EV Digest 4427
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Lithium safety?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Lithium safety?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EV list digest mode incomplete digest?
by "Will" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV Digest 4425... not coming through
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: GEM cars
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Power of DC Video needed
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea - different brakes on automatics??
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Please Critique Wiring Diagram
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Makeing Litium Ion batteries, was Re: Lithium safety?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: GEM cars
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Click Clack (was: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Click Clack (was: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE: Ranger EV Battery Pack Core Fee
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: EV Digest 4425... not coming through
by "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Click Clack - how much quiescent controller current?
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Please Critique Wiring Diagram
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Makeing Litium Ion batteries, was Re: Lithium safety?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Totally apples to oranges comparison.
Victor
Philippe Borges wrote:
no need to pay costy test with TS cells, just find a 18650 li-ion or R/C
lipoly cell and overcharge it at 7V and more or press it (18650) but be
prepared to be scared from results
cordialement,
Philippe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have not heard of any failures, neither inverters nor motors.
One inverter had communication with PC issue, while not impacting
driving vehicle (been fixed).
Oldest inverters I know of are installed in 1992, still work today.
Anyone?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:32:20 -0400, "Chris Tromley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>What concerns me is that when a lithium battery burns (for whatever reason),
>there exists the possibility of some very nasty consequences.
yes, if one is nearby, one can get burned. Nasty burns.
>I have read
>that hydrofluoric gas can be released.
Possibly, though the reactions don't favor that. More likely are
smaller molecule fluorinated hydrocarbons. When halogenated
hydrocarbons burn (freon, for instance), the foul smelling, choking
product is widely reported as HF or phosgene or ..... The
overwhelming percentage of the products are chloramines and
fluoramins. Nasty substances in their own right when concentrated but
not "war gas".
The release of these substances occurs when ANY halocarbon burns.
Teflon, freon, tefzel, etc. The stuff in an Li battery will be
neither worse nor better than other substances in this class.
>I have read that if a lithium
>battery is involved in a fire, the correct safety procedure is to "run like
>hell".
Only if you're about to be burned.
>
>We need better information than that.
>
>What, exactly, is the nature of the hazard? Under what real-life
>circumstances is it a genuine concern? At what "scale" of incident? No
>problem in an RC airplane? Major catastrophe in a 300 mile range EV? What
>about a trainload of lithium cars if the train derails? How do different
>types of lithium batteries differ? Valence says their Saphion battery is
>"safe" but what does that mean, and what are they comparing it to?
I know that it's an unpopular thing to do in certain circles but if
the manufacturer, the guys who know the product better than anyone and
who have to defend their claims, say that the product is safe then I
believe them until credible evidence to the contrary comes to light.
>
>What happens when I have a minor accident on my lithium EM and it ends up
>barbequing in a pool of someone else's gasoline?
Well, you lose your car for one thing. You could be burned if you're
trapped. Or suffocated by the toxic fumes from the burning plastics
in the car that are both much more abundant and IMHO, emit more toxic
chemicals than burning halocarbons. Many of these plastics produce
cyanide compounds when the fire is hot enough and that IS a genuinely
hazardous substance.
>What happens to the
>firefighters responding to a "typical" car fire or a garage fire when one of
>the cars involved has a large lithium pack?
Mourn, if they liked the car :-) Try not to get shocked if they end
up poking around in the vehicle. That's about it.
>What special training do the
>firefighters at an SCCA race require if the ProEV Electric Imp is competing?
No idea. But given SCCA's character, one can imagine that any rules
will have little touch with reality.
>
>I can't escape the feeling that everyone is so jazzed about lithium
>batteries that we are ignoring any possible downside. This is exactly what
>happened with nuclear power.
Well no, not actually. Nuclear was nuked by a combination of
ignorance, a well-funded campaign against it by other energy producers
(TVA won a suit regarding this some time ago) and public relations
ineptness on the part of operators.
>The actual possibility of a meltdown is
>inconsequential if you've done your homework and take the necessary steps.
