EV Digest 4439
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV digest 4438 (Vacation - Married! Woo Hoo!)
by "Carl Fiorica" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Fw: AeroVironment motor, Airships are cool!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Zapi Controler 120v with Regen
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) GE Electric Car :: Road Test mag :: Feb 68 :: Full Text!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Welding, schmelding
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise FIXED
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: reva
by reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) BYU's EV 1 - Thanks to Power of DC Organizers
by Tom Erekson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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I will be out of the office From June 16 through June 27. Please
contact Ross Garcia ([EMAIL PROTECTED] 858-614-5031) or Brian Oliver
([EMAIL PROTECTED] 858-614-5029). Thanks! Enjoy!
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: AeroVironment motor, Airships are cool!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:00 AM
> Subject: AeroVironment motor
>
>
> > I just read an article in E-Drive magazine about
> > AeroViroments new 40kW ironless core electric motor
> > prototype intended to be used on the Lockheed Martin
> > high altitude airship.
> > They claim part-load efficiencies greater than 98%.
> > Does anybody have more info on this motor?
> > There was nothing on their web site.
> > Thanks,
> > Rod
> > Hi EVerybody;
>
> Howbout the high alitude AIRSHIP? That sounds like fun. Airships
> usually like low altitude, more lift. Airships were a facinating facit of
> air travel. The Zeppelin Co. had a perfect safety record 'til the
Hindinberg
> mishap. It was BOMBED from within, an " Infernal Device" they were called
> back then. I read that book, too.Early airships were battery electric,
> suffering more than us with the battery weight problem! We can just add
more
> springs. Can't do that with an airship<G>!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
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And anyone wanting to buy a copy can do so here, for $20:
http://lindsaybks.com/bks3/armature/index.html
It's almost worth buying just so they'll send you a catalog. Fantastic
selection of old-world technical books.
--chris
Martin K said:
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>> But, there are a few experimenters who are rediscovering the techniques,
>> and applying them to their racing EVs. Dennis Berube, Rich Rudman, and
>> John Wayland come to mind.
>
> I have "Armature Winding and Motor Repair" cir. 1920 I'd let anyone
> borrow. Has complete descriptions regarding interpoles and compensating
> windings. [1920!]
>
>
> --
> Martin K
> http://wwia.org/
>
>
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Der Klein Wunder?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:12 AM
Subject: RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
I remember the 2 cycle 3 cylinder 7 moving parts DKW. I drove it in the
50's and it had almost no engine braking. Seemed very lightweight.
Anyone remember the DKW? 2WD
Boyntonstu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
Thats pretty funny I was thinking just the other day what one of those
Subaru Brats weighed as my uncle had one when I was 16, and I thought it
was
a pretty cool little toy. Anyone know what they weigh??
Jim Husted
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hmm, how about an old "Brat"? They look light and I'm pretty sure they're
4wd.
BoyntonStu said:
If the 1995 Subaru Impreza weighed 1,620lb as a 1990 Geo Metro instead of
its 2,605lb, I would not think twice. (I wonder what the lightest 4WD car
is?)
My father has a small four wheel drive vehicle with 12 inch tyres and a
Crosley ICE engine. It weighs somewhere around 1700 lbs, but has the
aerodynamics of an outhouse.
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu or Jan"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:42 AM
Subject: RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
DKW= Deutsche Klein's Wagen= German small auto
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 9:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
Der Klein Wunder?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:12 AM
Subject: RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
>I remember the 2 cycle 3 cylinder 7 moving parts DKW. I drove it in the
> 50's and it had almost no engine braking. Seemed very lightweight.
>
> Anyone remember the DKW? 2WD
>
> Boyntonstu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jim Husted
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:09 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
>
> Thats pretty funny I was thinking just the other day what one of those
> Subaru Brats weighed as my uncle had one when I was 16, and I thought it
> was
> a pretty cool little toy. Anyone know what they weigh??
> Jim Husted
>
> Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hmm, how about an old "Brat"? They look light and I'm pretty sure they're
> 4wd.
>
>> BoyntonStu said:
>>
>> If the 1995 Subaru Impreza weighed 1,620lb as a 1990 Geo Metro instead of
>> its 2,605lb, I would not think twice. (I wonder what the lightest 4WD car
>> is?)
>>
>> My father has a small four wheel drive vehicle with 12 inch tyres and a
>> Crosley ICE engine. It weighs somewhere around 1700 lbs, but has the
>> aerodynamics of an outhouse.
