EV Digest 4437
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Welding, schmelding
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) AeroVironment motor
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Regen issues
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) BLDC motors
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: BLDC motors
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Regen issues
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) How to calculate regen value (was 'Instant' Hybrid idea)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: How to calculate regen value (was 'Instant' Hybrid idea)
by "Ed Koffeman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: An EVentful Weekend (long & nontechnical)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: How to calculate regen value (was 'Instant' Hybrid idea)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: How to calculate regen value (was 'Instant' Hybrid idea)
by "Ed Koffeman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
by D B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
John hosted a fun and informative EV gathering at his place this last
Sunday.
Little did he know when I arrived from Corvallis that I had brought a
machine that would put him in his rightful place. The drag strip was a
little shorter than we wanted, but we went full-on anyway. When the smoke
cleared, all I could see in my rear view mirror was John struggling
desperately to stay within a furlong of me as I crossed the finish line.
Gloatingly,
Richard not-a-newbie-anymore Rau
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, how about an old "Brat"? They look light and I'm pretty sure they're
4wd.
> BoyntonStu said:
>
> If the 1995 Subaru Impreza weighed 1,620lb as a 1990 Geo Metro instead of
> its 2,605lb, I would not think twice. (I wonder what the lightest 4WD car
> is?)
>
> My father has a small four wheel drive vehicle with 12 inch tyres and a
> Crosley ICE engine. It weighs somewhere around 1700 lbs, but has the
> aerodynamics of an outhouse.
>
> David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
> Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
> - Harold S.
> Hulbert
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:42 AM
> Subject: RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
>
>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congrats! You sure finished your rig quickly!
Sincerely,
--- Richard Rau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> John hosted a fun and informative EV gathering at
> his place this last
> Sunday.
>
> Little did he know when I arrived from Corvallis
> that I had brought a
> machine that would put him in his rightful place.
> The drag strip was a
> little shorter than we wanted, but we went full-on
> anyway. When the smoke
> cleared, all I could see in my rear view mirror was
> John struggling
> desperately to stay within a furlong of me as I
> crossed the finish line.
>
>
>
> Gloatingly,
>
> Richard not-a-newbie-anymore Rau
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6/14/05, reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> oh and i've just bought an electric car
So let's hear about it, what did you get?
Regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was there and I will play witness, even if it wasn't john's fastest scooter,
; ). You better be careful with these guys though Richard or they'll find a
way to cube you up and use you as their new Hawkers : 0. I was glad you
brought your new toy to show and tell. Although I am a newbie also it was fun
to see some EV grins flock to your machine and change to "human powered grins.
Thanks for the show, not often John gets smoked. Keep up the good work.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Richard Rau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
John hosted a fun and informative EV gathering at his place this last
Sunday.
Little did he know when I arrived from Corvallis that I had brought a
machine that would put him in his rightful place. The drag strip was a
little shorter than we wanted, but we went full-on anyway. When the smoke
cleared, all I could see in my rear view mirror was John struggling
desperately to stay within a furlong of me as I crossed the finish line.
Gloatingly,
Richard not-a-newbie-anymore Rau
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just read an article in E-Drive magazine about
AeroViroments new 40kW ironless core electric motor
prototype intended to be used on the Lockheed Martin
high altitude airship.
They claim part-load efficiencies greater than 98%.
Does anybody have more info on this motor?
There was nothing on their web site.
Thanks,
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been following this thread for a few days and a question comes up.
Are you guys all talking about the same type of regen? Victor is talking
about AC. Joe Smalley, Are you AC or SEP-X? Is regen regen? I was
planning on an AC genhead on the front of my netgain 9" for some regen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thats pretty funny I was thinking just the other day what one of those Subaru
Brats weighed as my uncle had one when I was 16, and I thought it was a pretty
cool little toy. Anyone know what they weigh??
Jim Husted
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hmm, how about an old "Brat"? They look light and I'm pretty sure they're
4wd.
> BoyntonStu said:
>
> If the 1995 Subaru Impreza weighed 1,620lb as a 1990 Geo Metro instead of
> its 2,605lb, I would not think twice. (I wonder what the lightest 4WD car
> is?)
>
> My father has a small four wheel drive vehicle with 12 inch tyres and a
> Crosley ICE engine. It weighs somewhere around 1700 lbs, but has the
> aerodynamics of an outhouse.
