EV Digest 4426
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) GEM cars
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) RE: Lithium safety?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EV list digest mode incomplete digest?
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Regen for free or costly, was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) RE: GEM cars
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EV Digest 4425... not coming through
by William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: GEM cars
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: More SIADIS questions...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Lithium safety?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: EM kit revisited (was: RE: Amp Head, Heads Up)
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: More SIADIS questions... resolved!
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: More SIADIS questions...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) NEDRA membership, Power of DC race
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Lithium safety?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea. Re: Roger's idea
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I checked into those GEM cars recently. I had no idea how expensive they
were. $8000 plus a pop, and that's for the cheaper ones with no options or
frills.
Anyone know why they are so expensive? Are golf carts that expensive?
Aren't these things merely glorified golf carts?
Beyond that... does anyone have any comments on these things, positive or
negative? Do you think they are good, do you think they are bad, etc?
Thanks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very good point. A quick look at the register shows that there are hazard
issues with small batteries:
Nokia batteries not safe either - Belgian watchdog
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/11/10/nokia_batteries_not_safe_either/
Nokia phone explodes in Finland
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/10/09/nokia_phone_explodes_again/
Another Nokia phone explodes
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/10/09/another_nokia_phone_explodes/
Nokia phone explodes - again
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/10/09/nokia_phone_explodes_again/
Woman burned by exploding cellphone
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/08/22/woman_burned_by_exploding_cellphone/
Kyocera recalls exploding PalmOS phone battery
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/01/23/kyocera_recalls_exploding_palmos_pho
ne/
Although the Nokia battery issues have been traced to fake Nokia batteries,
are the large battery suppliers (Kokam, TS, Valance, etc.) doing the type
of scientific testing that is required for placing these batteries in EVs?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Tromley
Sent: June 9, 2005 10:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Lithium safety?
As I said in another post, lithium development seems to be progressing
nicely. No one is happier about this than me. However, questions have been
raised about the safety of lithium batteries, and so far I have seen *no*
definitive answers.
First let me make clear what I am not concerned about. Lots has been said
about how lithium batteries can get hot, how one in a parallel pack might
short, etc. I believe any BMS that is truly ready for prime time will
either eliminate this risk or make it vanishingly small. We're not there
yet, but I'm confident we'll get there. (Thank you John Lussmyer, Victor
Tikhonov, Jukka Jaarvinen, and all the others who have worked on this.)
What concerns me is that when a lithium battery burns (for whatever reason),
there exists the possibility of some very nasty consequences. I have read
that hydrofluoric gas can be released. I have read that if a lithium
battery is involved in a fire, the correct safety procedure is to "run like
hell".
We need better information than that.
What, exactly, is the nature of the hazard? Under what real-life
circumstances is it a genuine concern? At what "scale" of incident? No
problem in an RC airplane? Major catastrophe in a 300 mile range EV? What
about a trainload of lithium cars if the train derails? How do different
types of lithium batteries differ? Valence says their Saphion battery is
"safe" but what does that mean, and what are they comparing it to?
What happens when I have a minor accident on my lithium EM and it ends up
barbequing in a pool of someone else's gasoline? What happens to the
firefighters responding to a "typical" car fire or a garage fire when one of
the cars involved has a large lithium pack? What special training do the
firefighters at an SCCA race require if the ProEV Electric Imp is competing?
I can't escape the feeling that everyone is so jazzed about lithium
batteries that we are ignoring any possible downside. This is exactly what
happened with nuclear power. The actual possibility of a meltdown is
inconsequential if you've done your homework and take the necessary steps.
But no one could solve the spent fuel disposal problem, so they just ignored
it and figured "we'll get back to that later". Now every reactor has a
growing stockpile of its own waste and the industry is essentially in
maintenance mode. (And hopefully will remain so, until they properly solve
that nagging little problem.)
The risk of a lithium "meltdown" can also be inconsequential with a good
BMS. But it looks like someday, after we've all enthusiastically endorsed
the technology, we might find people are getting seriously messed up by it.
If so, we'll have some very embarrassing questions to answer. Those with
investments to lose will continue to defend the technology, no matter what.
Kinda puts us EVers in the same group as tobacco lobbyists and oil
executives.
