EV digest 4430

Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:20:10 -0700 

                            EV Digest 4430

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Drat, so much for Power of DC
        by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Aerobatteries Arrive for White Zombie
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
        by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Watt hours for EVs
        by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Watt hours for EVs
        by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Lithium safety?
        by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
        by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Please Critique Wiring Diagram
        by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Watt Hours & Blue Meanie Performance
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) ThunderSky over-discharge experience, was Re: Lithium safety?
        by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Click Clack
        by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Please Critique Wiring Diagram
        by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: GEM cars
        by "J Mac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: GEM cars
        by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
        by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
        by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Lithium safety?
        by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Please Critique Wiring Diagram
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Three electric vehicles from China
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- Well, unfortunately I can't seem to line up any quick charging in Mt. Airy MD (the 30 mile point for the trip) and my chances for making it from Baltimore to FDK without over-discharging and destroying my pack are pretty much nil.
Thus I don't think I'll be bringing the AC Prizm to Power of DC. Drat. I'll see about driving up in the gasser. 

Chris

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hello to All,

Well, the pieces to this year's Zombie puzzle are all falling into place it 
seems. Barring
any unexpected setbacks, the latest version of White Zombie should be at the 
track in the
next two to three weeks. It should weigh about 2250 lbs. and with 336V of 29 
ahr Hawker
Aerobatteries, it will make some serious hp. My guess, is that at the 
switch-over to hyper
speed, the sagged pack will give about 364 kw of power or about 488 hp of 
electrical
energy! The new Siamese 8 motor should make 300 hp with this kind of power 
input. The
Aerobatteries are a version of the military spec Hawkers and are a cut above 
the already
stout regular Hawkers. The models I'm using are rated at 29 ahrs c20 and 26 
ahrs c6, weigh
24 lbs. each, and can make as high as 2400 amps in the short circuit test. I 
expect that
sagged down to 6.5V per module, they'll make 2000+ amps stressed under my right 
foot! The
28 module pack for White Zombie will weigh 672 lbs., a healthy drop of 288 lbs. 
compared
to the 288V stack of Orbitals that were in the car, and 128 lbs. less than the 
240V
Orbital powered version that ran the 12.99 @ 101 mph run. Minus weight shaved 
in other
areas, this latest 336V version will weigh about 200 lbs. less over the 240V 
version.

I was in between service calls when my personal cell phone range...it was my 
friend Adam
at Aerobatteries, L. P. in Texas telling me that Yellow Freight had notified 
them my 30
brand new Aerobatteries were at their warehouse in Portland and that they were 
planning on
a Sunday drop-off of the batteries at my house. Can you say 'excited'? I was 
about 5 miles
from the warehouse at the time of the call, and, was even heading that 
direction on the
way back to the shop. A quick call to Jenny at Yellow Freight confirmed the 
arrival of my
batteries, and she told me it was absolutely no problem for me to stop by and 
pick them up.

I got to Yellow Freight, checked in at the security guard shack, then proceeded 
to the
customer will call warehouse. It was all so easy. After checking in at the desk 
and
signing off on paperwork, they told me to wait by my service truck as the 
forklift driver
would bring the pallet out to me...cool. The next thing that happened, is one 
of those
weirdo coincidences that often find their way into my Wayland adventure stories 
:-) Tell
me, what are the odds of this....here comes one of perhaps 30 forklift drivers 
at the huge
yellow freight complex I'm at, wearing a Hawker Odyssey hat! As Pat and his 
Toyota
forklift approached my service truck, he says to me, "Hey, you're not the usual 
guy that
picks up his Hawkers here...what are you going to do with 30 of these super 
batteries?"
Seems Pat was well versed in all things 'Hawker'. We had a great conversation 
about the
incredibly powerful Hawkers, EVs, EV drag racing car audio....you know, all the 
things 
Plasma Boy gets pumped up over. I left with my new bunch of Hawkers still 
grinning over 
the forklift guy wearing a Hawker hat.

I want to thank Aerbatteries L. P. and Hawker for their support of my EV 
racing. Recently,
there was some discussion about where one could buy quality EV batteries over 
the internet
and such. Aerobatteries L. P. in Tyler, Texas is a Hawker Odyssey dealer that 
offers free
shipping. They are very good people that will treat you fairly. They can be 
reached at
(903) 592-2176, and found on the internet at <http://aerobatteries.com/>

See Ya...John Wayland

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
The discussion began with the premise that regeneration during deceleration
was effectively recharging the batteries.  It has evolved into the need to
use the motors as brakes.  Perhaps the term 'motor braking' would be more
accurate because it is braking that we want.  Capturing electrical discharge
kWh power is not primary.
Ok, back to discussion. The Prizm regens typically 50amps into the batteries during a normal stop (325v). Coming off a highway ramp I can usually pick up .75ah on the regen. It also gives the car some extra "bump" power when accelerating after a stop. The pack voltage is higher, and doesn't sag as much for a little bit. 