>But no one could solve the spent fuel disposal problem, so they just ignored
>it and figured "we'll get back to that later". Now every reactor has a
>growing stockpile of its own waste and the industry is essentially in
>maintenance mode. (And hopefully will remain so, until they properly solve
>that nagging little problem.)
Actually the "problem" is currently "solved" (the spent fuel is being
safely and fairly economically stored at each site.) There is nothing
magic about hauling the stuff across country and burying it. It's a
waste of resources since only about 3% of the fissionable uranium is
burned in a power reactor but certainly not a hazard.
I think the analogy is good, though, in a way you might not
appreciate. Nuke power was slaughtered by rumor, innuendo, outright
lies and hysteria. Our attitude for too long was that since this
stuff was so good, how could we take the critics seriously?
Which is a mistake we have to not make. Once there is money to be
made in opposition, the critics will crawl out of the mud and spew
forth all manner of lies and distortions. We have to take them
seriously and expose the lies early on.
>
>The risk of a lithium "meltdown" can also be inconsequential with a good
>BMS. But it looks like someday, after we've all enthusiastically endorsed
>the technology, we might find people are getting seriously messed up by it.
>If so, we'll have some very embarrassing questions to answer. Those with
>investments to lose will continue to defend the technology, no matter what.
>Kinda puts us EVers in the same group as tobacco lobbyists and oil
>executives.
Boy, that's a broad smear based on nothing at all. I personally doubt
that a full scale Li battery meltdown is even possible (just like the
incredibility of a full core melt accident in a nuke) but even if it
is, so what? We all drive around with many times the potential energy
in our gas tanks and THAT energy can be released very rapidly
(explosion or rapid combustion.) No one other than firemen give that
much thought at all. In my lifetime, the BEST I can hope for in Li
batteries is the energy equivalent of a few gallons of gasoline.
The problem here, as with the perceived hazards associated with
nuclear power, is that people with little or no scientific knowledge
and experience is that they have no sense of proportionality.
According to the government, the risk of being killed in an ordinary
car wreck on any given day is something like 1 in 700 yet very few
people give that more than a passing thought. Contrast that to the
absolutely out of control emotional train wreck that some people
become when the mere mention of nuclear power is made. Even if the
risks were as bad as the critics claim, the probability of being
harmed by a nuke is vanishingly low.
Or if you don't want to talk about nukes, consider mad cow disease.
There is yet to be a proven trail from the cow form to the human form
of the disease and there have only been a few cow cases and yet entire
continents have gone ape-sh*t. Meanwhile such real risks as the
common flu get scant attention. Consider how many people the flu
kills each year and then consider how little is done to prevent it.
Flu shots are about it. No proportionality at all.
>
>*Definitely* keep developing lithium batteries. But *do*not* ignore the
>problems it poses. If problems exist fix them sooner, not later. The first
>step is a clear and open discussion of what the problems are.
This sounds like a version of "consensus science" (sic) where the
correct science is whatever the consensus is at the moment and the
many sides to the discussion have equal value. There was once a
consensus that the earth was flat but that didn't make it so!
What "we" need to do is to prepare educational materials, dumbed down
to the reading level of the general public and the media, on these
batteries and distribute it widely, including to the media. This
material should included well written articles suitable for lazy
journalists to cut'n'paste.
>I'm not
>qualified to do so. Is there anyone here who is? What really happens when
>a lithium battery burns?
Why don't you experiment and find out? I've folded, spindled and
mutilated every type of Li battery I could get my hands on and I've
seen nothing exciting at all happen other than a burst case or two.
Why don't you buy a single TS cell from Victor and destructively test
it? Maybe he'll donate a bad one or something.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I've gotten a couple of those truncated digests in the last couple
days. Bad case of indigestion, I guess.
-- Will Bain
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Watson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 1:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EV list digest mode incomplete digest?
Hi all
btw, thanks to those who responded to my ac
motor/regen question... I really appreciate your help!