>
> David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
> Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
> - Harold S.
> Hulbert
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stu or Jan"
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:42 AM
> Subject: RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
>
>
>>
>
>
---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How is the shielding accomplished?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a great animation of how a BLDC motor works
http://www.servomag.com/flash/2-pole/2pole-bldc-motor.html
Are there big enough BLDC motors for EVs? Servomag only has small ones.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6/15/05, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I am using a Siemens Simovert system. The connector from the Link10 to the
> computer is approx 2m (6ft).
Hmm. Is your Link-10 output, and the Siemens connection/software
going to the same PC? If so, you're connecting pack negative to the
case of the Siemen's controller, and therefore probably the body of
the car, through the PC. So there's lots of possibilities for weird
currents to flow, and noise to be conducted.
I may have missed it but I didn't see you mention an RS-232 isolator
for your E-Meter. A simple opto circuit will suffice, I think Lee
posted a good example a while back.
If that's your problem, that is :)
Regards
Evan
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Jim! It was great to meet you AND all the others ... Tim,
Father Time, Marco, Bill, Greg, and Jay. Hope I'm not leaving anyone out.
Regarding my report of the race, I figured that a little white lie
wouldn't hurt because, truth is, John's *scooter* doesn't even have any
doors. Hmmmm.....how long IS a furlong?
Till next time,
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 6:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
I was there and I will play witness, even if it wasn't john's fastest
scooter, ; ). You better be careful with these guys though Richard or
they'll find a way to cube you up and use you as their new Hawkers : 0. I
was glad you brought your new toy to show and tell. Although I am a newbie
also it was fun to see some EV grins flock to your machine and change to
"human powered grins. Thanks for the show, not often John gets smoked.
Keep up the good work.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Richard Rau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
John hosted a fun and informative EV gathering at his place this last
Sunday.
Little did he know when I arrived from Corvallis that I had brought a
machine that would put him in his rightful place. The drag strip was a
little shorter than we wanted, but we went full-on anyway. When the smoke
cleared, all I could see in my rear view mirror was John struggling
desperately to stay within a furlong of me as I crossed the finish line.
Gloatingly,
Richard not-a-newbie-anymore Rau
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Several companies make them, one of the more
visible ones include;
http://www.uqm.com/
And this is an interesting hub motor;
http://www.tech-m4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/
and
www.ametektmd.com (not really, but I wish they were
:-)
Rod
--- Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here is a great animation of how a BLDC motor works
>
http://www.servomag.com/flash/2-pole/2pole-bldc-motor.html
>
> Are there big enough BLDC motors for EVs? Servomag
> only has small ones.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember the 2 cycle 3 cylinder 7 moving parts DKW. I drove it in the
50's and it had almost no engine braking. Seemed very lightweight.
Anyone remember the DKW? 2WD
Boyntonstu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
Thats pretty funny I was thinking just the other day what one of those
Subaru Brats weighed as my uncle had one when I was 16, and I thought it was
a pretty cool little toy. Anyone know what they weigh??
Jim Husted
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hmm, how about an old "Brat"? They look light and I'm pretty sure they're
4wd.
> BoyntonStu said:
>
> If the 1995 Subaru Impreza weighed 1,620lb as a 1990 Geo Metro instead of
> its 2,605lb, I would not think twice. (I wonder what the lightest 4WD car
> is?)
>
> My father has a small four wheel drive vehicle with 12 inch tyres and a
> Crosley ICE engine. It weighs somewhere around 1700 lbs, but has the
> aerodynamics of an outhouse.
>
> David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
> Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
> - Harold S.
> Hulbert
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stu or Jan"
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:42 AM
> Subject: RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
>
>
>>
>
>
---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I have been following this thread for a few days and a question comes up.
Are you guys all talking about the same type of regen? Victor is talking
about AC. Joe Smalley, Are you AC or SEP-X?
It is irrelevant.
Is regen regen?
Hmm. Is this English?
I was planning on an AC genhead on the front of my netgain 9" for some regen
You will gain the same as AC or DC SepEx system if your hardware is
just as efficient.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don (and all Siemens system users),
These systems are OEM and won't be produced unless
conform to ISO and other standards for EMI levels.
The metal case is a good shield for radiated noise.
RS232 output of my Siemens inverter has no rtouble
talking to a laptop over unshielded 5m long (~15 feet)
3 wire connection (at 9600 bps I believe).