Worth having.
Chris

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Bill,

My '93 Dodge TEVan, (Production):
180V - 5.4KW of Saft NiCd's.
27HP GE Sep-Ex with regen.
The van weighs 5040 lbs and is about as streamlined as a brick.
Driving on flat city streets and throughways with speeds averaging almost
40 mph, (that's 0-50+ and stop and go traffic lights). 
24K miles on the odometer today, uses an average of 525 Watt hours per mile.
With the AC on it gets up closer to 600.
The charger is an on-board Martin Marietta Power Factor Corrected and very
efficient.

I track and measure my usage at the wall with a WattHour meter on my
charging receptacle and haven't calculated the vehicle or battery
efficiency.

BTW: (At $.02476 per KWh, that can get me a long ways on $2.25 or one
gallon of gasoline in Phx).

Jim
'93 Dodge TEVan
"Breathe Easy - It's Electric"

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
      Hi Tom, Bill and All,
         Then you have the more eff EV's like John
Bryan's Karmen Ghia EV conversion and my E woody
custom built as an EV that get 100wt-hr/mile from
lightweight, fairly good aero, low frontal area. Mine
is from the socket, not sure about John's. Both are DC
series motors.
         I'm hoping for 90wt-hr/mile on my new Freedom
EV.
         These and many others are in the EV Photo
Album you may want to check out.
          Getting soaked from the hurricane as it
probably is by now, luckily it's far enough away we
only get rain. It reminds us of last yr though here in
Fla.
                HTH's,
                  Jerry Dycus



--- Tom Shay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My Ranger pickup conversion and other similar trucks
> used about
> 500 watt-hours per mile.  General Motor's EV-1 used
> about
> 200.  The Corbin Sparrow needs about 150.
> 
> A rule of thumb that seems to apply to all EVs is
> that 10 kwhr is
> approximately equivalent to one gallon of gasoline. 
> In other
> words it takes about 10 kwhr to do what one gallon
> of gasoline
> can do.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "William Brinsmead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 9:54 AM
> Subject: Watt hours for EVs
> 
> 
> > Hi Folks,
> >  One of the Faculty at the Physics dept. here in
> Reno teaches an 
> > engineering physics class and we were trying to
> get some figures for 
> > various EVs to compare the energy cost to ICE
> vehicles. If I could boil 
> > it down to watts per mile including charging loss
> that would be great. 
> > Does anyone have data for a few different types of
> on road BEVs, 
> > manufactured / conversions , dc, ac, regen 
> > etc.?                                   Thank you
> Bill Brinsmead
> > 
> >
> 
> 



                
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 

On Jun 10, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:


Chris Tromley wrote:

No, the point I am trying to make is that the overloading and charging
issues should be manageable (eventually) with a good BMS.


This question contains contradiction.
I think you misunderstood Victor. It seems to me he is saying that overload and overcharge can be managed (in time, there seems to be no EV size off the shelf solution yet.)
His concern seems to be with what battery management cannot manage - accident damage that could include penetration of cells, shorting of cells or fire fueled by another source (perhaps someone else's ruptured gas tank.)
Mitigation and understanding of these types of forced failure will have to be worked out to, if Li is going to make the road in significant numbers. 

Paul "neon" G.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Chris,


50 Amps?  50 Amps x (how many hours) during your stop?

If you put 50 Amps in for 10 seconds I assure you that you could not
objectively measure the difference between that and nothing added.

Boyntonstu




-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 7:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.

> The discussion began with the premise that regeneration during
deceleration
> was effectively recharging the batteries.  It has evolved into the need to
> use the motors as brakes.  Perhaps the term 'motor braking' would be more
> accurate because it is braking that we want.  Capturing electrical
discharge
> kWh power is not primary.

Ok, back to discussion. The Prizm regens typically 50amps into the 
batteries during a normal stop (325v). Coming off a highway ramp I can 
usually pick up .75ah on the regen. It also gives the car some extra 
"bump" power when accelerating after a stop. The pack voltage is higher, 
and doesn't sag as much for a little bit.