Is it just me or is anyone else getting digest mode
with 20 or so posts listed in it but only 1 or 2
messages quoted?
This is very frustrating as I want to read most of
those posts!
Tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver wrote:
One thing to think about.. the DC/DC only operates when the drive is
turned on. If you have a high amp accessory load (like the MR2 PS pump)
it will drain the 12v battery.. you'll need an auxillary DC/DC running
all the time.
Why would you want keep turning a steering wheel in a turned off vehicle??
FWIW, my inverters consumes 900mA itle, so if I need 12V
accessory running all the time, I keep the drive on.
If you want to run some 12V accessory on the parking lot
while you're away, having whole thing on is not a good idea.
Performance wise plan on the vehicle performing like it has a small to
midsize 4 cylinder engine (the drive dyno'd at around 110HP). Light
cars are fun, light trucks a little less so.
Depends on the power you pick. THe system is the same used in Rangers EV
(power wise).
You'll probably spend more on the adapter which will be more complicated
than a DC motor adapter.
Sorry Mark, totally false. In fact you can use ADC plate with
centering ring railored for AC motor.
I have made both plates - for former 8" ADC and present Siemens
4133 motor. Other than bolt holes location and of course centering
ring diameter - absolutely no difference. I even consideren modifying
ADC one, but decided it's not worth it.
Where exactly did you find any difference making fabricating
even slightly more difficult?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Mark Farver wrote:
Performance wise plan on the vehicle performing like it has a small to
midsize 4 cylinder engine (the drive dyno'd at around 110HP).
Which motors are these? Are there any available that are of an
extreme high performance nature?
I do not think the motor makes much of a difference. Victor specs the
larger motors for the larger vehicles for heat reasons. The system is
limited by the 100kw inverter... I think Victor has a double power
inverter now, but it seems like they left the current the same and
doubled the voltage limit to 600V. Which is getting mighty high.
Mark
!DSPAM:42a8cc21225158555718847!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Mark Farver wrote:
One thing to think about.. the DC/DC only operates when the drive is
turned on. If you have a high amp accessory load (like the MR2 PS
pump) it will drain the 12v battery.. you'll need an auxillary DC/DC
running all the time.
Why would you want keep turning a steering wheel in a turned off vehicle??
FWIW, my inverters consumes 900mA itle, so if I need 12V
accessory running all the time, I keep the drive on.
If you want to run some 12V accessory on the parking lot
while you're away, having whole thing on is not a good idea.
Performance wise plan on the vehicle performing like it has a small to
midsize 4 cylinder engine (the drive dyno'd at around 110HP). Light
cars are fun, light trucks a little less so.
Depends on the power you pick. THe system is the same used in Rangers EV
(power wise).
You'll probably spend more on the adapter which will be more
complicated than a DC motor adapter.
Sorry Mark, totally false. In fact you can use ADC plate with
centering ring railored for AC motor.
I have made both plates - for former 8" ADC and present Siemens
4133 motor. Other than bolt holes location and of course centering
ring diameter - absolutely no difference. I even consideren modifying
ADC one, but decided it's not worth it.
Where exactly did you find any difference making fabricating
even slightly more difficult?
The primary issue is that the motors are splined.. and everything is
metric. (or was until your ADC shaft adapter)
The metric stuff shouldn't be an issue, but most small machine shops
expect all the drawings will be in 1/1000's inch. It means that careful
conversions must be done when designing the plates. Can be error prone..
So it is more difficult and it will be once off work for the machine
shop, rather than an off the shelf ADC adapter. It is certainly
possible to remachine an ADC adapter with a different depth spacer but
be very careful to exactly center the plate in the tool before drilling.
The splines were especially difficult.. in a larger city like Portland I
am sure you can find machine shops with the tooling or the blanks.. here
in Austin I couldn't.