>>
>> David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
>> Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
>> - Harold S.
>> Hulbert
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Stu or Jan"
>> To:
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:42 AM
>> Subject: RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Discover Yahoo!
> Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:34:39 -0400
From: RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: GE Electric Car :: Road Test mag :: Feb 68 :: Full Text!
Full text from Road Test Magazine, February 1968
The Truth About The G.E. Electric Car
by Byron Bloch
Perhaps the most intriguing rumor in the automobile industry is that General
Electric Company is well along in its development of a "Mustang-type"
electric car.
Does General Electric have an electric car? Yes, indeed, though there's
still a bit of mystery about what G.E.'s released publicly versus what the
substantial rumors claim they've really got under wraps. If the General
Electric developments are as far along as now appears feasible, they could
well serve as the necessary catalyst that might revolutionize, rather than
evolutionize, the entire automobile industry. The avante-garde electric car
would not only bring an end to the near-catastrophic problem of air
pollution, but would also offer major benefits in economy of operation, ease
of maintenance, high reliability, silent running, versatility of vehicle
design, and could lead to a decentralization of automobile manufacturing
away from the present-day 'Big Three and a Half'.
To fully understand and appreciate the General Electric electric car saga,
it is enlightening to trace certain developments over, especially, the past
two or three years ... including technical reports, Senate hearings, Ralph
Nader, and other sources.
Comes The Revolution
How did GE get so involved with electric cars in the first place? As the
pieces of the GE puzzle now seem to fit together, the story began over four
years ago, though intensifying in early 1964. GE management was logically
prompted to 'keep in touch' with electric car developments ... just in case
a potential market might develop for GE's electric traction motors,
electronic control systems, fuel cells, and metal-air batteries. Thus, they
decided to assign their researchers to probe what might lie ahead.
Some of these creative scientists, especially a few at GE's 'think factory'
in Santa Barbara, California, began to realize that the advanced
technological capabilities at GE (and elsewhere) could quickly lead to a
truly modern electric automobile with a total performance that would rival
that of a typical internal combustion engine automobile ...
(Coincidentally, General Motors Corporation also has research laboratories
in Santa Barbara, where creative scientists have been working on a 'secret'
GM electric car that unites a small internal combustion engine (ICE) with a
generator, rechargeable batteries, and electric traction motors. The engine
speed is regulated at a low, fairly constant rate which, in conjunction with
the small engine size, minimizes the emission of pollutants. Thus, GM has a
'hybrid' ICE-battery electric car under development ... versus the
equally-secretive GE 'hybrid' fuel cell-battery car.)
The GE staff recommended the building of a prototype modern electric car as
the next logical step. The optimum design appeared to be a blend, or
'hybrid' of refuellable fuel cells--for normal motive power, and to maintain
a continuous full-charge on the batteries--plus powerful, quick-recharge
metal-air batteries--for abundant reserve power in peakload conditions, as
in climbing hills and passing situations.
In the meantime, GE had also funded a small-scale electric car project at
the Illinois Institute of Technology, under the guidance of IIT's Professor
Jay Doblin. GE next parlayed all of its electric car energies back east to a
combination of its motor-generator and transportation research facilities in
Erie, Pennsylvania; to its electrochemical research and development
facilities in Schenectady, New York, and to its aircraft accessory turbine
department in Lynne, Massachusetts. At least two basic electric vehicle
designs were to be developed: a rather conventional battery-powered vehicle
to approximate the non-GE state-of-the-art; and a much bolder look ahead ...
the "hybrid" fuel cell/quick-recharge metal-air battery version that would
compete with, and even transcend, tomorrow's Mustang. (For the sake of
convenience, the latter GE vehicle will hereafter be referred to as their
"ElectroCar".)
True to GE;s corporate slogan that "Progress is our most important
product", the exciting progress embodied in their evolving ElectroCar
project exceeded the expectations ... or probably even the wildest dreams
... of GE's top management. The ElectroCar was shaping up as an
excitingly-styled, ultra-modern four-passenger hardtop sedan ... with
cruising speeds in the 60 mph category, and a range exceeding 200 miles ...
easily refuelled-and recharged in a matter of minutes. Performance, size,
durability, economy, style ... it was all there!
