EV Digest 4428
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Please Critique Wiring Diagram
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Motor questions
by "hi_torque_electric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) SCCA D-Modified class
by Aaron NMLUG-EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EM kit revisited (was: RE: Amp Head, Heads Up)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Lithium safety?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) FW: Fwd: [sfeva] Fwd: FOR SALE (2) Ford Ranger Electric pickups
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Click Clack (was: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: DC Controller failures. A list?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EM kit revisited (was: RE: Amp Head, Heads Up)
by reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Lithium safety?
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Click Clack
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Paging tim humphrey
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Lithium safety?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Watt hours for EVs
by William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: DC Controller failures. A list?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Watt hours for EVs
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Watt hours for EVs
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Lithium safety?
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV list digest mode incomplete digest?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Zapi Controler 120v with Regen
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Lithium safety? STAY ON TOPIC
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Watt hours for EVs
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I enjoyed your humor about your brother VS. tranny, lol. I saw you were asking
for input to your motors over all appearance. From the pictures they look fine
(not Great) but they look good. The color of the comm., and the armatures
banding tell me it�s working good and is not over heating. Just thought I�d
throw my 2 cents in for the motors condition for you
Good luck
Jim Husted
Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I'm behind in my list reading by almost
2000 messages. I'm trying to
catch up.
Meanwhile, I've been working on a wiring diagram to send to my brother.
I've posted it on my website, in the EV section --
http://www.judebert.com/wasted_youth/EV/EV.html -- and I'd appreciate
having a peer review. I've tried to incorporate the ideas from our last
wiring diagram examination.
Thanks in advance,
Jude
---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Someone had asked about the weight of John's 13" housing frame. I'd
guessed around 80 Lbs. I weighed it and it is 113 Lbs. WOW.
Although it could have been reduced in weight it would have been
tough to do and we didn't have the time this year to do anything
about it. Besides this gives us an area to work on next year for
even better times with the Purple Phaze.
I've been receiving E-mails about motors from people and I'm happy to
answer any questions they might have. When at all possible please
include any motor numbers on the motors housing or send a picture if
you can. This will help, in not only getting you some correct data
but will help even more with a faster answer as I will not have to
respond with what motor are you working on and then have to wait for
a response etc.
Also it seems all the E-mails I've received have started with "I hate
to bug you but". Please don't think you are bugging me, as this is
why I joined this group. I'm hoping that I can help those who are
not experts with motors. As I feel that I have learned more here
than I've taught I'm happy to answer any and all questions concerning
motors.
Further more I'm looking into what it would take to create an
adjustable brush ring for both the Warfield and advance 8" motor.
This would be a conversion kit, where anyone could drop it into their
motor with a little modification to the C.E. plate. All the consumer
would need to do is remove the lifter posts that the OEM brush ring
sits on, drill 4 holes and lock it down to the plate. The brush ring
would now sit on this and become adjustable. This would prevent
having to drill and tap new holes into your housing for new motors
and would make timing a motor very user friendly.
Also I read somewhere here that you can't get regen from an advanced
timed motor due to arcing. If you could get the motor to reset to
neutral for regen would that be beneficial or feasible. I'm looking
for input as to whether this would be something you all could / would
use. I'm hoping that it would be an inexpensive retro part that
everyone could afford to do if they wanted.
Getting late got to go
Thanks all
Jim Husted
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I looked up what the D-mod SCCA class was.
Turns out that its unlimited modifications, under 2 liters,
except that you must retain the "floor plan"
and the basics of the driveline.
Does this mean that the Electric Imp is beating
funky ultra-light nitro-burning or racing 2-cycle
engines? I know that the motocross bikes have
itty bitty engines that generate like 250hp, but
need to be re-built every few hours of operation.
If those kind of race mods are out there, a win
is very, very impressive.
Or does Electric Imp have an advantage since they
classified it as less than 2 liters, even though
it can have relatively unlimited motor size/current?
aaron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger, Chris, Mike, and others,
You are not alone!. A number of folks in my local EV club (the DEVC) care
about this EM thread, keep it going! We are just doing more silent lurking
rather than talking at the moment.