I had to go to Houston and even then they rented the tooling to cut the
spline (Basically the hub ended up being $350, the plate and spacer
another $750). The splines are hardened so you can't just round the
shaft down. (and it probably wouldn't transmit power without slipping
sans keyway or splines) It might be helpful to offer machine services
to your customers.. once you find a machinist setup for this kind of
work it is pretty easy.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Jun 2005 at 13:18, William Brinsmead wrote:
> Hi folks, This is all I got, can this problem be fixed?
Thanks for posting this. It's the second report of digest truncation I've
recieved. I'll see what the listserver support crew can do.
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Mark Farver wrote:
One thing to think about.. the DC/DC only operates when the drive is
turned on. If you have a high amp accessory load (like the MR2 PS
pump) it will drain the 12v battery.. you'll need an auxillary DC/DC
running all the time.
Why would you want keep turning a steering wheel in a turned off vehicle??
You don't.
With the ignition on the 15 amp standby load (50+ amps in use) of the
MR2 power steering pump, plus lights and on a bad day wipers exceeds the
DC/DC max current (30 amps?) draining the battery. Since the DC/DC
turns off with the ignition the DC/DC has no time to "catch up" and
recharge the battery. The 12v battery is always undercharged, and dies
a premature death. An external battery charger or DC/DC is the only
work around.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <
Yes we haven't seen any "reason " why the ac drives are safer than dc. I
think its becuse the ac motor needs to be fed ac which means a working
controller , if some igbts go bad and blow on then the motor wouldn't go
full on like a dc motor , becuse it need ac . > Just my guess,
steve clunn
Just curious as to what types of failures, if any, there are with these
systems.
A customer is considering one for a conversion.
Victor?
Sheer?
Thanks for any and all input! :^D
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
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At 11:30 AM 9/06/05 -0700, Gadget wrote:
> <<< IMHO regen is a waste because there is too
> little power gained from
> braking.
> Besides the braking gained, was the expense of
> regeneration worth $0.00277
> per 60 mph stop?
I think the point is being missed here. Most of the
cars that we convert are made with standard
transmissions. The brakes are sized accordingly.
Gadget brings up a very good point, it is somewhat important to not degrade
the brakes if it can be avoided. So too much regen can also be a problem
(rusted brakes).
One other thing (IIRC), when using lead/acid batteries, some time ago
someone (I forget who) reported to this list the following: The quick
recharge bursts aparently help to work against the puekert effect, so where
the amount of energy going in adds 2 or 3% of range, the use of regen was
adding 10% or more to the range. Or one would assume, to the life of the
batteries, which over the life of a couple of packs of batteries should be
worth more than the regen cost.
James.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 12:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: GEM cars
I checked into those GEM cars recently. I had no idea how expensive they
were. $8000 plus a pop, and that's for the cheaper ones with no options
or
frills.
1000 for the charger
1000 for batteries
1000 for motor
1000 differencal /
1000 controller
1000 frame / brakes / wheel
1000 for body
1000 for the dealer? That's just off the top of my head , I've worked on a
few , and they are more like a car that a golf cart , but nothing like a
conversion .
Beyond that... does anyone have any comments on these things, positive or
negative? Do you think they are good, do you think they are bad, etc?
well they are a step in the right direction, and they would be fun to drive
around town , but compared to a real electric car , they are a golf cart.
steve clunn .
Thanks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone has taken movies of the PDC race from the previous years,
please let me know.
Or if you are coming to the race can you bring them with your
Thanks
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Power of DC
cell 240-697-1678
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the point is being missed here. Most of the
cars that we convert are made with standard
transmissions. The brakes are sized accordingly.
In my experience, the brakes on automatics are not sized differently. For
all of the cars I've own and repaired ( over many years) , no parts store
counter man has ever asked me if the car I was buying brake parts for was an
automatic or a manual - so they must have the same brakes.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee�
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> It is a foolish design that has no contactors or other devices
>> or circuits that are guaranteed to fail safe. I've had inexperienced
>> designers tell me "We don't need no contactors, because transistors
>> are more reliable" or "This is an AC controller; it can't fail on."
>> Wrong! Sooner or later something will go wrong!
