EV Digest 4431
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Regen for **free** was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) BB600 discharge test
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RX-7 update, was Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Watt hours for EVs
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac welders in series/parallel
by "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Three electric vehicles from China
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac welders in series/parallel
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) 500V prescaler question - e-meter blowup avoidance
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac welders in
series/parallel
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac welders in series/parallel
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Aerobatteries Arrive for White Zombie
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Large Diodes for DIY welders or EV chargers?
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Power distribution, was: RE: You need a welder
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Please Critique Wiring Diagram
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) KillaCyle in American Airlines Magazine
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) How have people connected their charger?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Alternator VS DC converter
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Alternator VS DC converter
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AC Drives - adapters for AC motors
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
>> If you put 50 Amps in for 10 seconds I assure you that you could not
>> objectively measure the difference between that and nothing added.
Even a brief spike of energy into a lead-acid pack goes a longer way toward
keeping the Peukert beast under control than the amp-hr numbers would have you
believe. May not be as compelling in other chemistries, though.
>This "discussion" is threatening to degenerate into a religious war.
It *does* seem "Stu or Jan" has it in for regen! That's too bad, because it is
standard on every AC or SepEx system, as well as a lot of controllers specific
for PM motors.
And, David, you have this right: adding regen into a series setup seems more an
exercise in "See, I made it work!" than "I need to have it!". But that is also
why a lot of people get into EVs (well, the engineers, at least), and every
commercial EV that can go on the freeway already has/had regen, so why fight a
good thing? OK, David, I won't belabor it any more...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After a couple of cycles on the motorcycle (about 30 miles of riding) I
discharge tested my 44 cells. I only had 2 cells that wouldn't make at
least 40 ahrs at a 60 amp discharge. I've replaced those two cells, and I
now expect a solid 15 to 20 mile range. This is great news, as these
batteries are rated at 30 ahr at the C1 rate. I had heard that they often
will do 40ahr, but it's nice to see it for myself.
I'm still in the running for making the ride to Waylands house to join in on
the EV fun (17 miles including up to 11 frwy). I expect to give it a try
sometime in the near future, unfortunately I am flying out of town tomorrow
morning, so I won't make it for that EVent. One of the nice things about
the bike is that if I come a mile or 2 short, it's not a huge deal to push
it the rest of the way, so I don't mind pushing the limits. This also
should be plenty of juice for getting me to PIR to watch White Zombie hit
the track again this season, although unlike last year, this year I will
have to mooch a charge while I am there. I loved the 30 - 40 mile range I
had with the Saft STM100's, but at 228 lbs the pack was too heavy and the
modules were bulky and hard to get mounted. This pack weighs in at a svelte
154 lbs and fits on the bike much better. It looks like it is going to be
another fun riding season.
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
When I jump into the gas S10 (which is so infrequent now I keep a battery
charger on the starting battery), I slam myself against the seat-belt for
the first few stops! My poor-man's regen alternator just isn't the same as
motor regen braking, but it does help.
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:33:14 -0400
>From: Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> When you replace the original ICE drive's engine braking with at least
>> regenerative or dynamic release braking, it makes all the difference in the
>> world.
>
>I'd have to agree here. With the regen braking in the Prizm, the car
>stops very very well. With only the main brakes it will still stop, but
>it feels a lot more "heavy". I've driven a few other conversions, and
>they feel more heavy on the brakes.
>
>Everyone who has driven my Prizm thinks it drives like a "normal" car.
>It does the things you would expect (the regen is even tapered on decel
>to give you that "engine breaking" feeling going downhill) and it feels
>like a very smooth automatic. Add the power steering, low voltage cutout
>and AC and anyone can drive it.
>
>Chris
>
>
>>
>> I realize that my opinion in this matter isn't universal, but I don't think
>> that series motors are really the ideal choice for a road EV. It's partly
>> because regen is so difficult with them, and partly because of the way
>>their
>> torque curve works. I think that a Sep-Ex DC or induction AC motor (with
>> the right controller and regen) produces significantly better driveability.