The thread on making a performance electric motorcycle is being closely
watched by at least 3 people in the Denver / Boulder area of Colorado. One
person
is upgrading an electric FJ100 Yamaha, one has a 750 Kawasaki project almost
complete and myself. From my personal view an EM project is an excellent low
cost way to get my first EV project completed and on the road. I have an
extensive motorcycling background (25 years including major mechanical
repairs)
and a computer electronic hardware and software background. Only the FETs in
the EV controller are bigger than I'm used to!
Our club actually has a sub group that regularly collaborate on EM protects
of all sizes.
Silence ended.
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
Board Member, Web Administration and Newsletter Editor
_http://www.devc.org_ (http://www.devc.org/)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
Highlands Ranch, Colorado
303-791-8880
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
Why don't you experiment and find out? I've folded, spindled and
mutilated every type of Li battery I could get my hands on and I've
seen nothing exciting at all happen other than a burst case or two.
Why don't you buy a single TS cell from Victor and destructively test
it? Maybe he'll donate a bad one or something.
John
As I get bad ones as a results of my testings, I'll provide
dead cells to anyone who wants to burn/disassemble/do whatever
with them at the cost of shipping. I don't have that many yet,
but periodically they become available. I do have 5-6 at the moment.
Any takers?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For anyone interested in pursuing NiMH EV Rangers,
there are two in Canada which are going to be
auctioned soon. Need to contact before end of next wk.
They are allowing a private bidding before posting on
ebay or other auction site.
Note that these are low mileage vehicles. Don't know
their running condition, but their gauges are in km
rather than miles.
BR,
Ed Thorpe
> Subject: FOR SALE (2) Ford Ranger Electric pickups
> From: S.Guy Gauthier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
---------------------------------
Dear E.A.A. members and interested parties,
FOR SALE: (2) FORD 2000 RANGER ELECTRIC XL 4X2 (R08,
425A) Pickups
Prior to placing these vehicles on the market of:
E-BAY, Public Sale or Auction. We wish to give you and
your fellow members an opportunity to acquire these
units first.
Full specifications are available on request. This
offer will last until 18 June, 2005, after which the
units will be offered for Public Sale.
You are encouraged to make further contact with S. Guy
Gauthier at 1(888) 576-2227 or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For details and offers on these nice NIMH battery
operated units.
Very Truly Yours,
S. Guy Gauthier
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The controller draws power to stay on. Typically, they draw something
> near an amp. This results in some drop across the pre-charge resistor.
What controller draws an amp? My Curtis draws more like 10ma. An Auburn
I measured once was about 20ma.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> With this precharging business, I always wondered but never got clear
> answer: why not have caps permanently connected to the battery
> and have main contactors disconnect just controller from it all?
You want a very low inductance path for the loop containing the
capacitors, MOSFETs, and freewheel diodes. The current in this path is
pulsing on/off as the MOSFETs switch, so any inductance in this loop
produces large voltage transients.
If the main contactor was in this loop, it would need to be inside the
controller, and wired with very short leads. It's possible, but
complicates an already difficult design problem. It's been easier to
leave the contactor outside this loop, and deal with the precharge
problem separately.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
add me to the interested persons list
i'm building a em out of a kawasaki 1970's z650 frame
with an etek built into a custom swingarm
hardly high performance i know but still .........
regards from the uk
rich ball
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Roger, Chris, Mike, and others,
> You are not alone!. A number of folks in my local EV
> club (the DEVC) care
> about this EM thread, keep it going! We are just
> doing more silent lurking
> rather than talking at the moment.