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> ...including furnace you design (no pun intended).
Correct. It could happen. I might have missed something, or the customer
might do something even dumber than I imagined. But I did my "due
diligence" by investigating what the possible failures were, and what
the consequences would be if/when they occurred, and then included extra
fuses, interlocks, and whatnot to be sure that the product was still
"safe" even if these failures occurred.
> Point is, if you are unreasonably paranoid about "what if", there
> is no progress possible. That is not to say one has to be foolishly
> ignorant designing things, but if reasonable and comfortable (define
> it for yourself) safety level is achieved, accept the remaining
> miniscual risk, just like driving every day or flying.
I agree. The key is to go into it with one's eyes open. "Does this thing
fail, and if so, what happens when it does?"
Wrong answer: "I don't know. Nobody knows. It isn't supposed to fail,
so we didn't test for it and don't know what might happen.
None have failed that we know about, but then we don't do
repairs and don't get failed units back for analysis."
Right answer: "We had design reviews, with multiple people checking
the design for errors. We calculated the MTBF (Mean Time
Between Failures), and made sure it was high enough so the
failure rate would be negligible for the life of the product.
We did a FMEA (Failure Mode Effect Analysis) in which we
actually created failures of each critical part, and logged
what happened. If any failures causes safety issues, we added
parts or changed the design so these failures were benign
(product doesn't work, but it won't catch fire, explode, or
injure anyone)."
In the first case, the designer doesn't know what he's doing, and didn't
test to find out. He's depending on ignorance and luck.
In the second case, the designer is aware of the safety issues, and took
pains to be sure the product is reasonably safe.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
...
I recently pulled the motor/transmission out of the RX-7 to replace
a badly
worn clutch (my son and I have had way too much fun with the car!).
so the car was working fine , just needed a clutch.
. Not only is the adappter a bit
of a
cludge, but the coupler is not a taper-lock. And after measuring
the
flywheel with a dial indicator, I found it to have a run-out of
0.008".
My posrche is around that , worst one I ever did. at 120 v it worked fine
but when I went to 240 I felt a vibration at the higher rpm , ( after being
at 120v for so long the sound of a 9" singing along at that new rpm l put a
new ev grin on my face. )
I
spun the motor up with a 12V battery and it indeed has a bad
vibration from
the run-out. After removing the flywheel (with a 2 1/8" socket!),
I one time found that using a different key helped , but that was a taper
luck.
it's the
coupler that is bad. We've been looking around for another RX-7
glider to
convert, as ours has a lot of body rust/bondo, but since we now
need a new
coupler, we might start looking for a different make/model.
did you say what voltage your running . ? There's a few different ways you
could go , If it work for a few years and the reason you took it apart was
not because of a vibration , just put it back and go on enjoying it , You
can try the usual tricks to see if you can get it closer the .008 but as it
worked before it should work again.
Steve Clunn
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I'm behind in my list reading by almost 2000 messages. I'm trying to
catch up.
Meanwhile, I've been working on a wiring diagram to send to my brother.
I've posted it on my website, in the EV section --
http://www.judebert.com/wasted_youth/EV/EV.html -- and I'd appreciate
having a peer review. I've tried to incorporate the ideas from our last
wiring diagram examination.
Thanks in advance,
Jude
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I think they can be made in a garage. (until there is an accident and
someone passes a law) The anode and cathode materials can be purchased,
no sputtering required.
I was looking into makeing li-ion batteries. It seemed from the info I
gathered that it was a matter of either 2 very fine screened foils one
copper and one aluminum and active material mixed in a slurry pressed
into them. Or just rolling(collendering) the slurry onto the plates. In
either case, dry them them and transfer to a sealed glovebox filled with
argon. Assemble into the case with seperators made of either glass matt,
a nomex paper for batteries(can't remember the name) or polypropelene
with microscopic pores. Pull a vacumm and let the vacummed container
suck in the electorlyte.
cavets:
NO Oxygen in the eletrolyte, or else.
speculation :
Thin plates with thin slurry on both sides and lots of plates is high
power, low capacity
Screens with pressed in slurry are low power, high capacity
PolyPro seperators are NOT for high power cells
Getting chemicals and supplies in United states is near imposible
because of the single distributer that has very strict policies. They
require very large purchases(then why do you need a distributer) pred
battery materials http://www.predmaterials.com/
I did find companies in britain and other companies that had no problem
suppling small to medium quantities of material. I can make the cases,
but so far costs are still a little high. and the foils are hard to
come by.
