EV Digest 4398
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Fw: 12kw item.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EV candidate?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Cable vs. Solid copper
by Larry Skidmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Cable vs. Solid copper
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Welding helmet recommendation
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) You need a Welder - AC or DC stick welding?
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Busbars for Batteries
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Cable vs. Solid copper
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Alfa Romeo Conversion
by "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Liquid Nickel? was: Busbars for Batteries
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Fw: 12kw item.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Motor tips in reponse to James Massey
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Bob Lazar Hydrogen conversion kit
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Cable vs. Solid copper
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Kokam powered Electric Imp does 58 miles at 65 mph
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Kokam powered Electric Imp does 58 miles at 65 mph
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Welding helmet recommendation
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: wire gauge, was Re: Motor tips in reponse to James Massey
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I figure just going down the road will suck most of the 100 amps. I was
saving the batteries to climb the mountain pass between LA and the SJ
valley. I was also hoppin to control the output somewatt......... What have
people used to control the output of their gensets while toolin down the
road? LR.............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: 12kw item.
OK Lawernce..
12Kw and 100 amps is ....120 volts.
So the charger has to take a 100 amp feed continuosly...
That's a pair of PFC 50s... and you only get to use 1/2 the charger you
bought.
Better make it 50 amps of 240, then you can use one charger.
If the charger is just the genset and a Full wave bridge.... keep in mind
the heat in the diodes, and how are you going to control the output
voltage
and not fry the batteries.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: 12kw item.
That's where the 5 gallon water bottle/cooler comes in handy. Glub,
glub,
glub. Think the 12kw will put out 100 amps 24/7? LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: 12kw item.
> The diesels in the gensets use the basin type cooling
> setup. It's basically a small bathtub with water in
> it, surrounding the cylinder. as you run the genny you
> have to periodically fill the tub. I'm afraid that if
> you had it on a trailer you might lose all your water
> bouncing down the road.
>
> Gadget
> --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> This is the guy on ebay selling those Chinese
>> gensets. My Electravan draw
>> about 100 amps or less on flat freeways. He says
>> the 12kw unit will produce
>> this 24/7. I'd like to make a veggy oil range
>> extender to go to Southern
>> Cal with. This is the same Ebay vendor that was
>> receitly on the list. The
>> genset was about a grand. Worth the money? With
>> trailer and all it'll
>> weigh at least 500 pounds. Lawrence Rhodes.....
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joel A. Koch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 5:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: 12kw item.
>>
>>
>> > Hello Lawrence,
>> > A 12 KW generator head puts out 100 amps
>> continuous at 120 volts.
>> > Regards,
>> > Joel
>> >
>> > Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>> >
>> >> I am considering running an electric car with
>> your genset(long range.
>> >> Not for local use). I need 100 amps continuous.
>> Can your genset do
>> >> that? Be real nice if it could.
>> >> Lawrence Rhodes
>> >> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
>> >> Reedmaker
>> >> Book 4/5 doubler
>> >> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
>> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> 415-821-3519
>> >>
>>
>>
>
> visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4553064998
6(7?) passenger Fiat Minivan
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim,
FWIW when I was a young bench tech (a gazillion years ago), the EE's at my
company were into using company resources and advanced technology to maximize
slot cars. One of the interesting things we did was to vacuum epoxy impregnate
the motor rotors to keep them from throwing windings. I'm a newbie to ev, so
this may be inapplicable or old hat, not sure.
Other than timing on the brushes, is there any electrical way to soak up the
inductive kick and reduce spark erosion? Appropriately sized capacitors and/or
some form of diode come to mind.
Larry Skidmore
Retired from and returning to Portland, OR
Puebla, Mexico
Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback. It makes me realize how most of us run around with
what I�ll call � truths, or lets say incomplete truths. God help us if this
group could become truly collective (we�d need to keep Plasma Boy always from
final details to prevent a thermal nuclear vaporization of our world or so I�ve
heard). You can�t just join this group and not be amazed at the limitless
degrees of intelligence and shear hands on knowledge this group represents.
Even better is the fact that hard fought knowledge is so freely exchanged and
is not held in cloak and dagger style secretly held by one. Also does anyone no
how much longer we have before the oil companies discover this site and we all
mysteriously disappear leaving only monkeys left to re-climb the electric
evolutionary chain? lol. Sorry but I�m having fun here, as in 24 years of motor
building I�ve had precious few to bounce crazy motor ideas off of, and have
found none willing to test them hehehe.