This means no noise on *their* RS232 interface, and
that one outputs among many other things measured
battery current and voltage as well.
Don is trying to do something on its own outside
the system, connecting link10 to a shunt.
Apparently if Siemens can read values and transmit
over 15m wires, it can be (and is) done internally,
the noise on DC input cables does not bother it.
So Don could in theory duplicate this part of the
signal conditioning circuit. So the problem is with
the way link and shunt is connected right now, I suspect
no shielding or even $1 worth of filtering components
are present. What do you expect then?
Fast rise/fall 6 kHz PWM with 20-30A level is
always going to emit *some* noise, this is plain
fundamental physical property of any conductor with
changing current through it.
If you want to do it more-less professionally, get a
scope (portable Fluke works well) and look at the signal
you're trying to measure, this will give you an idea
what kind of filter is needed.
Your objective is to slow down fall/raise times of
any transmitted pulses. Simplest way is to use
low pass filter with cut off freq twice of the max
you want to capture (Mr. Nyquist claims to invent this).
consider cut off point as -3dB signal level.
Also, if you slow down your link 10 from 9600 to 2400,
it may solve all the problems on its own. Try to move
your shunt along the neg cable (if you have a way) and
see (with scope, not your link10 if this makes any
difference. This way you may have better idea if the
noise is mostly radiated (shield needed) or present on
a cable (filter needed). I will be both, but you want
to kill the biggest contributor first.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Evan Tuer wrote:
On 6/15/05, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am using a Siemens Simovert system. The connector from the Link10 to the
computer is approx 2m (6ft).
Hmm. Is your Link-10 output, and the Siemens connection/software
going to the same PC? If so, you're connecting pack negative to the
case of the Siemen's controller, and therefore probably the body of
the car, through the PC. So there's lots of possibilities for weird
currents to flow, and noise to be conducted.
I may have missed it but I didn't see you mention an RS-232 isolator
for your E-Meter. A simple opto circuit will suffice, I think Lee
posted a good example a while back.
If that's your problem, that is :)
Regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't hold me to this number, but I think the Brats weighed around 2200 lbs.
-- pretty light, so they might make a good conversion.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 7:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
Thats pretty funny I was thinking just the other day what one of those
Subaru Brats weighed as my uncle had one when I was 16, and I thought it was
a pretty cool little toy. Anyone know what they weigh??
Jim Husted
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hmm, how about an old "Brat"? They look light and I'm pretty sure they're
4wd.
> BoyntonStu said:
>
> If the 1995 Subaru Impreza weighed 1,620lb as a 1990 Geo Metro instead of
> its 2,605lb, I would not think twice. (I wonder what the lightest 4WD car
> is?)
>
> My father has a small four wheel drive vehicle with 12 inch tyres and a
> Crosley ICE engine. It weighs somewhere around 1700 lbs, but has the
> aerodynamics of an outhouse.
>
> David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
> Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
> - Harold S.
> Hulbert
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stu or Jan"
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:42 AM
> Subject: RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
>
>
>>
>
>
---------------------------------
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Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Today I've recorded precise numbers.
I reset Ah counter after wend down the hill
from my house, and read values before climb up
on another hill near my work, so these won't trow out
normal results on the flat. I will have to repeat this
on the way back to cancel out any elevation changes.
288V very average voltage.
My Ah counter tracks Ah in and out as well as cumulative
Wh in and out [of the battery], integrating every 500 ms,
so no need to track voltage during run to get grand total
at the end.
So: 9.3 miles stretch, at 35mph, battery current swings
between 11 and 22A, usually around 18A at that speed.
Grand total: 6.1Ah
Out of the battery: 7.31Ah and 2118Wh,
Into the battery: 1.2Ah and 374Wh.
The math: 1.2/7.31=0.164, or 16.4% of capacity was recovered
374/2118 = 0.177 or 17.7% of energy recovered.
Why the energy recovered percentage is greater?
Because during regen (when recovery takes place)
the voltage is greater than during driving, and energy
recovered is Ah recovered multiplied by *that* voltage.
So average voltage during all regens combined was higher
than average voltage during driving by exactly the
difference between Ah and Wh recovered:
17.7/16.4=1.079, or the voltage during regen was
7.9% higher than during driving. Thus recovered
Wh and Ah difference.
