).
But now it's nice and hot, and the problem has gotten even worse. This
morning I was 1 mile from work, and I had already drawn 20 ah from the
pack (all numbers from my emeter). I was drawing 40 amps and getting
130 volts! When I let off the throttle, the pack quickly recovered to
160+ volts. But I was scared to draw too many more amps for fear of
reversing a cell or something. (is this a real danger?)
So what is causing this? Is it simple age? Is it sulfation?
My first concern is can how can I squeeze the most life out of this
pack. A new set of batteries ever 7-8k miles is just not going to fly
on the budget.
I also am wondering how low I can let the pack sag. Am I just being
paranoid about reversing a cell?
Any advice at all would be greatly appreciated.
-Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 5:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Another Newbie Charging Question
J.R. Young wrote:
> 22 x 6v Exide 3600 (Sam's Club Batteries)...
> [E-meter CEF] is set at 90... but I don't believe that's the (main)
> problem. It doesn't even come close to returning all the Ah used,
> it returned about 8ah vs the 30ah removed... I'm pretty sure I have
> the PFC-20 voltage trim set too low. I have it set to start the shut
> off timer when the voltage reaches 139.
The fully charged voltage will vary depending on the charging current.
For your 22x6v=132v pack it will be something like:
2.10v/cell = 139v at 0 amps, at least 8 hours after charging
2.25v/cell = 148.5v at 1 amp, on a float charger
2.4v/cell = 158.5v at 5 amps, end of bulk charge, before equalization
2.55v/cell = 168v at 5 amps, at the end of an equalization charge
The higher the voltage, the less time it takes to reach it. For
instance, it will take days for the current to fall under 1 amp at 148v,
but only 1-2 hours to fall under 5 amps at 165v.
Note that as the battery ages, all these currents go up and the voltages
go down. For example, a tired old abused battery might be:
2.06v/cell = 136v at 0 amps, at least 8 hours after charging
2.20v/cell = 145v at 2 amps, on a float charger
2.37v/cell = 156v at 10 amps, at end of bulk charge, before equalization
2.45v/cell = 162v at 10 amps, at the end of an equalization charge
As if this isn't complicated enough, the charging voltage also has a
temperature coefficient of -0.003 to -0.005v/cell/deg.C. That is, for
each 1 deg.C your battery is above 25 deg.C, reduce the voltages
0.003-0.005. Go in the opposite direction (higher charge voltages) for
cold batteries. For example, 2.4v/cell=158.5v at 25 deg.C becomes
2.5v/cell at 0 deg.C.
> So I think the question is, when my PFC-20 is in the main charge
> cycle (charging at 19.5 amps), what target voltage should I be
> aiming for to start the shut off timer?
19.5 amps is a *bulk* charging rate. You're nowhere near 100% SOC at
this current. You have to wait until the current falls to 5-10 amps (as
described above) before the battery is nominally at 100% SOC. Then start
the timer, for a time depending on how much you want/need to equalize.
I think the PFC-chargers are constant-current bulk, then
constant-voltage finish. So, set the bulk current as high as your AC
outlet allows. Set the finish voltage to 156-158.5v, depending on
battery age and temperature.
--
"*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world."
-- Mahatma Ghandi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All things being equal, if you drive somewhat aggressively and value strong
acceleration, AGM batteries are the way to go. If you are looking for lowest
cost per mile of operation, and tend to drive fairly moderately, flooded golf
car
batteries will deliver.
However, in a very small car you're limited in the number of golf car batteries
you can carry (weight and volume). This tends to push you toward smaller
12v marine type batteries. Flooded 12v marine batteries are almost always
troublesome, regardless of your driving habits.
So, I'd try to avoid 12 volt marine batteries. The lightest flooded pack I'd
consider for this would be 12 to 15 eight-volt golf car batteries. If that's
too
much weight, you will almost certainly have to use AGMs.
Augmenting a small pack (AGM or flooded) with a larger flooded pack on a
trailer is an excellent idea. You avoid the logistics problems and emission
control challenges of a liquid-fueled genset trailer. The downsides are the
same as with any trailer regardless of what it's carrying: losses from
aerodynamics and rolling resistance, and somewhat awkward handling.