*Definitely* keep developing lithium batteries. But *do*not* ignore the
problems it poses. If problems exist fix them sooner, not later. The first
step is a clear and open discussion of what the problems are. I'm not
qualified to do so. Is there anyone here who is? What really happens when
a lithium battery burns?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
btw, thanks to those who responded to my ac
motor/regen question... I really appreciate your help!
Is it just me or is anyone else getting digest mode
with 20 or so posts listed in it but only 1 or 2
messages quoted?
This is very frustrating as I want to read most of
those posts!
Tom
--- Electric Vehicle Discussion List
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> EV Digest 4425
>
> Topics covered in this issue include:
>
> 1) NEDRA Power of DC Drag Racing Update
> by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 2) Solar PV Article
> by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 3) Re: Click Clack (was: Pros and Cons of
> clutch-less?)
> by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 4) Re: Zapi Controler 120v with Regen
> by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 5) Fwd: [BMBB] Toshiba Li-ion breakthrough
> threatens Micro Fuel Cells
> by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 6) Re: Deka Intimidators
> by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 7) Re: CE news
> by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 8) RE: EM kit revisited (was: RE: Amp Head, Heads
> Up)
> by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 9) Lithium safety?
> by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 10) Re: Click Clack (was: Pros and Cons of
> clutch-less?)
> by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 11) Re: Power of DC
> by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 12) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
> by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 13) Re: (ET) Power of DC - was (no subject)
> by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 14) RE: EM kit revisited (was: RE: Amp Head, Heads
> Up)
> by reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 15) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
> by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 16) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
> by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 17) Re: More SIADIS questions...
> by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 18) Re: Click Clack (was: Pros and Cons of
> clutch-less?)
> by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:20:53 -0400
> Subject: NEDRA Power of DC Drag Racing Update
> CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [email protected]
> From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Saturday is fast approaching and plans are moving
> along great for the
> 5th Annual NEDRA Power of DC Race at the Mason Dixon
> Dragway in
> Hagerstown Maryland. This event has really come into
> it own thanks to
> many of those on the EV Discussion List who will be
> coming out and who
> have helped. I can't wait to meet everyone.
>
> Gates open at 11:00 and racing starts at 12:00 noon
>
> LATEST NEWS
>
> The director for the Metropolitan Baltimore Clean
> Cities Coalition and
> the Maryland Energy Administration will be out to
> see the race which is
> cool. This is the first year a govt agency has
> helped sponsor and
> support the event.
>
> The Discovery Channel will be setting up early on
> Saturday and will
> spend the entire day with us.
>
> The rock band Wolfspider will be playing a mixture
> of rock and hard
> rock songs with an "electric" theme. A Ted Nugent
> song is one they will
> be doing.
>
> Ralph Goodwin will be bringing the EV Challenge
> Classroom trailer and
> EV Challenge Triumph Spitfire.
>
> Tim Humphries is hard at work on the last minute
> details for the Jr
> Dragster EV Build.
>
> Darin Gilbert will be running our first ever EV
> parts swap meet which
> is a great idea for an event like this. Bring your
> old EV parts. Darin,
> of course will also be making more record breaking
> runs with Pirahna.
>
> Mark Hanson will be helping out with the EVA/DC
> Solar Slot Car Track
> will be set up for the kids.
>
> Dave Stensland from Megawatt Motorworks will be
> bringing down some of
> his products including the wild Fiamp T-shirts.
>
>
> POWER OF DC ENTRIES all at
> http://www.powerofdc.com/competitors.html
>
> The Brigham Young University Team is on the road
> with their Ultra-cap
> EV-1. The BYU EV-1 is a NEDRA record holder.
>
> EVA/DC Member, Brian Murtha will also be coming long
> distance but will
> be driving his RAV-4 EV to the race. He will leave
> from Southern
> Maryland and drive 80 miles to Western Maryland,
> race and the drive
> home. Not only that, Brian's home is solar powered.
>
> Chris Zak will also be making a long distance trek
> on EV power from the
> Baltimore suburbs to race his car
>
> Shawn Lawless' newly rebuilt Orange Juice dragster
> will debut this
> Saturday. Some of the active members on this list
> including Dennis
> Berube, Rich Rudman and Otmar have had a hand in the
> development of the
> car. So it will be exciting to see how it does.
