EV Digest 4471
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Where are my amp hours?
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: adapting MES motor (was: discontinued Siemens motors)
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Another AC Motor Supplier? RaserTech
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: new batteries, low specific gravities
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EV kit cars, How much weight might this support?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: List Meta Request
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Another AC Motor Supplier? RaserTech
by "David C. Navas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) letting the smoke out, DCP
by "Brian D.Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Tire Height Chart
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Another PFC Caution? (was: PDF-20 design flaw) (long)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Another AC Motor Supplier? RaserTech
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: adapting MES motor (was: discontinued Siemens motors)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: What is the balance point for a Hybrid design?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Garden Tractor Conversion - Craftsman?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: What is the Exide Orbital Deep Cycle part number
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
When the bike is off i.e. controller key off, the emeter reads +.3A,
you are powering the meter for the battery you are monitoring ? what you
might be seeing is the current that the meter is using , you have 3 wires
going to the shunt , not having them on the right part of the shunt will do
this . also do you have the 2 since wires twisted , this helps ?
as soon
as I apply power to the controller key (control pin 1 on my Alltrax) then
it
reads 0.0 amps like it should. I don't think there is a way to calibrate
the meter and I can't explain why this is happening.
do you have a wiring diagram to check ?
When sitting or charging, the emeter reads a steady voltage. When I am
driving, the voltage will jump around a lot. Sounds normal right, well
the
weird thing is that it will mainly hover around the nominal voltage (72v)
but will frequently (every couple seconds) jump up in the 80s and 90s as
high as 97 volts. I don't understand this at all either. There shouldn't
be that much potential voltage there at anytime.
dose it have a voltage divider , the meter reads 72v ? . for a test you
could hook the + sence lead to the 12v battery that the shunt is on and not
use the divider. . , but first check to see that the fuse are clean.
Today I rode into work for the first time (15 miles) it did ok, but
acceleration was slower at near the end of the trip.
what you want to learn now is how to spot the sighs that will keep you form
getting to that point.
The amphour meter read
9.0. I stuck mainly to 35 mph roads will couple miles at 55mph. That
comes
out to 43 watt hours/ mile. I don't know it that sounds reasonable or
not.
are your batteries broken in ? its easy to push them to hard at first . do
you have a plane volt meter , learning to read this is good , ....
Something is screwy with my emeter or my batteries and I am not sure which
it is yet...
If I find that I am getting way under what the batteries are rated at,
should I go back to the battery store and complain?
Any thoughts are appreciated.
-Garret Maki
Broomfield, CO
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Where are my amp hours?
Check the calibration of the meter. Put the battery on charge or discharge
at a fixed current and measure the current with another method (example:
calibrated clamp on ammeter) and verify both meters read the same current.
Check the zero setting on your meter. Make sure it reads zero when the
batteries are not being either charged or discharged.
Do a capacity check on the batteries by timing a discharge with a known
fixed load. You may find out the batteries have only 17 AHr of capacity.
If I recall correctly, the Peukert number should be about 1.35.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 10:41 AM
Subject: Where are my amp hours?
Hi all,
I built my first conversion this spring. It is a motorcycle.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/newsubmissions/maki_.html
<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/newsubmissions/maki_.html>
I am using new Trojan SCS150 flooded batteries rated at 100AH C20 rate.
I
have an e-meter installed. I had the amp hour set on the emeter set for
100AH and the perkerts exponent set conservatively at .35. I rode it and
the 4 fuel gauge leds at the top never came off full charge and the
batteries ran down to pretty much empty.
Then I set the emeter down to 80AH.
I have never go the emeter to read more than 17 AH used and the batteries
are flat. I have an Alltrax 450 amp controller and I never see more than
170 peak battery amps draw.
I don't get it. Where is all my energy going. I don't know if the
batteries aren't putting out the AH they are supposed to or if the emeter
isn't working correctly. I am not sure how to troubleshoot from here.