>>
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EV List Assistant Administrator
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
>> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
>> send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
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>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David, Steve, and All,
Since my RX-7 post generated some questions, I should try and esplain it
better:
>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:37:11 -0700 (PDT)
>From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Are you sure the coupler is bad? Did you check the motor does not
>vibrate without the flywheel? Can you reattach the flywheel 180
>degrees turned (and others) and check runout again? You might be able
>to put the motor with the coupler on a lathe and true it up (credit
>to Steve Clunn for that idea).
When you spin the motor without the flywheel, yes you will have less
vibration, but since you need the flywheel AND clutch/pressure plate, you
need to spin the whole package. The RX-7 flywheel mounts on a
taper-lock/keyed engine crank, so it can't be rotated 180 degrees, and
since the run-out is at the hub, it wouldn't help to rotate the flywheel.
The original crank was bored out to fit over the motor shaft, so I can't
true it up. After my original post to the list, I noticed that the run-out
of the hub wasn't as bad as the flywheel, so I plan to recheck the flywheel
to make sure it's taper is correct when I reinstall it.
>From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 22:14:54 -0500
>
>so the car was working fine , just needed a clutch.
>
>My posrche is around that , worst one I ever did. at 120 v it worked fine
>but when I went to 240 I felt a vibration at the higher rpm , ( after being
>at 120v for so long the sound of a 9" singing along at that new rpm l put a
>new ev grin on my face. )
>
>I one time found that using a different key helped , but that was a taper
>luck.
>
>did you say what voltage your running . ? There's a few different ways you
>could go , If it work for a few years and the reason you took it apart was
>not because of a vibration , just put it back and go on enjoying it , You
>can try the usual tricks to see if you can get it closer the .008 but as it
>worked before it should work again.
Per my tag line, I'm running a 192V pack of Optima YT's. When I went from
the original 108V pack of floodies and Cursit 1221B, to a 144V pack of
floodies and a 1231C, I had to put torque rods on the bell housing after
slamming the shifter into the body on the first stab of the go-pedal. The
next upgrade was the YT's and DCP controller, until my son damaged the
tranny at the dragstrip, so we've been driving around with third gear and
reverse only (previous post). The car has been down with a dead T-Rex
(again, previous post, driving too slowly up a mountain road in third
gear), and now that I have a Z1K Zilla, I decided to replace the clutch,
which would let go under very light acceleration (like 200 battery amps).
We've had serious traction problems with street tires, but I didn't want to
install better rubber until I checked out the adapter/coupler. For high
torque/RPM, a taper-lock hub is better than just a keyed hub, so we'll run
it with street rubber until I can upgrade. I'd like to get my daughter down
to the dragstrip when I get it back together, and Bill Dube' said he wanted
to play with the Killicycle, so we should have some fun this season as long
as the current drive-train stays together!
Down the road I'm thinking about a small-block chevy adapter/coupler (which
I also put in the S10), in a vehicle that isn't rusted out. And maybe a
two-speed powerglide like the Maniac Mazda uses, and the 3300 pound nine
incher under our old Bronco, but wishing don't make it so, and at the
moment my daughter just needs basic transportation so she isn't driving
mom's new Prius all the time. After all, statistically teenagers will wreck
a car between the ages of 16 and 18, and denting the rust-bucket RX-7
wouldn't cause any tears to flow from me!
Thanks,
BB
>--- "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:16:19 -0600
>
>I recently pulled the motor/transmission out of the RX-7 to replace a
>badly worn clutch (my son and I have had way too much fun with the car!).
>Someone else had done this conversion originally, so I didn't know what
>type of motor adapter/coupler I would find. Not only is the adappter a bit
>of a cludge, but the coupler is not a taper-lock. And after measuring the
>flywheel with a dial indicator, I found it to have a run-out of 0.008". I
>spun the motor up with a 12V battery and it indeed has a bad vibration
>from the run-out. After removing the flywheel (with a 2 1/8" socket!),
>it's the coupler that is bad. We've been looking around for another RX-7
>glider to convert, as ours has a lot of body rust/bondo, but since we now
>need a new coupler, we might start looking for a different make/model.
>Anyway, just to get the car back on the road for my daughter (she just got
>her driver's license), I was tempted to mount the clutch disc to the
>flywheel, but I went ahead and bought a cheap clutch pack to retain that
>last-ditch emergency stopping ability. Sure, if you have your wits about
>you just turn off the key and the contactors will drop out, or in our case
>pull the emergency cable which switches off the breaker on the control
>board, but in a panic stop when there is something directly in front of
>you, I tend to push both the brake and clutch pedal down at the same time!