As for the cable/solid question. My goal is to be able to build proto-type
motors at the lowest costs possible (I�m sponsoring Plasma Boy). On the yellow
beast / Purple Haze motor, I have around $100.00 and about 46 hours into it. I
don�t know Father Times costs and time on the aluminum plates we used to
lighten the motor, but that�s not bad to make our first variable timed motor.
My cable vs. solid question comes from the fact there is no low-tech way to
transfer the �A1� terminal to the brush ring on an adjustable brush ring,
without the use of a cable jumper in place of a solid one. As most of the newer
motors now sport cable leads in place of the older solid types, my question was
pertaining to if this was for better current draw or just ease in manufacturing
cost, and if there were any major drops in capacity comparing the two.
Thanks again
Jim Husted
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
---------------------------------
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Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The thought on bringing the brush leads out separately was to try to balance
the current in the brushes and to improve reliability.
At 1000 amps, the voltage loss in 8 inches of #10 wire running from one
brush to the other causes a serious imbalance in the current in the brushes.
The #10 wire also gets very warm going down the drag strip at so much
current.
There is not enough room inside the motor to put a large enough conductor to
reliably carry this kind of current, so the solution was to put the
conductor on the outside of the case and feed the cable in the center to
balance the current in the brushes. When the motors ran more reliably, we
considered it to be a reasonable solution.
If the rotating ring in the end bell has large enough bolt holes in it, is
it possible to use the attachment bolts as a conductor to get the current
through the case to the brush ring.
For example, Look at http://www.manzanitamicro.com/advanced.jpg and notice
the movable brush ring is attached to the teardrop shaped plate with the
four screws (only three are visible). If these four screws were 3/8 inch
diameter, they could be wired directly to each brush with the brush cross
connections being made outside the end bell.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Cable vs. Solid copper
My cable vs. solid question comes from the fact there is no low-tech way to
transfer the "A1" terminal to the brush ring on an adjustable brush ring,
without the use of a cable jumper in place of a solid one. As most of the
newer motors now sport cable leads in place of the older solid types, my
question was pertaining to if this was for better current draw or just ease
in manufacturing cost, and if there were any major drops in capacity
comparing the two.
>
> Thanks again
> Jim Husted
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 28 May 2005 23:53:39 -0500 (CDT), "Christopher Robison"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>A little over a year ago I bought a Hornell (now 3M) Speedglas 9002X with
>side windows, which was a lot more helmet than I really had any rational
>justification in buying.
I wish I'd bought one of those. I will the next time. I bought a
Hobard unit complete with racing flames :-) It has no adjustable
delay and the range of darkening adjustment is too narrow. But the
worst thing about the helmet that makes it a non-starter for many
part-time welders is that it is solar powered only. I may not go in
my shop for days, sometimes a (ugh) week or more at a time. The
battery is completely flat after that interval without light. It
takes quite some amount of exposure at close range to a 400 watt metal
halide lamp to input enough charge to be usable.
I've made it workable by parking it under a low wattage CF lamp but
that has a small but continuous cost. I really like the Hornell
approach of backing up a replaceable battery with the solar cell.
Maybe I'll hack mine someday and put a replaceable battery in it.
The built-in and fixed delay is just long enough to interfere with
stitch MIGing but not long enough to avoid the hot puddle syndrome
that Hornell mentions on the web site.
My vision's not so hot and I find the "off" filter too dark to see
details. Non-adjustable, of course. I address that with a 175 watt
metal halide lamp installed in a trouble light that I can position
near the work. It is bright enough that I can see work details even
when the hood is dimmed to "10" or less even without an arc.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am fascinated by considering all the various methods of welding.
I read in Google that many old timers use "buzz" boxes for welding with
great success.
I also read that there are AC only rods, AC/DC rods, and DC only rods.
There are inverter welders as well, some work on 12VDC.
What is a "Buzz" box?
What are the advantages/disadvantages of AC and DC rods.
What is the smallest, lightest, least costly welding system adequate for EV
use, independent of the learning curve?
On EBay I see 11 pounds of welding rod for under $20 delivered.