I am frustrated. Any advice?
Garret
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
apparently now the case with the 5133 motor.
The big question I've got with the MES motor is regarding its lack of a
shaft, having that female internal spline, and whether there would be any
issues or problems in adapting that to my tranny. Anyone have any thoughts
on that? Victor, Don? Shari, Mike?
I assume that I would need to have machined a small custom shaft which
would
be splined on one end (the end that goes into the motor) and smooth keyed
on
the other end (the end that sticks out of the motor), and then Shari and
Mike could take it from there and do their thing. Is that right?
If you do it that way, you'll have (starting at the motor):
1. The custom splined shaft
2. A taper lock bushing that fits on the keyed end of your splined shaft
3. A hub, custom made to fit your flywheel.
Why not have it all made as one part? . It would have the external spline
on one end, and a flange that fit your flywheel on the other ( and, if
necessary, an internal bore for a pilot bearing.)
That would be lighter in weight, probably shorter overall ( which means less
adapter thickness and less adapter weight), and probably cheaper.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody have any information or experience with this supplier of AC
Induction motors for EVs? www.rasertech.com
thanks
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
> Chuck Hursch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Anyways, I was rather surprised at how low the specific
> > gravity readings were. Temperature (62-64 degF), the
> > readings ranged from 1226 to 1261 (the table should be posted
> > at
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/050626_hydrometer_readings.txt).
> > I usually run readings at 1270-1290, so I'm a little
> > surprised, especially given the way the pack otherwise was
behaving.
>
> Are your 1226-1261 readings before or after temperature
compensation is
> applied to them?
Those are temperature-compensated readings. At that temperature,
it is only about 4 or 5 points.
>
> The temperature compensated values should certainly be over
1275 if you
> are fully charging the batteries.
I would think so. Somehow not all the lead sulfate is getting
converted back.
>
> > My usual runs are 10-20 miles, usually closer to 10. My
> > charging is done with a Zivan K2 120V charger, IUI with bulk
> > charge (the first I) at ~11A, the U is about 7.05V/6Vbattery,
> > and the last I is at 2A.
>
> 7.05V/6V battery is a quite low 2.35V/cell. For an algorithm
with a
> timed constant current finish, such as you describe, you would
normally
> charge to at least 2.4V/cell (and USBMC recommends 2.583V/cell
for their
> particular chemistry).
Ok, I'll try turning it up to 2.4V/cell this weekend and see if
that improves the hydrometer readings by the next battery
maintenance session, which I usually do towards the end of the
month, so late July. I'm leery of 2.583V/cell since I've seen
and heard of a lot of cases where the batteries get hot or the
pack unbalanced, and then the charger decides to keep on charging
the batteries right on into thermal runaway. I do have a thermal
probe for the Zivan, but the best I can do the way things are now
is tape the probe to the side of the rear pack's polypro case.
So the 2.4V/cell and 2.583V/cell numbers mentioned above are
really the numbers to be reached during bulk charge, at full bulk
charge rate? I think this is something that has always confused
me. Or are these numbers out there to then be woven into your
own particular style of battery charging - still seems like a
black art to me...
>
> 2A is a reasonable finish rate (for newish, helathy batteries),
and a
> reasonable criteria for terminating the constant voltage (U)
phase,
> however, with such a low voltage the current may drop to this
level
> before your battery is fully charged, and then the fixed
duration finish
> phase may be unable to provide the amount of overcharge the
battery
> needs. Your finish phase can only provide 6Ah of additional
charge.
Lee Hart posted a list of specific gravities and percent charged.
I attempted to find that, but I was unsuccessful - must have been
using the wrong search string or looking in the wrong place in my
EVDL email folders. But anyways, 1226 is probably not more than
80% charged up.
>
> > I've seen the batteries at 7.7V/6Vbattery during
> > this final I, and my nose is telling me that things are
> > gassing heavily.