>
> The thread on making a performance electric
> motorcycle is being closely
> watched by at least 3 people in the Denver / Boulder
> area of Colorado. One person
> is upgrading an electric FJ100 Yamaha, one has a 750
> Kawasaki project almost
> complete and myself. From my personal view an EM
> project is an excellent low
> cost way to get my first EV project completed and on
> the road. I have an
> extensive motorcycling background (25 years
> including major mechanical repairs)
> and a computer electronic hardware and software
> background. Only the FETs in
> the EV controller are bigger than I'm used to!
>
> Our club actually has a sub group that regularly
> collaborate on EM protects
> of all sizes.
>
> Silence ended.
>
> Mike Bachand
> Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
> Board Member, Web Administration and Newsletter
> Editor
> _http://www.devc.org_ (http://www.devc.org/)
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
> Highlands Ranch, Colorado
> 303-791-8880
>
>
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll be driving from Portland to Salt Lake City on June 19, so if there's
anyone along that route who would like one of the dead batteries from
Victor, I'd be happy to drop them off free of charge.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 9:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium safety?
Neon John wrote:
> Why don't you experiment and find out? I've folded, spindled and
> mutilated every type of Li battery I could get my hands on and I've
> seen nothing exciting at all happen other than a burst case or two.
> Why don't you buy a single TS cell from Victor and destructively test
> it? Maybe he'll donate a bad one or something.
>
> John
As I get bad ones as a results of my testings, I'll provide
dead cells to anyone who wants to burn/disassemble/do whatever
with them at the cost of shipping. I don't have that many yet,
but periodically they become available. I do have 5-6 at the moment.
Any takers?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver wrote:
You'll probably spend more on the adapter which will be more
complicated than a DC motor adapter.
Sorry Mark, totally false. In fact you can use ADC plate with
centering ring railored for AC motor.
The primary issue is that the motors are splined..
C'mon Mark, don't mislead newbies. You know better than
anyone that motor shaft (splines vs keyway) has absolutely
NOTHING to do with adapter plate.
If my motor would have keyed shaft, the plate would
still be *identical*.
and everything is
metric. (or was until your ADC shaft adapter)
Oh, not again. I could easily produce drawings with
dimensions in thousands of an inch already converted.
In fact, this is what I had to do for my machinist.
How difficult it was? Precisely 2 clicks of a mouse.
I scaled my metric drawing 25.4 times smaller and
every dimension in mm became a number of inches,
*directly* downloadable in CNC machine. took
less than 20 seconds.
Mine and Gary Graunke's plates were fabricated that way.
The metric stuff shouldn't be an issue, but most small machine shops
expect all the drawings will be in 1/1000's inch. It means that careful
conversions must be done when designing the plates. Can be error prone..
See above. Don't make the issue where there is none.
The splines were especially difficult.. in a larger city like Portland I
am sure you can find machine shops with the tooling or the blanks.. here
in Austin I couldn't.
The splines indeed are pain for DIY's. So I made adapter. But the
splines in industry are just as common as keys (granted, metric
spline tool sets are rare). My shop didn't care - they just
probed the shaft and made an impression of it - they don't care about
metric/inch. They just take any shape part and CNC drags a probe tip
across recording its shape.
I had to go to Houston and even then they rented the tooling to cut the
spline (Basically the hub ended up being $350, the plate and spacer
another $750).
My sympathy, but this was rather your problem than
motor's or Siemens' :-)
The splines are hardened so you can't just round the
shaft down. (and it probably wouldn't transmit power without slipping
sans keyway or splines) It might be helpful to offer machine services
to your customers..
As I said, the splines to smooth shaft converter was designed precisely
for this reson, so the customer won't have to deal with splines.
As I daid, splines are more pain than keyways until you have
right hardware. If off-shelf taper locks for splines would be
sold everywhere, there wouldn't be an issue with splines wer se,
right?
No one complains that ADC motors shafts aren't coming with
a flywheel flange as a part of the shaft already, and
everyone adapts to what they got (just keyed shaft).
Same here, just not as common yet. But I can see your pain Mark.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can you elaborate (quantify) Bill?
I understand the purpose of caps and inductance in between,
but not suggesting to mount caps in the rear, contactors in the
cabin and controller under hood with cable in between.