Worth having.
Chris

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Thanks for the input, Roland.  I really appreciate it.
It is prefer to have two safety contactors between the battery pack and the controller circuit and other components, so only the battery charger and battery pack is isolated from all other components. I had a DC/DC burn out when charger voltage was on it.
Interesting. I wanted to keep the DC/DC on with the charger to recharge the accessory battery. And I really like having the heater/AC available while I'm plugged in. If I'm going to burn converters, I can definitely take them off the loop; but is it really necessary to take the air conditioning motor off the charging loop? 


There should be fuses before each contactor for every accessory components.
Noted. I assume the idea is that if the accessory shorts, the fuse takes it offline.
No amp and volt indicators circuits are shown, when installing any indications and shunts, be sure to fuse every instrument tap off from the main battery pack.
I'll put in ratings tomorrow. The controller will be a Curtis 1231C, until I can afford a Zilla. I'll put in Zilla-appropriate fuses, so I don't have to upgrade them when I upgrade the controller. 

I'll add the e-meter wiring, too.
Some controllers will required separated control power from either 12 VDC or other which is also control by on dash control switches or the ignition switch. 
More lines to draw.  Sheesh, this is turning into a spider web!
If the the fuel door is the charger AC or DC entry point, it is prefer to have the relay in the normally close position (power off) while the charging plug is unplug and the door is close. The relay is energized only when you are charging. The way you have it shown, the ignition switch would have to be on all the time while you are charging. 
Good point.  I'll fix that.
There is no fan circuit, only a switch. Sometime we add the heater thermostat in this circuit.
Hmm? I didn't understand this. I've drawn a fan switch; it's wired in series with the heater switch, so the fan must be on before the heater can be activated. 
In the heater circuit, you could add a thermostat right after the heat switch, 
also a hi-limit temperature switch which is a thermo disk that is install in 
the heater box that detects over temperature.
Maybe this is the disconnect: that heater is for *me*, not the batteries. A thermostat would still be a neat idea, though. 


In stead of connecting from point to point, meaning connecting directly from 
one component to the other, you could connect all the components to a large 
terminal strip and cross connect between the components at the terminal strip.  
Leave terminal spaces between each component circuit, so you can add or 
modified the circuits as need.  You can tap off each of these circuit points to 
a LED indicator panel which will indicated the circuit paths and will ease on 
board trouble shooting.  Could add bypass circuits so you can fix a problem 
while you are moving with your EV.

I'll experiment with this a bit.

Thanks again.

Jude

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hello to All,

jerry dycus wrote:


> Then you have the more eff EV's like John
> Bryan's Karmen Ghia EV conversion and my E woody
> custom built as an EV that get 100wt-hr/mile from
> lightweight, fairly good aero, low frontal area.
>
With a light weight pack of matched 13 Optimas (no regs, no gassing, and within 
.10 V per
battery after 5 years of service), a curb weight of 2340 lbs., and with 50 psi 
LRR tires
and a small frontal area, Blue Meanie achieves about 145-150 wt-hr/mile (55 
amps with the pack
hanging at 162V @ 60 mph on level ground)....that's why it can get 20 miles per 
charge at
that speed and about 25 miles per charge at 45 mph or so. On a hot summer day, 
I squeezed 
31 miles out of an earlier pack of 13 Optimas, though that was definitley a 
100% discharge!
DC drive, lots of power on tap, and relatively high efficiency overall courtesy 
of the
PFC20 charger under the hood.

Finally, the Optimas are showing their age and the useable range lately has 
dropped to
about 15 miles per charge, though 1000 amps is still there 'right now' whenever 
the urge
for sudden acceleration hits me :-) It will be interesting to see what kind of 
range Blue
Meanie will get when the change is made from 585 lbs. of Optimas @ 156V and a 
2340 lb.
curb weight, to 680 lbs. of Exide Orbitals @ 204V and pretty close to the same 
curb weight
due to weight reductions elsewhere in the car. It will also be interesting to 
experience
the performance boost that the new higher voltage pack of Exides will give, too 
:-) With
fresher Optimas and a 1000 amp draw, the 13 battery pack would sag to 135V 
under full-on
acceleration, 135 kw...about 10.5V per battery. The more aggressive Orbitals 
will probably
sag to about 10.6V per battery at the same 1000 amp draw, or about 180 kw for 
the 17
battery pack.

The peak power seems to be at around 3500 rpm right now, but that will extend 
much farther
out the rpm range with higher voltage, maybe to around 5000 rpm or so. The car 
already
accelerates very well, so yeah, I'm looking forward to another 45 horses, a 
wider power
band for high revving fun and stronger 4th gear speed for an estimated top end 
of around
120 mph (not that I would 'ever' drive that fast), and an increase in range of 
maybe 30-35
miles per charge.