>
> This is a good sign, as 7.7V/battery is 2.57V/cell, which is
*almost* up
> to USBMC's recommended charge voltage. However, it isn't quite
there
> and the batteries may not be remaining at or above this level
long
> enough for the s.g. to come up fully.
>
> > Oh, also after the water fill, I decided to give the pack a
> > 2-hr equalization charge @ 8A on the variac. Get things
> > churning really good, and stinky at 8.15V/batt.
>
> Was the pack voltage still rising after 2hrs, or did you
arbitrarily
> decide to terminate the equalise charge there?
The pack voltage was up to that 8.15V/batt within an hour and
more or less stayed there for the duration, although it was
starting to go down a bit towards the end. The temperature of
the pack went from about 65-degF at the start to 75-degF at the
end (I have a darkroom thermometer with circular face and a stem
that goes down between two of the batteries - the thermometer is
usually within a degree or two of the electrolyte temperature
once things thermally stabilize, but in this case, with all that
energy going in, I suspect the plates were hotter by a few more
degrees).
>
> You probably don't need to use quite that high an equalise
current, but
> if you allow it to continue until the pack voltage quits rising
and then
> measure the s.g. after letting the pack rest perhaps 12-24hrs,
you
> should certainly be seeing values nearer to the 1290 mark.
Yes, I may try another 8A (or a bit less, like 6A) run, then
measure sg after a day. I'm a bit leery now of 8A equalization
charges, since after doing them for awhile twice a month, my last
pack, which was a set of Trojan T125, seemed to start dropping
cells (low capacity, low sg). Trojan's recommended equalize rate
apparently is 4A, while US's is 8A (and I think I've even seen
11-12A implied, ie. C/20, from Nawaz, which would seem a
sure-fire way to murder your batteries).
Always appreciate the advice. Even after driving an EV for
eleven years, I'm still learning battery basics, how to charge
them and keep them alive. It's a fine art...
Thanks,
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan and All,
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> With all the talk about converting one of those
> Cobra kit cars...
>
> The way it's constructed(the Factory Five model
> anyways), the frame
> rails only go back as far as they need to go, and no
> more. The rear
> structure looks to be built to facilitate the weight
> of the fuel tank
> and nothing more.
But that has nothing to do with how much weight in
batts you can put there.
As the batt box structure needs to be made anyways,
ypou just design, build it from scratch, a much better
way to do it instead of trying to make what's there
work. The batt weight is limited by the rear axle
weight rating so easily over 1,000lbs of batts could
be put there, way more than you would need in the rear
of this car.
Also nothing says you need to use their chassis as
you could easily use an older compact pick up chassis
that would handle any weight you might want and can be
picked up for $200 all day long. This goes for most
any kit car as it's quite easy to shorten a frame to
fit.
And all the brake pedals, steering wheel + system,
electricial system can be used too.
But even the FF front can hold 800lbs stock as
that's what an engine, ect that normally goes in it
would weigh.
I'd buy a Daytona kit car as it's is more aero and
enclosed coupe for basicly the same money and would be
more destintive, selling for more money as a custom or
build more and call it the Ryan EV coupe!!
>
> If fuel weighs ~6lb/gal and it's a 14 gallon tank..
> ~84 lbs hanging
> off the support structure.
>
> Now how many lbs of lead might this trunk support?
>
>
http://www.multier.com/picposter/FordGuy/IM001530.jpg
>
>
http://parts.factoryfive.com/roadster/chassis/frame1lg.jpg
>
> ---
>
> Interestingly enough, the fiberglass body weighs 110
> lbs and the frame
> weighs 275 lbs..
But to this you must add a lot but still shows you
why it's smart to make a kit car into an EV!!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
http://parts.factoryfive.com/roadster/compparts/compparts.html
>
http://parts.factoryfive.com/roadster/chassis/chassis.html
>
> A big go-cart..