>
> Shawn's wife Lori will be driving their newly
> converted 120-volt NASH
> "Electropolitan".
>
> And giving Darin a bit of competition will be
> Shawn's really cool blue
> electric motorcycle with sidecar.
>
> And of course, Darin will bring his awesome 48-volt
> dual Etek
> Motorcycle ready to break more records
>
> Roy Nutter from WVU will be bringing the electric
> Formula Lightning, a
> very cool EV.
>
> Shawn Wagonner of Suncoast EV Outfitter will be
> there with his new
> 48-volt Pocket bike. It's a beaut.!
>
> This is the year of the bikes. Phil Foss will be
> bringing his awesome
> tilting three wheel motorcycle.
>
> And Doc Kennedy will be bringing his EV Warrior.
>
> Lowell Simmons from Miramar high school in Florida
> will be bringing
> their dual motor Porsche
>
> Robert Salem and Dave Erb are coming down with
> Robert's cool VW Truck.
> This truck is an awe inspiring EV and went up again
> a gas Ford Ranger
> three years ago. That was a cool race.
>
> Kevin Zak can't bring his NetGain dragster but he
> will be at the race
> for a visit. I have this crazy idea that he is
> actually making up the
> story about the dragster being broken and plans to
> bring it to surprise
> me. That is my fantasy at the moment.
>
> Charlie Garlow will be racing his Chevy S-10.
> Charlie lets anyone who
> wants an opportunity to race take the wheel.
>
> Hagerstown local, Valerie Myer will be racing her
> Corbin Sparrow.
>
> The Power of DC is well known for its high school
> NEDRA records. And
> coming out again this year is the Central Shenadoah
> Valley Regional
> Governor's School with their 240-Z.
>
> Bob Rice is bringing his Lead Sled VW Rabbit so
> we'll have two VWs
> racing.
>
> Ollie Perry will be bringing his electric Ford
> Escort from
> Pennsylvannia and I'll have my Ford Escort if I get
> it finished in time.
>
> A Destiny 2000 will be there on display.
>
> There are a few other folks who emailed who may be
> coming out with
> vehicles.
>
>
> NEDRA MEMBERSHIP
>
> Those NEDRA members coming to the race will receive
> some freebies as
> are all new NEDRA members who sign up.
>
>
> RAFFLE AND DOOR PRIZES
>
> We'll be raffling off a new Go Motorboard Scooter.
> Door prizes for
> everyone and the kids.
>
>
> EVENT T-SHIRTS AND NEDRA HATS FOR SALE
>
>
> AWARDS
>
> 1st, 2nd 3rd for 157 volts and higher
> 1st, 2nd 3rd for 156 volts and higher
> 1st, 2nd 3rd for Motorcycles
>
> Fastest Reaction Time
> Fastest 60 Foot Time (Car)
> Fastest 60 Foot Time (Motorcycle)
> Farthest Distance Driven by EV Power
> Farthest Distance Traveled to Race
>
> PRIZES
>
> QuickCable Tools, cash, and trophies
>
>
> FRIDAY NIGHT DINNER
>
> Meet at the Texas Roadhouse in Hagerstown from about
> 7 pm for the
> pre-race dinner. The Texas Roadhouse is easy to find
> � it is on the
> Dual Highway to the left on Edgewood.� 120 S
> Edgewood Dr. Phone (301)
> 739-2200. There is an ACT/Exxon station on the
> corner and a used car
> dealership on the opposite corner.
>
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > <<< IMHO regen is a waste because there is too
> > little power gained from
> > braking.
> >
> >
>
> > Besides the braking gained, was the expense of
> > regeneration worth $0.00277
> > per 60 mph stop?
>
> I think the point is being missed here. Most of the
> cars that we convert are made with standard
> transmissions. The brakes are sized accordingly. The
> cars with automatic transmissions tend to have larger
> brakes to make up less engine braking, and having to
> stop against a bit of forward pressure from the drive
> train. Our electric conversions have a few things
> going against them. They have NO engine braking, they
> have the brakes from a standard trans car, and they
> tend to be overweight. I believe there should be some
> sort of electric braking, so why not have it give us
> some energy back rather than use more? for me it is a
> safety issue. Here in Los Angeles we are surrounded by
> mountains. some of our streets would burn out a set of
> brakes on the way down without some sort of help.