I have here next to me a sample of a EXM 1037 Li4Ti5O12
http://www.sud-chemie.com/scmcms/web/content.jsp?nodeId=4857&lang=en
I like what the white paper said about increased cycle life
I found a PDF from college research project that has enough to get started.
I was wondering if a group of us pooled our resources if we could make
this happen. We could make rebuildable cells, with an internal thermosensor.
Oh, Failure modes: electrolyte breaks down and contaminates anode and
low state of charge can reduce protective difference potential.
Lithium-maganase - overheated electorlyte disassociates and soaks
thru anodic layer binding lithium and reducing capacity
Litihium -cobolt - less susceptable but more expensive and
higher capacity
Lithium - titanate ?
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--- Begin Message ---
I just find it a little irritating that when you say:
"Production Electric Vehicle"
People think of a NEV or GEM and not an EV-1, Rav4-EV, or Ranger-EV.
Other than that they seem like nice little town cars,
but I don't need a town car, I need a freeway car!
Even if they are mechanically more car than cart,
functionally they seem to be more cart than car to me.
L8r
Ryan
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I checked into those GEM cars recently. I had no idea how expensive they
were. $8000 plus a pop, and that's for the cheaper ones with no options or
frills.
Anyone know why they are so expensive? Are golf carts that expensive?
Aren't these things merely glorified golf carts?
Beyond that... does anyone have any comments on these things, positive or
negative? Do you think they are good, do you think they are bad, etc?
Thanks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't the controller input capacitors stay charged during the time the
contactor is open? If the potbox switch is set right, the contactor would
open when the pedal is up and the controller is off.
Any capactor leakage would result in a very small current in the precharge
resistor that would keep them charged. ( not enought to cause thermal cycling)
The controller draws power to stay on. Typically, they draw
something near an amp. This results in some drop across the pre-charge
resistor.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:12 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
This, again, begs the question: why not mount capacitors
on the battery side and have contactors disconnect the
controller only?
The wire (and contactor, etc.) in between has inductance. This
would defeat the purpose of the capacitors.
Just for fun, why don't you try this with one of your controllers?
Make sure to have a video camera focused on the controller when you press
the throttle the first time. If you do this at night, with the cover off
the controller, the video will be even more spectacular.
Victor
Mark Hanson wrote:
Howdy,
I've used a contactor that closes each time you touch the accelerator peddle
on my EV's for the last 30 years and havn't seen any contactor problems. I
have a pre-charge resistor which is simply a resistor in series with a led
(about 6k ohms for 20ma 3 watts). It keeps the controller bulk caps
charged. Also I have a main contactor for the ignition key to turn on the
DC converter and supply the main power.
Mark
----- Original Message ----- From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:30 PM
Subject: Click Clack (was: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?)
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 36 Delphi 12Vs that are in similar shape. Physically great, probably
only 30 cycles or so on them, but need some form of reconditioning. Couldnt
charge them in 216V string so tried to charge them in smaller banks of 72
with my Hotrod FR. Was like mowing the 1,000 acre lawn. Could never keep all
the balls in the air. You figure out what to do with them let me know.
Otherwise I will just sell them as cores next time I take a load into town.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE: Ranger EV Battery Pack Core Fee
> I emailed Battery MD weeks ago about reviving old Delphi 8v modules and
they
> don't want the business. A shame. I have numerous that could use
revival.
