EV Digest 4393
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: 48v charging
by "Rodriguez, Jennifer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Controller question
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Locking/latching the suspension
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Controller question
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) should I replace sagging Batts?
by "Jamie Marshall \(GAMES\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Locking/latching the suspension
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Locking/latching the suspension
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Controller question
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Busbars for Batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
by john bart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: should I replace sagging Batts?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) DCP Raptor 600 controller for sale
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Dual Etek Motor Mounting Plan? (reverse noise?)
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Controller question
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Fw: 12kw item.
by "Jeremy Longworth T L C Orchids" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I'm the other person Cristin mentioned in her first post. In my case, I
have the B&B EB50 batteries (four 12V 50Ah batteries), you can view
their specs here:
http://www.bb-battery.com/productpages/EB/EB50-12.pdf. I have been
using the stock charger, which specifies that it should not be left on
for more than 12 hours. It charges at 10 Amps. I was interested in a
Soneil charger to help de-sulfate the batteries, and because it could be
left on indefinitely (sometimes I forget to unplug at home). The
charger I'm looking at is the 4808SRF, see specs here:
http://www.electricrider.com/chargers/specsheets/4808rf.pdf. That also
happens to be the charger that Cristin is using with her EVT. (I think
she also has B&B batteries, but I'm not sure of the model.)
Knowing the batteries now, can you tell me if the Soneil would be a good
charger for these batteries? In my case, I plan to still use the stock
charger for charging away from home, such as at work, which is about 40%
of my charging. I looked at the battery specs, but I did not know how
to determine which level of charging would be best.
Thanks for your help!
Jenn
Yellow EVT 4000e
Santa Clara, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 48v charging
1. A high rate initial charge current is recommended by some
manufacturers
but not others. You did not state the brand and model of battery so we
would
have to guess if 10 amps is appropriate for your circumstances.
2. Some batteries respond very well to slow charging. You may have some
of
these batteries. On the other hand, the slow charger may have been
installed
because of cost.
3. If all the regs are blinking, they are doing their job. You can
verify
that by measuring the voltage on each battery when the reg blinks. A
charger
that backs off properly will taper to a nice low finishing current and
have
ALL the regs blinking.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gravity Girl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:11 AM
Subject: 48v charging
>
> Questions about charging for my EVT-
>
> I removed the stock charger that came with the EVT, not knowing if it
> is smart or not (my guess is that it isn't that smart, if at all) and
> replaced with with a Soneil 48v charger. I also put on 4 Rudman regs
to
> make sure the batteries stay in balance during the charge.
>
> A member on another list I am on (for e-mopeds) told me she had heard
> that the Soneil was good for a top-off charge, but that the batteries
> would last longer with a minimum 10A initial charge. They recommended
> the Zivan NG1 to provide this. Since I can charge my EVT all day while
> at work and all night while at home, speed isn't so much of an issue.
>
> I have noticed that the regs only pulse for a very short period of
time
> during charging, my guess is because the Soneil takes things nice and
> slow with a very low current finish.
>
> So, questions:
>
> Will starting a 48v charge on SLA batteries at 10A increase battery
> life?
> Is the soneil under-charging?
> Should I add a second soneil in parallel to increase charge current?
> Do the regs sound like they are behaving properly? (or have I messed
up
> the installation somehow)
>
> I forgot to bring my dvm to work today to check the battery levels at
> full charge. I imagine that will help answer question #2.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Cristin
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> La Bola Ocho Magica dice: SI
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A wild idea here: Why not use the inertia of the batteries to help
traction and the launch?
On a FWD, compress the front springs all the way and latch the car
down like that. Upon launch, unlatch the springs and get up to an
additional 1000 lbs of force on the front wheels. The front shock
damping rates might need to be adjusted to optimize.
Same idea for RWD, except do it on the rear axle.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Adding on to Roderick post,
>
> I run a 1981 vw pickup. Same frame and running parts as you.
> I have a Z2K, 11" kostov, and two strings of twenty
> (40 total)17 amp hawkers. After three years of tuning, my best time
> is
> 15.331 sec. and 91.8 mph. I have said this before but I have gone
> through
> 3 transmissions a quiafe and now a fantom locker, oh and a few cvt
> joints
> and clutches to get were I am.