Some years back, Olaf Bleck's Team New England did very well for two Tour
de Sol runs using a Solectria Force with a battery trailer.
http://www.autoauditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2002/#Report46
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am very skeptical about such things - it reminded me
of those crooks selling magnets you're suppose to wrap around
fuel line to increase mileage, but I wanted to hear opinion
of experts in aerodynamics.
http://quantumgravitics.tripod.com/id3.html
As I understand it, anything reducing turbulence
behind moving object will reduce drag; ideally
you want only laminar flow behind. But if rear of a
van is just flat wall, there is very little can be done
to "fill" that spot right behind so the air
will flow around as if there is invisible cone shaped
extension of the body exists. So this wing claims to reduce
turbulence. It seem in wrong spot though - there is no
as much turbulence over the roof as it is right behind
the vehicle, but *if* such thing can deflect the airflow,
it can help some. I'd never believe in reducing
drag TWICE by this method as claimed. May be few percent
but somehow I doubt even that.
Anyone care to comment?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have done stick, tig, mig, and oxy acetyle and a tad of brazing.
I think mig provides an oppurtunity for weak, low penetration welds that
the other types of welding don't . It is special in the way it can lay
down filler without putting too much heat into the work piece. This
really helps when welding thin stuff like body work holes and cracks, etc.
At a higher amerage setting and a little experiance, mig is fast, darn
fast so for production of battery racks, Mig is great,
But the hobbiest isn't doing production. So maybe the tig is the best
compromise, It allows time to think about the puddle and filler and you
see the process, but it is not as slow as oxy acetyl and puts less heat
into the work With practice, a person can make a tig weld as weak as a
begginging mig weld :-) ( I welded an approximate .030 round bead
around a 1" diametr core in mold and when I went to grind the shut off
the whole weld fell off, like a little o-ring. it was halarious) And
lets not forget Tig can do aluminum too, admittidle this requires more
"practice"
Stick is for the big stuff. .
Oxy acetyl is for brazing, silver solder and preheating the alum for
welding. :-)
Always at work I have had access to a big Lincoln welder with HF and
stick/tig +,-,DC or AC and a foot throttle. What would you more
experianced welders recommend for a small TIG unit for EV and general
shop use.?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #56: Monte Carlo Rally: Just for Fun
Some of the entrants to the Monte Carlo Rally got in just for the fun of it.
In Cynthia Shelton's case, they didn't even have a category for her car,
because it runs on vegetable oil. Not biodiesel made from vegetable oil, but
filtered used cooking oil. Why would someone who is a musician, artist and
writer do such a thing? Let's find out.
Her car is a stock 1973 Mercedes Benz 220D; the D stands for diesel. At least
it was stock until "I converted it to run on straight vegetable oil, waste
vegetable oil from the local Asian restaurant. I filter it with a sock from
the local paint store into a five gallon bucket to get out some of the salts
and the chunks. Then I pour it into 24 gallon vegetable oil tank, and it then
goes through a 10 micron filter before it goes up to the front to the engine.
It is heated all along the way by a coolant exchange and an in-line heater."
The conversion is based on a kit from Neoteric Biofuels, Biofuels.ca . "They
are one of three conversion kit makers in the United States. The other ones
are in Drury Missouri, Greasel.com, and one in East Hampton Massachusetts,
Greasecar.com.
"The extra tank was in the car when I bought it. Back in the 1970s, when you
could only fill up every other day, some people cheated by having a bigger tank
and getting their fuel 50 gallons at a pop." The 17 gallon tank is still
there, used for normal diesel fuel. "I insulated the extra tank with some foam
that was lying around.
"We converted it in the first week in January in California. I then drove it
back to Massachusetts via Missouri, Arkansas, Tennessee, and home, on vegetable
oil all the way. I was interviewing industry players along the way, I had
prepared an itinerary that allowed me to pick up oil every couple of days
enough to get to the next stop.
"The car is basicly theft proof because no one knows how to start it." The key
only turns on the electric power. You then _pull_ on the starter control, half
way, until the glow plugs (aka "preheaters") in the cylinders get hot, and then
all the way to crank the starter. "It's a manual shift, which is fairly rare.
And I love it!