>
>Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
>Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
>http://www.devc.org/
>Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
>Racing Association:
>http://www.nedra.com/
>Lyons, CO
>1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
>1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill and All,
I'm probably a "worst case" example, because I'm driving a 5000 pound lead
brick around (1700 pound pack), have never had the alignment checked, have
used junk-yard tires, and I sometimes pull trailers. Although I do run the
tires at 45 PSI, so they are as hard as?...teak wood! Anyway, since
installing the current pack in October of '03 (two winters of using ceramic
heater, and with arthritis I use the heat liberally!), and with 17,248
miles, I've averaged 573 watthours per mile. I have a dedicated
kilowatthour meter, so this is "at the plug". At $0.08 per kilowatthour,
it's still half the price of what I would have to pay for gasoline.
Although the money saved on gas wouldn't buy another pack unless I got 40k
miles out of this one (will only get about 20k), I'm not paying for oil
changes, belt(s), new muffler(s), tune-up(s), alternator(s), emission
tests, O2 sensor(s), engine oil seals, intake manifold gaskets, heater
core(s), how about an engine rebuild 'cause GM builds junk... This reminds
me, I need to dump our gas S10 before something else fails on it! This is
quickly becoming another thread and is getting political, so I'll stop
venting now!
Hope this helps,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:54:59 -0700
>From: William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Hi Folks,
> One of the Faculty at the Physics dept. here in Reno teaches an
>engineering physics class and we were trying to get some figures for
>various EVs to compare the energy cost to ICE vehicles. If I could boil
>it down to watts per mile including charging loss that would be great.
>Does anyone have data for a few different types of on road BEVs,
>manufactured / conversions , dc, ac, regen
>etc.? Thank you Bill Brinsmead
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Connecting 2-100 VAC welders in series across a 220VAC line and the welding
leads in parallel.
I have a Merlin 150 110VAC welder that I picked up for about $30.
For a 110V welder, this brand appears top drawer.
If I could get another for the same price, and I could parallel them,
not only would I have the current capacity of the Miller or Lincoln 225Amp
buzz boxes, I would
also have the portability of a lightweight pair of 110 welders, I could
use them in places where 220V is not convenient.
You could use 2 - 110VAC receptacles from different breakers.
A 'parallel' receptacle box could be built for a few bucks to make the
parallel connections a plug-it-in operation.
You could store them on a shelf and save scarce shop floor space.
Some negative thoughts:
Duty cycle most likely would not be as robust as with a Miller or a Lincoln.
What if their output voltages were different?
You could also convert them both to DC and diode isolate them.
How to check that the phases are correct?
Does this basic idea have some merit?
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is great!
Does anybody have any idea how much the ZX 90 and XS 200 is going to cost?
Also, has anybody seen/investigated this?
http://www.motorfactories.com/prd-ev.html
Can you really buy these? Has anybody talked to motor factories about getting
one of these EVs? Why is the eb07 so ugly? :)
I also wonder if one of the miles automotive cars is the "Happy Messenger"?
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/06/china_ev_compan.html
This is very exciting, I wonder if we will soon be seeing the "Made in China"
sticker on a percentage of our domestic auto fleet due to low cost/high
quality EVs shipped over?
Thanks!
On Sat, Jun 11, 2005 at 07:13:44AM -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> From: RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Miles Automotive Group :: Partners in China
>
> From:
> http://www.milesautomotive.com
> (It's a little hard to find, but slide your cursor to the left hand side,
> and the drop down menu will appear. But check out the pictures... cute car.
> Makes me wish the Toyota Scion xB was an EV... RC)
>
> ZX 40
> Neighborhood Electric Vehicle
> Price : $11,850
> Available Now
> 40+ miles per charge
> 25 miles per hour
>
> ZX 90
> All Electric City Car
> Available Mar 2007
> 70+ miles per charge
> 50 miles per hour
>
> XS 200
> All Electric Highway Car
> Available Sept 2007
> 200 miles per charge
> Highway Speed
>
> In partnership with China's leading electric vehicle laboratory, The Miles
> Automotive Group is dedicated to developing zero-emissions and clean air
> vehicles for North America's fleet managers.