> Anybody have ideas about reviving these batteries. I have a few that have
> low voltage but the cases aren't swelling. Lawrence Rhodes.........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 4:56 PM
> Subject: IMPORTANT NOTICE: Ranger EV Battery Pack Core Fee
>
>
> > This is a courtesy notice to warn people potentially bidding on
> > Ranger EVs that come without battery packs:
> >
> > Along with the price of a new "remanufactured" Ranger EV battery
> > pack, there is an additional core fee of $1,000 that will be charged in
> > the
> > event that the original battery pack core is not returned at the time
> > that a
> > new one is purchased. This is similar to what is presently done when
> > normal
> > 12V batteries are sold and cores are not returned.
> >
> > Ford and Battery M.D. have established a system to keep Ranger EV
> > parts available to owners for a very long time (numerous years).
> > This system; however, is dependent on the core packs being returned
> > to Battery M.D. so that new packs can be built using the old tubs.
> > Without tubs and the corresponding electronics inside these packs,
> > the ability to supply parts long term will be severely jeopardized.
> > If everyone works together, a long term supply of parts can be
> > assured. This is such an important issue that Ford is willing to pay
for
> > the
> > transportation of the core back to Battery M.D. for this expressed
> > purpose.
> >
> > FYI, this core fee is in the process of being raised to $3,000 to
> > better represent the value of the BCM, wiring, thermal management
> > system and control system that is in the pack and to discourage abuse
of
> > the
> > system.
> >
> > We do not want the buyers of these vehicles to be penalized so we
> > hope this public notice will provide ample warning to the potential
> > bidders and allow you to factor this into your buying decision.
> > Please spread the word to your friends so this is not a surprise.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Battery M.D.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am getting truncated Digest also. I tried to write a operator but didn't
hear back.
-----Original Message-----
From: William Brinsmead [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 3:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: EV Digest 4425... not coming through
Hi folks, This is all I got, can this problem be fixed?
Subject:
NEDRA Power of DC Drag Racing Update
From:
Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:20:53 -0400
To:
[email protected]
CC:
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
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----
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Don't the controller input capacitors stay charged during the time the
contactor is open? If the potbox switch is set right, the contactor would
open when the pedal is up and the controller is off.
Any capactor leakage would result in a very small current in the precharge
resistor that would keep them charged. ( not enought to cause thermal
cycling)
The controller draws power to stay on. Typically, they draw
something near an amp. This results in some drop across the pre-charge
resistor.
Bill - are you sure the quiescent current draw is this high? This doesn't
sound right to me.
For my controller (the 1221C), as well as for the 1231C, the Curtis manual
specifies a 750 ohm , 20 watt precharge resistor. Curtis recommends that
the precharge resistor always be across the contactor (so the controller is
always "on"). If the non-driving controller current draw were even as high
as 1/2 amp:
1. The resistor would burn up quickly because it would be dissipating 180
watts ( 9 times its rating).
2. The input caps would never precharge, since there would have to be more
than 375 volts of drop across the precharge resistor to acheive even the
quiescent controller current( and the battery voltage is usually less then
that) .
So, it seems to me that the non-driving controller current draw ( at least
for Curtii) has to be much less than 1 amp. (Or, is there a flaw in my
thinking here?)
Bill - which controllers that you measured had a non-driving draw of one
amp? And, what precharge resistor (resistance and power rating) have you
successfully used with this controller - to avoid resistor overheating,
etc ?
And, has anyone else measured the non-driving current draw on any other
controllers?
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jude,
It is prefer to have two safety contactors between the battery pack and the
controller circuit and other components, so only the battery charger and
battery pack is isolated from all other components. I had a DC/DC burn out
when charger voltage was on it.
There should be fuses before each contactor for every accessory components.
No amp and volt indicators circuits are shown, when installing any indications
and shunts, be sure to fuse every instrument tap off from the main battery
pack.
Some controllers will required separated control power from either 12 VDC or
other which is also control by on dash control switches or the ignition switch.