What do you do with a revolutionary electric automobile that could cause
havoc to the existing auto and petroleum industries ... two of GE's best
customers. The answer could not be arrived at too hastily, for even our
national economists and politicians ... not to mention the highly vocal
auto-oil industry spokesman ... frequently proclaim loudly that cars and
petroleum are, after all, the very "foundation" of the American economy.
While management hesitated, the creative GE researchers were innocently
expounding their capabilities and acheivements. And just in case GE might
decide to become the fifth major automaker in the U.S., and thereby perhaps
need a partner, GE management reportedly held some preliminary on-again,
off-again chats with such fellow industrial giants as Alcoa and Chrysler.
The words began to leak out here and there, and the pieces started to fall
into place. There was little doubt as to what a highly motivated GE could
really do. General Electric Corporation has the innovatice brains, the
progressive (though inhibited) management abilities, the necessary
technological base (fuel cells, metal-air batteries, electronic control
systems, electric motors) ... and the abundant capital. (GE is the fourth
largest U.S. industrial corporation ... conspicuously right behind GM, Ford,
and Standard Oil, and right in front of Chrysler, Mobil Oil, and Texaco.)
The dilemma and intrigue focused upon what GE might actually do with the
remarkable ElectroCar project. Go for a touchdown? Punt? Quit the game? and
while GE management debated their next course of action, a wealth of
evidence bubbled up from out of the past.
A Prelude of Progress
In September, 1965, a prominent GE electrochemist wrote in a technical
article that a special three-electrode cell had been developed at the GE
labs in Schenectady, New York. Among its features to greatly increase the
rate of recombining the oxygen at the negative electrode, and thereby
facilitate a faster rate of recharging, was a third (auxiliary) "catalyst"
electrode to encourage the combination of hydrogen with the evolved oxygen.
The result: "Cells can be charged safely in less than an hour."
In June, 1966, another technical article appeared, discussing the
"revolution" being caused by newly designed primary batteries that used
easily-replaceable plates of zinc or magnesium for the metal electrode, and
plain air for the positive electrodes. These metal-air batteries are
actually half battery (the metal anode) and half fuel cell (the air cathode)
... and can pack more energy per pound than any standard dry cell battery.
Among the principal examples was the new GE magnesium-air battery, which
employed a salt water electrolyte, magnesium plate anodes, and air cathodes.
Only the magnesium anode is consumed, and is readily deposited in a nylon
mesh bag at the bottom of the battery case ... as a magnesium hydroxide
flock (milk of magnesia). As the article states:
"The mesh bag is easily lifted out, emptied, and returned for re-use with a
fresh plate of magnesium and a fresh charge of salt water. A whole battery
can be 'recharged' this way in ten minutes."
Note what this does to our conventional thinking about recharging a
battery: Normally, we assume that a battery must be connected to another
source of electrical energy--and then wait perhaps a few hours for a full
recharge to take place.
When the present auto industry spokesman from "The Big Three and a Half"
and oil companies discuss the possibilities of electric cars, they are
always quick to point out the time-consuming chores of recharging the
batteries. Yet, by the method of quickly and easily removing and
replacing--or replenishing--the magnesium anode and salt water electrolyte
at your nearest "ElectroCar Service Station," you'd be back on the road in
eight minutes maximum. Compared to the similar time that it now takes to
refuel a car's gasoline tank, the electric car suddenly looks a lot more
appealing. Straight electrical recharging--rather than the replenishment
method just cited--could also be used to fully recharge the system in less
than an hour or so.
Cells to Sell
General Electric Company has also published a lucid book entitled "Some
Plain Talk About Fuel Cells", in which they proclaim the many attributes of
modern fuel cells and, in particular, their own ion-exchange membrane fuel
cell. GE offers the following basic description:
"A fuel cell is a continuous-feed electrochemical device in which the
chemical energy of the reaction of a conventional fuel and air (oxygen) is
converted directly into useful electricity. it can operate continuously as
long as fuel and air are available."
Noting that their ion-exchange membrane fuel cells are suitable for a wide
variety of ground, space, and undersea applications, GE goes on to list
their many extraordinary advantages:
"No noxious exhaust."
"Silent operation."
"Nothing to wear out."
"Operates at room temperature and normal pressure."
"Self-regulating. Fuel is consumed only on demand."
"No caustic liquid electrolyte."
"High power-to-weight and power-to-volume ratios."
"High fuel efficiency."
"Regenerative operation."