I'm talking about quality contactors integrated into
controller with contacts directly shorting cap bus to
the power stage positive - contact resistance is
not much bigger than just solid bar and inductance
is negligible *in this case* too.
As of throttle, once contactor engaged and contacts represent
dead short, throttle- no throttle won't matter.
Yes, with even a few inches of conductor it will have
enough inductance to cause large voltage spikes when very
short 1000's amps pulses go through, well known fact.
For AC BTW it is limited to ~300A, second, contacts
are sitting *directly* across bus bars inside inverter.
Yes, precharging may be cheaper and cleaner, but not the
only way.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 01:12 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
This, again, begs the question: why not mount capacitors
on the battery side and have contactors disconnect the
controller only?
The wire (and contactor, etc.) in between has inductance. This
would defeat the purpose of the capacitors.
Just for fun, why don't you try this with one of your
controllers? Make sure to have a video camera focused on the controller
when you press the throttle the first time. If you do this at night,
with the cover off the controller, the video will be even more spectacular.
Victor
Mark Hanson wrote:
Howdy,
I've used a contactor that closes each time you touch the accelerator
peddle
on my EV's for the last 30 years and havn't seen any contactor
problems. I
have a pre-charge resistor which is simply a resistor in series with
a led
(about 6k ohms for 20ma 3 watts). It keeps the controller bulk caps
charged. Also I have a main contactor for the ignition key to turn
on the
DC converter and supply the main power.
Mark
----- Original Message ----- From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:30 PM
Subject: Click Clack (was: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?)
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim, could you pls drop me an email today? It's about Power of DC tomorrow.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me know when (time) you will pick them up so I get a few ready.
Victor
Bill Dennis wrote:
I'll be driving from Portland to Salt Lake City on June 19, so if there's
anyone along that route who would like one of the dead batteries from
Victor, I'd be happy to drop them off free of charge.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 9:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium safety?
Neon John wrote:
Why don't you experiment and find out? I've folded, spindled and
mutilated every type of Li battery I could get my hands on and I've
seen nothing exciting at all happen other than a burst case or two.
Why don't you buy a single TS cell from Victor and destructively test
it? Maybe he'll donate a bad one or something.
John
As I get bad ones as a results of my testings, I'll provide
dead cells to anyone who wants to burn/disassemble/do whatever
with them at the cost of shipping. I don't have that many yet,
but periodically they become available. I do have 5-6 at the moment.
Any takers?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks,
One of the Faculty at the Physics dept. here in Reno teaches an
engineering physics class and we were trying to get some figures for
various EVs to compare the energy cost to ICE vehicles. If I could boil
it down to watts per mile including charging loss that would be great.
Does anyone have data for a few different types of on road BEVs,
manufactured / conversions , dc, ac, regen
etc.? Thank you Bill Brinsmead
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just replied to Bill Dube on this, thanks Lee.
As I mentioned, I don't think it is technically difficult to mount
contactors inside controller. May not be economical, this is different
issue. It can be made to work for majority of controllers.
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
With this precharging business, I always wondered but never got clear
answer: why not have caps permanently connected to the battery
and have main contactors disconnect just controller from it all?
You want a very low inductance path for the loop containing the
capacitors, MOSFETs, and freewheel diodes. The current in this path is
pulsing on/off as the MOSFETs switch, so any inductance in this loop
produces large voltage transients.
If the main contactor was in this loop, it would need to be inside the
controller, and wired with very short leads. It's possible, but
complicates an already difficult design problem. It's been easier to
leave the contactor outside this loop, and deal with the precharge
problem separately.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's watt-hours (watts * hours) per mile, not just watts.
Don't let your teacher teach wrong thing :-)
William Brinsmead wrote:
Hi Folks,
One of the Faculty at the Physics dept. here in Reno teaches an
engineering physics class and we were trying to get some figures for
various EVs to compare the energy cost to ICE vehicles. If I could boil
it down to watts per mile including charging loss that would be great.