So with my car consumed 2118/9.3=227.74 Wh/mile,
but since regen put back 374/9.3=40.22 Wh every mile,
my effective energy consumption is 227.7-40.22=187.52Wh/mile.
Another way to verify this math is just divide energy
differences by the mileage : (2118-374)/9.3=
1744 (effective Wh spent) / 9.3 = 187.52 Wh/mile again.
Now, for those who is curious, money matter.
At 10c/kWh (expensive electricity!):
Without regen I'd pay 10*2.118kWh=21.18c for this trip,
With regen I paid 10*(2.118-0.374)=17.44c for this trip.
21.18-17.44=3.74c savings, or per mile 3.74/9.3=0.402c.
If this car lasts for 500,000 miles (and electricity
will cost the same :-) and I drive the same way),
I'll save total of 500,000*0.402=201,075 cents or
$2,107 of electricity costs alone.
(in CA in a year of black outs and 5x electricity cost,
$2k savings perhaps can easily turn into $10k, but this
is not why I use regen, although it's a nice bonus).
This of course does not include disks and disk brakes
savings and safety of good braking on long off hills
which is difficult express in dollars.
Will capture similar data on my way back today and report
tomorrow.
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different
Roger Stockton wrote:
Without regen [into the battery], it would just
be 8.71 out as total at the end.
Thanks Victor; my mistake.
So, this improves the situation over my original WAG. Instead of a
16.6% savings on the cost of grid electricity to recharge after this
trip, regen actually provided nearly 20% (1.73/8.71) savings.
Your reported differences between discharge voltage (as low as 220V) and
charge voltage (as high as 340V) only further improves the situation as
it means that on an energy basis an even greater percentage of energy
was returned than the Ah values would suggest (i.e. in the most extreme
case, [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 1.535kWh removed, but 1.73Ah @ 340V = 0.588kWh
returned, which is 38% of the energy removed while 1.73Ah is less than
25% of the Ah removed).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Victor.
Yes, I placed the scope on it and I see the 6kHz PWM on the data line.
Moving the shunt can be done, but is difficult. The Link10 does not have
adjustable speed, so I am limited to 9600. I am pretty sure the shunt sense
line is shielded, so I will try a low-pass filter.
Since the Link-10 operates fine under all conditions, and it is the RS232
signal that becomes corrupted, I gather it is best to have the filter on the
RS232 line?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: June 15, 2005 10:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
Don (and all Siemens system users),
These systems are OEM and won't be produced unless conform to ISO and other
standards for EMI levels.
The metal case is a good shield for radiated noise.
RS232 output of my Siemens inverter has no rtouble talking to a laptop over
unshielded 5m long (~15 feet)
3 wire connection (at 9600 bps I believe).
This means no noise on *their* RS232 interface, and that one outputs among
many other things measured battery current and voltage as well.
Don is trying to do something on its own outside the system, connecting
link10 to a shunt.
Apparently if Siemens can read values and transmit over 15m wires, it can be
(and is) done internally, the noise on DC input cables does not bother it.
So Don could in theory duplicate this part of the signal conditioning
circuit. So the problem is with the way link and shunt is connected right
now, I suspect no shielding or even $1 worth of filtering components are
present. What do you expect then?
Fast rise/fall 6 kHz PWM with 20-30A level is always going to emit *some*
noise, this is plain fundamental physical property of any conductor with
changing current through it.
If you want to do it more-less professionally, get a scope (portable Fluke
works well) and look at the signal you're trying to measure, this will give
you an idea what kind of filter is needed.
Your objective is to slow down fall/raise times of any transmitted pulses.
Simplest way is to use low pass filter with cut off freq twice of the max
you want to capture (Mr. Nyquist claims to invent this).
consider cut off point as -3dB signal level.
Also, if you slow down your link 10 from 9600 to 2400, it may solve all the
problems on its own. Try to move your shunt along the neg cable (if you have
a way) and see (with scope, not your link10 if this makes any difference.
This way you may have better idea if the noise is mostly radiated (shield
needed) or present on a cable (filter needed). I will be both, but you want
to kill the biggest contributor first.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Evan Tuer wrote:
> On 6/15/05, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>I am using a Siemens Simovert system. The connector from the Link10 to
the
>>computer is approx 2m (6ft).