A fuel cell will produce electricity continuously, as long as fuel is fed
to the system. Thus, the range of a fuel cell powered automobile would only
be limited by the amount of fuel stored in containers aboard the vehicle--in
precisely the same manner that the range of an internal combustion engine
vehicle depends on the amount of gasoline in the tank. Thus, a fuel cell
powered electric auto could travel 200 to 400 miles on a tankful of
hydrazine, hydrogen, ammonia, or some other fuel and you'd merely stop at a
local 'electromobile service station', take a few minutes to fill up, and be
back on your way again. (Oh, the attendant would probably have to drain some
excess water from an auxiliary storage tank ... since a fuel cell produces
water in addition to useful electricity.)
While a fuel cell produces continuous electrical energy ... most useful
when a vehicle is cruising ... it must also be coupled to an auxiliary
fast-discharge electrical battery system, for abundant power in peakload
situations, such as when a burst of acceleration is needed. The most likely
partner for the fuel cell? The prime candidates include GE's own special
three-electrode battery cell (rechargeable in less than an hour), and GE's
own ion-exchange membrane magnesium-air battery (which could be fully
replenished in a few quick minutes).
A Senate Probe
Seeking methods to alleviate the problems of air pollution in our cities,
Joint Hearings were held before the Committee on Commerce and the
Subcommittee on Air and Water Pollution of the Committee on Public Works, of
the U.S. Senate. These Hearings, held in March and April, 1967, were
officially entitled: 'Electric Vehicles and Other Alternatives to the
Internal Combustion Engine.' The published record encompasses 550 pages of
the most extensive technical discourse on electric cars ever published.
General Electric is mentioned in the published record, but, strangely, not
in their own words--for, although GE is listed on page 126 as being among
those companies believed to be conducting electric vehicle and component
research, GE is nonetheless conspicuous by its total absence from the
Hearings and the published record. GE is also listed on pages 129, 130, 131,
422, 423, and 425 as having a total of eleven contracts from various
governmental, military, and aerospace organizations ... all on behalf of
fuel cell and battery development. The point here, simply stated, is that
General Electric has been using governmental contracts--(taxpayers'
money)--to build a firm base of advanced technology in fuel cells,
batteries, and related components, all of which are highly relevant to the
solving of a pressing national problem called air pollution.
Apparently either some Senator 'forgot' to request GE's appearance at the
Hearings, or perhaps GE judiciously decided to stay safely at home.
Finally, on page 509 of the same document, there's an intriguing statement
by Robert Ayres, of the Hudson Institute, Inc., of New York:"In fact, GE is
building a prototype refuellable magnesium-air battery for an electric truck
under a contract from the U.S. Marine Corps."
Thus, even in the face of major Senate probings and formal hearings into
electric vehicles and related components, such as batteries, fuel cells,
controls, motor--areas in which GE excels--GE nonetheless stood strangely
silent. The Hearings were supposed to determine whether or not the Federal
Government should significantly aid the development of electric cars. (Refer
to Senate Bills 451 and 453 of the 90th Congress, 1st. Session, 1967.)
A Secret
On July 17, 1967, The Wall Street Journal published a front page article of
high impact ... "Detroit Rife With Talk That GE is Readying an Electric
Automobile" ... subtitled "Rumors of Mustang-like Car Abound, But So Do
Denials: Big Three Act Worried." The article went on to describe what was
known, and what was rumored--plus quite a few rebuttal statements from
members of the internal combustion engined automobile industry. The article
stated that GE actually had a prototype car built by the Modern Engineering
Service Company, of Detroit. (The car was later spotted on the roads around
Troy, Michigan, prior to its being shipped to the GE plant at Schenectady,
New York.) In trying to verify the rumors, Tim Metz, the Wall Street Journal
reporter, contacted top management and technical personnel. While the brass
denied that GE was working on an electric car, either by itself or with a
partner, Metz was able to glean some information from technical personnel.
What he uncovered was essentially a confirmation of earlier rumors: Yes, it
was a 'Mustang-type' car, it could travel at more than 80 miles per hour,
and it could cruise more than 200 miles before its power source had to be
replenished.
The next day, GE top management publicly discounted the Wall Street Journal
article. In his statement, Gerald Phillippe, chairman of the board, did
admit that GE was then building a small battery powered car, but that it was
"strictly a research vehicle." (The full statement appeared in Road Test,
November, 1967.) No mention was made of fuel cells which, because of GE's
extraordinary avante-garde efforts for aerospace programs, has become a
substantial technological base for GE. The Gemini space missions, for
example, successfully utilized compact, efficient, powerful fuel cells made
by GE.