A rod holder for under $10, 20 feet of cable, and a current source, and we
can weld.
My big question; What kind of current source should I buy?
I do not mind learning a new skill.
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am saying to Liquid Nickle plate the copper. Wouldn't this work?
Lawrence Rhodes..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, you can use electronic commutation instead of mechanical commutation to
set the switch points. That means using transistors instead of brushes to
set the timing. This produces a BLDC, Switched Reluctance or Induction
Motor. These are available now.
The other lower tech way to compensate for this effect is to use Interpoles
or Face windings to get the armature current to shape the field flux to
where it should be. This has been done in the more expensive motors for over
60 years. Since price drives so many designs, it is not as common now as it
was last century.
The oldest method is to use movable brushes. This has been done for over a
century. They used to have a "human in the loop" to move the brushes on big
motors. I heard that It worked reasonably well but had reliability problems
with the human not paying attention and going blind in a short time from
watching the arc flashes. This is the method that is being tried in the drag
race motors but the idea is to have a controller in the loop to move the
brushes as programmed by the motor man on the race crew. The question is
whether to use a open loop algorithm or a closed loop control algorithm. We
should have answers within a year or two.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Skidmore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: Cable vs. Solid copper
> Jim,
>
> FWIW when I was a young bench tech (a gazillion years ago), the EE's at my
company were into using company resources and advanced technology to
maximize slot cars. One of the interesting things we did was to vacuum
epoxy impregnate the motor rotors to keep them from throwing windings. I'm
a newbie to ev, so this may be inapplicable or old hat, not sure.
>
> Other than timing on the brushes, is there any electrical way to soak up
the inductive kick and reduce spark erosion? Appropriately sized capacitors
and/or some form of diode come to mind.
>
> Larry Skidmore
> Retired from and returning to Portland, OR
> Puebla, Mexico
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello! I just purchased an Alfa Romeo EV conversion. Pictures and specs are
at http://www.skewray.com/alfa . There is also a very crude spreadsheet
computing various interesting quantities. I have some questions that someone
here is bound to know:
What are the formulas for rpm/power/torque curves for the Advanced DC motors?
I did a crude fit to my voltage in the spreadsheet on the web page, but
something better would be nice.
What is a good guess for the frictional drag? I WAG'ed a number. I know
there was a discussion recently here, but the units were not commensurate with
kW/kph.
The batteries are shot. I charged them up overnight, waited about six hours,
measured the voltages, drove about three miles, and measured again. I got:
batt before after
1 12.88 12.61
2 12.54 12.25
3 12.85 12.57
4 12.80 12.52
5 12.67 12.34
6 12.78 12.47
7 12.67 12.36
8 12.82 12.54
9 12.64 12.32
10 12.67 12.41
Is there some sort of recommended device I can use on each battery successively
that might actually revive these a bit?
Ultimately I only need to be able to drive to work and back twice in a day,
which totals about 9 miles. Given that, I am considering replacing the sicker
batteries with 24TMH batteries instead on 27TMH batteries to save weight and
money. At any rate, given that I am restricted to 12V batteries, what are the
perennial favorites here?
Brian
--
Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D. Astronomical Optical Engineering and Software
Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
Are you referring to a particular product, like MG Chemicals' "Liquid Tin"?
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/421.html
If so, could you provide a URL for where you've seen it? Is it this stuff?
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/840.html
And if so, would its "acrylic base" increase resistance, or for some other
reason be a bad idea in a high-current connection? Beyond that, the
closest-looking product I've found, searching on Google (I don't even know
if this is a reasonable guess):
http://www.palminc.com/chemicals/liquid_nickel_sulfate.htm
If a product like Liquid Tin exists that deposits a plating of relatively
pure nickel without needing electroplating equipment, I might be
interested in testing its durability on bus bars for nicads. Otherwise,
I'll might soon be looking into electroplating shops nearby.
--chris
Lawrence Rhodes said:
> I am saying to Liquid Nickle plate the copper. Wouldn't this work?
> Lawrence Rhodes..........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Remember to add the drag of the trailer to your power consumption. Sheer
found out that towing his genset to Woodburn almost doubled his current draw
at freeway speed. Make the trailer as low as possible. Putting the bottom of
the genset BELOW the centerline of the trailer axle helps considerably. You
can do that by installing a dropped floor ahead of the axle. You will need
some counterweight to help lighten the tongue of the trailer. The space
behind the axle can be fuel tank and cargo area.