>
> Wayland hit me over the head last fall to get some street drag
> tires.
> I hope to do better at June 11 at Power of Dc Watt Wheels Drag race
> with
> my new BF Goodrich tires.
>
> I one of problems is that front wheel drives are hard to get the
> power to the
> ground.
>
> I have new rear wheel car in the garge but it is two year away from
> seeing the
> strip.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea the math for front drivers is all the weight in front of the front tires
and about 4 feet below the road surface..
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
>
>
> >From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing Date: Fri, 27 May 2005
09:43:21
> >-0700
> >
> >
> >The 9 will make all the power you can handle and then quite a bit more.
The
> >lack of traction is your real limiter. Keeping the controller in line
until
> >you get out of 2nd or third, maybe 4th will be a good idea.
> >You will need to move every once of battery weight and anything else you
> >can
> >find as far forward in the Ev as possible. The more weight you have over
> >the front end the better. The less weight transfer off the front and
onto
> >the backs the better.
>
> And, it may be obvious, but in case it isn't, you also want all the weight
> as LOW in the car as possible. That will also reduce the weight transfer
> onto the back wheels. You should particularly try to mount all the
> batteries as low as possible ( and not scrape the road). Lowering the
> whole car will help here also.
>
> Phil
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If they are just rebuildt Curtii, I don't want to have anything to do with
them.
VERY short life cycle I hear.
Rod has one in his Killer Cart. Nice for short fun stuff, Not what I would
use for a 12 second blast.
Warning to John Bart....You get what you pay for...
Keep that thing as cold as you can... Cheat the laws that say that
controller won't live long. Build a water cooled chill plate, and use iced
water and start in the Lowest gear you can.
The enemy of any controller is heat and semi controlled amps at the
limit. Using 2nd gear and say 400 amps to lightly toast off the line, is a
LOT easier on the controller and motor.
Do the oposite of what Otmar and, Rod launch with They use the highest gear
that won't spin the tires. I use the least amps to get the job done They use
the most.
Keep in mind I have a T-Rex 1000 air cooled
a Raptor 1200 air cooled(makes 1800 amps
for about 1/2 second)
And a Spiffy new Water cooled Zilla 2K.
And I have lived and reincarnated a couple of Cutrtii 400 in my time.
I do have a little controller history in my past.
Kudos to Robert Salem... his Kostov is why I rebuildt mine.... 408 Ftlbs at
1700 or so amps... I can do something usefull with that!
Simple cheap and fast, you better find a rear drive EV....With one Hell for
stout rear end.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
> <<< What else can be done....
> Front end design for anti dive, rear wheelie bar to keep the front on the
> ground and still have some kind of traction.
> Get a Zilla 2K because you are going to need a REAL controller. Who
> makes a 1000 amp 120 volt controller??? >>>
>
> I guess there's a demand for mega-controllers in the golf cart business,
because
> these guys supposedly have 72v/1000a ones for ~$500 and 120v/1000a for
~$700:
>
> LogiSystems
> 9910 West 64th Street
> Odessa, Texas 79764
> Phone (432) 381-6000
> Fax (432) 381-6001
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:11:57 -0700 (PDT)
A wild idea here: Why not use the inertia of the batteries to help
traction and the launch?
On a FWD, compress the front springs all the way and latch the car
down like that. Upon launch, unlatch the springs and get up to an
additional 1000 lbs of force on the front wheels. The front shock
damping rates might need to be adjusted to optimize.
Interesting idea .
Let's take an example: To get 1000 lbs extra downforce on the tires, you
would have to accelerate a car with 2000 lbs on that axle upward at 1/2 Gs.
To do that for even 1/2 second, the mass of the car would have to rise about
4 feet. That's a lot of suspension travel.
1/4 second of extra downforce would only require a rise of 1 foot . Now,
that isn't impossible, and might help a bit at launch, but the real problem
is when the car stops moving up.
After the springs are released ( and the car rises) , the car has to
accelerate back down ( or go into orbit). While it's acclerating down, the
tire downforce will be reduced below the static weight of the car. As it
works out ( and shouldn't be a surprise) the time averaged downforce during
the run will be exactly the same as if you didn't use this method - unless
it's still moving upward as you cross the line.