>
> Gadget
...and *you're* actually spending money to find some regen! My setup uses a PM
motor (Etek) and PM controller (4QD), so regen "costs" me absolutely nothing. I
could adjust the braking current down, or decrease the ramping time, but
learning how to use the throttle also as a brake isn't that hard.
I've been driving EVs long enough to know how to maximize their range without
regen, so it's not much of a range consideration as it is a safety one (in this
case, heavier-than-stock vehicle + 2 aged drum brakes = poor slowing ability).
For the 3 years Ford leased me a Ranger EV, I shifted into neutral and coasted
more than I left it in drive and used the regen - it would equal only "engine
braking" levels when fully released, so its regen did NOT help in emergencies!
Ford had given it very low rolling resistance, and I alwasy overinflated the
tires, so it could literally "roll for miles" in the right situations (much
better than my Kewet); I would have preferred no braking when you release the
accelerator and some hydraulic/regen fusion at the brake pedal like GM did with
the EV1. Again I ask "how many miles have you driven in a car with regen?"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Anyone know why they are so expensive? Are golf carts that
> expensive? Aren't these things merely glorified golf carts?
Depends on what you mean by "glorified" ;^>
Yes, they are golf cart-like in the sense that they are fairly open and
low speed vehicles, however, golf carts are built in (very) high volume
to a very low price point with limited performance. NEVs, such as the
GEM, are built in much lower volume and generally to a higher standard
than golf carts. The NEV chassis, suspension, brakes, etc. are
significantly better than what you find on a golf cart. The NEVs also
use higher voltage packs than golf cars, often of sealed (e.g. gel)
rather than flooded batteries (which adds cost).
> Beyond that... does anyone have any comments on these things,
> positive or negative? Do you think they are good, do you
> think they are bad, etc?
I think the 2005 GEM vehicle is quite well-built and is a good quality
product. Remember, GEM is part of Daimler-Chrysler, and as such has
access to DC's resources such as their proving grounds in Phoenix where
the GEM vehicles get a lot of their testing done. I work for the
company that supplies the chargers used on these vehicles and can tell
you that GEM has made (and continues to make) a considerable investment
in the battery system and its proper charging. The biggest drawback to
this particular vehicle is its open style (no doors). If this is OK for
your needs, or if you are happy with the optional doors, no problem.
The drawback to this vehicle type generally is that they are speed
limited and so can only be operated on certain streets. Again, if this
is OK for your needs, no problem.
If you don't care for the looks of the GEM, or if you prefer something
more enclosed and car-like, then you might consider the Dynasty IT
<http://www.itiselectric.com/>. It looks something like a New Beetle.
Although Dynasty is a smaller company without the deep pockets of DC,
this vehicle also has quite a good chassis and running gear. Similar
sep-ex drivetrain and battery pack, and it also uses a Delta-Q charger.
I haven't driven an IT lately, but I did have one for about a month or
so some time back and commuted to work with it daily over hilly terrain.
It was a pleasure to drive, and had quite reasonable performance (I can
confirm that it handles speeds up to at least 40mph just fine...
something you can verify by getting access to a programmer for the
Curtis sep-ex controller ;^).
The 2005 GEM I drove recently is much more sluggish off the line than
the IT was, which may just be the throttle ramp adjustment (the GEM uses
a GE controller and I don't know what programming options are available
for it). Expect the IT to cost a bit more than a GEM, though I don't
know just how much more. Solid doors and openable windows do add a bit
of cost to the manufacture ;^).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks, This is all I got, can this problem be fixed?
Subject:
NEDRA Power of DC Drag Racing Update
From:
Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:20:53 -0400
To:
[email protected]
CC:
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
----
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I own a short bed utility GEM and I love it. It's perfect for my around
town travels, and every time I park it I get to meet someone who is
interested/interesting. Regarding their 'high' price, it may be somewhat
justified by their excellent design. A well made aluminum space frame is
surrounded by well fitted fiberglass panels. The electronics are well done
also.
I admit that GEM's are anything but hot rods, but I feel their shortcomings
are easy to forgive when all factors are considered.