Regarding control of the genset, I would put a solenoid on the governor to
pull it back to idle when you stop at stoplights or stop signs. It was
really annoying to have the genset running at 3600 RPM when stopped.
If the genset is governed to 3600 (or 1800) RPM, the governor will hold the
genset RPM down when the PFC chargers back off on the current. When the
chargers start pulling current again, the load will go up and the throttle
will increase to hold the frequency steady.
If you use just diodes, the control problem becomes much more complicated.
You will need to take control of the governor, which may not be trivial. If
you have a Regbus and Rudman Regulators on all your batteries, you could
have the bus signal pull the throttle back whenever the full line is
activated. It would be simple to implement but would cause surging when the
batteries get full if there is no integrator on the signal.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: 12kw item.
> I figure just going down the road will suck most of the 100 amps. I was
> saving the batteries to climb the mountain pass between LA and the SJ
> valley. I was also hoppin to control the output somewatt......... What
have
> people used to control the output of their gensets while toolin down the
> road? LR.............
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: 12kw item.
>
>
> > OK Lawernce..
> >
> > 12Kw and 100 amps is ....120 volts.
> >
> > So the charger has to take a 100 amp feed continuosly...
> > That's a pair of PFC 50s... and you only get to use 1/2 the charger you
> > bought.
> > Better make it 50 amps of 240, then you can use one charger.
> >
> > If the charger is just the genset and a Full wave bridge.... keep in
mind
> > the heat in the diodes, and how are you going to control the output
> > voltage
> > and not fry the batteries.
> >
> > Madman
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 10:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: Fw: 12kw item.
> >
> >
> >> That's where the 5 gallon water bottle/cooler comes in handy. Glub,
> >> glub,
> >> glub. Think the 12kw will put out 100 amps 24/7? LR..........
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 9:05 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Fw: 12kw item.
> >>
> >>
> >> > The diesels in the gensets use the basin type cooling
> >> > setup. It's basically a small bathtub with water in
> >> > it, surrounding the cylinder. as you run the genny you
> >> > have to periodically fill the tub. I'm afraid that if
> >> > you had it on a trailer you might lose all your water
> >> > bouncing down the road.
> >> >
> >> > Gadget
> >> > --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >> This is the guy on ebay selling those Chinese
> >> >> gensets. My Electravan draw
> >> >> about 100 amps or less on flat freeways. He says
> >> >> the 12kw unit will produce
> >> >> this 24/7. I'd like to make a veggy oil range
> >> >> extender to go to Southern
> >> >> Cal with. This is the same Ebay vendor that was
> >> >> receitly on the list. The
> >> >> genset was about a grand. Worth the money? With
> >> >> trailer and all it'll
> >> >> weigh at least 500 pounds. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Joel A. Koch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> >> To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> >> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 5:17 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: 12kw item.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Hello Lawrence,
> >> >> > A 12 KW generator head puts out 100 amps
> >> >> continuous at 120 volts.
> >> >> > Regards,
> >> >> > Joel
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> I am considering running an electric car with
> >> >> your genset(long range.
> >> >> >> Not for local use). I need 100 amps continuous.
> >> >> Can your genset do
> >> >> >> that? Be real nice if it could.
> >> >> >> Lawrence Rhodes
> >> >> >> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> >> >> >> Reedmaker
> >> >> >> Book 4/5 doubler
> >> >> >> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> >> >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> >> 415-821-3519
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philip Marino [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Two wires of the same actual gauge will have exactly the same
> cross sectional area of copper. The gauge is determined by
> the total amount of copper, not the outer diameter.
Absolutely correct.
> Of course, some wire manufacturers "cheat" when it comes to
> wire gauge, and not all wires labeled the same gauge have
> exactly the same amount of copper in them ( like they should).
"Cheat" might be a bit strong. I expect that there is some tolerance
allowed on the crossectional area such that as long as the cable is
within this variance it can perfectly validly be labelled as guage X.
That said, some manufacturers do aim a bit closer to the ideal than
others, and so a pair of quality 2/0 cables from different manufacturers
will have slightly different actual gauge.