So, your average traction would be the same, but higher at the start, and
lower a short time after. It doesn't seem, to me, like it would help.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone tried using a carbon pile to controll current? I have used them
before to test batteries, and they SEEM rather robust.
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is somewhat related to a thought I had recently. Right now I'm in
the process of putting together the rear end of my truck, which will be
suspended with a 4-link setup, Varishock adjustable shocks and airbags.
At the moment I'm going with a panhard bar since I don't have much choice
given that there will be battery boxes behind the differential and to
either side of the driveshaft. I was thinking about creating a more
accurate means of locating the rear end from side to side, one that
doesn't move in an arc like a panhard (I will probably have very tight
tire clearances), and the thought occurred to me -- would it make sense to
allow a locking mechanism, such that the rear suspension could be fixed
for racing? Would there be any benefit? Is it legal?
--chris
David Dymaxion said:
> A wild idea here: Why not use the inertia of the batteries to help
> traction and the launch?
>
> On a FWD, compress the front springs all the way and latch the car
> down like that. Upon launch, unlatch the springs and get up to an
> additional 1000 lbs of force on the front wheels. The front shock
> damping rates might need to be adjusted to optimize.
>
> Same idea for RWD, except do it on the rear axle.
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Hi John,
>>
>> Adding on to Roderick post,
>>
>> I run a 1981 vw pickup. Same frame and running parts as you.
>> I have a Z2K, 11" kostov, and two strings of twenty
>> (40 total)17 amp hawkers. After three years of tuning, my best time
>> is
>> 15.331 sec. and 91.8 mph. I have said this before but I have gone
>> through
>> 3 transmissions a quiafe and now a fantom locker, oh and a few cvt
>> joints
>> and clutches to get were I am.
>>
>> Wayland hit me over the head last fall to get some street drag
>> tires.
>> I hope to do better at June 11 at Power of Dc Watt Wheels Drag race
>> with
>> my new BF Goodrich tires.
>>
>> I one of problems is that front wheel drives are hard to get the
>> power to the
>> ground.
>>
>> I have new rear wheel car in the garge but it is two year away from
>> seeing the
>> strip.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David wrote:
> On a FWD, compress the front springs all the way and latch the car
> down like that. Upon launch, unlatch the springs and get up to an
> additional 1000 lbs of force on the front wheels. The front shock
> damping rates might need to be adjusted to optimize.
>
> Same idea for RWD, except do it on the rear axle.
This page has some really good info:
http://www.baselinesuspensions.com/info/Launching_A_Drag_Car.htm
I'd like to encourage everyone who is into this stuff to give that
page a quick read.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote:
> they SEEM rather robust.
I've seen references on this list about the carbon pile glowing red
hot. What about taking the case off it and have a fan blow on it to
keep it from maybe not getting that hot? Or rig up some forced air
cooling for it?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So I got a load tester and found that 10 of my Batteries are all doing
quite well, and 3 are obviously bad ones.
I tested after a long 20 ah commute. The 10 all held to 11.8 volts
during the test, whilst the 3 dipped to 7.8-9.6 when load tested.
So thanks for the advice. But now I'm wondering if I should replace
these 3 bats now, or if I can wait and squeeze more service out of them.
Am I doing damage or taking risks by leaving these in my pack?
Thanks,
Jamie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ummm nice thoery...
Ever tried it???
Didn't think so.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
> A wild idea here: Why not use the inertia of the batteries to help
> traction and the launch?
>
> On a FWD, compress the front springs all the way and latch the car
> down like that. Upon launch, unlatch the springs and get up to an
> additional 1000 lbs of force on the front wheels. The front shock
> damping rates might need to be adjusted to optimize.
>
> Same idea for RWD, except do it on the rear axle.
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Hi John,
> >
> > Adding on to Roderick post,
> >
> > I run a 1981 vw pickup. Same frame and running parts as you.