>
>
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:04 AM 30/06/05 -0700, Nick Austin wrote:
I don't think people really understand the technical issue here.
I'm hearing people talk about the subject line, which really has little to
do with this problem.<snip>
I've noticed this problem for a while, but I assumed I must be one of the
very few people on this list who used threading :)
Thanks!
Hi Nick (and all)
I guess you may be in the minority then, over 1000 listees and you have a
problem with threading, where many more report they have a problem with
failing to change the subject.
EV enthusiasts may just be not that interested in getting "the best" from
an Email program or other software, more just interested in knowing enough
to use the list, and get on with EV and other things. So threading gets
ignored - I certainly have no interest in getting my Email program to do
any more than I need it to, ie: get the mail, let me read it and reply. And
I'm a tech - just not a computing tech, so what about all the non-technical
types on the list?
So maybe you just need to 'go with the flow' a little, and use an email
program that sorts by subject line (here I am making assumptions that there
is such a thing!).
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Anybody have any information or experience with this supplier of AC
> Induction motors for EVs? www.rasertech.com
Raser does not supply or manufacture motors.
They come up with technology that they hope to sell to other companies
who do.
In other words, forget about them.
-Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Boy ,I wish he would give us that 1 year warranty that you speak of for this
rebuild, He did say that he would give us back half of the money , and then
changed it to $250 , if we sell him the blown controller.He also told me he
bought DCP from Damon (Alltrax, they make great controllers)... I'm not
sure if this is true , only what he told me.....Yes it's true that All DC
controllers can fail in full on mode , one of the reasons I like to have a
working clutch in the car, as well as fuses and emergency disconnect switch.
Mainfuse
Clarification:
--- "Brian D.Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Just a short note of Warning to folks that are
> working with the new owner of
> DCP,
Let's be specific. There is no "new owner" that I
know of. Peter Senkowski has DCP/AllTrax run a new
version of the on-road controllers, and has updated
the circuitry. He provides the new and refurb'd units
with a 1-year warranty. Or perhaps there has been
some other arrangement that I'm not privy to, and
that's what you're referring to...
He gives no warranty for his work. I sent him a
> working t-rex belonging
> to a customer that had a ground fault through the
> precharge circuit,
> returning the unit for over double the quoted price
> it still had the same
> problem. He then stated that it was normal and Okay
> to use. It only lasted
> about 5 miles , glad no one was hurt , I have had
> these go full on when they
> blow.
For the record, all DC controllers have the ability to
fail in a full-on mode. That's why we are supposed to
be building them with fuses and circuit breakers; the
latter accessible from the cabin of the vehicle.
Just my 0.02 (;-p
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
Brian D. Hall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good for a quick reference:
http://www.riverviewtire.com/Tire_Tips.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1 Jul 2005 at 10:24, Chris Tromley wrote:
> I see the very real potential here for a thermal
> runaway in my flooded lead-acid pack. Sure, it's a rare occurrence in
> general, but *it happens*. And apparently the current PFC chargers will
> *allow* it to happen. Sorry Rich, this sounds like an "oops".
I don't know that I agree. As I implied in a post before, the PFC is indeed
not
a foolproof product. I don't pretend to speak for Rich, but from what I can
tell,
it wasn't supposed to be!
It's a charger designed for hobbyists - indeed designed BY hobbyists, since
Rich asked what people on this list wanted in a charger. It assumes that you
have some bit of experience in EV design and construction, have an idea of
what you want and need for your project, and have control over how it will be
used.
There are other chargers that are products of established EV component
manufacturers - Brusa, Delta Q, Hobart, Lester, Solectria, and Zivan to name
just a few. For whatever reason, most of these companies seem to concern
themselves more (sorry Rich) with product liability and protection, and less
with raw power and cost. Most of them build in at least a few more
safeguards for operators and equipment.
The catch is of course that many of these chargers offer appreciably less raw
charging power at a higher cost, sometimes MUCH higher. You choose, you
pay.
