EV Digest 4424
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: V2G - is not OT ...it is not POLITICAL either
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Gadget's EV show?
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Monster Garage does a golfcart?
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE: Ranger EV Battery Pack Core Fee
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: V2G - and Open Source EV Resource.
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Fwd: Re: reverse with an advanced timed motor
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Taming the wild Curtis controller
by "Jon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Taming the wild Curtis controller
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Click Clack (was: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Power of DC Dinner Friday Evening
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Power of DC Friday Night Dinner
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: V2G - is not OT ...it is not POLITICAL either
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Vehicle GVWR explanations please?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Zapi Controler 120v with Regen
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Click Clack (was: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?)
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Power of DC - Friday Night
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re:CE news
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: ProEV Electric Imp to autocross this weekend
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Zapi Controler 120v with Regen
by "Paulcompton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: alternator as motor
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Zapi Controler 120v with Regen
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: PowerPoints on EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
28) Non-Linear Curtis controller
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
With all due respect to those who have responded - while this subject is
peripherally applicable to EVs, I disagree with the 95% estimate of
applicability.
More important, I think, is the reason for the original posting. Unless I'm
mistaken (I could be remembering wrong) it was not in response to a
question about charging an EV with grid intertie PV. Instead, it seems to
have been an effort to engender activist participation in some kind of protest
against utility policies.
I'm sympathetic with the issue, and certainly there are issues where this list
is the right place to prompt activism. However, I honestly think this isn't
such
an issue.
Therefore, although I'm not going to actually push anybody to cut the thread,
I'd like to politely discourage extensive discussion of it on this list. I
believe
that it would be better suited to the Alternative Energy list, and I suggest
that
the participants move it there if at all possible, or discuss it off-list.
If you disagree with that view, please email me privately with your argument.
The address is :
ev_nospam_dl (at) dr_nospam_mm (period) net
(Obviously you remove the _nospam_ junk, including the underscores, and
replace the stuff in parentheses with the right punctuation.)
Thanks for your understanding.
David Roden
EV List Assistant Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the name of Gadget's show?
The show is in the works, we probably will start shooting in the fall.
The title is to be announced.
Thanks! Not trying to jump the gun. I was just concerned I was missing
it. Thanks for the update. I look forward to hearing more when things
hit production.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I happen to come up to you on Saturday and scream something like..
" Why don't you get off your lazy a$$ and help get the fu#$%ng dragster built,
before I have to shove my size 12 up
yer a$$." Please don't take it personal.
Naah forget that, it ain't gonna happen, I ain't that way!!
So be forewarned, while I may say something like that, it is just me being
fecal.(funny)
And I definately won't scream it, this is a family event y'know.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 1:18 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage does a golfcart?
>
> Very excellent point Gadget! They were trying to steer me that direction
> also but I kept telling them I'm not that kind of a$$hole, although they try
> their hardest to turn you into one :-)
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage does a golfcart?
>
>
>> That has been the ongoing battle with the executive
>> producer. we do what we think is a good informative
>> show witha lot of heart... then the executive producer
>> tells us it needs to be more like American chopper
>> cause that is Discovery's top show. Since when did a
>> show ever become great by copying another show?
>>
>>
>> Gadget
>>
>> --- Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Am I the only one who finds that show mostly
>>> annoying? That announcer
>>> they got ... yeesh. Both Monster Garage and
>>> American Chopper need less
>>> gab, and more fab(rication). AC is pretty much a
>>> soap opera ...
>>>
>>> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>>>
>>> > http://www.htelectricmotors.com/news091704.htm I
>>> stumbled upon this
>>> > while surfing.
>>> > Lawrence Rhodes
>>> > Bassoon/Contrabassoon
>>> > Reedmaker
>>> > Book 4/5 doubler
>>> > Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
>>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> > 415-821-3519
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>> visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.6 - Release Date: 6/8/2005
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.6 - Release Date: 6/8/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I emailed Battery MD weeks ago about reviving old Delphi 8v modules and they
don't want the business. A shame. I have numerous that could use revival.