> > I have a Z2K, 11" kostov, and two strings of twenty
> > (40 total)17 amp hawkers. After three years of tuning, my best time
> > is
> > 15.331 sec. and 91.8 mph. I have said this before but I have gone
> > through
> > 3 transmissions a quiafe and now a fantom locker, oh and a few cvt
> > joints
> > and clutches to get were I am.
> >
> > Wayland hit me over the head last fall to get some street drag
> > tires.
> > I hope to do better at June 11 at Power of Dc Watt Wheels Drag race
> > with
> > my new BF Goodrich tires.
> >
> > I one of problems is that front wheel drives are hard to get the
> > power to the
> > ground.
> >
> > I have new rear wheel car in the garge but it is two year away from
> > seeing the
> > strip.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look at how a Camaro rear suspension is setup (probably the best
handling solid axle car). The torque arm helps push the axle towards
the ground when you take off. A solid suspension wouldn't be able to
increase its traction this way.
--- Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is somewhat related to a thought I had recently. Right now
> I'm in
> the process of putting together the rear end of my truck, which
> will be
> suspended with a 4-link setup, Varishock adjustable shocks and
> airbags.
>
> At the moment I'm going with a panhard bar since I don't have much
> choice
> given that there will be battery boxes behind the differential and
> to
> either side of the driveshaft. I was thinking about creating a
> more
> accurate means of locating the rear end from side to side, one that
> doesn't move in an arc like a panhard (I will probably have very
> tight
> tire clearances), and the thought occurred to me -- would it make
> sense to
> allow a locking mechanism, such that the rear suspension could be
> fixed
> for racing? Would there be any benefit? Is it legal?
>
> --chris
>
>
>
> David Dymaxion said:
> > A wild idea here: Why not use the inertia of the batteries to
> help
> > traction and the launch?
> >
> > On a FWD, compress the front springs all the way and latch the
> car
> > down like that. Upon launch, unlatch the springs and get up to an
> > additional 1000 lbs of force on the front wheels. The front shock
> > damping rates might need to be adjusted to optimize.
> >
> > Same idea for RWD, except do it on the rear axle.
> >
> > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >> Hi John,
> >>
> >> Adding on to Roderick post,
> >>
> >> I run a 1981 vw pickup. Same frame and running parts as you.
> >> I have a Z2K, 11" kostov, and two strings of twenty
> >> (40 total)17 amp hawkers. After three years of tuning, my best
> time
> >> is
> >> 15.331 sec. and 91.8 mph. I have said this before but I have
> gone
> >> through
> >> 3 transmissions a quiafe and now a fantom locker, oh and a few
> cvt
> >> joints
> >> and clutches to get were I am.
> >>
> >> Wayland hit me over the head last fall to get some street drag
> >> tires.
> >> I hope to do better at June 11 at Power of Dc Watt Wheels Drag
> race
> >> with
> >> my new BF Goodrich tires.
> >>
> >> I one of problems is that front wheel drives are hard to get the
> >> power to the
> >> ground.
> >>
> >> I have new rear wheel car in the garge but it is two year away
> from
> >> seeing the
> >> strip.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Robison wrote:
This is somewhat related to a thought I had recently. Right now I'm in
the process of putting together the rear end of my truck, which will be
suspended with a 4-link setup, Varishock adjustable shocks and airbags.
At the moment I'm going with a panhard bar since I don't have much choice
Will a Watts link setup take up too much space? It does sit behind the
axle but should only be about 3" thick or so and doesn't have the
"moving in an arc" issue that panhard does. With care it could probably
be designed as part of the battery box.
The Mustang suspension animation someone sent to the list a week ago
covers it:
http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/t_suspension.htm
Mark
given that there will be battery boxes behind the differential and to
either side of the driveshaft. I was thinking about creating a more
accurate means of locating the rear end from side to side, one that
doesn't move in an arc like a panhard (I will probably have very tight
tire clearances), and the thought occurred to me -- would it make sense to
allow a locking mechanism, such that the rear suspension could be fixed
for racing? Would there be any benefit? Is it legal?
--chris
David Dymaxion said:
A wild idea here: Why not use the inertia of the batteries to help
traction and the launch?
On a FWD, compress the front springs all the way and latch the car
down like that. Upon launch, unlatch the springs and get up to an
additional 1000 lbs of force on the front wheels. The front shock
damping rates might need to be adjusted to optimize.