Purchasing mine had another good effect- It perked my interest in EV's to a
point where I hung up my earlier hobby and am now hot into the construction
of a Honda Civic Hatchback with WarP 9, 15 large Optimas, Zilla Z1K, Rutman
PFC-20 and Batregs.
Working for the grin!
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 12:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: GEM cars
I checked into those GEM cars recently. I had no idea how expensive they
were. $8000 plus a pop, and that's for the cheaper ones with no options or
frills.
Anyone know why they are so expensive? Are golf carts that expensive?
Aren't these things merely glorified golf carts?
Beyond that... does anyone have any comments on these things, positive or
negative? Do you think they are good, do you think they are bad, etc?
Thanks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> [SIADIS] won't work if you don't have what's traditionally known
> as "IBM compatible PC".
Victor, I think part of the problem is that "IBM compatible PC" is not a
specification; it is a vague marketing term. What exactly does it have?
What CPU, what speed, how much memory, what serial port chip, etc. And
then there are the software issues; what version of DOS, and what should
the CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT files contain?
Is there a specification for SIADIS that lists what is actually requires
of the computer and operating system? If not, can you compile one from a
list of what computers it works on and which one it doesn't?
>From what I've read, it sounds like the SIADIS requirements are
something like (feel free to correct it, and add what you know):
- CPU: 386 or 486?
- speed: 25 MHz or more?
- memory: 1 megabyte or more?
- serial: COM1 RS-232 port with 8250, 16450, or 16550 UART?
- hard drive: SIADIS must run from a hard drive?
- video: VGA?
- DOS: version 3.3 to 6.22 operating system?
- CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT should contain what lines?
I think it would be a lot easier for folks to get SIADIS working with
such a list.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Ghandi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
>What really happens when a lithium battery burns?
Buy the lowest cost Thunder Sky battery available and short circuit it
or crush it and see if anything happens... (stay out of the fumes,
and be ready for a possible fireball..)
Hook that 500 amp carbon pile load tester up to it and see what it's
max output is and if it can do it with no damage...
Charge the battery with no care about overcharging and see if there
are any ill effects...
$10,000 - $15,000 for a battery pack is just absurd. How much does it
cost for a BMS that will handle 100 batteries?
------
There was talk on this list a while back about building Lithium
batteries ourselves.
Yes it would be possible. Yes it would be possible to make and sell
them for less then what the going prices for other brands currently
are.
The problem would be when we finally have Kokam or Thunder Skys
attention, they would finally drop their prices to levels where we
could not compete on price(maybe). That might or might not be a
problem depending on the setup costs we have incurred(if any?).
Has anyone looked at those supposed pictures of the assembly line in
Kokams and TS's factories? Can these batteries be made in someones
garage without all that equipment?
Someone once said "there are no secrets in the chemical industry".
With that said, could someone take an existing battery and dissect it
and analyze it and reproduce it based off what was learned from it?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris and All,
One interesting thing is a good aero
fairing will increase range much faster, cheaper than
switching to Li-ions!!! There is no reason an aero MC
can't get 100mile range with lead batts.
Safety is one reason I'm waiting on
Li-ions to mature before I take the plunge into them.
I expect that within 2 yrs the problems.
cost will be solved I hope.
It would be nice to have 200-300mile
range in the Freedom EV, an aerodynamic if wide 3wh
MC!
Of course my views are fairly well know
here and why I didn't post before. But I plan an Aero
Cabin 2wh EV in the future as it's got great potential
for high speed with long range at fairly low cost as
an EV.
Anyone interested in putting one into
production, we on the EVProduction list would be more
than happy to help!
Jerry Dycus
--- Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hmmm.
>
> A performance EM is pretty interesting to me, but
> only Roger and I are
> discussing it. Makes me wonder if anyone out there
> cares (besides maybe
> Mike Reish, see http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
> ), which has a pretty
> big impact on whether an EM kit gets made.
>
> Roger Stockton wrote:
__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, to finally put this long thread to bed:
I've finally got a PC which Siadis likes, that embedded 486 card
I had kicking around. It even runs fine from floppy disk,
though I doubt it would be able to store much logged data -
- hence the advised harddisk install in the manual.
Installation to a compactflash card (same as harddisk)
will be next on my list, followed by getting the proper comms
cable and adaptor from Eddy at HEC.