>
> Our Partners in China
>
> - World's leading producer of computer and cell phone batteries
> - At forefront of advanced battery technology for automobiles
> - Current regulations exceed U.S. requirements for vehicle emissions on a
> car by car basis
> - On target to take the lead in electric and hybrid automobile production
> - 2008 Beijing "Green Olympics" leading innovation in AFV's
>
> Our research, development, and production partners in China have a world
> wide reputation for engineering proficiency, quality and reliability.
>
> TIANJIN QINGYUAN ELECTRIC VEHICLE COMPANY
> Leading Electric Drive Manufacturer of China
>
> The Miles Automotive Group Ltd
> A Division of S. Shamash and Sons (Est. 1873)
>
> info@ milesautomotive.com
> att: Miles Rubin
>
> New York
> 42 West 39th Street
> New York, New York 10018
>
> Los Angeles
> 24955 Pacific Coast Highway, Suite B201
> Malibu, California 90265
> 866-742-6274 Fax: 310-456-6238
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> ET List
> http://www.electrifyingtimes.com
>
> To view ET List message archive go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ETList/messages
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any 220V plug has 2 phases that are 180 degrees out of sync. Having two
110 outlets from different breakers won't ensure that the phasing is
correct. It has to be from two breakers on opposite sides of the box.
To truly check the box output phasing, you'd need an O-scope of some sort.
Having said that, I don't recommend attempting this, primarily because
of safety concerns, and the "black box" nature of the units. I'd be
more comfortable simply using 2+ beefy transformers from old microwaves,
as some people on "da intarweb" have done.
Stu and Jan wrote:
Connecting 2-100 VAC welders in series across a 220VAC line and the welding
leads in parallel.
I have a Merlin 150 110VAC welder that I picked up for about $30.
For a 110V welder, this brand appears top drawer.
If I could get another for the same price, and I could parallel them,
not only would I have the current capacity of the Miller or Lincoln 225Amp
buzz boxes, I would
also have the portability of a lightweight pair of 110 welders, I could
use them in places where 220V is not convenient.
You could use 2 - 110VAC receptacles from different breakers.
A 'parallel' receptacle box could be built for a few bucks to make the
parallel connections a plug-it-in operation.
You could store them on a shelf and save scarce shop floor space.
Some negative thoughts:
Duty cycle most likely would not be as robust as with a Miller or a Lincoln.
What if their output voltages were different?
You could also convert them both to DC and diode isolate them.
How to check that the phases are correct?
Does this basic idea have some merit?
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
I'm in the process of hooking up my e-meter. I have the prescaler
hooked up, and meaured the output voltage - before hooking it up to the
e-meter. My 144V pack is resting around 157V. The 0-500V prescaler was
showing 54V on the output. I was expecting around 15V.
Don Cameron had something similar going on awhile back. I've e-mailed
him personally to find out what he came up with, but wanted to get this
on the list as well. Anyone else out there with an e-meter willing to
go disconnect the prescaler and measure the open circuit output voltage
of the prescaler? Please specify the pack voltage and the measured
output voltage.
E-meters are too expensive to blow up on connection. Maybe we can get
some helpful information out there to avoid blowups for all the other
poor-cash-strapped EV converters :)
Thanks,
Ryan
P.S. You wouldn't mind carbon copying (CC) me if you reply with info?
I'm on digest, and would like to get this resolved this afternoon.
Thanks again.
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:54 PM 11/06/05 -0400, BoyntonStu wrote:
Connecting 2-100 VAC welders in series across a 220VAC line and the welding
leads in parallel.
I have a Merlin 150 110VAC welder that I picked up for about $30.
Second-hand presumably? I guess the '150' is the maximum amps the unit can
put out. Have a close look on the nameplate for something like Duty cycle
80A=100%, 125A 60%, 150A 25%. This will give you the true output current
capacity and allow you to compare other machines (when you know their 100%
duty cycle rating). What does the plate say about duty cycle?
Is it a variable-choke (variable reluctance) 'buzz-box' welder? (Has a
handle you pull in /out and lock, or a wind-around handle. Not an
electronic control or high/low switch). If so you may have a chance of
paralelling successfully.