Same idea for RWD, except do it on the rear axle.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi John,
Adding on to Roderick post,
I run a 1981 vw pickup. Same frame and running parts as you.
I have a Z2K, 11" kostov, and two strings of twenty
(40 total)17 amp hawkers. After three years of tuning, my best time
is
15.331 sec. and 91.8 mph. I have said this before but I have gone
through
3 transmissions a quiafe and now a fantom locker, oh and a few cvt
joints
and clutches to get were I am.
Wayland hit me over the head last fall to get some street drag
tires.
I hope to do better at June 11 at Power of Dc Watt Wheels Drag race
with
my new BF Goodrich tires.
I one of problems is that front wheel drives are hard to get the
power to the
ground.
I have new rear wheel car in the garge but it is two year away from
seeing the
strip.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
!DSPAM:429785f8307005194587498!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They work.
they get really hot and catch fire..
Plan on it, and you won't be surprised.
I have heard of 5000 amp plus units. Old stuff works.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:31 PM
Subject: Controller question
> Has anyone tried using a carbon pile to controll current? I have used them
> before to test batteries, and they SEEM rather robust.
>
> David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
> Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
> - Harold S.
> Hulbert
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are right you'd want to have the shocks damp the rise to prevent
a hop.
It turns out it is not about averages, traction at the beginning of a
run is more important. Extreme example to illustrate the point:
Suppose you could have 1 g of traction at the beginning or end of a
run, and zero traction otherwise. 1 g at the beginning accelerates
you for a bit, and you drive constant speed through the finish. 0
traction at the start and your car never moves, you never reach the
finish line.
More realistic example: 0.2 s of 1 g traction, and 0.2 s of 0.5 g
traction, vs. an "average" of 0.4 s of 0.75 g traction:
x = 0.5 * a * t^2
v0 = 1*9.8*0.2 = 1.96 m/s
x1 = 0.5*1*9.8 m/s^2*(0.2 s)^2 + 1.96 m/s * (0.2) + 0.5*0.5*9.8
m/s^2*(0.2 s)^2 = 0.686 m
v1 = 1 * 9.8 * 0.2 + 0.5 * 9.8 * 0.2 = 2.94 m/s
x2 = 0.5*0.75*9.8*(0.4)^2 = 0.588 m
v2 = 2.94 m / s
Even though the speeds are the same, the average car is 10 cm behind
the one with the stronger launch, and will lose the race by about
0.002 seconds. :)
My guess is the extra slight weight to implement the scheme erases
the 0.002 s advantage. I'm laughing at myself, but at least I've
figured out why the pros aren't doing this trick!
--- Philip Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Interesting idea .
>
> Let's take an example: To get 1000 lbs extra downforce on the
> tires, you
> would have to accelerate a car with 2000 lbs on that axle upward at
> 1/2 Gs.
> To do that for even 1/2 second, the mass of the car would have to
> rise about
> 4 feet. That's a lot of suspension travel.
>
> 1/4 second of extra downforce would only require a rise of 1 foot .
> Now,
> that isn't impossible, and might help a bit at launch, but the real
> problem
> is when the car stops moving up.
>
> After the springs are released ( and the car rises) , the car has
> to
> accelerate back down ( or go into orbit). While it's acclerating
> down, the
> tire downforce will be reduced below the static weight of the car.
> As it
> works out ( and shouldn't be a surprise) the time averaged
> downforce during
> the run will be exactly the same as if you didn't use this method -
> unless
> it's still moving upward as you cross the line.
>
> So, your average traction would be the same, but higher at the
> start, and
> lower a short time after. It doesn't seem, to me, like it would
> help.
>
> >From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
> >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:11:57 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >A wild idea here: Why not use the inertia of the batteries to help
> >traction and the launch?
> >
> >On a FWD, compress the front springs all the way and latch the car
> >down like that. Upon launch, unlatch the springs and get up to an
> >additional 1000 lbs of force on the front wheels. The front shock
> >damping rates might need to be adjusted to optimize.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I've priced getting little copper busbars made up, and that
> comes out to $1.50ea for the bar, and another $1.00ea for
> the nickel plating. OUCH. (Especially since we only paid $1
> ea for the cells!) This is for 1-3/4" x 1/2" x 1/8" bars.