"I would like the government and media to acknowledge that this option exists
and stop confusing it with biodiesel, because it is not biodiesel.
"I'm going to do some journalism pieces out of this experience, so watch for
them."
Cynthia has a web site with a history of the car and the first cross country
trip. It is
www.cynxing.com
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #57: Photos - Mercedes Benz diesel runs on vegetable oil
Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005/photos_013.html
Mercedes Benz diesel runs on vegetable oil
Cynthia brought her veggie-Benz to the Tour de Sol display in Saratoga Springs
to tell her story about driving on used cooking oil.
And she got a TdS Monte Carlo Rally trophy for being the oldest car to enter.
<P>
But she was quite surprised when she won an award from the Spring Autoshow
judges for "Best Mercedes".
Cynthia pulls up to win her award from the Saratoga Spring Autoshow.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like absolute crap to me.
There are vortex generators being sold that add energy to the airflow at the
back of transport truck trailers that do appear to work.
Ed Koffeman
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 7:56 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Can this possibly work (for an EV)?
>
> I am very skeptical about such things - it reminded me
> of those crooks selling magnets you're suppose to wrap around
> fuel line to increase mileage, but I wanted to hear opinion
> of experts in aerodynamics.
>
> http://quantumgravitics.tripod.com/id3.html
>
> As I understand it, anything reducing turbulence
> behind moving object will reduce drag; ideally
> you want only laminar flow behind. But if rear of a
> van is just flat wall, there is very little can be done
> to "fill" that spot right behind so the air
> will flow around as if there is invisible cone shaped
> extension of the body exists. So this wing claims to reduce
> turbulence. It seem in wrong spot though - there is no
> as much turbulence over the roof as it is right behind
> the vehicle, but *if* such thing can deflect the airflow,
> it can help some. I'd never believe in reducing
> drag TWICE by this method as claimed. May be few percent
> but somehow I doubt even that.
>
> Anyone care to comment?
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor and All,
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am very skeptical about such things - it reminded
> me
> of those crooks selling magnets you're suppose to
> wrap around
> fuel line to increase mileage, but I wanted to hear
> opinion
> of experts in aerodynamics.
>
> http://quantumgravitics.tripod.com/id3.html
>
> As I understand it, anything reducing turbulence
> behind moving object will reduce drag; ideally
> you want only laminar flow behind. But if rear of a
> van is just flat wall, there is very little can be
> done
> to "fill" that spot right behind so the air
> will flow around as if there is invisible cone
> shaped
Not true, it can easily be done with a foil that
curves inward aft gently about the height their's is
set but not only on the top, but sides too in one
large u shaped foil around the rear. It should only
curve in 10deg over 1'.
> extension of the body exists. So this wing claims to
> reduce
While a good foil there will work wonders, this one
is NOT it!!! It's just a con as it will only add more
drag as it is.
One day I may make a foil kit to do just this. But
the Freedom EV is at the boatbuilder so busy for now
;-))
> turbulence. It seem in wrong spot though - there is
> no
> as much turbulence over the roof as it is right
> behind
> the vehicle, but *if* such thing can deflect the
> airflow,
> it can help some. I'd never believe in reducing
> drag TWICE by this method as claimed. May be few
> percent
> but somehow I doubt even that.
A good rear foil set with front, side air dams
could cut aero drag 25%. But this one probably adds
10%!!!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> Anyone care to comment?
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS_Reports wrote:
> Her car is a stock 1973 Mercedes Benz 220D; the D stands for diesel. At least
> it was stock until "I converted it to run on straight vegetable oil, waste
> vegetable oil from the local Asian restaurant. I filter it with a sock from
> the local paint store into a five gallon bucket to get out some of the salts
> and the chunks. Then I pour it into 24 gallon vegetable oil tank, and it then
> goes through a 10 micron filter before it goes up to the front to the engine.
I guess some people enjoy hanging out in the alley behind restaurants
straining used cooking oil..
But there is an issue of supply and demand... If there were more
people then just her using that stuff.. there wouldn't be enough to
go around..
Besides, around here anyways, there are service companies that provide
a metal container that looks like a little dumpster and they come
around and collect it. I think they even BUY IT from the restaurant..