Then I just need to install the system into my EV,
as it's a bit expensive to leave it lying around on the
garage floor acting as an interesting doorstop ;-)
Woohoo! A working, near bulletproof AC drive, with regen!
( Sorry Victor, I couldn't read your last posting, the Listserver
stripped the whole of digest 4425 out after the first message.... )
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup
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--- Begin Message ---
Just curious as to what types of failures, if any, there are with these
systems.
A customer is considering one for a conversion.
Victor?
Sheer?
Thanks for any and all input! :^D
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
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Roy LeMeur wrote:
Just curious as to what types of failures, if any, there are with these
systems.
A customer is considering one for a conversion.
I haven't heard anything beyond my bent motor shaft, which was an
engineering problem rather than anything wrong with the AC drive itself.
The motor and drive appear well constructed and were designed for EVs.
The AC system has less wear parts like brushes and better protection
circuits for overtemp and overcurrent.
I would expect the system to be more reliable and longer lived than the
DC systems.
One thing to think about.. the DC/DC only operates when the drive is
turned on. If you have a high amp accessory load (like the MR2 PS pump)
it will drain the 12v battery.. you'll need an auxillary DC/DC running
all the time.
Performance wise plan on the vehicle performing like it has a small to
midsize 4 cylinder engine (the drive dyno'd at around 110HP). Light
cars are fun, light trucks a little less so.
You'll probably spend more on the adapter which will be more complicated
than a DC motor adapter.
Mark
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Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
[SIADIS] won't work if you don't have what's traditionally known
as "IBM compatible PC".
Seems like Richard have solved his issue, but for the benefit of
others we can continue the thread for a while - there are at least
25 users out there I know of; many more who have these inverters
from other sourses, including overseas users.
Victor, I think part of the problem is that "IBM compatible PC" is not a
specification; it is a vague marketing term. What exactly does it have?
What CPU, what speed, how much memory, what serial port chip, etc. And
then there are the software issues; what version of DOS, and what should
the CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT files contain?
I can give example what mine contains and works with, but:
- this doesn't guarantee other computer with different memory
arrangement to work,
- does not prevent it from working fine with different settings
in these files.
Is there a specification for SIADIS that lists what is actually requires
of the computer and operating system? If not, can you compile one from a
list of what computers it works on and which one it doesn't?
Such a specs may exist, but they cannot be all inclusive.
If it says 486 CPU needed, is it Intel 486, AMD 486, Cyrix 486
or smaller ones?
I'd compile such a list if I'd have all these computers to try
them. If I specify "use only Compaq Contura 325 or Tochiba
Travel mate (because this is what I happen to have and tested with)
it would be too restrictrive requirement.
From what I've read, it sounds like the SIADIS requirements are
something like (feel free to correct it, and add what you know):
Will try
- CPU: 386 or 486?
won't matter
- speed: 25 MHz or more?
won't matter
- memory: 1 megabyte or more?
up to 32 tested. If one has more he can always
create dummy RAM disk wasting extra memory. Utility to
create it is included.
- serial: COM1 RS-232 port with 8250, 16450, or 16550 UART?
This is critical - 16450 UART works (mentioned in the manual)
butas long as the buffer size is not too big. Problem for users
is to figure out without opening the case what chip their computer
possess, not to mention how much FIFO RAM it has. The same 16450
chip use to come with 4 bytes in each buffer, than
- hard drive: SIADIS must run from a hard drive?
I was unable to run it off floppy, but Richard reports he has managed...
- video: VGA?
Yes
- DOS: version 3.3 to 6.22 operating system?
3.3 and 5.0 tested, others most likely will do too.
- CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT should contain what lines?
Comes with it.
I think it would be a lot easier for folks to get SIADIS working with
such a list.
Perhaps.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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All,
Although I don't shift to neutral at a light as Jeff mentions below, I do
religiously shift to neutral when passengers are entering/exiting the
vehicle, or when a lot of pedestrians are around, like at my daughter's
school. Also when parking, so it is in neutral when I fire up the
controller for another trip. As I've said before, I don't need the clutch
for shifting the truck because I use the poor-man's regenerative alternator
on the tail shaft to slow the motor down, but I kept the clutch as a
last-ditch way to stop a runaway controller!