Does anyone have data for a few different types of on road BEVs,
manufactured / conversions , dc, ac, regen
etc.? Thank you Bill Brinsmead
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Over 43,000 miles, I have be averaging 233.2 Watt hours per mile out of
the battery pack. The charging effeciency of my charger, a PFC-20 is
about 92%. I estimate my batteries (Trojan T890's) deliver about 90%.
My estimated out of the wall use is around 281 Watt hours per mile
Lynn Adams
See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of William Brinsmead
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 10:55 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Watt hours for EVs
Hi Folks,
One of the Faculty at the Physics dept. here in Reno teaches an
engineering physics class and we were trying to get some figures for
various EVs to compare the energy cost to ICE vehicles. If I could boil
it down to watts per mile including charging loss that would be great.
Does anyone have data for a few different types of on road BEVs,
manufactured / conversions , dc, ac, regen
etc.? Thank you Bill Brinsmead
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Chris Tromley wrote:
>
> >What really happens when a lithium battery burns?
>
> Buy the lowest cost Thunder Sky battery available and short circuit it
> or crush it and see if anything happens... (stay out of the fumes,
> and be ready for a possible fireball..)
>
> Hook that 500 amp carbon pile load tester up to it and see what it's
> max output is and if it can do it with no damage...
>
> Charge the battery with no care about overcharging and see if there
> are any ill effects...
No, the point I am trying to make is that the overloading and charging
issues should be manageable (eventually) with a good BMS. Cobalt oxide
lithiums have some serious issues when they are mechanically penetrated
and/or shorted (as in a crash) - apparently the fire that ensues tends to be
self sustaining. (See http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp for a video.)
I fairly confident lithium batteries will reach the point where they
sufficiently limit the tendency to catch fire due to their own operation.
What concerns me most is what happens if a lithium battery is involved in an
*externally-caused* fire.
Neon John wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:32:20 -0400, "Chris Tromley"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >I have read
> >that hydrofluoric gas can be released.
>
> Possibly, though the reactions don't favor that. More likely are
> smaller molecule fluorinated hydrocarbons. When halogenated
> hydrocarbons burn (freon, for instance), the foul smelling, choking
> product is widely reported as HF or phosgene or ..... The
> overwhelming percentage of the products are chloramines and
> fluoramins. Nasty substances in their own right when concentrated but
> not "war gas".
>
> The release of these substances occurs when ANY halocarbon burns.
> Teflon, freon, tefzel, etc. The stuff in an Li battery will be
> neither worse nor better than other substances in this class.
I've dug into this a little, and what I've found contradicts your statement.
Unfortunately I don't know enough about the chemistry or manufacturing
processes to speak authoritatively, but here's an MSDS that clearly states
hydrogen fluoride is a decomposition byproduct that must be dealt with.
http://www.inspired-energy.com/Standard_Products/MSDS%20Moli%2018650%20up%20
to%202400mAh.pdf It goes on in some detail about just how nasty HF is.
Even though there is no hydrofluoric acid present in the product. This is
for a cobalt oxide based secondary battery of 2 Ah capacity.
> I know that it's an unpopular thing to do in certain circles but if
> the manufacturer, the guys who know the product better than anyone and
> who have to defend their claims, say that the product is safe then I
> believe them until credible evidence to the contrary comes to light.
The problem is that "safe" is a relative term, and it applies to different
things. I believe Valence is an honorable company that is doing its best to
provide a beneficial product. After poking around their site, it appears
"safe" to them means that they use phosphates instead of oxides to minimize
the tendency for a lithium battery to start and sustain a fire. This is
great stuff, and I applaud their efforts. But they say *nothing at all*
about the dangers their batteries pose when burned by external causes.
<several responses snipped, all regarding the dangers of peripheral
materials burning, not my main concern here of the decomposition products of
the reactive battery materials>
> >I can't escape the feeling that everyone is so jazzed about lithium
> >batteries that we are ignoring any possible downside. This is exactly
> what
> >happened with nuclear power.