E.g.:
Carol Super Vu-Tron 2/0: 3300 strands of 34ga = 0.1029 sq inches
Essex Super Excelene 2/0: 1330 strands of 30ga = 0.1097 sq. inches
Prestolite Prestoflex 2/0: 1408 strands of 30ga = 0.1162 sq. inches
2/0 is "offically" 0.1045 sq. inches crossection.
> As far as buss bars vs cables, the bus bars will generally
> keep cooler (if they are flat stock with more cooling
> surface area than the cable) and lower temperatures mean
> lower resistance. So, even bus bars with the same area of
> copper as the cable they are replacing will probably be better.
Even more important than the possible reduction in resistance due to
lower temperature rise, I think, is the elimination of the resistance
associated with the termination of the cable.
For instance, 2/0 is spec'ed at 0.0779 ohms/1000ft, or 77.9 micro ohms
per foot. 1/8"x1" buss bar is spec'ed 65.8 micro ohms per foot (the
slightly greater crossection accounts for the 15% improvement). Numbers
bandied about here have suggested that a resistance between battery
posts of about 0.0001 ohms (100 micro ohms) for a cable with connectors
on each end is good, and that a crimped connection could vary from 0.001
ohm (poor) to 11 micro ohms (good) to 8 micro ohms (crimped and
soldered) each.
Assuming the best case of 8 micro ohms per termination, they add 20% to
the resistance of a 1 foot 2/0 interconnect.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Bob Lazar? That name sounds familiar...
>
> >
> [..]
>
> Never mind hydrogen, ask him for an antimatter drive :)
>
> --
>
> EVan
> http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
>
If you followed the UFO segment. it's a Anti Gravity drive, controllable
focusable and VERY powerful.
It's amazing what you can find on the upper Cable channels late at night
,while half a wake.....
Umm Yea.....
Why don't they ever abduct somebody like ME??? I just might learn a LOT....
Come ON I want a Ride!!!
I will leave the Antimatter drive to this month's Scientific American... or
at least the production of Anti Hydrogen.
I don't think this guy would be the right one for real electric drives....
he thrives on the Semi-educated.
Madman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim If the MCM of the copper wire is the same as teh solid buss bar they are
the exact same losses and voltage drops.
We are going to need flexable leads if we are going to move the
brushes... so we need the flex fine strand wire.
The simplest major current pathway improvements are adding a brush stud bolt
for every brush tower, then using 0/4 on the outside to connect the Bursh
pairs.
This works and works well and is rather cheap.
But you have to ask... of the small copper brush leads and the jumper
wire are NOT purple in color from over temperture, Why add more weight to
the motor?
This becomes a question of what is enough and what is a waste of assets.
Most of the cooked brush leads I have seen came from sever Arcing, and other
nasties, not just plain too many amps
and not enough copper.
The last brush Boo Boo I did was a Lack of cooling and 500 to 750
continuous amps for miles or running. Nothing failed, But....A lot more
copper would have helped.
Doing the same run with 5000 rpm ... nothing got hot....So... In a racing 15
second blast... there was plenty of copper. This was a 4 Brush posted motor.
The brush leads themselves overheated. Not the interconnects.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Cable vs. Solid copper
>
>
> Thanks for all the feedback. It makes me realize how most of us run
around with what I'll call � truths, or lets say incomplete truths. God
help us if this group could become truly collective (we'd need to keep
Plasma Boy always from final details to prevent a thermal nuclear
vaporization of our world or so I've heard). You can't just join this group
and not be amazed at the limitless degrees of intelligence and shear hands
on knowledge this group represents. Even better is the fact that hard
fought knowledge is so freely exchanged and is not held in cloak and dagger
style secretly held by one. Also does anyone no how much longer we have
before the oil companies discover this site and we all mysteriously
disappear leaving only monkeys left to re-climb the electric evolutionary
chain? lol. Sorry but I'm having fun here, as in 24 years of motor building
I've had precious few to bounce crazy motor ideas off of, and have found
none willing to test them hehehe.
>
>
>
> As for the cable/solid question. My goal is to be able to build
proto-type motors at the lowest costs possible (I'm sponsoring Plasma Boy).