I've seen reports in the paper about someone pumping out these tanks
and miffing the restaurant/collector.. Take a look over by the
dumpster at a fast food place or behind your local wally
world(walmart) if it has a "snack bar" and you'll see the container..
Burning that stuff puts out CO2 does it not?
When will these people realize electric is the way to go?
Everyone I talk to is concerned about the range. I say, "But you
never drive 100 miles in one day!!" If they'd ever take notice of how
many miles that actually drive each day they'd think "gee, I only
drove 11 miles today...." Frustrating.. But if that wasn't enough,
the issue about the cost of conversion always gets in the way. It
will take an oil shortage of some sort to change things.
Everyone will be stuck at home or walking/riding a bike, and we'll be
tearing up the streets in our electrics day and night!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My sparrow has the standard pack of 13 optima yellow tops. I replaced
the last pack at 8k miles when they lost equalization in a bad way. I
was a serious newbie and I'm not even sure now what happened exactly to
that pack. I thought I would do better with the new one, but alas. Any
help would be appreciated:
8k seems to be a magic number; my pack blew up at 6. Then again I was
overcharging and you can't be with a Lee kit.
In the winter I started having problems with the voltage sagging way
more than I wanted. But I chalked it up to the cold, and figured it
would get better with summer. I adjusted my controller settings to be a
little more conservative, and so used less amp hours per commute. Even
so I had days when I would start to hit my low voltage limit as I
approached home (it was set to 140v).
140 sounds about right. How many amps were you pulling at the time? I'd
say if it was 60amps you have a problem; 200 and something else is up.
That would be about the same as 262 volts on my pack; and my pack is the
same size-ish as yours (52ah, 300 volt however I have a bigger car).
But now it's nice and hot, and the problem has gotten even worse. This
morning I was 1 mile from work, and I had already drawn 20 ah from the
pack (all numbers from my emeter). I was drawing 40 amps and getting
130 volts! When I let off the throttle, the pack quickly recovered to
160+ volts. But I was scared to draw too many more amps for fear of
reversing a cell or something. (is this a real danger?)
Sure, but what I think you have here is a dead battery. One of the
batteries is sinking really low under load and can't keep up. It acts as
a massive resistor, dropping the voltage and limiting the current.
I would do this:
Get a 30amp battery tester thingie.
Run the car down to the point where this big sag happens.
Park and immediately start checking each battery under load. One will be
a sinker; shoot it.
Chris
So what is causing this? Is it simple age? Is it sulfation?
Probably a battery just went bad. Still, the rest of the pack is getting
tired. What I have noticed is that when the batteries dry out you get
incredible performance right to about 12-15ah, then the pack sinks like
a rock. Incredible as in you can pull 200+ amps without dropping below
12 volts per battery (156).
My first concern is can how can I squeeze the most life out of this
pack. A new set of batteries ever 7-8k miles is just not going to fly
on the budget.
I'd build a battery monitor like my Lee-Chris circuit and watch each
battery under load with LEDs. You'll find some of them drop earlier than
others; that's your limit.
I also am wondering how low I can let the pack sag. Am I just being
paranoid about reversing a cell?
10.6 volts seems to be the accepted min. Problem is you can have one low
battery and a bunch of high ones and the low one will reverse with an
overall pack voltage that is high. However when a cell reverses the
performance will drop like a rock.
Sparrows are just like Prizms, only littler.
Chris
--- End Message ---
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Hello Eric,
Did you ever tried to weld aluminum with aluminum solder? It looks just like
50/50 solder on a roll, but it is weld with oxygen-acetylene at a low heat.
I went to my radiator shop to have a aluminum pipe stubs welded to a aluminum
radiator. When I pick it up, the welds on the pipe nipples are outstanding.
Very smooth weld bead. They do a lot of custom aluminum welding for show cars.
I said you are very good with a TiG welder, they said, they used aluminum
radiator solder. Is very easy to work with. Normally sold only to radiator
shops. Latter I went to a industrial welding company, and they do not know
about aluminum solder or they don't like to admit there is something like that.
With aluminum solder, you can weld a heavy aluminum pipe nipple or 1/4 inch
brackets to a paper thin aluminum radiator.