These changes require better gauges than are presently in the car. A stock 
Datsun 1200
came with an optimistic 100 mph speedo (with just 69 hp, 1200s topped out at 94 
mph or so)
and no tripodometer, and no tach, though a nifty optional factory tach dropped 
into the
blank left-most dash circle. Blue Meanie has that 0-8000 rpm tach and the stock
tripodomenter-less 100 mph speedo, but sitting right next to it in the backyard 
EV shop,
is White Zombie fitted with killer Japanese spec hi pro dash gauges...the 120 
mph speedo
with tripodometer, and, the super rare (Datsoholics would kill to get this) 
0-10,000 rpm
racing tach that like the 0-8000 rpm tach, drops right into the dash circle. 
Before White
Zombie was White Zombie, it was a gasser hi revving street machine...1200cc 4 
banger
'slightly' modified :-) Let it suffice to say, that with 11.5/1 compression, 
FIA racing
head with stiffly sprung huge valves and large oval ports, crazy cam, headers 
and free
flow exhaust, racing distributor, and twin 2 barrel 45 mm Weber side draft 
carbs, it made
about 135 hp and needed that 10 grand tach!

White Zombie has giant analog Simpson gauges that have for years, blocked view 
of these
two gauges, both of which aren't even used (the switch to direct drive 
eliminated the
tranny's speedo drive and the tach was never hooked up). You can guess what's 
going to
happen, right? Can you say 'dash gauge swap'? Otmar has designed and built a 
special
Datsun tach driver circuit that allows me to finally run the stock tach...it's 
different
than most all other tachs in the way it needs to be wired in series with the 
primary of an
ignition coil to get its pulses. He's also sent me the hardware to get my 9 
inch ADC
sending out the pulses to the hairball.

Blue Meanie will be a lot more fun to drive with the tach swinging up high, a 
speedo that
can keep up with things, and with a tripodometer to keep track of miles per 
charge.

See Ya.....John Wayland

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I did a 350 km (215 miles) trip in my Skoda electric pickup from Montreal to Ottawa and back on Saturday May 28 for the EVCO show at the Science and Technology Museum (which was a great success and fun event, by the way). This Skoda has an 84 to 93V pack of 26 cells 300A-Hr TS and also 7 DCS-33 33 Amp-Hr AGMs for peak loads help. So the pack is a bit undersized and this low voltage vehicle was not originally intended for highway use. This pack has about 200 charge/discharge cycles on it, most at about 30% DOD. I didn't have time to finish my range expander generator by installing the cooling, so its output was limited to about 50A. I had expected to plug in two 9A chargers on two 120V circuits at the museum for about 7 hours while parked . However, due to breakers tripping and staying off, I had only 1 circuit for about 4 hours worth. So I had a not very significant amount of recharge. Consequently, I was also driving home at lower voltage and speed than intended.
As I was getting near home, and off the highway on suburban roads, the pack voltage was dropping like a rock. I arrived home and plugged in the built-in 9A charger and got out the meter and started probing the 12 cell pairs (200A and 100A) that I can measure easily at the front. They were all very low at 2 point something Volts, except 1 cell was at only 0.97V! Remember, this was under charge, not resting, so this cell pair at least, had surely been reversed under load and probably others of the 14 pairs in the back I didn't check. All front cells looked and felt normal and the front and back temperature readings were in a normal expected range, after such a long run, of 35 to 38 deg. C. I plugged in the extra "portable" 9A home-made charger (made the same way as the main one, from two 55V isolated switching power supplies with 120/240V input) and switched off the AGM helper pack contactor so the current would all go to the TS cells at first. Before very long, all front cells I was checking were above 3V. In the morning, the cells were all showing similar voltage indicating about half charged and they continued charging nicely during the day. The cell pair I had measured at 0.97 was staying right in the middle of all the cell voltages range, suggesting it had not significantly lost capacity (as I would conclude if its voltage had risen higher/faster) nor any other abnormalty. I continued using the pickup as usual to drive to work, etc., since then and I don't see any indication of reduced capacity or other bad consequences. 
Phew!
Conclusions:
These TS cells are more robust than some people think, at least if they get quick "medical" attention after being flatlined. How nice it would have been to have finished the generator and had 100 to 130Amps to be able to run at full power, at the maximum voltage the controller could handle (equal to the voltage near the end of charging) and maximum speed as long as I wanted/needed, independent of charging shortfalls. 

Best Regards,

Doug
----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium safety?



Philippe Borges wrote:


Please don't talk about thundersky batteries safety, they are not EV
batteries at the moment,


Really? How come all these vehicles run?
http://www.metricmind.com/images/liion_veh.gif


maybe one day they will take little more than C/2
without enormous sag and becoming an effective heater.
They can be "safe" because they have only C/2 power capabilty :^(


They are not power batteries, and knowing their properties
you must size your pack accordingly.