On the yellow beast / Purple Haze motor, I have around $100.00 and about 46
hours into it. I don't know Father Times costs and time on the aluminum
plates we used to lighten the motor, but that's not bad to make our first
variable timed motor. My cable vs. solid question comes from the fact there
is no low-tech way to transfer the "A1" terminal to the brush ring on an
adjustable brush ring, without the use of a cable jumper in place of a solid
one. As most of the newer motors now sport cable leads in place of the
older solid types, my question was pertaining to if this was for better
current draw or just ease in manufacturing cost, and if there were any major
drops in capacity comparing the two.
>
> Thanks again
> Jim Husted
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Plasma Boy.... didn't I show you the results of too many amps on a Kokam???
You vaporize one of the terminal posts.
That was at 800 + amps I hear.
Still pretty good!
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: Kokam powered Electric Imp does 58 miles at 65 mph
> Hello to All,
>
> I'm very impressed with this report, way to go, guys!
>
> ProEV wrote:
>
> > Our pack consists of 88 cells and weighs about 379 lbs.
> >
>
> Compare this to lead. Though I get very high acceleration
> performance from AGM lead acid batteries, the 585 lbs. of Optimas take my
2340 lb. EV 25
> miles per charge, driving it easy, 20 miles or so with my foot deep into
it. Now, here's a
> pack 200 lbs. 'lighter' that runs a car 110-120 miles...incredible! That's
about 8 times
> the range per charge, for a given weight in batteries! Of course, a pack
of 13 Optimas is
> only $1400-$1500.
>
> How do these cells fare at 1000 amps? Is that known yet, or would they be
damaged by such
> currents? I suspect they are limited to low currents around 400 amps and
less.
>
> Way to go on that range. Hearing your report about traveling on the
freeway for an hour
> and still having 50% of the pack ready to give more range, reminded me of
my 4 day trip
> years ago in an EV1, but even with the advanced (for the period) NiMH
batteries, it was
> still 1100 lbs. of batteries....379 lbs. of batteries with that kind of
range? Amazing!
> I went 120 miles on a charge with a lead powered pickup, a 440 mile road
trip that still
> brings back fond memories, but geesh, that took 2500 lbs. of wet cells!
>
> I'm looking forward to reading more as you guys learn more.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea I have a Zilla 2K also... But years of building Raptors and Rexs and
Quad Rod Scarers....
Before that I did 3 or so Curtii rehabs... and more than my share of one
offs.
So... I would love to take the Curtii... power stage and slap it on a Water
cooled chill plate. Stuff in the BEST not the cheapest Mosfets, Beef up the
gate drive, add a current control mode shut and DSP controller, And
Scare the Crap out of Otmar....
This also goes for The T-Rex controllers that I DID have a hand in
building.... I Assume.....I could make a LOT stronger flavor that I did 7
years ago...Damon and I have not actually been sitting on your Butts for the
last few years. He bailed out of IGBT controls, I use them exclusively, So
does Otmar... So you all can figure out Who learned what from who.
The point of this thread is Even a lowly 400 amp 120 volt Curtii would be a
nice unit if it could scrub the heat it makes faster. In fact it could out
perform a Raptor 1200 in the 15 minute window, if the Curtii was water
cooled. We might want to mill the alum plate down... and adjust some other
heatsink problems with the Curtti... But spend the bucks, and add the right
engineering, and Hey... You get a better controller.
The Raptors that I was involved with made 1800 amps for the first 1/2 second
and then dropped to 1200 for about 15 seconds, then thermalled back from
there. But ...they recovered with about 30 seconds of cool down time, and
could do it again, before you got the car slowed back down the legal Speed
posted. This was fast enough for most folks to never know the edge of their
Raptor.
Once hot a Curtis with out a heatsink took many minutes to 1/2 a hour to
cool down. On a decent finned sink this drops to about 180 seconds, good
enough to pull some decent hills.
Then we have the reliability Factor. Curtii, about a year if you are lucky..
the Zilla, Decades.... even run hard. Now what do you customers want???
cheap power, Affordable, No water cooling, and 5 years of life??? That can
be done for about 1/2 the cost. It's a matter of guessing what life span is
acceptable to your customer and what will they pay for.
There is no doubt that Otmar and I can design for years worth of reliable
service, But that makes for expensive gear.