If I could get another for the same price, and I could parallel them,
not only would I have the current capacity of the Miller or Lincoln 225Amp
buzz boxes, I would
also have the portability of a lightweight pair of 110 welders, I could
use them in places where 220V is not convenient.
Possibly, but I can see the cost of making the system 'fool-proof' ending
up costing more than other means.
You could use 2 - 110VAC receptacles from different breakers.
If they are in-phase or 180 degrees out of phase. So you would need means
to check for phase relationship and connect them in accordance to that
relationship. So whoever is connecting needs to know what is needed, AND
the system needs to be fail-safe if one supply drops out. But if you have
paralell connected the outputs, and you plug in ONE of the welders and turn
it on, you will have 110 (or whatever) volts on the plug pins of the other
welder.
A 'parallel' receptacle box could be built for a few bucks to make the
parallel connections a plug-it-in operation.
A what for how much? The box would ideally auto-detect phase relationship
and pull in contactors to connect the second outlet in a correct phase
relationship to the first. AND fail-safe detect and shut off on incorrect
supply. But what then if they are at 120 degrees out of phase (split off
three phase)? how do you intend coping with that? How are you going to make
sure that the box will only energise the welders when both are plugged in
(to avoid the safety issue above)?
You could store them on a shelf and save scarce shop floor space.
Unless they are particularly low duty-cycle you would not want to put them
higher than bench height or you are risking your back. So you could build a
small hoist to get it/them up on a higher shelf (making sure it is strong
enough). But then you have a hoist, so it doesn't matter that it is a
Lincoln/etc 'real' welder.
Some negative thoughts:
Duty cycle most likely would not be as robust as with a Miller or a Lincoln.
Nameplates would tell.
What if their output voltages were different?
Then they would likely 'fight' each other, to the detriment of available
weld power.
You could also convert them both to DC and diode isolate them.
True, add two 150A full-wave rectifiers with suppressors, two suitable
chokes and you would have a DC welding source. If I had all the bits in the
junk pile I might be tempted build something like this (except these bits
could probably be put to better use). It may even not matter then that the
AC sources may not be the same phase. It would get around the issue of
powering up the other welder from the wrong side. Since 'buzz-box' welders
are current-source welders, you could put AC amp meters in both outputs,
and keep an eye on them to make sure that the duty cycle of each half is
not exceeded.
Or for not much more money than all this, buy a voltage-detecting inverter
welder that will run across a wide range of AC input voltages, even DC
input, and give 130A DC at 100% duty cycle.
How to check that the phases are correct?
With a voltmeter, check that the two neutrals have no voltage relative to
each other (less than half a volt should be safe). Check the voltage of
each supply relative to its' own neutral, check that the voltage is the
same to the 'other' neutral, check that the voltage across the two lines is
double what the individual voltages are (for 180 degrees out-of phase) or
has no voltage (for in-phase).
Does this basic idea have some merit?
Well, if I was looking for a buzz-box welder in your situation, I'd look
for a second-hand commercial machine that can run from multiple voltages.
Here in Australia, 'stick' welders have been made with taps for 240/415/480
volts - 240 line to neutral, 415 line-to-line 2 phases from three, 480
line-to-line rural two-phase 180 degree phase-shift.
It seems to me that like many ideas that seem simple, if it is that simple,
why is no-one else doing it?
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen wrote:
"Any 220V plug has 2 phases that are 180 degrees out of sync"
This confuses me. If I took two 110V circuits from either side of the box,
they add up to give me 220VAC (proven by use many times). If the two sides
were out of phase by 180 degrees would not it cancel out?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: June 11, 2005 12:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac welders in
series/parallel
Any 220V plug has 2 phases that are 180 degrees out of sync. Having two 110
outlets from different breakers won't ensure that the phasing is correct.
It has to be from two breakers on opposite sides of the box.
To truly check the box output phasing, you'd need an O-scope of some sort.
Having said that, I don't recommend attempting this, primarily because of
safety concerns, and the "black box" nature of the units. I'd be more
comfortable simply using 2+ beefy transformers from old microwaves, as some
people on "da intarweb" have done.
Stu and Jan wrote:
>Connecting 2-100 VAC welders in series across a 220VAC line and the
>welding leads in parallel.
>
>
>
>I have a Merlin 150 110VAC welder that I picked up for about $30.