How about Lead welding? This is useful for EV'ers with there lead batteries.
On my second set of batteries, which were 2 volt 300 AH cells, you had to weld
the all the post together with lead links. I used a Victor lead welding tip,
that has a long pencil flame for lead work.
I have heard that there is a electric lead welding technique that works better
than gas. I have not found out anything on this.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Poulsen<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 9:17 AM
Subject: On Welding
Last year I took a welding course, specifically so that I could
(eventually) build an EV. In the end, I bought a Victor gas setup.
Here's my take. I'm sure I made some mistakes, and there will be
differences of opinion, but here goes:
Gas advantages:
* Easy to weld thin sheet / tubing (for frames)
* Cuts steel very quickly
* Heating and bending; don't underestimate the handiness of heating
steel red hot and bending it into a needed shape.
* More versatile than any other type of welder.
* Relatively inexpensive
* "Duty cycle" is at least 7 hours (you gas guys know what I mean), if
you have the oxygen available.
Gas disadvantages:
* Considerably more practice is needed. I wouldn't be surprised if > 40
hours of practice are needed for welds that are strong, but not
necessarily pretty. Also, it takes a bit to get used to different
thicknesses of metals, and the heat input required to either melt them,
or preventing holes from being blown in them by the torch.
* Transportation of cylinders requires a pickup truck
* Much larger "heat affected zone" of the welds
* Welding aluminum / stainless requires special fluxes. Not even sure
you can weld stainless with gas. Of course, if you weld aluminum or
stainless with a mig/tig, you need aluminum or stainless wire / rod,
also, unless it's a fusion weld.
* Gas welding is less common, meaning you won't find welding rod (or
other supplies) at Lowe's or Home Depot.
* Much slower
MIG/TIG advantages:
* Generally easier to learn than gas, though I think MIG is easier than TIG.
* Equipment and materials are relatively easy to find
* Clean, professional looking welds are more easily achieved
* MIG equipment is relatively inexpensive
* Welding speed is faster
MIG/TIG disadvantages:
* TIG welders are pricey
* Duty cycle sucks. Unless you get a big $$$ welder, you'll be welding
3-5 minutes, max out of a 10 minute cycle.
* For TIG and some MIG, you still have to transport gas cylinders,
though it's smaller bottles of inert gas.
* You *might* have to beef up your wiring to provide enough current,
especially with the larger models
* Heating / bending / cutting is not possible (and plasma cutters are
very expensive)
* Powerful UV rays are emitted, which can cause sunburn, eyeburn, and
skin cancer. Protective gear is always necessary for any welding, but
you really need to cover exposed skin with the electric methods. I got
a bad sunburn on my neck when I was stick welding, where my collar
wasn't completely closed below my face shield.
Stick welding: Cheap, takes practice, but generally only good for
thicker metal (3/8" and up)
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Well it's finally on to the next stage as the
plug to make the body tooling has went to the
boatbuilder to make the tooling from.
Now things will quicken as the tooling should
only take 2 weeks and the first body popped out in 4
weeks.
Could use some help sourcing some lightweight,
reasonable cost disc brakes, hubs and spindles for it.
If you have any ideas where I might find such things,
please let me know.
Car units available are either too heavy or front
wheel drive that are heavier, more complicated than I
need. Maybe there are some small racing ones that
could be used someone knows of?
I have to get this nailed down as it needs to
be built in the next month as the body will be ready
to take them!!!!
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
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Actually, SVO/WVO burns quite well, and is a viable alternative for those
who want to get away from burning diesel and don't mind going through quite
a conversion to do it.
Check this out- http://www.frybrid.com/frybrid.htm
And I believe that the restaurants have to pay the services to remove the
waste oil, so it's a win/win if consumers take it away for free.
The moral of the story is- I every one would just buy French fries every day
there would be enough 'fuel'.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 7:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: TdS Report #56: Monte Carlo Rally: Just for Fun
TdS_Reports wrote:
> Her car is a stock 1973 Mercedes Benz 220D; the D stands for diesel. At
least
> it was stock until "I converted it to run on straight vegetable oil, waste
> vegetable oil from the local Asian restaurant. I filter it with a sock
from
> the local paint store into a five gallon bucket to get out some of the
salts
> and the chunks. Then I pour it into 24 gallon vegetable oil tank, and it
then
> goes through a 10 micron filter before it goes up to the front to the
engine.