Chairman Phillippe also neglected to mention that GE had already teamed
with Monsanto Chemical Company to convert a U.S. Army truck into a workable
fuel cell vehicle ... the M-37, earmarked for silent and efficient service
in Vietnam. The compact, quiet, and powerful under-the-hood Monstanto fuel
cells use hydrazine fuel and, of note, the efficient and smooth solid-state
electronic control system was built by ... General Electric! (Now you'd
think that GE's own advanced fuel cell technology and quick
recharge/replenish metal-air battery technology ... and, quite reasonably,
they'd have their "electric Mustang" or ElectroCar, even if GE management
would prefer to call it "strictly a research vehicle".)
Nader Electrifies
Ralph Nader was next to plunge into the GE electric car probe. Spurred on by
what he termed the auto industry's lethargic and arrogant attitude regarding
air pollution, and their feeble attempts to develop adequate controls for
their internal combustion engined vehicles, Nader took a deep look at the
feasibility of practical electric cars--and GE appeared much too wise to not
be working on electric cars. Finally, on September 14th, 1967, Nader
publicly spoke on his findings. He stated that it appeared that GE had
developed an electric car good for 80 miles an hour over ranges up to 200
miles, using a "hybrid fuel cell" system whose battery could be recharged in
eight minutes. Nader further claimed that the car was being kept "top
secret" because of GE's desires not to disturb the auto and petroleum
industries.
Nader's charges were responded to by a GE company research official, who
added that company policy precluded use of his name. The GE official alleged
that Nader's claim of "recharging batteries in less than eight minutes ...
is off by a factor of 20. You'd have to shoot 20,000 amperes into the car to
recharge batteries that fast--and you'd melt the whole system down trying to
do it."
The GE official's statement is astonishingly remote from GE's own
previously proclaimed capability. As we cited earlier, GE personnel stated,
in September of 1965, that they had developed a three-electrode cell that
can be "charged safely in less than an hour." Furthermore, in June of 1966,
GE personnel stated that their new magnesium-air battery could be easily
"recharged this way in ten minutes." Finally, in August, 1967, scientists at
the Argonne National Laboratory stated that they had developed light-weight
battery packs that "can be recharged in 15 minutes with special equipment.
If used in a subcompact electric car, the battery could have power for a
range of 200 miles at a top speed of 60 miles an hour."
These statements about battery recharging performance cast substantial
doubt on that unnamed GE employee's claim that 160 minutes (8 minutes times
a factor of 20) are necessary for recharging!
The GE official had also remarked that "Nader's claim for 80 miles an hour
speed is off by almost 2 to 1. So is the claim for a 200-mile range." Yet,
even electric vehicles that are inferior to GE's own rumored vehicle serve
to contradict this statement. In testimony before the Senate Commerce
Committee, Mr. Robert A. Charpie, President of the Electronics Division of
Union Carbide, Described an existing fuel cell vehicle with a "70 mph top
speed and a range of about 150 miles." He also noted that "by doubling the
size of the fuel tank, the vehicle range could be increased up to 300
miles."
Others have testified in the same Hearings that existing technology can
permit speeds easily exceeding 60 miles per hour.
The General Electric official also mentioned that GE's family of fuel cells
"would cost $5,000-$10,000 even in production." However, Dr. Clare P.
Stanford of Allis-Chalmers Company stated, at those Senate Hearings in 1967,
that "there is nothing inherently expensive in the fuel cell. We don't need
research breakthrough. We need engineering, production, development." And
again, Mr. Charpie of Union Carbide simply noted that "the average cost of
(an internal combustion) power plant in a present vehicle is, give or take,
a dollar per pound; and the cost of materials which go into fuel cell and
battery systems is substantially lower than a dollar a pound. It is the
handcrafting assembly which is required at low production rates which makes
them expensive at present." And, of course, overall efficiency and operating
costs are significantly lower for electric vehicles than those obtainable
for internal combustion engined vehicles.
Thus, in summation, it appears that the rumored performance of General
Electric's 'Mustang-type' electric car is feasible and could well be
accurate ... despite initial denials in September, 1967 by an unnamed GE
spokesman.