The PFC has minimal charge control, but it isn't a "smart" (microprocessor
controlled) charger. On the other hand, some chargers, such as the Brusa
range, have an almost overwhelming amount of processor flexibility onboard.
I hope you'll forgive me for mentioning the Brusa specifically - I do so only
because I'm familiar with the earlier Brusa models. I'm sure that other
chargers can provide some similar safeguards.
In any case, the Brusas I know (NLG4 range) provide 5 charging stages with
voltage and current limits. They monitor voltage, current, time in current
stage, temperature, and quite a bit more; they can change among the stages
(backward and forward) based on remarkably complex rulesets. With
optional firmware, they implement the Saft STM algorithm pretty much
exactly.
They also have overall safety limits on voltage, current, temperature, time,
amp- and Watt-hours charged, and probably some I've forgotten. Any time
these limits are exceeded, the charger shuts down and displays a fault
warning.
Of course, this smart a charger doesn't come cheaply. But then, how much
is your battery worth? Your EV? Your garage? What do you have invested
already, and what can you afford?
The EV hobbyist should make an informed choice. I wonder if some people
on this list have chosen the PFC chargers the way we chose Lesters 25
years ago: because it seemed as if lots of other people we knew were using
them.
It's a natural human approach. One hears that something works well for
others. Everybody is talking about it, and hardly a peep is heard about other
products, so it almost seems as if there's no other choice. Please pardon
my stating it this way - I don't mean to disparage any person or any product -
but this is rather herd-like behaviour.
This is one reason (there are others) for the remarkable consistency in
conversion designs within eras. For example, 1970s conversions tended to
use aircraft generators. In the 1980s it was Prestolite motors. In the 1990s
it was ADC motors. To some extent we used what was readily available, but
sometimes it was a matter of what "everybody" was using.
Bill's experience is a sad, sad case. I'm really sorry to hear that the STMs
have been damaged, and hope he can still get some reasonable service from
them.
But his experience does have a positive side. It should remind us that we are
all somewhat out on the edge.
In some cases we're using conservative, established components - industrial
and/or forklift motors and controllers - but running them well outside of their
intended purposes and far beyond their ratings.
In other cases, we're using limited production items, which often have
innovative design approaches and offer extraordinary raw performance. These
have a different downside. They make us pioneers, since they don't have
behind them the experience and debugging time that comes from having tens
of thousands of units in the field over several years. In a way, the users of
these new products are sort of beta testers.
Cottage-industry controllers and chargers just might be the perfect choice for
your project - or they might not. It depends on your goals for the EV, your
tolerance for risk of various kinds, your need for reliability, and whether
it's a
one-off or a production vehicle. Does it really make sense that daily driver
commuters should use the same components as drag racers? The key is
that - thank goodness - there are alternatives for most conversion
components. You have choices! So do your homework. (As an aside, don't
forget that reliability comes in part from using devices well below their
limits.)
Also don't forget that there are several EV component vendors out there who
have many, many years of experience. They're thoughtful guys, usually
pretty good at listening to your goals for your project. They'll help you
select
parts, and suggest ways of installing and configuring them, that will bring you
closer to your goals.
One thing more. This list remains an excellent resource, with smart people
who are free and generous with advice. There are many voices here who
speak from long experience, but some of them speak rather more softly than
others. So be sure to listen closely for those quiet voices. Volume doesn't
always equal authority!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
After spending most of the afternoon today struggling with my motor, I
finally got the drive end bearing off the shaft!
What finally worked was a combination of ratcheting down the jaw puller
till very tight and beating the crap out of it with a 4lb sledge hammer.
I tried using the jaw puller approach in many different ways, but it
wasn't until I was able to set the motor up in a make-shift cradle and
use the puller and my newly-acquired sledge hammer together that I got
it out.