If you don't like deep sag, make sure they are large
enough so their C/2 exceed your peak current consumption.

If your peak current is far higher than average, you can:

Use hybrid pack with hi peak power batts
Use ultracaps
Limit your controller input current
Change your driving habits
Warm the cells
Pay more and get right ones for the job.

My LiIons sag like hell, but not because TS batteries are bad.
Because I (unknowingly back then) undersized and overstressed
them, it was my mistake to choose wrong size
(well the choice was based on misleading specs, this is different
story).

If you don't want to do any of these, it is your
decision and your problem, not tundersky's.

I'm just back from Finland where we ran Citroen Berlingo
full of 200Ah cells back and forth in airport (75km round trip).

http://www.metricmind.com/misc/bms/dscn2927.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/bms/dscn2931.jpg

No problem at all. Why? because Berlingo has jsut
22kW low voltage system and never peaks above 160-170A
This is example of right sizing.

If you'd fit 90Ah cells in such a car based on the fact that
capacity is enough to cover your range and claimed 3C
is below your peak, the pack would sag badly, and this would
be *your* fault for such a decision.


i'm still trying to make a "secure" big lipoly pack assembly with lots of
kiss electronic and will even try to make my cell fabrication test BUT
lithium need more R&D to became an EV battery.


Loos like you're energetic guy. Good luck and tell is
when you will succeed.


Philippe

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
At 11:13 AM 6/10/2005, you wrote:

Can you elaborate (quantify) Bill?

I understand the purpose of caps and inductance in between,
but not suggesting to mount caps in the rear, contactors in the
cabin and controller under hood with cable in between.
Every inch of conductor has inductance. When you open up the FETs, (or IGBT) the inductance on the supply side wants to make the current continue to flow. This makes a voltage spike on the FET input and, "bang" there go all the FETs.
You think, "An inch of conductor has such a minuscule inductance. How could this be a problem?" The problem is that the FET turns off so rapidly, a small fraction of a micro-second. It must turn off rapidly because it will absorb a lot of power if it lingers in the "de-saturated" state, offering resistance to the current flowing through it.It must be either milli-ohms or mega-ohms, but never in between.
The caps are on the feed end of the controller to shield the FETs from the inductance of the wire that goes to the batteries.
You will notice that in the well-designed controller, and in the mass-produced VFD or high-power inverter, the conductors from the caps to the IGBTs are thin flat plates with a thin insulator sandwiched between them. This forms a capacitor. Thus, the inductance of the conductors is counteracted by the continuous capacitor formed. 



I'm talking about quality contactors integrated into
controller with contacts directly shorting cap bus to
the power stage positive - contact resistance is
not much bigger than just solid bar and inductance
is negligible *in this case* too.
At the switching speeds involved, almost no amount of inductance is "negligible". 

        Do the math. V=L dI/dt

        2,000 amps. 100 ns.

        dI/dt = 2 x 10^10
If we pick 1200 volts as our maximum allowable voltage across the input of the IGBT, our maximum inductance is -> L = 60 nH
Now, we must leave some margin for the inductance of the capacitor input lugs, etc. 



As of throttle, once contactor engaged and contacts represent
dead short, throttle- no throttle won't matter.

Yes, with even a few inches of conductor it will have
enough inductance to cause large voltage spikes when very
short 1000's amps pulses go through, well known fact.

For AC BTW it is limited to ~300A, second, contacts
are sitting *directly* across bus bars inside inverter.

Yes, precharging may be cheaper and cleaner, but not the
only way.
Perhaps you need to build a small controller yourself, just to get first hand experience with exploding silicon caused by "negligible" inductance. 


   _ /|        Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
  \'o.O'     <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
       U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- The humor was all his. I was laughing my head off that night; even my daughters were tickled by fill "plug".
Thanks for the check on the motor condition, too. That's been bothering me a bit. I assume that polishing the brushes and comm would get it into Great condition? 

Jude

Jim Husted wrote:


I enjoyed your humor about your brother VS. tranny, lol. I saw you were asking for input to 
your motors over all appearance.  From the pictures they look fine (not Great) but they look 
good.  The color of the comm., and the armatures banding tell me it’s working good and 
is not over heating.  Just thought I’d throw my 2 cents in for the motors condition 
for you

Good luck
Jim Husted

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I'm looking for a GEM utility long bed, in the Bay Area.
Will consider transporting one if it's what I need.
Anyone selling or know where I can locate one?
Thanks.