I recently pulled the motor/transmission out of the RX-7 to replace a badly
worn clutch (my son and I have had way too much fun with the car!). Someone
else had done this conversion originally, so I didn't know what type of
motor adapter/coupler I would find. Not only is the adappter a bit of a
cludge, but the coupler is not a taper-lock. And after measuring the
flywheel with a dial indicator, I found it to have a run-out of 0.008". I
spun the motor up with a 12V battery and it indeed has a bad vibration from
the run-out. After removing the flywheel (with a 2 1/8" socket!), it's the
coupler that is bad. We've been looking around for another RX-7 glider to
convert, as ours has a lot of body rust/bondo, but since we now need a new
coupler, we might start looking for a different make/model. Anyway, just to
get the car back on the road for my daughter (she just got her driver's
license), I was tempted to mount the clutch disc to the flywheel, but I
went ahead and bought a cheap clutch pack to retain that last-ditch
emergency stopping ability. Sure, if you have your wits about you just turn
off the key and the contactors will drop out, or in our case pull the
emergency cable which switches off the breaker on the control board, but in
a panic stop when there is something directly in front of you, I tend to
push both the brake and clutch pedal down at the same time!
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:34:01 -0700
>From: Jeff Shanab
>
<snip>
> Should we EV'rs get in that habit? Clutched or clutchless, at a stop,
>pull it out of gear!. With no rolling or idle RPM, wouldn't it be simple
>to put back in gear before taking foot from "brake" to "go".?
<snip>
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Mark Farver wrote:
> Performance wise plan on the vehicle performing like it has a small to
> midsize 4 cylinder engine (the drive dyno'd at around 110HP).
Which motors are these? Are there any available that are of an
extreme high performance nature?
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Lee Hart wrote:
...
I agree. It is a foolish design that has no contactors or other devices
or circuits that are guaranteed to fail safe. I've had inexperienced
designers tell me "We don't need no contactors, because transistors are
more reliable" or "This is an AC controller; it can't fail on." Wrong!
Sooner or later something will go wrong!
...including furnace you design (no pun intended).
Point is, if you unreasonably paranoid about "what if", there is
no progress possible. That is not to say one has to be foolishly
ignorant designing things, but if reasonable and comfortable
(define it for yourself) safety level is achieved, accept
the remaining miniscual risk, just like driving every day
or flying.
You better put one extra safety contactor - it is acceptable
for most. Granted, 2 (3,4,...) contactors in series are
safer, but inconveniences outweigh benefits. Likewise,
no contactors at all is perfectly acceptable by some
with different natural acceptance of persomal risk level,
tolerance of consequences and responsibility to others around.
It is whole science and there is no easy answer to a
meaning of "fail safe".
Safe for whom?
At what expense?
At what criteria (moral damage included)?
Try to answer definitely - it is not possible.
So everyone takes *their* pick (within regulatory enforcements).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Folks,
With NEDRA's first race of the season (after the weather-caused
cancellation of Wicked Watts earlier in the year) coming up this
weekend, I wanted to send out a NEDRA membership update to all those
folks who are NEDRA members or are considering becoming NEDRA members.
As a reminder, starting last year, NEDRA's membership policy changed
slightly. Annual (yearly) memberships now are good for the current
calendar year (which corresponds to the racing season). Therefore, all
annual/yearly memberships purchased at any point during the year are
good through December 31st of that year.
Because this change went into effect late last year, and because the
change may not have been publicized as well as it could have been, all
annual/yearly memberships purchased anytime in 2004 will also be valid
for all of 2005.
Note that charter and lifetime memberships have not changed.
Membership cards have been printed for all members of record as of
yesterday (June 7). This includes all charter members, lifetime
members, and annual members that purchased their membership anytime in
2004 or 2005. The membership cards have been sent to Chip Gribben, the
organizer of the Power of DC race, and they will be handed out to the
appropriate people at the race. For those members not present at the
Power of DC race, the remaining cards will be mailed within the next few
weeks.
In addition to membership cards, all members will receive a
complimentary "Member of NEDRA" clear static-cling window decal and a
"NEDRA" bumper sticker. The window decals say "Member" on them (and
hence are exclusively for members). The bumper stickers do not say
"Member" on them, but each NEDRA member will get one complimentary.