>
>
> Hmm. Is your Link-10 output, and the Siemens connection/software
> going to the same PC? If so, you're connecting pack negative to the
> case of the Siemen's controller, and therefore probably the body of
> the car, through the PC. So there's lots of possibilities for weird
> currents to flow, and noise to be conducted.
>
> I may have missed it but I didn't see you mention an RS-232 isolator
> for your E-Meter. A simple opto circuit will suffice, I think Lee
> posted a good example a while back.
>
> If that's your problem, that is :)
>
> Regards
> Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sure the Siemens system is perfect in every way, Victor :)
However, I was just pointing out that Don may have inadvertently made
a "ground loop" or a even a potentially hazardous connection between
pack and chassis, and that it might be worth checking first.
Sinple to check: just unplug everything (including power) from the
laptop except for the E-Meter. Then see if it works with the
controller running.
Regards
Evan
On 6/15/05, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Don (and all Siemens system users),
>
> These systems are OEM and won't be produced unless
> conform to ISO and other standards for EMI levels.
> The metal case is a good shield for radiated noise.
> RS232 output of my Siemens inverter has no rtouble
> talking to a laptop over unshielded 5m long (~15 feet)
> 3 wire connection (at 9600 bps I believe).
[cut]
>
>
> Evan Tuer wrote:
> > On 6/15/05, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I am using a Siemens Simovert system. The connector from the Link10 to the
> >>computer is approx 2m (6ft).
> >
> >
> > Hmm. Is your Link-10 output, and the Siemens connection/software
> > going to the same PC? If so, you're connecting pack negative to the
> > case of the Siemen's controller, and therefore probably the body of
> > the car, through the PC. So there's lots of possibilities for weird
> > currents to flow, and noise to be conducted.
> >
> > I may have missed it but I didn't see you mention an RS-232 isolator
> > for your E-Meter. A simple opto circuit will suffice, I think Lee
> > posted a good example a while back.
> >
> > If that's your problem, that is :)
> >
> > Regards
> > Evan
>
>
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Victor.
> Why the energy recovered percentage is greater?
> Because during regen (when recovery takes place)
> the voltage is greater than during driving, and energy
> recovered is Ah recovered multiplied by *that* voltage.
> So average voltage during all regens combined was higher
> than average voltage during driving by exactly the
> difference between Ah and Wh recovered:
> 17.7/16.4=1.079, or the voltage during regen was
> 7.9% higher than during driving. Thus recovered
> Wh and Ah difference.
It may be more relevant to only consider the Ah difference, because a lot of
that voltage differential that affects the Wh represents losses, which
cannot be used later for propulsion.
However, especially with Lithium batteries, the Ah in can be virtually
entirely used later for propulsion.
With a supercapacitor system that pumps its voltage up and keeps the higher
voltage available for later proplulsion, the Wh would be significantly more
relevant.
Ed Koffeman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
>> [Link-10] works AOK with the null modem cable...
>> However, when the forward or reverse switch is pressed to drive
>> or reverse, the data become garbled. Each time I switch back to
>> "neutral", the text becomes legible again.
First, if the data displayed by the Link-10's LEDs is stable, then the
data transmitted by the RS-232 serial port should be stable. It is
basically sending the same data it displays.
If *both* the LED display and the RS-232 data are garbled, then you have
noise going into the Link-10. Wire positioning, filtering, etc. needs to
go on the input wires to the Link-10.
If the LED display is stable, but the RS-232 data is garbled, then you
have noise getting into the RS-232 wires.
Which of these is happening? And, to decide how to proceed, can you
answer these questions?
- How are you powering the Link-10? Where does it get its 12v power?
You must have an ISOLATED 12v power supply to power nothing but
the Link-10.
- What are you using to isolate the Link-10's RS-232 data? You
*must* have an isolator, as the E-meter's RS-232 pin 5 is
connected to the propulsion pack negative!
Fortunat Mueller wrote:
> I don't know anything about the link10, but is your
> wiring shielded? It should be.
This can help, or can HURT the situation. The challenge is that nothing
in a car is actually "ground". Connecting a shield to something that is
not ground, but is actually a voltage bouncing all over the place can
inject noise into the circuit rather than shield it.
Shielding and grounding is a big, complex topic! There are no simple
answers. If you don't know what you're doing, and don't have the
equipment to measure what's going on, you may be forced to resort to
brute-force or trial-and-error solutions.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote:
> I'm sure he won't mind, as this is all in the name of science. So, in
> theory, one could "adjust" the timing, with full current, to make the
> vehicle start, stop and reverse, using just the timing mechanism?