From: "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: GEM cars
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:20:27 -0700

I own a short bed utility GEM and I love it.  It's perfect for my around
town travels, and every time I park it I get to meet someone who is
interested/interesting.  Regarding their 'high' price, it may be somewhat
justified by their excellent design.  A well made aluminum space frame is
surrounded by well fitted fiberglass panels.  The electronics are well done
also.
I admit that GEM's are anything but hot rods, but I feel their shortcomings
are easy to forgive when all factors are considered.
Purchasing mine had another good effect- It perked my interest in EV's to a 
point where I hung up my earlier hobby and am now hot into the construction
of a Honda Civic Hatchback with WarP 9, 15 large Optimas, Zilla Z1K, Rutman
PFC-20 and Batregs.
Working for the grin!
Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 12:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: GEM cars

I checked into those GEM cars recently.  I had no idea how expensive they
were.  $8000 plus a pop, and that's for the cheaper ones with no options or
frills.

Anyone know why they are so expensive?  Are golf carts that expensive?
Aren't these things merely glorified golf carts?

Beyond that... does anyone have any comments on these things, positive or
negative?  Do you think they are good, do you think they are bad, etc?

Thanks.




_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
They rent them by the hour at Ocean Shores Washington.

According to the rental agency, driving them on the beach gets sand into the
speed controller creating a
maintenance problem. He also complained about the recharge time for the gel
cell batteries.

I thought it was a lot nicer than my golf cart.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 12:57 PM
Subject: GEM cars


> I checked into those GEM cars recently.  I had no idea how expensive they
> were.  $8000 plus a pop, and that's for the cheaper ones with no options
or
> frills.
>
> Anyone know why they are so expensive?  Are golf carts that expensive?
> Aren't these things merely glorified golf carts?
>
> Beyond that... does anyone have any comments on these things, positive or
> negative?  Do you think they are good, do you think they are bad, etc?
>
> Thanks.
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On 10 Jun 2005 at 15:27, Ryan Stotts wrote:

> With a DC motor and
> transmission, what's it like going through the gears compared to an
> ICE motor? 

If you're talking about a series motor, it's in some ways rather backwards 
from an ICE.  Instead of torque building as you accelerate, torque is 
highest at breakaway and falls as RPM builds up.  When you don't have enough 
accleration in the current gear, you shift *UP* to drop motor RPM rather 
than down as you would in an ICE.  

All this is rather counter-intuitive, and many new EV drivers overstress 
their series motors by driving them like ICEs and shifting too soon.

Generally, with most subcompact conversions, you can drive around town all 
day in second gear and never shift.  First gear can be frustrating because 
it "runs out of steam" so soon - if you start out in first you may have to 
shift within seconds.

You'll usually get into third gear only out on the highway, or if you need 
to accelerate rapidly or climb a hill faster.  Fourth and fifth are mostly 
for breaking the speed limit. <g>

Of course much depends on the combination of motor, controller, and drive 
ratios, but the above behaviour is typical of a series-motor conversion 
subcompact.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode?  See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me.  To 
send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On 10 Jun 2005 at 22:10, Stu or Jan wrote:

> If you put 50 Amps in for 10 seconds I assure you that you could not
> objectively measure the difference between that and nothing added.

This "discussion" is threatening to degenerate into a religious war.

It boils down to your objectives - and to some extent to personality!

If you have most of the hardware necessary to do regen in your drive system 
already, as is the case with an induction or sep-ex drive, adding regen is 
trivial and is probably worth the cost for the range extension of 10-20% 
(sometimes more in hilly areas).  It also improves driveability, and may 
improve battery cycle life (though that last is a bit controversial).  

If you have a bare-bones series motor and single-quadrant controller, adding 
regen is NOT trivial and probably not worth it.  If you want 10% more range, 
it makes more sense to pile in 10% more lead.  

It's all in what's important to you.  Crudely overgeneralizing:  

EV hobbyists who use the former kinds of drive tend to be more focused on 
efficiency and elegant design.  Regen looks beautiful to them.  Stopping the 
car without touching the brake pedal, and recovering even 50 Watt hours, 
makes them grin.

EV hobbyists who use the latter kind of drive tend to be more oriented 
toward accelerating and going fast.  Regen looks like a waste of time and 
effort to them.  Making their passengers' eyeballs pop makes them grin!


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode?  See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me.  To 
send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: Lithium safety?