>
>For a 110V welder, this brand appears top drawer.
>
>If I could get another for the same price, and I could parallel them,
>not only would I have the current capacity of the Miller or Lincoln
>225Amp buzz boxes, I would also have the portability of a lightweight
>pair of 110 welders, I could use them in places where 220V is not
>convenient.
>
>You could use 2 - 110VAC receptacles from different breakers.
>A 'parallel' receptacle box could be built for a few bucks to make the
>parallel connections a plug-it-in operation.
>You could store them on a shelf and save scarce shop floor space.
>
>Some negative thoughts:
>
>Duty cycle most likely would not be as robust as with a Miller or a
Lincoln.
>
>What if their output voltages were different?
>
>You could also convert them both to DC and diode isolate them.
>
>How to check that the phases are correct?
>
>Does this basic idea have some merit?
>
>BoyntonStu
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How much do these Hawker Aerobatterys cost? DC.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: Aerobatteries Arrive for White Zombie
Hello to All,
Well, the pieces to this year's Zombie puzzle are all falling into place
it seems. Barring
any unexpected setbacks, the latest version of White Zombie should be at
the track in the
next two to three weeks. It should weigh about 2250 lbs. and with 336V of
29 ahr Hawker
Aerobatteries, it will make some serious hp. My guess, is that at the
switch-over to hyper
speed, the sagged pack will give about 364 kw of power or about 488 hp of
electrical
energy! The new Siamese 8 motor should make 300 hp with this kind of power
input. The
Aerobatteries are a version of the military spec Hawkers and are a cut
above the already
stout regular Hawkers. The models I'm using are rated at 29 ahrs c20 and
26 ahrs c6, weigh
24 lbs. each, and can make as high as 2400 amps in the short circuit test.
I expect that
sagged down to 6.5V per module, they'll make 2000+ amps stressed under my
right foot! The
28 module pack for White Zombie will weigh 672 lbs., a healthy drop of 288
lbs. compared
to the 288V stack of Orbitals that were in the car, and 128 lbs. less than
the 240V
Orbital powered version that ran the 12.99 @ 101 mph run. Minus weight
shaved in other
areas, this latest 336V version will weigh about 200 lbs. less over the
240V version.
I was in between service calls when my personal cell phone range...it was
my friend Adam
at Aerobatteries, L. P. in Texas telling me that Yellow Freight had
notified them my 30
brand new Aerobatteries were at their warehouse in Portland and that they
were planning on
a Sunday drop-off of the batteries at my house. Can you say 'excited'? I
was about 5 miles
from the warehouse at the time of the call, and, was even heading that
direction on the
way back to the shop. A quick call to Jenny at Yellow Freight confirmed
the arrival of my
batteries, and she told me it was absolutely no problem for me to stop by
and pick them
up.
I got to Yellow Freight, checked in at the security guard shack, then
proceeded to the
customer will call warehouse. It was all so easy. After checking in at the
desk and
signing off on paperwork, they told me to wait by my service truck as the
forklift driver
would bring the pallet out to me...cool. The next thing that happened, is
one of those
weirdo coincidences that often find their way into my Wayland adventure
stories :-) Tell
me, what are the odds of this....here comes one of perhaps 30 forklift
drivers at the huge
yellow freight complex I'm at, wearing a Hawker Odyssey hat! As Pat and
his Toyota
forklift approached my service truck, he says to me, "Hey, you're not the
usual guy that
picks up his Hawkers here...what are you going to do with 30 of these
super batteries?"
Seems Pat was well versed in all things 'Hawker'. We had a great
conversation about the
incredibly powerful Hawkers, EVs, EV drag racing car audio....you know,
all the things
Plasma Boy gets pumped up over. I left with my new bunch of Hawkers still
grinning over
the forklift guy wearing a Hawker hat.
I want to thank Aerobatteries L. P. and Hawker for their support of my EV
racing.