With a normal brushed motor, the optimal position produces the best
performance and efficiency. As you move away from this point, the motor
loses torque and efficiency, and the brushes arc more.
If you could move it "all the way around", the motor would indeed run
backwards. However, as you pass halfway between, the motor passes thru
the 0% efficiency point! It tries to run at infinite speed and zero
torque! Obviously it can't, and so would just burn up.
However, there are special motors that have been built to do this.
Magnetically, they are equivalent to two motors, one inside the other.
The output shaft turns at the speed difference between them. The fields
of the two motors are adjusted differentially, so the motor can run at
anything from -full to 0 to +full speed. At zero speed, it draws low
current and runs cool (like two motors idling no-load). Such motors were
used when they needed variable speed long long ago, before transistors
(and even before vacuum tubes).
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
Thanks Victor.
Yes, I placed the scope on it and I see the 6kHz PWM on the data line.
Moving the shunt can be done, but is difficult. The Link10 does not have
adjustable speed, so I am limited to 9600. I am pretty sure the shunt sense
line is shielded, so I will try a low-pass filter.
Since the Link-10 operates fine under all conditions, and it is the RS232
signal that becomes corrupted, I gather it is best to have the filter on the
RS232 line?
Yes. If it *dispalys* right, it has no trouble reading
from noisy shunt, just transmitting is not working.
Aparently link 10 has good input filtering, but not
on the RS232 output side.
Start with simple 1-2 order RC filters - it may be all you need.
Victor
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: June 15, 2005 10:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
Don (and all Siemens system users),
These systems are OEM and won't be produced unless conform to ISO and other
standards for EMI levels.
The metal case is a good shield for radiated noise.
RS232 output of my Siemens inverter has no rtouble talking to a laptop over
unshielded 5m long (~15 feet)
3 wire connection (at 9600 bps I believe).
This means no noise on *their* RS232 interface, and that one outputs among
many other things measured battery current and voltage as well.
Don is trying to do something on its own outside the system, connecting
link10 to a shunt.
Apparently if Siemens can read values and transmit over 15m wires, it can be
(and is) done internally, the noise on DC input cables does not bother it.
So Don could in theory duplicate this part of the signal conditioning
circuit. So the problem is with the way link and shunt is connected right
now, I suspect no shielding or even $1 worth of filtering components are
present. What do you expect then?
Fast rise/fall 6 kHz PWM with 20-30A level is always going to emit *some*
noise, this is plain fundamental physical property of any conductor with
changing current through it.
If you want to do it more-less professionally, get a scope (portable Fluke
works well) and look at the signal you're trying to measure, this will give
you an idea what kind of filter is needed.
Your objective is to slow down fall/raise times of any transmitted pulses.
Simplest way is to use low pass filter with cut off freq twice of the max
you want to capture (Mr. Nyquist claims to invent this).
consider cut off point as -3dB signal level.
Also, if you slow down your link 10 from 9600 to 2400, it may solve all the
problems on its own. Try to move your shunt along the neg cable (if you have
a way) and see (with scope, not your link10 if this makes any difference.
This way you may have better idea if the noise is mostly radiated (shield
needed) or present on a cable (filter needed). I will be both, but you want
to kill the biggest contributor first.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Evan Tuer wrote:
On 6/15/05, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am using a Siemens Simovert system. The connector from the Link10 to
the
computer is approx 2m (6ft).
Hmm. Is your Link-10 output, and the Siemens connection/software
going to the same PC? If so, you're connecting pack negative to the
case of the Siemen's controller, and therefore probably the body of
the car, through the PC. So there's lots of possibilities for weird
currents to flow, and noise to be conducted.
I may have missed it but I didn't see you mention an RS-232 isolator
for your E-Meter. A simple opto circuit will suffice, I think Lee
posted a good example a while back.
If that's your problem, that is :)
Regards
Evan
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, it's the opposite Ed. With the caps if the voltge is very stiff,
there is little difference between Ah and Wh (percentage wise); ideally
if the voltage wouldstay the same there would be no difference.
Meaning Ah become just as relevant as Wh (in fact it becomes the same
thing in terms of becoming an indicator of recovery rate).
Ed Koffeman wrote:
With a supercapacitor system that pumps its voltage up and keeps the higher
voltage available for later proplulsion, the Wh would be significantly more
relevant.