> Philippe Borges wrote:
>
> > Please don't talk about thundersky batteries safety, they are not EV
> > batteries at the moment,
>
> Really? How come all these vehicles run?
> http://www.metricmind.com/images/liion_veh.gif

You are right they exist and even if i don't try them to affirm it, they
probably drive very well...first 100 discharges... :^(

In fact in our motorbike pack we hadn't so much discharge cycle before first
cell failure, about half that and one don't charge to 4,2V anymore.
we take care to use them at continous rating not max, never deep discharge
(ouch...maybe one time), charging slowwwwwwly...and a cell failed faster
than expected, thats a 10% pack failure near 50 cycles ouch...

An Ev battery is a multi competition champion:
light
tiny
powerfull
hard discharge resistant
heat/"cold" resistant/usable
deep cycle resistant
long cyclic to km life ( bigger range can give that even with only 500 cycle
capable batteries: 200 miles range is 100 000 miles batterie life )
"safe"
correct $/km life ratio

very hard to achieive, so you ar right compromise must be taken, TS chose to
make capacity cells first but its not enough for EV batteries.

and imho, next few years near, all batteries constructor, yes even Saft :^(
using lots of plastic case are going to see petrol price expansion problems.

lipoly is on the way (REALLY light, extremely powerfull =20C now, REALLY
space saver) though there must be lots of improvements on resistance and
even more on safety.

EV futur will probably be designed near china, probably because they are
already working hard on major part:  battery !
But i'm sorry victor, Thundersky though chinese IS NOT the good horse for
this race...keep your Kokam contact hot :^)

Philippe

Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
 http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hello Jude,

On the first design of my EV system, there was only one main contactor and one 
safety contactor on the same positive battery line.  The negative line went 
straight from the battery to main motor and to the DC/DC converter.

The converter was rated for 180 volts at 30 amps input. When charging, the 
charging voltage will go to 252 volts for a balance charge.  This finally cause 
arcing between some components in the converter. 

In my latest design, I am using a rotating alternator/inverter that is driven 
off the pilot shaft of the motor.  This unit is a large Delco unit that has 
four output settings of 13.5 to 15 volts settings at 135 amp.  The AC output is 
7000 watts at 120 VAC.

One advantage of using the accessories unit driving off the main motor is that 
when you let up on the power to the motor by coast down to a stop or downhill, 
the accessories are all running without any battery power.  It is like a 
mechanical REGEN that also acts like a compression of a engine.  My EV no 
longer gains speed in a down hill run of which I had to keep braking which has 
become dangerous on snow and icy roads. 

There is also a solid state 3000 watt 120 vac at 25 amp inverter I can switch 
over for more stable output.

All my heating which is convection and hot water and pumps are now 120 VAC.  
When I am plug in and/or charging the main pack, I can preheat the EV with 
commercial power which takes only about 5 minutes with under cab heaters.  The 
water heater is only used for defrosting which is also used only for about 1 
minute at a time.  

I used a transfer switch on dash, that is a double pole double throw switch 
with a off position.  This is a large rocker switch with a lot of space between 
the contacts.  This switch transfer the circuit from commercial power to the on 
board power.  

The pilot shaft of the motor also runs the power steering pump, A/C unit and 
vacuum pump which are all standard items you can get from any auto dealer or 
auto parts store.  I start up the motor just like you would start a engine 
which comes up to about 600 rpm.  The series DC motor stays at this rpm without 
over speeding if it does not have any load on it. It takes only 4 amps at 180 
volt to drive all these units at idle.

When I start driving off from the 600 rpm level, my motor starting ampere only 
goes to about 100 amps.  If I start out from 0 rpm the motor amperes surges to 
200 amps in first gear which has a overall ratio of 19.5 to 1.  

Starting out in 2nd gear which is 13.5 to 1 is about 300 amps and 3rd gear 
which is 5.57 to 1 is 400 amps which I set at the maximum limit.  The 5.57 
ratio or final drive of a transmission without using a clutch I experiment for 
about a month was not good for the commentators. 

I have deride a formula for calculation of the overall ratio's needed for best 
life of a DC motor with brushes. 

Weight of vehicle divided by a factor of 300 would be the overall ratio you 
would need to start moving a EV from stop with no idle control.

Example:  3000 lb EV /300 = 10:1 gear ratio in 1st gear.  If your first gear is 
a 2.2:1, then 10/2.2 = 4.54:1 differential gear or next closes ratio.

A 6000 lb EV like mine is which has range from 5500 lbs to 7850 lbs depending 
on battery types would be:  

6000 lb EV/300 = 20:1 gear ratio in 1st gear.
My first gear is a 3.5:1, then 20/3.5 = 5.7:1 ratio or I am using a 5.57:1 
which is the closes differential gear made.

Roland 




AC
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jude Anthony<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 
  Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 10:13 PM
  Subject: Re: Please Critique Wiring Diagram


  Thanks for the input, Roland.  I really appreciate it.