I guess some people enjoy hanging out in the alley behind restaurants
straining used cooking oil..
But there is an issue of supply and demand... If there were more
people then just her using that stuff.. there wouldn't be enough to
go around..
Besides, around here anyways, there are service companies that provide
a metal container that looks like a little dumpster and they come
around and collect it. I think they even BUY IT from the restaurant..
I've seen reports in the paper about someone pumping out these tanks
and miffing the restaurant/collector.. Take a look over by the
dumpster at a fast food place or behind your local wally
world(walmart) if it has a "snack bar" and you'll see the container..
Burning that stuff puts out CO2 does it not?
When will these people realize electric is the way to go?
Everyone I talk to is concerned about the range. I say, "But you
never drive 100 miles in one day!!" If they'd ever take notice of how
many miles that actually drive each day they'd think "gee, I only
drove 11 miles today...." Frustrating.. But if that wasn't enough,
the issue about the cost of conversion always gets in the way. It
will take an oil shortage of some sort to change things.
Everyone will be stuck at home or walking/riding a bike, and we'll be
tearing up the streets in our electrics day and night!
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Roland Wiench wrote:
>I said you are very good with a TiG welder, they said, they used
aluminum >radiator solder. Is very easy to work with. Normally sold
only to radiator shops. >Latter I went to a industrial welding
company, and they do not know about >aluminum solder or they don't
like to admit there is something like that.
Any chance it was this stuff?
http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=1222&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=483&iSubCat=487&iProductID=1222
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> 2 - What the best way to step down a 27 volt pack to this voltage for
> bench testing?
Use fewer cells. Maybe use 1/2 the cells at a time.
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jerry dycus wrote:
>the first body popped out in 4 weeks.
Is the car a 1 piece fiberglass uni-body, or will it be a fiberglass
body on a frame?
> lightweight, reasonable cost disc brakes, hubs and spindles for it.
Something like a Mustang 2 front-end that uses 2 control arms?
http://www.rodfactory.com/NewFiles/MIIhubkit.html
Or a later MacPherson strut design which just uses one?
http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/t_suspension.htm
Which setup will you have room for / be able to attach?
> Maybe there are some small racing ones that
> could be used someone knows of?
There is lightweight stuff, but it's always at a premium price,
partially because it is very low volume, and it's made with the best
materials. If they could build it any better, they would:
http://www.strangeengineering.net/catalog/125.html
You could potentially go to a auto parts store and maybe they could
look up what the lowest price spindle is, and how much the brake rotor
for it is.
This site has good prices and a nice online catalog:
http://www.rockauto.com/
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On Mon, 23 May 2005 21:29:10 -0500, Ryan Stotts
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>TdS_Reports wrote:
>
>> Her car is a stock 1973 Mercedes Benz 220D; the D stands for diesel. At
>> least
>> it was stock until "I converted it to run on straight vegetable oil, waste
>> vegetable oil from the local Asian restaurant. I filter it with a sock from
>> the local paint store into a five gallon bucket to get out some of the salts
>> and the chunks. Then I pour it into 24 gallon vegetable oil tank, and it
>> then
>> goes through a 10 micron filter before it goes up to the front to the engine.
>
>I guess some people enjoy hanging out in the alley behind restaurants
>straining used cooking oil..
>
>But there is an issue of supply and demand... If there were more
>people then just her using that stuff.. there wouldn't be enough to
>go around..
>
>Besides, around here anyways, there are service companies that provide
>a metal container that looks like a little dumpster and they come
>around and collect it. I think they even BUY IT from the restaurant..
> I've seen reports in the paper about someone pumping out these tanks
>and miffing the restaurant/collector.. Take a look over by the
>dumpster at a fast food place or behind your local wally
>world(walmart) if it has a "snack bar" and you'll see the container..
Putting on my restaurant owner's hat.....
A grease collection company provides me with a tank into which I dump
my waste grease. They don't pay me for it but on the other hand they
don't charge for collection.