Ed Koffeman
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Victor.
That is actually my point.
If the system were infinitely stiff, they'd be the same percentage-wise.
Your system has a voltage differential, and therefore the Wh should not be
used as the measure of what has been put back into the battery.
For the regenerated energy to be useful, it must be available at a later
time e.g. when the light turns green after stopping, while accelerating
again.
Your batteries store energy chemically, with the energy storage being
proportional only to the Ah (coulombs) going in. For Lithiums, same coulombs
become available going out.
So if you measure Ah going into the battery, you are measuring the most
meaningful measure of what you can in turn get out of it.
The voltage differential between charge and discharge is typically lost
energy, because the batteries do not make the those Ah available for
propulsion (the voltage drops as soon as the current stops) at the voltage
that was applied to the system during regeneration. Therefore those watts
are not representative of useable energy.
When I referred to a supercapacitor system, it was not for a "stiffener"
bank, but the kind that uses DC-DC and stores the energy proportional to
Volts^2*Coulombs.
Ed Koffeman
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 1:41 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: How to calculate regen value (was 'Instant' Hybrid idea)
>
> No, it's the opposite Ed. With the caps if the voltge is very stiff,
> there is little difference between Ah and Wh (percentage wise); ideally
> if the voltage wouldstay the same there would be no difference.
>
> Meaning Ah become just as relevant as Wh (in fact it becomes the same
> thing in terms of becoming an indicator of recovery rate).
>
> Ed Koffeman wrote:
>
> > With a supercapacitor system that pumps its voltage up and keeps the
> higher
> > voltage available for later proplulsion, the Wh would be significantly
> more
> > relevant.
> >
> > Ed Koffeman
> >
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Hmm, how about an old "Brat"? They look light and I'm pretty sure they're
4wd.
BoyntonStu said:
If the 1995 Subaru Impreza weighed 1,620lb as a 1990 Geo Metro instead of
its 2,605lb, I would not think twice. (I wonder what the lightest 4WD car
is?)
My father has a small four wheel drive vehicle with 12 inch tyres and a
Crosley ICE engine. It weighs somewhere around 1700 lbs, but has the
aerodynamics of an outhouse.
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:42 AM
Subject: RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
Aloha All. At the time I joined this group I was going to convert one of
my Suzuki Samaurai 4wd cars. I don't know what the suzuki weighs, but
its a lot lighter than the Brat. I still haven't given up but I've been
working on electric hybrid ultralight aircraft designs instead. The
Suzuki can be raised and the batteries placed underneath if desired; I
was planning on mounting one Etek motor directly on differential, or
mount one larger motor where the transfer case mounts and use the
existing drive shafts. DB
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> These systems are OEM and won't be produced unless
> conform to ISO and other standards for EMI levels.
> This means no noise on *their* RS232 interface, and
> that one outputs among many other things measured
> battery current and voltage as well.
I think the suggestion is not that the Siemens RS232 output is noisy,
but that the Siemens system puts 6kHz noise onto the traction wiring,
and since the Link 10's RS232 is referenced to the traction negative,
then connecting both to the same PC might exacerbate the noise problems
by providing a path that the Siemens engineers did not anticipate.
> Also, if you slow down your link 10 from 9600 to 2400,
> it may solve all the problems on its own.
Unless the Link 10 is changed from the E-Meter, this is not an option.
Its RS232 output is fixed at 9600, 8N1.
Looking at the signal with a 'scope is definitely the best next step,
however, if this is not an option, you can try filtering the signal
before it enters the notebook. A first attempt might be to try a
ferrite bead over the serial cable, or get a toroid and wrap the PC end
of the serial cable through it a few times. You could also try making
your own serial cable with a single twisted pair for the data and ground
connections. Use shielded twisted pair cable and try grounding the
shield to either the DB9 shell or signal ground at the PC end. If you
don't yet have an opto-isolator between the E-Meter and notebook, add
one (see Lee Hart's past posts on construction details). Put the
isolator at the PC end so that you can still use a single twisted pair
between it and the E-Meter (you will have connections to the PCs
handshake lines steal power for the output side of the opto).
Finally, it is possible that the noise is being picked up by the
notebook itself rather than being brought in via the RS232 connection.
Some notebooks are nore sensitive to EMI/RFI than others.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