>
> Well no, not actually. Nuclear was nuked by a combination of
> ignorance, a well-funded campaign against it by other energy producers
> (TVA won a suit regarding this some time ago) and public relations
> ineptness on the part of operators.
>
> >The actual possibility of a meltdown is
> >inconsequential if you've done your homework and take the necessary
> steps.
> >But no one could solve the spent fuel disposal problem, so they just
> ignored
> >it and figured "we'll get back to that later". Now every reactor has a
> >growing stockpile of its own waste and the industry is essentially in
> >maintenance mode. (And hopefully will remain so, until they properly
> solve
> >that nagging little problem.)
>
> Actually the "problem" is currently "solved" (the spent fuel is being
> safely and fairly economically stored at each site.) There is nothing
> magic about hauling the stuff across country and burying it. It's a
> waste of resources since only about 3% of the fissionable uranium is
> burned in a power reactor but certainly not a hazard.
>
> I think the analogy is good, though, in a way you might not
> appreciate. Nuke power was slaughtered by rumor, innuendo, outright
> lies and hysteria. Our attitude for too long was that since this
> stuff was so good, how could we take the critics seriously?
>
> Which is a mistake we have to not make. Once there is money to be
> made in opposition, the critics will crawl out of the mud and spew
> forth all manner of lies and distortions. We have to take them
> seriously and expose the lies early on.
At the risk of an OT discussion, let me clarify my use of the nuclear
analogy so it makes my intended point. I will avoid opinion and spin where
possible and stick to facts.
FACTS:
Nuclear power is wonderfully clean as it makes electricity. It is a totally
cool technology. The potential for horrific accidents does exist, with
devastating and essentially permanent environmental effects. (Set aside 20
minutes and go to
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/chapter1.html .) It is quite
possible though, to operate these facilities with such a robust approach to
safety to virtually eliminate this risk.
The fly in the ointment is that some nuclear waste materials remain lethal
for 100s of *thousands* of years. Human civilization has existed for only
around 15000. Let that soak in a moment. How many civilizations have
risen, fallen and disappeared in a measly 15000 years?
OPINION:
The coolness or potential of the technology does not justify overlooking,
minimizing or dismissing the problems. Even if it's possible to ensure the
safety of that waste *forever* (which is the subject of vigorous debate and
which I seriously doubt), it's just plain wrong to impose that burden on
1000s of generations to come.
Lithium batteries are very cool. So cool it's easy to overlook the
problems. So far there are indications of possible problems, but no one is
talking about them much. Either for or against. *Now* is the time to
identify them and address them. Whatever you believe are the reasons, the
nuclear industry is dead. I don't want that to happen to a promising new EV
technology.
> >The risk of a lithium "meltdown" can also be inconsequential with a good
> >BMS. But it looks like someday, after we've all enthusiastically
> endorsed
> >the technology, we might find people are getting seriously messed up by
> it.
> >If so, we'll have some very embarrassing questions to answer. Those with
> >investments to lose will continue to defend the technology, no matter
> what.
> >Kinda puts us EVers in the same group as tobacco lobbyists and oil
> >executives.
>
> Boy, that's a broad smear based on nothing at all. I personally doubt
> that a full scale Li battery meltdown is even possible (just like the
> incredibility of a full core melt accident in a nuke) but even if it
> is, so what? We all drive around with many times the potential energy
> in our gas tanks and THAT energy can be released very rapidly
> (explosion or rapid combustion.) No one other than firemen give that
> much thought at all. In my lifetime, the BEST I can hope for in Li
> batteries is the energy equivalent of a few gallons of gasoline.
It is human nature to act in one's own self-interest. A very strong case
can be made that *all* actions by all people at all times are solely out of
self-interest. So yes, it's a broad smear, but based on human nature.
Watch the video above. Valence is pretty convincing in suggesting that a
full-pack meltdown (non-Saphion) is a very real possibility. These are the
people you suggested I trust concerning the safety of the product.