Anybody have ideas about reviving these batteries. I have a few that have
low voltage but the cases aren't swelling. Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 4:56 PM
Subject: IMPORTANT NOTICE: Ranger EV Battery Pack Core Fee
This is a courtesy notice to warn people potentially bidding on
Ranger EVs that come without battery packs:
Along with the price of a new "remanufactured" Ranger EV battery
pack, there is an additional core fee of $1,000 that will be charged in
the
event that the original battery pack core is not returned at the time
that a
new one is purchased. This is similar to what is presently done when
normal
12V batteries are sold and cores are not returned.
Ford and Battery M.D. have established a system to keep Ranger EV
parts available to owners for a very long time (numerous years).
This system; however, is dependent on the core packs being returned
to Battery M.D. so that new packs can be built using the old tubs.
Without tubs and the corresponding electronics inside these packs,
the ability to supply parts long term will be severely jeopardized.
If everyone works together, a long term supply of parts can be
assured. This is such an important issue that Ford is willing to pay for
the
transportation of the core back to Battery M.D. for this expressed
purpose.
FYI, this core fee is in the process of being raised to $3,000 to
better represent the value of the BCM, wiring, thermal management
system and control system that is in the pack and to discourage abuse of
the
system.
We do not want the buyers of these vehicles to be penalized so we
hope this public notice will provide ample warning to the potential
bidders and allow you to factor this into your buying decision.
Please spread the word to your friends so this is not a surprise.
Thank you,
Battery M.D.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Suzuki Samurai was about 2100 lbs. Someone here measured his to
have surprisingly high drivetrain losses.
--- Stu or Jan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I LOVE this forum! I ask a question and in a few hours in comes
> your great
> reference to a 1410 pound 4WD ICE.
>
> I believe that if a 2,000 pound hybrid conversion could be
> achieved, we
> would have a really practical vehicle.
>
> Less weight vehicle = less power = smaller motor = fewer batteries
> = cheaper
> controller = less battery weight = smaller diameter wire = less
> robust
> drivetrain torque handling capability= smaller tires (tyres) = less
> weight
> tires.
>
> I wonder if any Justys are around today?
>
> Are there any other candidates?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well Steve, I for one am kicking myself for missing the conference.
I've just rescently been contributing to the wikipedia.org site,
and have added a V2G Page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_to_Grid
I think it's a great idea ( but not many seem to care what I think )
The way I see it V2G is the "Ideal" that we might strive to achieve.
If you like BEV's (which I assume we all do, for whatever reason) then
you can not help but have a grid connected charger for your batteries.
Since you've got batteries wouldn't it be great to allow them to be
used in as many ways as possible? Not simply to move the car down the
road. So, what else can you use them for? How about a backup system
for your home or workshop or even a small inverter to run some toys!
One step better would be an inverter that plays nicely with the grid.
This too shouldn't require much streatching of our imaginations, after
all isn't that pretty much what our modern motor controllers do,
expecially those brushless motors that we all wish we could afford?
So, in the end we would have a single versital device which would act
as a motor contrller, battery charger, and high power grid inverter!
What's not to like? Now put such a device into production, focus on
quality and effeciency and we have an affordable All-In-Wonder Super
Device! With all the features we can imagin wanting in our BEV/PHEV.
So if right now we've got nothing! Almost... ( No offense intended )
( We've got fork lift motors, that we're digging out of the dirt )
( We've got car batteries and laptop cells ) ( And that's all good )
.oo( Nothing but Love to all of you who do so many Great Things!! )
But, if there's anything that we should be comming together to get
behind and try to bring into production for the benefit of everyone
Then This Is It!
This V2G Stuff is the ultimate central electrical energy conversion
device, it's exactly what every one of us would like to have!