Stuffing 1000 amps of Fets in a rebuilt Curtis case, dialing up the Amps,
then handing it off as a 1000 amp controller, is cheap and easy. How many
folks can say they have done this and have more than a year's worth of On
Road time on the controller???? Not many I hear, and there have been more
than a few returns. Put this same controller in a Golfcart, and 10 small
AGMS, and wimpy cable, and run it a few times a month, maybe... and you have
a nice show Cart, with maybe a hour run time a year on it. Yup.... should
work pretty good in that application.
But... You can see the limits... and the trade offs. No matter how tough
they get built there is some fool who will find a way to break it. Otmar
fears My dyno... As well he should I can do stuff to motors and controllers
that is just plain Rude.. and take picture while I am at it...
For the most part a Zilla 2K can dish out the watts faster than the
batteries can make it and for longer than the motor can take it. So I think
my Z2K is pretty safe.
Until Jim and John get here.... ask for How many amps and for how long?????
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
> At 12:45 PM 27/05/05 -0700, cowtown wrote:
> >I guess there's a demand for mega-controllers in the golf cart business,
> >because
> >these guys supposedly have 72v/1000a ones for ~$500 and 120v/1000a for
~$700:
> >
> >LogiSystems
>
> I'd guess that'd be a case more of runaway spec-manship. Like the curtis
> 450A that can only make that for a certain number of seconds, but is
really
> a 250A controller. But if there is a combined 1000A rating of power
devices
> in the unit, call it 1000A. Which wouldn't alter the 250A continuous
rating.
>
> I see this in all sorts of places and ways. As an example, a customer
> turned up with a "195-Amp" welder on the back seat of a car. I looked and
> asked myself 'how did they get that in there, how do we get it out?'.
> Turned out to be a cheap Italian machine in a big case. 195A at something
> like 3% duty cycle! I was able to pick it up with arms outstreached and
> walk away with it.
>
> You get what you pay for (I bought a Zilla).
>
> James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok lets start with the basics.
Yes from the motor curves we can say about 1000 amps makes about 200 ftlbs.
Extrapolate the curves from the ones we get from Advanced DC.
Next point.
200 Hp where?? What RPM?? 200 Hp is 200 Ftlbs of torque at 5252 rpm. This
is a fact. Around which you need to jockey the unknowns.
Otmar's rule of thumb is...never let more than 170 motor volts hit a AvDC
motor, more than that and you will have aLOT of brush arcing. My testing
bears this out.
You won't even get close to 120 motor volts without properly broken in
brushes and Advanced timing.
The chart... to get 1000 amps to flow... is easy with a stalled motor. But
getting 1000 amps to flow with spinning motor, you need voltage.
So.. at 5000 rpm, and only 170 volts of possible motor voltage.... how many
amps will flow? This answers your torque question.
The best guess is that 1000 amps and 120 volts will make 200 ftlbs of torque
at about 2500 rpm. On a 8 inch motor. This is about 95 Hp.
To get your 200 Hp you will need 2000 amps or 240 volts. With 240 volts you
will need some real timing and brush work, and maybe field adjustments to
survive 1000 amps.
2000 amps needs the Zilla 2K.
Or... redesign your motor to draw 1000 amps While spinning at 5000 rpm.
Simply put AvDC and 9 inch motors have about 1/2 the RPM to volts we need to
make 200 Hp with only 1000 amps or 170 volts.
The motors have to be lugged to about 2500 to 2800 rpm to pull these amps
with this voltage.
The massive torque that 2000 amps and a locked rotor on the starting line
gives you makes for broken parts and smoked tires... But... the actual
horsepower you make down there is pretty slim.
This is why the single ratio EV that are running with basically stock series
motors, could massively benefit from transmissions. They just don't have
both torque and Hp at the same time.
Or you can find a really light EV...say a tin can DATsun, and do well, Or
Spend 15 years tweaking a motor and put it in a 1400 Rail, and have all
sorts of dynamic motor tricks to keep the motor alive while the loads keep
changing as you go down the track..
So answers:
Max sane voltage on a 9" is 170.
Fireballs at more volts....But they of course can be
rebuilt, or run until they fail...without knowing it.
About 200 Ftlbs at 1000 amps. Better data when we find it or record
it.
Can a single 9" make 200 Hp, Yes Above 150 volts and about 2000
amps. And just over 2000 rpm
Not likely with a Zilla 1K, without some real motor mods with
attention to High RPMs and high voltage survival.