> The problem here, as with the perceived hazards associated with
> nuclear power, is that people with little or no scientific knowledge
> and experience is that they have no sense of proportionality.
> According to the government, the risk of being killed in an ordinary
> car wreck on any given day is something like 1 in 700 yet very few
> people give that more than a passing thought. Contrast that to the
> absolutely out of control emotional train wreck that some people
> become when the mere mention of nuclear power is made. Even if the
> risks were as bad as the critics claim, the probability of being
> harmed by a nuke is vanishingly low.
The critical difference between car wrecks and nuke disasters is that I have
some choice and control over my fate in a vehicle. I think you'll find the
general public feels similarly. You are quite correct about the perceived
hazards and sense pf proportionality, though. The reason I raised this
issue is that I've seen indications of potential problems, coupled with what
seems to me to be a specific desire to *not* talk about them. That's the
sort of thing that's guaranteed to pique my interest.
I'm honestly not trying to malign the lithium battery industry or engage in
fear-mongering. I'm trying to get us to open our eyes and see *all* of
reality, not just what we want to see. I want to find that there is in fact
no problem here, or that any real problems are reasonably limited. I
believe that might even be likely. But I'm not going to assume it because
no one wants to talk about it. We don't know yet. We don't have the facts.
> Or if you don't want to talk about nukes, consider mad cow disease.
> There is yet to be a proven trail from the cow form to the human form
> of the disease and there have only been a few cow cases and yet entire
> continents have gone ape-sh*t. Meanwhile such real risks as the
> common flu get scant attention. Consider how many people the flu
> kills each year and then consider how little is done to prevent it.
> Flu shots are about it. No proportionality at all.
You're absolutely right. Sorry, I can't make the whole world act
rationally. I have to pick my battles. ;^)
> >*Definitely* keep developing lithium batteries. But *do*not* ignore the
> >problems it poses. If problems exist fix them sooner, not later. The
> first
> >step is a clear and open discussion of what the problems are.
>
> This sounds like a version of "consensus science" (sic) where the
> correct science is whatever the consensus is at the moment and the
> many sides to the discussion have equal value. There was once a
> consensus that the earth was flat but that didn't make it so!
No, quite the opposite. At this point I see the consensus view being that
lithium batteries are the Next Big Thing, so let's just go for it. I hope
the consensus is correct. But I believe it's much better for such a
consensus to be based on fact. Not hope, enthusiasm and ignorance.
> What "we" need to do is to prepare educational materials, dumbed down
> to the reading level of the general public and the media, on these
> batteries and distribute it widely, including to the media. This
> material should included well written articles suitable for lazy
> journalists to cut'n'paste.
Yes. AFTER we determine that the technology is truly ready for prime time.
It seems to me you are completely unaware of any potential HF hazard, even
though several sources indicate there may be one. Or you don't care, and
want to build a public consensus based on what you want to believe, or what
*you* think the public needs to know. I want facts. Once I get them and
I'm satisfied with them, I'll be first in line to help you hand out your
educational materials.
If we ignore the facts and (hypothetically) HF injuries start getting press,
you can bet all the same rumor, innuendo and hysteria that killed the
nuclear industry will kill lithium batteries, and EVs along with them.
> >I'm not
> >qualified to do so. Is there anyone here who is? What really happens
> when
> >a lithium battery burns?
>
> Why don't you experiment and find out? I've folded, spindled and
> mutilated every type of Li battery I could get my hands on and I've
> seen nothing exciting at all happen other than a burst case or two.
> Why don't you buy a single TS cell from Victor and destructively test
> it? Maybe he'll donate a bad one or something.
Because I'm not willing to donate my lungs to the cause. There are people
who know the answers I'm looking for. Maybe even some on this list. If
not, at least I've given people something to think about and to look into
more deeply. I sincerely hope we can eventually give lithium a clean bill
of health and promote it with enthusiasm.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Jun 2005 at 15:39, Tom Watson wrote:
> Is it just me or is anyone else getting digest mode
> with 20 or so posts listed in it but only 1 or 2
> messages quoted?