Additional bumper stickers for members or non-members can be purchased
at the race for $5.
Remember you can become a NEDRA member online at www.nedra.com if you
use PayPal. If you register between now and the Power of DC race, you
will have full membership rights and can pick up your free decal and
sticker (though the membership card will be mailed to you).
If you have any membership questions, please email me directly at this
address or through the website.
Dean Grannes
NEDRA Membership Director, Secretary, and Treasurer
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no need to pay costy test with TS cells, just find a 18650 li-ion or R/C
lipoly cell and overcharge it at 7V and more or press it (18650) but be
prepared to be scared from results
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium safety?
> Chris Tromley wrote:
>
> >What really happens when a lithium battery burns?
>
> Buy the lowest cost Thunder Sky battery available and short circuit it
> or crush it and see if anything happens... (stay out of the fumes,
> and be ready for a possible fireball..)
>
> Hook that 500 amp carbon pile load tester up to it and see what it's
> max output is and if it can do it with no damage...
>
> Charge the battery with no care about overcharging and see if there
> are any ill effects...
>
> $10,000 - $15,000 for a battery pack is just absurd. How much does it
> cost for a BMS that will handle 100 batteries?
>
>
> ------
>
> There was talk on this list a while back about building Lithium
> batteries ourselves.
>
> Yes it would be possible. Yes it would be possible to make and sell
> them for less then what the going prices for other brands currently
> are.
>
> The problem would be when we finally have Kokam or Thunder Skys
> attention, they would finally drop their prices to levels where we
> could not compete on price(maybe). That might or might not be a
> problem depending on the setup costs we have incurred(if any?).
>
> Has anyone looked at those supposed pictures of the assembly line in
> Kokams and TS's factories? Can these batteries be made in someones
> garage without all that equipment?
>
> Someone once said "there are no secrets in the chemical industry".
> With that said, could someone take an existing battery and dissect it
> and analyze it and reproduce it based off what was learned from it?
>
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Are you sure the coupler is bad? Did you check the motor does not
vibrate without the flywheel? Can you reattach the flywheel 180
degrees turned (and others) and check runout again? You might be able
to put the motor with the coupler on a lathe and true it up (credit
to Steve Clunn for that idea).
--- "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> I recently pulled the motor/transmission out of the RX-7 to replace
> a badly
> worn clutch (my son and I have had way too much fun with the car!).
> Someone
> else had done this conversion originally, so I didn't know what
> type of
> motor adapter/coupler I would find. Not only is the adappter a bit
> of a
> cludge, but the coupler is not a taper-lock. And after measuring
> the
> flywheel with a dial indicator, I found it to have a run-out of
> 0.008". I
> spun the motor up with a 12V battery and it indeed has a bad
> vibration from
> the run-out. After removing the flywheel (with a 2 1/8" socket!),
> it's the
> coupler that is bad. We've been looking around for another RX-7
> glider to
> convert, as ours has a lot of body rust/bondo, but since we now
> need a new
> coupler, we might start looking for a different make/model.
> ...
__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out!
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Another (simpler) hybrid possibility is any small RWD pickup/SUV.
Simply modify the driveshaft to include a double-shafted 8" motor
in-line (or if necessary, use a fixed reduction between the motor and
driveshaft to allow higher motor RPM). If a pickup, throw a stack of
small AGMs (e.g. Hawker G26) in the bed along the cab to give 156V or
better. For pure EV mode, throw the tranny in neutral and run the
electric motor; for ICE mode, just drive normally and let the motor spin
(its drag is negligible, and if you use a sep-ex motor and regen
controller you could even recharge your batteries while driving or
braking). For quick stoplight getaways, use both.
Cheers,
Roger.
Roger,
Your idea got me thinking a "what if".
Put a motor in-line with the drive shaft. In-line means driveshaft to one
end of motor armature - output of armature to driveshaft and to the
differential. The motor turns when the driveshaft turns. A free wheel would
allow the motor to power the rear end with the engine stopped (no reverse
and I have not thought this one through). Would a 3.5:1 single gear rear
ratio allow the motor to start the EV?
What is a lightweight RWD auto for either a hybrid or an EV conversion?
PS Monster Garage designed a sand buggy with a 5th wheel that lowered as a
sand driver wheel.
BoyntonStu
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