On October 9th, 1967, Nader sent a detailed letter to Phillippe of GE,
urging him to utilize his company's vast technological resources to help
remedy the "worsening air pollution epidemic" and, specifically, to
reconsider his company's apparent policy of secrecy regarding its electric
car research and development. Nader made copies of his letter public at a
press conference in Los Angeles ... which was, at that very moment, in the
throes of many consecutive days of 'smog alerts', those dangerously-toxic
air pollution conditions of which 80 to 90 percent was and is caused by
automobiles.
A Box Of Batteries
On October 19th, 1967, GE finally broke the silence. At a stockholder
information meeting in Cincinnati, Arthur Gueche, GE vice president of
research and development, revealed that his company had built a "strictly
experimental" electric car that could reach speeds up to 55 miles per hour,
and has a range of around 100 miles between battery chargings. (Technical
data on the GE vehicle appears in the accompanying comparison chart.)
As each smog-infested day drifts by, it becomes disturbingly apparent that
revolutionary innovations will be needed to avoid a "doomsday" in Los
Angeles, New York City, Washington, D.C., or in the entire nation for that
matter. Air pollution can no longer be slowly and haphazardly battled by the
apathetic efforts of the monolithic automobile and petroleum industries,
whose multi-billion dollar investment in the status quo ... or in 'a slow
and controlled progress' ... precludes the rapid attainment of substantial
remedies. And one very feasible remedy is the modern electric automobile.
Is there truly a General Electric 'electric Mustang' ... the elusive
ElectroCar? While specific affirmative news from GE would indeed be welcome
this in-depth probe strongly indicates that such an ElectroCar is highly
feasible in light of today's emerging avant-garde technology. Thus, GE or no
GE, the ElectroCar might well be 'hidden' in the smog, and merely just
around the corner. Perchance it'll even be named the "Progress!"
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, I had a typo. I think it's Deutsche Kleines Wagen
RR
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Rau
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
DKW= Deutsche Klein's Wagen= German small auto
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 9:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
Der Klein Wunder?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, very nice. Is it new or second hand? Nice alternative to a bike
in the winter I suppose.
Let us know how you get on!
Regards
Evan
On 6/15/05, reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> it's one of these reva things made in bangalore
> it's a direct drive to the back axle with sepex
> gubbins
> performance is about 40mph with a range of around 30
> miles (they say 40 but you would be measuring
> performance with a calender)
> having had a look at the batteries it needs a big pack
> of thunderskys to give it some range and a voltage
> hike to pep up the performance
> has a nice computer on board with watering system
> battery heaters , fans, regen, aircon and central
> locking cd player etc
> in theory it will cary 4 people but i think hills
> would be a drag
> i'ts suposed to be delivered friday so we shall see
> ...
> if it can cope with the roads in india it should be ok
> for popping around abergavenny in
> reb
>
>
>
> --- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On 6/14/05, reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > oh and i've just bought an electric car
> >
> > So let's hear about it, what did you get?
> >
> > Regards
> > Evan
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
> snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
>
>
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
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On 6/15/05, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The noise in the RS232 still persists. Here are the symptoms:
Don, please read the previous messages by me and Roger Stockton. It's
hard to make suggestions when you haven't explained the details of how
you've got everything connected up, but if you want to confirm whether
the supposition is correct (that you've got the siemens inverter and a
non-rs232 isolator hooked up to the same laptop), then the answer is
almost definitely to do with ground differences. Adding shielding and
filters will do nothing if that is the case, instead you need to add
isolation between the E-meter and the PC.
Again, if you try the experiment that I suggested (unplug everything
from the laptop except the E-meter, and see if it works then), that's
a very simple way to confirm if this is the problem.
Trying to help...
Evan
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--- Begin Message ---
Oops, didn't read this in time.
so, QED..
On 6/16/05, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the tip Lawrence. Running the laptop on batteries corrected the
> issue. Noise is an interesting thing...
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second hand from going green who are trying to sell
them in london for going to work
as far as i know this one is the first one i've seen
for sale second hand
it has been used for 2 yrs in london and has done
around 7000 miles
the batteries are exide CMP 6v 200ah which are
probably nearing the end of their life so they need
replacement with something better
i thought the thundersky 1000 ah cells would be a good
bet but the cost is a bit heavy
the system is only about 50v though
it would be nice if the thing had a 80 mile range
i'm thinking this is about as far as you would want to
drive at 40mph
has any one any experience with souping these things
up ?
as in higher voltage etc ?
having had a look at it last week it looks pretty
basic electrically apart from the computer controlling
the heater blankets watering system cooling fans etc
any one who wants to see some pictures let me know
reb
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ah, very nice. Is it new or second hand? Nice
> alternative to a bike
> in the winter I suppose.