Sorry about the problem. I'm looking into this with the list support people.
Hang in there.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Jun 2005 at 11:30, Reverend Gadget wrote:
> > Besides the braking gained, was the expense of
> > regeneration worth $0.00277
> > per 60 mph stop?
>
> I think the point is being missed here. Most of the
> cars that we convert are made with standard
> transmissions. The brakes are sized accordingly.
Rev G makes a good point.
I would add that there is a sort of "look and feel" issue. Just drive an EV
with a series motor, a half-ton of batteries in the back seat, and standard
factory brakes, and you'll take my meaning. When you head down a hill,
there is (at least to me) a sense of not quite being in control. Even with
upgraded brakes, the sense of "hurtling" is unsettling. It feels a lot like
riding a bike down a steep hill with 50 lb. of stuff in your backpack.
When you replace the original ICE drive's engine braking with at least
regenerative or dynamic release braking, it makes all the difference in the
world.
I realize that my opinion in this matter isn't universal, but I don't think
that series motors are really the ideal choice for a road EV. It's partly
because regen is so difficult with them, and partly because of the way their
torque curve works. I think that a Sep-Ex DC or induction AC motor (with
the right controller and regen) produces significantly better driveability.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
I used to have a Zapi H2 with regen in my Geo Prizm, with a 120v pack of
Optima buddy pairs with Rudman Regulators and an ADC 9" motor. I had to
drill and tap new holes in the motor case to be able to set the brushes
to neutral.
The Zapi has two types of regen: off-throttle and braking. I originally
had them both functional, but disabled the braking regen after just a few
days because it seemed/felt too harsh. The amount of regen is programmable
but I didn't have a programming console.
The regen worked pretty well. The controller would pump about 50 amps
into the pack when I was coming down the longer hills around Portland.
This was great when the pack was not fully charged, but if the pack was
fully charged the regen would make the regulators go crazy trying to keep
the battery voltages in control.
One odd quirk I noticed about using this setup was that I would hear a
sound like a dragging chain under the car when coasting slowly. This
sound went away when I replaced the Zapi with a DCP600 and reset the
brush timing.
Bob Wing (RIP) had a Zapi with regen in his MGA. Search on the web for
some of his postings for more information.
Ralph
Lawrence Rhodes writes:
>
> I'm considering doing a VW bug conversion with 10 big Optimas for added
> range at 120v with a Zapi Controller. I was told it works with 4 terminal
> motors only. I am assuming that is a series motor. So instead of a buss
> bar across two connections those connections are used. Has anyone used a
> Zapi controller with regen with good success? In hilly San
> Francisco.....Lawrence Rhodes........
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ALL LIST MEMBERS: Please DO NOT continue the discussion of nuclear power on
this listserver. You are welcome to discuss it vigorously in private email,
but it's off topic and potential flame fuel here.
Folks, please make sure you consider the potential for controversy before
you use off-topic references as supporting examples on-topic issues. There
is quite a wide diversity of opinion on this list.
Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
My Ranger pickup conversion and other similar trucks used about
500 watt-hours per mile. General Motor's EV-1 used about
200. The Corbin Sparrow needs about 150.
A rule of thumb that seems to apply to all EVs is that 10 kwhr is
approximately equivalent to one gallon of gasoline. In other
words it takes about 10 kwhr to do what one gallon of gasoline
can do.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Brinsmead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 9:54 AM
Subject: Watt hours for EVs
Hi Folks,
One of the Faculty at the Physics dept. here in Reno teaches an
engineering physics class and we were trying to get some figures for
various EVs to compare the energy cost to ICE vehicles. If I could boil
it down to watts per mile including charging loss that would be great.
Does anyone have data for a few different types of on road BEVs,
manufactured / conversions , dc, ac, regen
etc.? Thank you Bill Brinsmead
--- End Message ---