There are a couple of very important things to understand about this
situation. First, taking grease out of a grease tank is theft of
goods. The title to my waste grease transfers to the collection
company when it hits the tank. Says so right here in my contract. I
agreed in my contract not to let any other entity remove grease from
THEIR tank that is located at my restaurant. Their traditional
concern is with rival grease collectors but if this veggie oil lunacy
catches on, so will their concern.
The second thing to know is that we (restaurants) all filter our oil
using a treated pumice compound. The pumice agglomerates the
heat-polymerizing oil while it is still short chained into globules
that can be trapped by a rather coarse filter. (The long chain poly
oil is the orange-yellow glop you see on fryers that aren't cleaned
all that well.) We don't worry too much about getting all the pumice
out of the oil, as the larger particles settle quickly to the bottom.
The smaller particles (micron and below) remain in the oil but are of
no consequence to the food product.
This residual pumice is of major concern to a diesel fuel system,
particularly a later model version with the electronic injectors.
Pumice IS abrasive and WILL wear the precision parts inside the
injector pump (if applicable) and the injectors.
The third thing to know is that fryer oil contains a fraction of a
percent of silicone oil as an anti-foaming agent. As anyone who has
burned silicone RTV knows, when this oil burns it produces a fine
white powder made up of silicon dioxide. Just like on sandpaper. A
great substance to have floating around an engine's combustion
chamber... NOT!
To recap:
* Removing grease from a grease pit is theft of a valuable product.
* The restaurant owner does NOT have the authority to give permission
to remove the product because he does not own it. The grease
collection company owns it.
* Waste fryer oil contains abrasive pumice that will go right through
those crude filters that I see most veggie burners using.
* Burning fryer oil releases silicon dioxide, a very hard abrasive.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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--- Begin Message ---
At 12:05 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote:
This has been a great thread.
Once I finish machining my adapter, my next purchase and skill to
learn will be a welder and welding.
Bill, you said a MIG was easier than a TIG, but you also said a TIG
was slower. It seems slower would be easier to learn and control --
so why is MIG easier?
TIG welds progress more slowly, but it is much more complicated to
do than MIG.
MIG process:
1) Plug it in.
2) Turn on the gas.
3) Connect ground clamp to practice piece (A chunk of scrap steel to test
the operation of the welder.)
4) Set the amperage for the thickness of the part you plan to weld.
5) Hold the MIG torch about 3/8" above the surface of the practice piece.
6) Pull the trigger.
7) Set the feed so the arc sounds like frying eggs. Tweak for weld
appearance if you want.
8) Let go of the trigger.
9) Move the ground clamp to the part you plan to weld.
10) Hold the MIG torch about 3/8" above the spot where you want to start
the weld.
11) Pull the trigger.
12) Weld the bead.
13) Let go of the trigger.
TIG procedure:
1) Select proper size and type tungsten for the job.
2) Sharpen tungsten.
3) Position tungsten in the torch collet and tighten.
4) Turn on the machine.
5) Turn on the gas.
6) Set the pre-flow.
7) Set the post-flow.
8) Set the max current.
9) Select the filler rod size and alloy.
10) Turn on the torch cooling water. Check for proper flow.
11) Clamp the ground on the practice piece.
12) Put your foot on the foot pedal. (Starts welder and controls current.)
13) Position torch above practice piece.
14) Depress pedal, initiate arc.
15) Form molten pool.
16) Add filler rod to the pool (with your other hand.)
17) Back off the current slightly.
18) While making tiny circles with the torch, coax the molten pool forward
along the planned weld bead.
19) Add filler to the pool.
20) Repeat 13f and 13g until you reach the end of this section of weld bead.
21) Move torch away slightly while backing off the current.
22) Hold in position while the bead cools (post-flow)
23 Move the ground clamp to the part you actually plan to weld.
24) Perform steps 12 through 22.
25) Remove, sharpen, and replace tungsten if it becomes dirty, dull, or you
accidentally stick it to the work.
With TIG, you have to carefully position and hold the torch with
one hand while you feed filler rod with the other. At the same time, you
must control the current with the foot pedal. TIG welding is a lot like
riding a unicycle while juggling.
Using a MIG welder is a lot like using a caulking gun.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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