> Let us know how you get on!
>
> Regards
> Evan
>
> On 6/15/05, reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > it's one of these reva things made in bangalore
> > it's a direct drive to the back axle with sepex
> > gubbins
> > performance is about 40mph with a range of around
> 30
> > miles (they say 40 but you would be measuring
> > performance with a calender)
> > having had a look at the batteries it needs a big
> pack
> > of thunderskys to give it some range and a voltage
> > hike to pep up the performance
> > has a nice computer on board with watering system
> > battery heaters , fans, regen, aircon and central
> > locking cd player etc
> > in theory it will cary 4 people but i think hills
> > would be a drag
> > i'ts suposed to be delivered friday so we shall
> see
> > ...
> > if it can cope with the roads in india it should
> be ok
> > for popping around abergavenny in
> > reb
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > On 6/14/05, reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > oh and i've just bought an electric car
> > >
> > > So let's hear about it, what did you get?
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Evan
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
___________________________________________________________
> > How much free photo storage do you get? Store your
> holiday
> > snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos
> http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> EVan
> http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
>
>
___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, thanks for the explanation. Once again, you hot the nail on the head. I
will get an isolator. And maybe a few more lessons is AC circuits and
noise!
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: June 15, 2005 8:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
Don Cameron wrote:
> The noise in the RS232 still persists. Here are the symptoms:
> Link10 display works 100% all the time. Controller off, on and in
> drive mode.
>
> The Link10 RS232 to the computer displays data correctly, but only
> when the controller is not in drive and reverse.
> Connecting a scope to the Tx line at the computer end, the RS232
> signal is clean, but only when the controller is not in drive mode.
> When the controller is in foward or reverse, the Siemens 6kHz PWM is
> clearly visible.
>
> The RS232 cable is fully shielded with shielded connectors. The cable
> shielding is only connected to the metal connector ends, and **not**
> to pin 5.
>
> The computer is powered by a 300W inverter connected to the car's 12V
> battery.
>
> Lee, I am not using an opto isolator. (Bad EVer!)
>
> Hope this helps,
Yes, it does!
Your problem is caused by the lack of an isolator in the Link-10 RS-232
output. Add the isolator, as close to the Link-10 as possible, and I predict
your problem will go away.
The mechanism is subtle, but I'll try to explain it.
1. The propulsion battery pack is floating, i.e. neither + nor -
connects to the car's chassis. An ohmmeter should indicate a
very high resistance between either + or - to chassis (megohms).
A voltmeter would show a negligible voltage between these
points. This means there is no DC path from battery + or -
to the chassis.
2. But, there is an *AC* path! The metal chassis of the car, and
every piece of metal it is connected to (motor frame, controller
case, etc.) forms one plate of a large capacitor. The plates
inside the batteries, the windings in the motor, and all the
parts mounted on heatsinks inside the controller are the other
plate of this capacitor. The various plastic insulators (battery
cases, wire insulation, insulators between semiconductors and
their heatsinks in the controller, etc.) are the dielectric of
this capacitor.
3. The controller draws current from the batteries in sharp-edged
pulses. The resistance and inductance of the batteries, motor,
controller, and wiring converts these current pulses into voltage
pulses. So, a 'scope will show you that there are strong 6 KHz AC
voltage spikes between the + and - battery terminals and chassis.
4. The Link-10 uses the - terminal of the pack as its "ground"
reference; all its input and output signals are referenced to
it. But since this - terminal has significant AC noise, so
does the Link-10's RS-232 Ground and Data pins! The voltage
*difference* between Ground and Data is "clean" and noise-free;
but both are bouncing together relative to chassis ground.
5. Your laptop's power supply is probably a conventional switching
power supply. Such supplies all have capacitors connected between
both input wires and "ground", and both output wires and "ground".
The capacitors are necessary to pass EMI requirements; without
them, it would interfere with radio and TV in the area.
6. The laptop power supply may also ground its negative output to
the car's chassis with an actual wire, or thru a resistor. Or if
you plug it into an AC adapter with a 3-wire cord, there will be
a direct wire connection to the third wire ground.