Recently,
there was some discussion about where one could buy quality EV batteries
over the internet
and such. Aerobatteries L. P. in Tyler, Texas is a Hawker Odyssey dealer
that offers free
shipping. They are very good people that will treat you fairly. They can
be reached at
(903) 592-2176, and found on the internet at <http://aerobatteries.com/>
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a small quantity of NOS very large diodes that I would let go for $15
Ea + shipping. (I think they are 600V, 900A or vice versa). Contact me OL if
you want a pic and part #. I have googled the PN and I can't find the specs
but I am sure one of you guys out there would have better luck. I also have
some large fan cooled 3 phase rectifier banks out of industrial welders that
are going fairly reasonable. And of course lots of large inductors and
variacs.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:39 PM 11/06/05 -0700, Don wrote:
Eric Poulsen wrote:
"Any 220V plug has 2 phases that are 180 degrees out of sync"
This confuses me. If I took two 110V circuits from either side of the box,
they add up to give me 220VAC (proven by use many times). If the two sides
were out of phase by 180 degrees would not it cancel out?
Hi Don (and all)
"mains" power comes in a few basic ways.
Here in Australia, we have 240VAC (nominal) single phase, MEN
(multiple-earthe[ed] neutral). This is distributed as 3-phase here (see
below), and, I believe, the same system (MEN) as the commonly used American
115(etc) voltage supply. The line voltage, commonly called "active", is at
the nominal voltage relative to the neutral. Neutral is earthed at multiple
points - power transformer, poles and at the domestic meter board, before
the ECCB/ELCB/RCD (choose your terminology, but commonly earth-leakage
circuit breaker). I know from what people have reported in the past on this
list that in parts of the USA the split of the three phase can be at a
suburb-by-suburb basis on the high-voltage (22kV/etc) distribution, making
it almost impossible to get 3-phase domestic supply. Since there is only
one phase being distributed, the only higher-voltage option is to
center-tap the transformer for a second supply at 180 degree phase shift.
Rural power (here) can be single-phase distribution (typically 10/11kV or
22kV), but once brought down to domestic voltages appears across two phase
supplies at 180-degree phase shift from each other out of the transformer,
ie, the center of the transformer is the neutral. This is uncommon here,
but is what you are being supplied with for 220V on a 110V system. Here it
gives 480V on a 240V system - allows for heavy loads such as welders to run
at reduced currents. The other reason is that if you have a heavy neutral
load, the house earth can be dragged away from the transformer earth,
causing electrolytic corrosion of the earth stakes. If there was no phase
shift, the voltage that you measure between the two active wires would be
zero - if you are fully isolated, you could hold both wires and not be
electrocuted.
Normal residential supply here is via 3-phase distribution, with every
third house on the same phase. This is done to average balance the supply
loading. We have 3-phase supply at my house, 3 sets of 240V at 120degree
phase shift to one another, and 415V nominal between phases, at 80A per
phase [can you say "fast charging" ;^) ].
Hope this helps
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For maximum life you should let the battery exercise once in a while. Just
leave the lights on without the DC to DC on and let it discharge then
recharge it. Honda Insights are fed a constant voltage by their DC to DC
and this routine helps their SLI battery last longer.
Although 13.71 volts (typical) is too low for cycle charging, according to
the manufacturer it is fine for standby charging (13.5-13.8V). Will this
constant voltage (rather than a cycle voltage) spell an early death to the
little AGM accessory battery? I don not think so. It seems to be
adequately charged all the time.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
Hello Jude,
On the first design of my EV system, there was only one main contactor and one
safety contactor on the same positive battery line. The negative line went
straight from the battery to main motor and to the DC/DC converter.
The converter was rated for 180 volts at 30 amps input. When charging, the
charging voltage will go to 252 volts for a balance charge. This finally cause
arcing between some components in the converter.
I've got two contactors, one on either side of the motor/controller.
Still, I suppose I could see high charging voltages with my wiring
setup; my Todd DC/DC will probably complain and die. I'll have to check
through posts to see if there are any better converters.
When you said I needed a fuse 'before' each contactor, were you thinking
of the 12V side, the 144V side, or both? And is there any real meaning
to 'before' in the electrical sense, or should I just wire a fuse nearby?
In my latest design, I am using a rotating alternator/inverter that is driven
off the pilot shaft of the motor. This unit is a large Delco unit that has
four output settings of 13.5 to 15 volts settings at 135 amp. The AC output is
7000 watts at 120 VAC.