>
> Anyone have suggestions on how to make this less expensive?
One thing you might do is try getting a quote from someone who makes
buss bars for a living, rather than a small shop. For instance:
<http://www.stormcopper.com/>
It might turn out that they can provide you with interconnects cheaper
than a small shop can.
Or, buy the 0.5" x 1/8" bar stock (it comes in 12 foot lengths) and cut
and drill the interconnects yourself:
<http://www.alaskancopper.com/catalogs/mill/copper/pdf/rect_square.pdf>
I bought a length of 1" x 1/8" bar from a local metal supplier for
(IIRC) about CDN$30, so would expect a length half the width to be about
$15. Assuming a straight conversion to US$ and conservatively figuring
on 72 1.75" interconnects from a 12 foot length works out to just under
US$0.21 each. If you get nearer to the 82 interconnects per 12ft length
maximum, the material cost drops to just over US$0.18 each.
Shearing rather than cutting is definitely quicker and easier, if you
can justify the cost of a small shear. However, copper cuts easily.
Drilling is best done with a drill press, which I suspect you already
have, and Neon John gave some excellent tips on making a fixture/jig to
hold the interconnects so that you avoid the need to clamp/unclamp each
piece in the vise.
Alternatively, instead of using 1/8" bar stock, you could use a couple
paralleled interconnects made from thinner material. Go to perhaps 1"
width and drop to 0.025" thick or so. Now you can cut the interconnects
with a pair of scissors and punch rather than drill the holes. Two
paralleled 0.025" x 1" straps are equivalent to a single 0.100" x 0.5"
crossection strap but are easier to make and are flexible (alleviating
concerns with rigidly containing the cells to prevent movement). Copper
foil like this is used for winding transformers and is available in
rolls. We've got several rolls sitting around the lab at work; I could
try to find out where we get it if you choose to go this route.
As for plating them, just get a solder pot and tin the straps after
you've cut and drilled them. Even if it costs you $100 for a solder
pot, this is less than $1 per strap for a single 130 cell string (156V).
Forget the liquid tin idea; that stuff is just barely adequate for
tinning PCBs. It is not particularly cheap and will not put a thick
enough coating on the straps to be of any use.
As usual, the tradeoff is time vs cost. You can definitely make the
interconnects for less money than buying them, but it'll probably cost
you a weekend doing it.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks everyone for all the feedback, the points brought up are leading the
team and I on the right path. The motor seems like it will be fine in its
stock state then for the time being, just advance the timing and seat the
brushes and we should be ok. The contactor setup worries me also, especially
for safety and performance wise. Even though i've been told this built
transmission will handle the power from others in this project, i have my
doubts. I realize that front wheel drive is not the optimal setup for drag
racing, but if we do somehow achieve traction, are our goals possible, is the
power there to do it? We are looking into the fender flares that were seen on
these cars back when they usto race them in the trans am series to put on
massively wide drag slicks on front. How about from a rolling start at say, 40
mph on up to 120, will the car pull well?
We're also looking into sponsorship for this project as we are associated with
S.A.E. in using their facility at the school. There are a few places that
sponsor the activities that go on now within the club which may help us out.
Until we have the funds for a zilla we will have to use what we can for the
time being.
I'm just going to throw this out as an example, but with good traction and a
race weight of 2700 lbs with driver, what kind of times should we expect?
Thanks all for the help, its really taking us in the right direction.
Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:If they are just rebuildt Curtii, I don't
want to have anything to do with
them.
VERY short life cycle I hear.
Rod has one in his Killer Cart. Nice for short fun stuff, Not what I would
use for a 12 second blast.
Warning to John Bart....You get what you pay for...
Keep that thing as cold as you can... Cheat the laws that say that
controller won't live long. Build a water cooled chill plate, and use iced
water and start in the Lowest gear you can.
The enemy of any controller is heat and semi controlled amps at the
limit. Using 2nd gear and say 400 amps to lightly toast off the line, is a
LOT easier on the controller and motor.