6. So, your laptop is using the car's chassis as its ground reference.
Or if plugged into an AC adapter, it uses AC powerline's third
ground pin or neutral as its ground reference.
7. Therefore the laptop is seeing BOTH the RS-232 data *and* the
motor controller's 6 KHz noise!
The "obvious" fix is to connect the Link-10's and laptops ground references
together. But this grounds the - end of your propulsion pack!
That creates safety hazards.
So, the solution is to add optical isolation between the Link-10 and laptop
RS-232 ports. That way, they don't need to share a ground reference.
Note that no reasonable amount of grounding or shielding can eliminate this
problem. Trying to do so means you need to get all the controller's
switching noise off the pack - terminal. At the power levels involved, this
is not practical.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
RR,
The DKW owner referred to it as De Kleine Wonder.
BoyntonStu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Rau
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 2:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
Sorry, I had a typo. I think it's Deutsche Kleines Wagen
RR
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Rau
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
DKW= Deutsche Klein's Wagen= German small auto
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 9:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
Der Klein Wunder?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, DKW comes from "Dampfkraftwagen" (steam powered car). The first car
produced in 1917 was steam powered. In 1919 they produced the first
2-cylce engine and stayed with 2-cycle till end of production in 1957.
Emil
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:31:31 -0700, Richard Rau wrote:
> Sorry, I had a typo. I think it's Deutsche Kleines Wagen
>
> RR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Richard Rau
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:09 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
>
> DKW= Deutsche Klein's Wagen= German small auto
>
> Richard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dave
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 9:38 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
>
> Der Klein Wunder?
>
> David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
> Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
> - Harold S.
--- End Message ---
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The BYU Electric Vehicle Racing Team (EVRT) would like to thank Chip
Gribben and all who were involved in organizing and running the Power of DC
event in Hagerstown, MD. It was VERY successful event for our team as we
set a new record for the NEDRA MP/A class with our Maxwell ultracapacitor
powered, modified EV 1 -- in fact we were very pleased (and surprised) to
run in the low 14's.
The team originally set the MP/A record in Las Vegas in April 2003 with the
original 1 speed transaxle and one set Maxwell Boostcap ultracapacitors
(160 in series). The team realized that to go faster we would need two
speeds and more volts at the end of the race (the single pack of ultracaps
started at 400 v and was at 185 v at the quarter mile).
To increase ending volts the team installed a second pack of ultracaps --
we now have two 130 ultracap packs in parallel for a total of 260
ultracaps. The team also moved the ultracaps from the T pack under the car
to the passenger side of the car -- this moves the weight forward in the
car, assisting with traction. The starting voltage is 400 and now we're
ending at about 275 v.
Over the past two years the team has developed a two-speed, chain drive
transmission using two clutches (an overriding clutch for 1st gear and a
multi-plate racing clutch for 2nd gear, both driven by a solid shaft that
replaced the spider gears in the differential, connected by double roller
chain to a jack shaft that holds the two clutches). We originally got the
idea for using two clutches from Louie Finkle several years ago. Getting a
chain drive to handle the torque has been problematic -- we have broken
chains, torn teeth off sprockets, stripped keys in shafts, twisted off jack
shafts and half shafts, and so forth. We twisted off the jack shaft three
weeks before the Power of DC event and had to redesign, build, install, and
test a new jack shaft before we could leave for Hagerstown -- the new jack
shaft worked flawlessly -- we actually got in three runs before we found
the next weakest link in the mechanical drive. We either stripped two keys
in the 1st gear drive sprocket or we twisted off the drive shaft in the
differential -- we won't know for sure until the car returns to campus in
early August (BYU is sponsoring the Electricity Merit Badge booth at the
National Boy Scout Jamboree in Fredricksburg, VA, and the EV 1 will be on
display to attract scouts to the booth). We're hoping that we have only
sheared the keys, if so, we'll weld the 1st gear sprocket on the drive
shaft and try to break into the 13's at our local track (Rocky Mountain
Raceways, Salt Lake City) before it closes in late September -- after that
we'll redesign, build, install and test a new drive shaft in preparation
for the Wicked Watts event in Las Vegas in the spring of 2006. Our goal is
to join the NEDRA 100 MPH club and run in the mid to low 13's.
Thanks again to Chip and his team for a great event --
Tom Erekson
Co-advisor
BYU's Electric Vehicle Racing Team
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