One advantage of using the accessories unit driving off the main motor is that when you let up on the power to the motor by coast down to a stop or downhill, the accessories are all running without any battery power. It is like a mechanical REGEN that also acts like a compression of a engine. My EV no longer gains speed in a down hill run of which I had to keep braking which has become dangerous on snow and icy roads.
In Orlando, I pretty much have to run the A/C all the time. Especially
in the summer. I've heard too many stories about over-revving the ADCs,
so I don't want to sit at the light in neutral, gunning the engine.
That's annoying, anyway. I decided to go with a separate accessory
motor instead.
Jude
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apparently, there is an article about the KillaCycle in the in-flight
magazine for American Airlines. I don't have a copy and I have not seen the
article. If any has the opportunity, snag me a copy for my scrap book.
Thanks in advance,
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
Need to make the decision about where and how to connect the charger. It is
an on-board transformer/rectifier charger with a bit of homebrew control.
The traction pack has main fuses in B+ and B-, followed up with contactor
or relay pairs (B+ and B-) for traction, heater, DC/DC and vacuum pump.
The intent at this time is to put a fuse (or a fuse pair B+ and B-) close
up to the pack isolation fuses. Double-insulated 10mm2 welding-type flex
back to the rectifier, and a fuse betwen the transformer and the rectifier.
I have an inductor that I think would be advisable to use, so that would go
close after the rectifier, between the rectifier and the fuses.
Is this a reasonable strategy?
Can anyone see a problem with it?
How have people connected their on-board charger?
Thanks
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there any reason a dc to dc converter would be better than just using an
alternator off the opposite end of a traction motor?
My Saab conversion will use an automatic transmission, (with lockup torque
converter) requiring a "minimum" RPM anyway. It seems to me that the
alternator is more efficient than converting from the traction batteries,
and most of the converters I am seeing don't have a lot of current capacity.
In my case I have to use the shaft already for the PS pump.
Opinions appreciated.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there any reason a dc to dc converter would be better than just using an
alternator off the opposite end of a traction motor?
My Saab conversion will use an automatic transmission, (with lockup torque
converter) requiring a "minimum" RPM anyway. It seems to me that the
alternator is more efficient than converting from the traction batteries,
and most of the converters I am seeing don't have a lot of current
capacity. In my case I have to use the shaft already for the PS pump.
I don't have any hard numbers, but my guess would be that an alternator is
less efficient than a DC-DC converter. With an alternator, you have losses
from three sources:
1. The traction motor ( usually 85-90 %)
2. the losses in the drive system ( usually a v-belt, and these generally
have poor efficiency at low load - a lot of friction and heat in the belt
and sheaves)
3. Losses in the alternator itself.,
By using a DC-DCm you just have the losses in the converter itself.
Anyone have real, measured numbers for these different types of losses?
Also, I bet that the alternator ( with brackets and belt) would weight more
than the DC-DC) and be not as easy to mount. After all, you can put the
DC-DC anywhere that is convenient.
On the plus side for the alternator - they are generally very reliable, and
you can probably find a good used one cheap.
Phil
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AC Drives - adapters for AC motors
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:12:01 -0700
Philip Marino wrote:
With a keyed shaft motor ( like the ADCs) , someone with limited machining
skills ( like me) and with access to a working mill and lathe can make a
very serviceable adapter for only the cost of the materials.
I hear you Phil, but you're describing *your* limitations.
I agree. I am describing my own limitations. But, there are probably
other do-it-yourself converters who, like me, don't have the equipment and
skills to machine metric splines, and, also like me, have limited funds.
They could, as you suggest, buy a spline-to keyed-shaft adapter, but that's
pretty expensive. In my case the total parts and materials cost for the
adapter would be about $400 (instead of the $100 it cost me for a keyed
motor adapter).
AC systems have many advantages - if I could afford it, I would just buy a
complete AC system. But, for people in my situation - limited money and
limited machining equipment - using a splined motor would be a problem.
Phil
AS I said, splines are more difficult than keyed shaft, no doubt.
It jsu one more challenge in hundreds for building an EV.
Unfortunately this is all I can get for given power.
If you have limited skills, pay more and get keyed Siemens
motor: http://www.metricmind.com/images/5135shaft.jpg -
no different than ADC motors.
Or pre-made adapter: http://www.metricmind.com/images/hub1.jpg
I don't see a show stopper here.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- End Message ---