If the the fuel door is the charger AC or DC entry point, it is prefer to have
the relay in the normally close position (power off) while the charging plug is
unplug and the door is close. The relay is energized only when you are
charging. The way you have it shown, the ignition switch would have to be on
all the time while you are charging.
There is no fan circuit, only a switch. Sometime we add the heater thermostat
in this circuit.
In the heater circuit, you could add a thermostat right after the heat switch,
also a hi-limit temperature switch which is a thermo disk that is install in
the heater box that detects over temperature.
In stead of connecting from point to point, meaning connecting directly from
one component to the other, you could connect all the components to a large
terminal strip and cross connect between the components at the terminal strip.
Leave terminal spaces between each component circuit, so you can add or
modified the circuits as need. You can tap off each of these circuit points to
a LED indicator panel which will indicated the circuit paths and will ease on
board trouble shooting. Could add bypass circuits so you can fix a problem
while you are moving with your EV.
Roland Wiench '
Energy Research Systems
----- Original Message -----
From: Jude Anthony<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EVDL<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 7:57 PM
Subject: Please Critique Wiring Diagram
I'm behind in my list reading by almost 2000 messages. I'm trying to
catch up.
Meanwhile, I've been working on a wiring diagram to send to my brother.
I've posted it on my website, in the EV section --
http://www.judebert.com/wasted_youth/EV/EV.html<http://www.judebert.com/wasted_youth/EV/EV.html>
-- and I'd appreciate
having a peer review. I've tried to incorporate the ideas from our last
wiring diagram examination.
Thanks in advance,
Jude
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
it's going to be very interesting thanks for this idea.
i'm in France and very interesting about testing a small scale lipoly cell
fabrication.
I would like to learn little more about process, do you have an how to link
or document to make first steps without too much holes on my road ?
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 7:14 AM
Subject: Makeing Litium Ion batteries, was Re: Lithium safety?
> I think they can be made in a garage. (until there is an accident and
> someone passes a law) The anode and cathode materials can be purchased,
> no sputtering required.
>
> I was looking into makeing li-ion batteries. It seemed from the info I
> gathered that it was a matter of either 2 very fine screened foils one
> copper and one aluminum and active material mixed in a slurry pressed
> into them. Or just rolling(collendering) the slurry onto the plates. In
> either case, dry them them and transfer to a sealed glovebox filled with
> argon. Assemble into the case with seperators made of either glass matt,
> a nomex paper for batteries(can't remember the name) or polypropelene
> with microscopic pores. Pull a vacumm and let the vacummed container
> suck in the electorlyte.
>
> cavets:
> NO Oxygen in the eletrolyte, or else.
>
> speculation :
>
> Thin plates with thin slurry on both sides and lots of plates is high
> power, low capacity
> Screens with pressed in slurry are low power, high capacity
> PolyPro seperators are NOT for high power cells
>
>
> Getting chemicals and supplies in United states is near imposible
> because of the single distributer that has very strict policies. They
> require very large purchases(then why do you need a distributer) pred
> battery materials http://www.predmaterials.com/
>
> I did find companies in britain and other companies that had no problem
> suppling small to medium quantities of material. I can make the cases,
> but so far costs are still a little high. and the foils are hard to
> come by.
>
> I have here next to me a sample of a EXM 1037 Li4Ti5O12
> http://www.sud-chemie.com/scmcms/web/content.jsp?nodeId=4857&lang=en
>
> I like what the white paper said about increased cycle life
>
> I found a PDF from college research project that has enough to get
started.
>
> I was wondering if a group of us pooled our resources if we could make
> this happen. We could make rebuildable cells, with an internal
thermosensor.
>
>
> Oh, Failure modes: electrolyte breaks down and contaminates anode and
> low state of charge can reduce protective difference potential.
> Lithium-maganase - overheated electorlyte disassociates and soaks
> thru anodic layer binding lithium and reducing capacity
> Litihium -cobolt - less susceptable but more expensive and
> higher capacity
> Lithium - titanate ?
>
--- End Message ---