  >It is prefer to have two safety contactors between the battery pack and the 
controller circuit and other components, so only the battery charger and 
battery pack is isolated from all other components.  I had a DC/DC burn out 
when charger voltage was on it. 
  >  
  >
  Interesting.  I wanted to keep the DC/DC on with the charger to recharge 
  the accessory battery.  And I really like having the heater/AC available 
  while I'm plugged in.  If I'm going to burn converters, I can definitely 
  take them off the loop; but is it really necessary to take the air 
  conditioning motor off the charging loop?

  >There should be fuses before each contactor for every accessory components.
  >  
  >
  Noted.  I assume the idea is that if the accessory shorts, the fuse 
  takes it offline.

  >No amp and volt indicators circuits are shown, when installing any 
indications and shunts, be sure to fuse every instrument tap off from the main 
battery pack. 
  >  
  >
  I'll put in ratings tomorrow.  The controller will be a Curtis 1231C, 
  until I can afford a Zilla.  I'll put in Zilla-appropriate fuses, so I 
  don't have to upgrade them when I upgrade the controller.

  I'll add the e-meter wiring, too.

  >Some controllers will required separated control power from either 12 VDC or 
other which is also control by on dash control switches or the ignition switch. 
  >  
  >
  More lines to draw.  Sheesh, this is turning into a spider web!

  >If the the fuel door is the charger AC or DC entry point, it is prefer to 
have the relay in the normally close position (power off) while the charging 
plug is unplug and the door is close.  The relay is energized only when you are 
charging. The way you have it shown, the ignition switch would have to be on 
all the time while you are charging. 
  >  
  >
  Good point.  I'll fix that.

  >There is no fan circuit, only a switch.  Sometime we add the heater 
thermostat in this circuit. 
  >  
  >
  Hmm?  I didn't understand this.  I've drawn a fan switch; it's wired in 
  series with the heater switch, so the fan must be on before the heater 
  can be activated. 

  >In the heater circuit, you could add a thermostat right after the heat 
switch, also a hi-limit temperature switch which is a thermo disk that is 
install in the heater box that detects over temperature.
  >  
  >
  Maybe this is the disconnect: that heater is for *me*, not the 
  batteries.  A thermostat would still be a neat idea, though.

  >In stead of connecting from point to point, meaning connecting directly from 
one component to the other, you could connect all the components to a large 
terminal strip and cross connect between the components at the terminal strip.  
Leave terminal spaces between each component circuit, so you can add or 
modified the circuits as need.  You can tap off each of these circuit points to 
a LED indicator panel which will indicated the circuit paths and will ease on 
board trouble shooting.  Could add bypass circuits so you can fix a problem 
while you are moving with your EV.
  >  
  >
  I'll experiment with this a bit.

  Thanks again.

  Jude

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
From: RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Miles Automotive Group :: Partners in China

From:
http://www.milesautomotive.com
(It's a little hard to find, but slide your cursor to the left hand side,
and the drop down menu will appear. But check out the pictures... cute car.
Makes me wish the Toyota Scion xB was an EV... RC)

ZX 40
Neighborhood Electric Vehicle
Price : $11,850
Available Now
40+ miles per charge
25 miles per hour

ZX 90
All Electric City Car
Available Mar 2007
70+ miles per charge
50 miles per hour

XS 200
All Electric Highway Car
Available Sept 2007
200 miles per charge
Highway Speed

In partnership with China's leading electric vehicle laboratory, The Miles
Automotive Group is dedicated to developing zero-emissions and clean air
vehicles for North America's fleet managers.

Our Partners in China

- World's leading producer of computer and cell phone batteries
- At forefront of advanced battery technology for automobiles
- Current regulations exceed U.S. requirements for vehicle emissions on a
car by car basis
- On target to take the lead in electric and hybrid automobile production
- 2008 Beijing "Green Olympics" leading innovation in AFV's

Our research, development, and production partners in China have a world
wide reputation for engineering proficiency, quality and reliability.

TIANJIN QINGYUAN ELECTRIC VEHICLE COMPANY
Leading Electric Drive Manufacturer of China

The Miles Automotive Group Ltd
A Division of S. Shamash and Sons (Est. 1873)

info@ milesautomotive.com
att: Miles Rubin

New York
42 West 39th Street
New York, New York 10018

Los Angeles
24955 Pacific Coast Highway, Suite B201
Malibu, California 90265
866-742-6274 Fax: 310-456-6238





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


ET List
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com

To view ET List message archive go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ETList/messages

--- End Message ---

Reply via email to