It is of course possible...but not with the AvDC 9 incher as we
know it
Things get really interesting with 750 amps and 240 volts or
more on the motor. But... Arcing can go from barely noticeable to sever
pretty quickly at this point.
Getting real data from motor manufactures Above the designed levels, is
rather hard. Getting data that is repeatable... is even harder.
I would have hoped that Warp motors, being Racers and all ,would have
procured measured curves out to 2000 amps by this time.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: 9" Warp motor for drag racing
> Out of curiousity, what is the max motor voltage the 9'' can
> handle @ 1,000 amps, and what kind of torque can it make at
> higher current levels from about 700 amps to 1,000 amps?
> Could a single WarP 9'' make 200 horsepower, and if so,
> would it be able to make it at about 5,000 rpm with near 200
> lb-ft, or will it require a Zilla 2k and make masive torque
> and this amount of power at a low rpm?
>
> Has anyone constructed any reliable equations to describe
> its behavior? My search for torque data for the higher amp
> levels of a WarP 9 incher has remained unsuccessful,
> although I did come across some of Otmar's data on his 8''
> motors.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
How do these cells fare at 1000 amps? Is that known yet, or would they be
damaged by such
currents? I suspect they are limited to low currents around 400 amps and
less.
Kokam says max of 5C continuous, 10C Peak. For the 70 amp-hr battery, that
is 350 amps continuous, 700 amps peak. We have not tested above those levels
because our AC motors can only use <700 amps.
Kokam warns if you discharge at higher than recommended rates you will
probably see a reduction in capacity. The capacity should come back after a
few normal cycles. They also warn the cell might have a shorter life.
We did a continuous discharge at 10C with both a 40 amp-hr cell and a 70
amp-hr cell. At 10C we got 37 amp-hrs (92%) and 58 amp-hrs (82%). The 70
amp-hr reading may be a little pessimistic because it was the second time we
tried to do a 10C continuous discharge to the same cell. The first time we
still had the cell in a foam container and it got warmer then Kokam
recommends so we aborted the test. Details are at
http://www.proev.com/BatLog/Kkm0002.htm and http://www.proev.com/P1Spec.htm.
We did some 1C capacity checks on the 70 amp-hr cell afterwards and the cell
read 71 amp-hrs which was about what we tested before. We are now using the
cell in our pack.
As Aaron points out:
<I dunno about the big cells... But I use Kokam PiPoly cells in my toy
airplanes. These are high-power cells, and rated for discharge
at 10C to 20C. I don't have any planes that do more than about
15C, but I've done short bursts at 15C with no heating noted.
Bursts long enough to run a drag race, certainly.>
Kokam, in response to requests from Radio Control pilots, came out with a
20C continuous cell that gives 90% of rated 1C capacity. I think they
should be able to do the same for us if there is a market. There might be
trade off though like less cycle life the more often you run max amps.
Way to go on that range. Hearing your report about traveling on the
freeway for an hour
and still having 50% of the pack ready to give more range, reminded me of
my 4 day trip
years ago in an EV1, but even with the advanced (for the period) NiMH
batteries, it was
still 1100 lbs. of batteries....379 lbs. of batteries with that kind of
range? Amazing!
I went 120 miles on a charge with a lead powered pickup, a 440 mile road
trip that still
brings back fond memories, but geesh, that took 2500 lbs. of wet cells!
I'm looking forward to reading more as you guys learn more.
Thanks. We are having fun!
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I address that with a 175 watt
metal halide lamp installed in a trouble light that I can position
near the work. It is bright enough that I can see work details even
when the hood is dimmed to "10" or less even without an arc.
I use one of those halogen reflector type work lamps with the
glass cover. The cover keeps the spatter from cracking the bulb. The light
is bright enough that I can see pretty well with a plain old-fashioned
helmet. I use the "winker" helmet with it as well.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I think I remember in a similar discusion hearing that the "gauge"
> of the wire is based on the amount of copper and not purely the
> diameter, making 8 gauge stranded and 8 gauge solid [have] the
> same current capacity.
Correct. The gauge is defined by the cross-sectional area of the copper.
Thus 8 gauge stranded is physically larger than 8 gauge solid, due to
the air spaces between strands. Both have the same resistance per foot,
and the same weight per foot (neglecting insulation).
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