Do the oposite of what Otmar and, Rod launch with They use the highest gear
that won't spin the tires. I use the least amps to get the job done They use
the most.
Keep in mind I have a T-Rex 1000 air cooled
a Raptor 1200 air cooled(makes 1800 amps
for about 1/2 second)
And a Spiffy new Water cooled Zilla 2K.
And I have lived and reincarnated a couple of Cutrtii 400 in my time.
I do have a little controller history in my past.
Kudos to Robert Salem... his Kostov is why I rebuildt mine.... 408 Ftlbs at
1700 or so amps... I can do something usefull with that!
Simple cheap and fast, you better find a rear drive EV....With one Hell for
stout rear end.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: "EV Discussion List"
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
> <<< What else can be done....
> Front end design for anti dive, rear wheelie bar to keep the front on the
> ground and still have some kind of traction.
> Get a Zilla 2K because you are going to need a REAL controller. Who
> makes a 1000 amp 120 volt controller??? >>>
>
> I guess there's a demand for mega-controllers in the golf cart business,
because
> these guys supposedly have 72v/1000a ones for ~$500 and 120v/1000a for
~$700:
>
> LogiSystems
> 9910 West 64th Street
> Odessa, Texas 79764
> Phone (432) 381-6000
> Fax (432) 381-6001
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If they are down to 6 volts, they are toast.
Problem is on charge they will fill first. However you have regs, so the
rest of the batteries should be protected.
Chris
Jamie Marshall (GAMES) wrote:
So I got a load tester and found that 10 of my Batteries are all doing
quite well, and 3 are obviously bad ones.
I tested after a long 20 ah commute. The 10 all held to 11.8 volts
during the test, whilst the 3 dipped to 7.8-9.6 when load tested.
So thanks for the advice. But now I'm wondering if I should replace
these 3 bats now, or if I can wait and squeeze more service out of them.
Am I doing damage or taking risks by leaving these in my pack?
Thanks,
Jamie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I'm selling the DCP Raptor 600 motor controller that I used to use in my
Jeep Cherokee conversion. It is in great working condition; though it
just wasn't powerful enough for my heavy Cherokee, forcing me to upgrade
to a 1000-amp controller.
I'm looking to get $1600 for it.
Please contact me off-list if you are interested; at this address or my
main e-mail address: nick _at_ driveev _dot_ com
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman"
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
> Also John stays on the controller for the 60 ft lauch.
What does that mean and how is it accomplished?
Thanks
Rush
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I heard this eerie sound last night and was quite concerned. It sounds bad and
if anyone knows a solution, if it'll just wear in, or if I just shouldn't run
one backwards even though the brushes are nuetral please comment.
For now I shifted my mount to run them inline. Longer chain and I lose alot of
room but that sound really concerns me about damaging my motor.
Thanks,
Mark Hastings
Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Does anyone running their Etek backwards notice that they
squeel and don't sound very happy? Has anyone done something
to resolve this? I'm thinking of applying sandpaper in the
place of one pair of brushes and running it backward till the
comm is sanded down slightly and stops making that noise?
Is this a bad idea?
L8r
Ryan
BadFishRacing wrote:
> In my experience, the center of the timing slots is neutral timing. So out of
> the box, the motor will perform the same in either direction. I've only had
> to adjust the timing a tiny bit to get equal current on both motors.
>
> As far as sharing a single sprocket, as with joining any shafts, any
> misalignment will wear on the motor bearings. Just be sure you join the two
> motors first, then attach the motors to the mounting brackets. I'm not sure
> exactly how critical the shaft alignment will be? Anyone else..
>
>
> Darin Gilbert
> BadFishRacing
>
> -------------- Original message from Mark Hastings : --------------
>
>
>
>>I am building a small 3 wheel cabin scooter and using dual eteks. My current
>>plan is to use both motors facing eachother sharing a single sprocket over
>>the
>>end of both shafts (short shaft motor) and a key long enough to go down both
>>shafts completely so they are forced to rotate at the same speed and it will
>>allow an simpler/lighter drivetrain.
>>
>>For people more familiar then I with the Etek is their a long term issue with
>>doing it this way? One motor going CW and the other CCW would be my main long
>>term concern.