Aside from such a devices our other major components of interest are:
Motors and Batteries. ( Perhaps ICE's and their sub-systems )
So what's the problem people?
L8r
Ryan
ps. So maybe you don't need all these frills and extra functions,
perhaps such technology is a threat to your livelyhood, maybe you
prefer to do it your way your self, insert your excuses here.
Common folks, Dig deep down and grab a big handfull of morality.
This is good stuff!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder what the lightest 4WD car is?)
Ever, or that you can find in the US without a ton of effort and expense?
The latter would probably be a late-1980s Tercel or Colt Vista wagon. Just
gut the existing drivetrain, swap in the conventional FWD tranny, and rig
up a motor and reduction to drive the rear wheels.
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< <RANT>
I know some will say "look in the archive", but going through the Yahoo archive
is like pulling
teeth. When you do a search it just brings you to the first digest email (a
whole days worth of
postings in one file) and then you have scroll through it to find anything. It's
a little easier
if you cut all 500+ lines and paste them in a text editor for searching. No way
to follow threads,
no way to jump to the next hit. I'm not interested in changing the format of the
list, I'm just
looking for a reasonable means to search the archives. Does anyone know of a
better facility?
</RANT> >>>
Don't use the "ev" group, use the "ev-list-archive" group's search field and
keep hitting next until the individual post comes up - works for me and no
scrolling needed. It does help if you know approximately when a subject came up
in discussion.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I assume its a 1231 "on road" version... I know that one had a pedal
position current limit that is suitable for EV's although Curtis' sensing
method (sat drop) doesn't work well at low duty cycle, right when you are
talking about. They put a low frequency circuit to try to help with current
sensing at low duty cycle, but it doesn't work well either. Do you have the
full part number of the control?
Jon Davis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gnat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 4:38 PM
Subject: Taming the wild Curtis controller
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for taming down the initial lurch
> when backing up? The controller is a 1231, motor is a 9"ADC, and
> currently is running on 108volts. The problem is only going to get
> worse when the 144v pack is installed. Car is a Escort wagon running
> a clutched 5 speed.
>
> Dave
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gnat wrote:
> Does anyone have any suggestions for taming down the initial lurch
> when backing up? The controller is a 1231, motor is a 9"ADC, and
> currently is running on 108 volts. The problem is only going to get
> worse when the 144v pack is installed. Car is a Escort wagon running
> a clutched 5 speed.
There are a couple possible causes for this problem. The simpler one is
that the very low gear ratio of your transmission in reverse makes the
accellerator overly sensitive. And, if you slip forward on the seat as
the car moves backwards, your foot may inadvertently depress the
accellerator pedal further, exaggerating the problem.
The easiest solution to this problem is to add a resistor across the
potbox when you shift into reverse. I would use a 5k trimpot, and switch
it across the potbox when the transmission's "reverse" switch closes to
turn on the backup lights. The lower you set the resistance of this
trimpot, the less throttle it allows (since low resistance = low speed
on this controller). You can set this trimpot so that even if you
"floored it" in reverse, it would only produce mild accelleration.
The more difficult possibility is that your controller is not able to go
into current limit with such a large motor. This is most likely the
problem if you have a -B controller (1231B, not 1231C). The -C
controllers have a design change to fix this problem.
The -B controllers always switch at 15 KHz. If the motor inductance is
very low (and it is for the ADC 9" motor), and the pack voltage is very
high (over 100v, and yours is), then the controller's minimum on-time at
15 KHz is still too long for current limit to work. The result is that
the motor has a minimum speed it can run at; when started, it abruptly
speeds up from 0 to this speed, producing the lurch.
If you *do* have a -B controller, you can eliminate the reverse problem
by replacing it with a -C controller. Or some other brand than Curtis;
others do not have this particular problem.
But, that is an expensive. A cheaper alternative is to add a resistor in
series with the motor in reverse. This will require a big contactor
capable of carrying full motor current, though the voltage it sees is
quite low. This contactor is closed when in forward, and opened in
reverse so the resistor is in the circuit. The "resistor" only needs to
be a fraction of an ohm. It could be a purchased resistor from C&H Sales
or other source, or just a length of steel banding strap or coathanger
wire. As above, the resistor works by limiting the maximum motor
current, so the controller's throttle can work normally.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< IMHO regen is a waste because there is too little power gained from braking.
Without regen, you have a 3 cyl engine in front giving about 40mpg and if
500lb of battery/motor will be sufficient, you have a 2 or possibly a 4
seater ~2,000lb hybrid.
Another possibility is to place a whopping alternator on the engine that is
energized when braking. Pushing amps into the batteries should slow you
down and it would be a 'regen' brake-saving system. >>>
Have you ever driven an EV with regen?!
Turning the throttle towards zero on my Lambretta demands a good grip on the
handlebars to prevent pitching over them! I find the rear-wheel-only stopping
power from regen much more impressive than pulling *both* the 45 year old drum
brakes, and works like ABS to almost 0 mph.
The 4QD-300-48 controller is set for max accel/decel + shortest ramp; I have no
idea how much is going back into the pack, but I think it peaks about 200A -
from top speed, that could be upwards of 10Kw (I hope to never be in a
situation that needs *that much* braking force!)
Speaking of which, anyone know an simple way to turn on the brake lights
whenever the regen is engaged? I've got 4QD's pdf file and all I see is an
electromechanical brake circuit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:04 AM 6/7/2005, you wrote:
On 6 Jun 2005 at 20:34, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Should we EV'rs get in that habit? Clutched or clutchless, at a stop, pull
> it out of gear!
I know some here disagree - they don't like the clack-clack noise - but I
think a DC ev should have at least one contactor that opens when the brake
is depressed and/or the accelerator is released. If just one of these, the
latter is preferable.
Each time this contactor closes, a surge current flows into the
controller caps. They can only take so many of these. By temperature
cycling the pre-charge resistor constantly, instead of twice per day, it
will make it much more likely to fail. If the pre-charge resistor opens up,
this will cause an enormous surge, which can cause the controller to fail,
possibly full on.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: Non-Linear Curtis controller
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:58:40 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi,
The Curtis pot set-up is non-linear in the *wrong direction* with a two wire
pot and pull-up. I designed my own controller bringing out the third pot
wire so it's now a voltage source with the wiper going into the controller.
ideally a logarithmic audio taper should be used where half throttle
depression results in 1/4th motor torque and then ramps up exponentially
from there. A way to simulate this is to put about 1/4th the resistance of
the pot (I use a 2.2k from wiper to ground) which forces the non-linear
response (on a linear pot) in the proper direction. Try setting this up on
the Curtis with the voltage pin configuration (for a 3-wire pot), I believe
there is this option on the 1221/1231 when I was fooling with them (and then
set the wiper shunt resistor to about 1k on a 5k pot and that should give
smooth start response.)
Mark
www.solectrol.com .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: Taming the wild Curtis controller
> Grease the hardware and easy on the pedal. I try to listen for the safety
> switch click and have the linkage tight after that happens and make sure
it
> engages shortly there after. Also a pot that has a different scale might
> help. Changes slowly at first and then at the last half of the throw of
the
> pot goes to 5 k. It also might be a dirty pot that jumps up in resistance
> too quick. I have frequently had trouble even with that technique and
> sometimes I feather the clutch. Lawrence Rhodes...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gnat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 1:38 PM
> Subject: Taming the wild Curtis controller
>
>
> >
> > Does anyone have any suggestions for taming down the initial lurch
> > when backing up? The controller is a 1231, motor is a 9"ADC, and
> > currently is running on 108volts. The problem is only going to get
> > worse when the 144v pack is installed. Car is a Escort wagon running
> > a clutched 5 speed.
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
--- End Message ---