>>I have seen motorcycles with the eteks mounted the same way sharing a chain
>>and
>>facing with seperate sproket/chains but I'm expecting to commute on this so
>>need
>>something that will last long term.
>>
>>Thanks for any advice,
>>Mark Hastings
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:45 PM 27/05/05 -0700, cowtown wrote:
I guess there's a demand for mega-controllers in the golf cart business,
because
these guys supposedly have 72v/1000a ones for ~$500 and 120v/1000a for ~$700:
LogiSystems
I'd guess that'd be a case more of runaway spec-manship. Like the curtis
450A that can only make that for a certain number of seconds, but is really
a 250A controller. But if there is a combined 1000A rating of power devices
in the unit, call it 1000A. Which wouldn't alter the 250A continuous rating.
I see this in all sorts of places and ways. As an example, a customer
turned up with a "195-Amp" welder on the back seat of a car. I looked and
asked myself 'how did they get that in there, how do we get it out?'.
Turned out to be a cheap Italian machine in a big case. 195A at something
like 3% duty cycle! I was able to pick it up with arms outstreached and
walk away with it.
You get what you pay for (I bought a Zilla).
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:31 PM 27/05/05 -0700, David C. Wilker Jr wrote:
Has anyone tried using a carbon pile to control current? I have used them
before to test batteries, and they SEEM rather robust.
I assume that you are thinking current control as the controller in a
road-going car?
Not a good idea. Functionally a variable resistor, wastes ALL the power
that is not being put into the motor.
VERY BAD idea with a series motor, as an example, 100V on the batteries,
100A into the motor, 50V onto the motor, 50 x 100 = 5kW into the motor AND
5kW in the carbon pile.
However, as adjustable field weakening for a shunt motor, not so bad. To
follow the above example, 100V batteries, 8A into the field, 50V split, 50
x 8 = 400Watts.
The only carbon pile I've been seriously intimate with (strip and rebuild)
was a voltage regulator on a train (yes, and old one!). From that I'd
suggest that the throttle would be a pain to set up.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Out of curiousity, what is the max motor voltage the 9'' can
handle @ 1,000 amps, and what kind of torque can it make at
higher current levels from about 700 amps to 1,000 amps?
Could a single WarP 9'' make 200 horsepower, and if so,
would it be able to make it at about 5,000 rpm with near 200
lb-ft, or will it require a Zilla 2k and make masive torque
and this amount of power at a low rpm?
Has anyone constructed any reliable equations to describe
its behavior? My search for torque data for the higher amp
levels of a WarP 9 incher has remained unsuccessful,
although I did come across some of Otmar's data on his 8''
motors.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is how they cool the changfa diesels. the cast conversion kit will
convert a hopper cooled Chinese diesel to a radiator cooled unit.
You can channel the water through a hose in hose (HIH) a fuel heating
devise.
Then you can route the coolant through coils inside your fuel tank and burn
WVO.
http://www.utterpower.com/diesel.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: 12kw item.
The diesels in the gensets use the basin type cooling
setup. It's basically a small bathtub with water in
it, surrounding the cylinder. as you run the genny you
have to periodically fill the tub. I'm afraid that if
you had it on a trailer you might lose all your water
bouncing down the road.
Gadget
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This is the guy on ebay selling those Chinese
gensets. My Electravan draw
about 100 amps or less on flat freeways. He says
the 12kw unit will produce
this 24/7. I'd like to make a veggy oil range
extender to go to Southern
Cal with. This is the same Ebay vendor that was
receitly on the list. The
genset was about a grand. Worth the money? With
trailer and all it'll
weigh at least 500 pounds. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel A. Koch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 5:17 AM
Subject: Re: 12kw item.
> Hello Lawrence,
> A 12 KW generator head puts out 100 amps
continuous at 120 volts.
> Regards,
> Joel
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
>> I am considering running an electric car with
your genset(long range.
>> Not for local use). I need 100 amps continuous.
Can your genset do
>> that? Be real nice if it could.
>> Lawrence Rhodes
>> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
>> Reedmaker
>> Book 4/5 doubler
>> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 415-821-3519
>>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--
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