It took about four hard blows then the bearing made a loud pop and came
about 1/2 way off the journal. Then I was able to use the jaw puller to
get it the rest of the way off.
I'm very glad I'm changing this bearing because it looked _terrible_ on
the underside. Not only are globs of thick black ooze coming out all
around the seal, but there are globs of this black ooze splattered all
around on the surfaces between the end bell and the fan. Very odd.
Even weirder, the journal where the bearing was pressed on has some
reddish-brown marks around it. They look exactly like rust marks to me,
but I didn't think the bearing or shaft could rust? Unfortunately, these
marks don't show up in the photos (I'll try taking more tomorrow).
Photos are here (look at the very bottom for the new ones):
http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pgallery4_3.php
Tomorrow I plan to install the new bearings, assemble the motor, and put
my Jeep back together. Hopefully the drive end bearing will go on easier...
Thanks for all the help so far!,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave, it sounds like you had a bad experience with them. Care to detail?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David C. Navas
Sent: July 1, 2005 5:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Another AC Motor Supplier? RaserTech
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Anybody have any information or experience with this supplier of AC
> Induction motors for EVs? www.rasertech.com
Raser does not supply or manufacture motors.
They come up with technology that they hope to sell to other companies who
do.
In other words, forget about them.
-Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charles,
I am interested in MES motors for my next project as well. I have yet to
investigate mating options, but I was thinking that metric splines might be
more available in europe for the MES motor. Maybe even european vehicles
use the same spline on axles (VW, Fiat, etc?). For my Siemens metric male
spline I had a quite expensive set up custom made in Vancouver, and I do not
want to go through the expense again. For the next project I will do a lot
of looking around for the A20x17 DIN 5482 male spline, before having
something custom manufactured.
You may also want to look at what Cliff did for his Siemens female splines
at http://www.proev.com/WHistPgs/Hist0018.htm
I took a brief look at electro auto at the 914 conversion page, but did not
see what their adapter looked like. But it sounds like you are on the right
track: male spline from motor, smooth shaft mated to 914 input shaft. You
may also be able to use their ADC motor mount as well (with some
modification).
Contact your local machinist who has done engine mating work - they are
usually a great resource for this kind of thing.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Whalen
Sent: July 1, 2005 2:25 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: adapting MES motor (was: discontinued Siemens motors)
Don and Victor,
Thanks for the advice and feedback, which is helping me to work through all
of these issues myself as well. Based on all of this and upon further
reflection and analysis, I can see that I really do want to keep (and use)
the gearshift, clutch, and transmission in the 914 for all of the
flexibility, advantages, and efficiency that will provide in my particular
application (which includes long-range highway driving).
After reviewing Victor's well documented account of his own conversion
process, I went and checked out Fidanza's and ClutchNet's websites.
Strangely enough, Fidanza offers lighweight aluminum flywheels only for
'70-'72 model year 914s but not for '73-'76 (mine is a '76). But it looks
like I can get everything I need for my '76 914 in one-stop shopping at
ClutchNet, namely a lightweight aluminum flywheel and high-performance
pressure plate and friction disc.
However, I don't think Steve and I are going to solve our other problem
(unrelated to motor/tranny issues but which nevertheless is holding up the
entire project) in time for me to get that last Siemens 5133 motor before
someone else grabs it. Therefore, I am changing gears (so to speak, no pun
intended) and starting to focus on the MES motor and reorient my plans
towards it rather than the Siemens. Aside from the fact that MES only
offers a measly one-year warranty (which seems strange for a Swiss company)
in contrast to Siemens' 10-year warranty, I would think it might actually be
better to buy from a company that has a continuous production line going
rather than one that only does a batch production run once every 5 years or
so depending on if and when it gets a sufficiently large order (> ~100
units) from an OEM. Not that there are very many parts that can wear out or
fail in these relatively bulletproof AC induction motors and
inverter/controllers, but with MES at least there is the peace-of-mind
factor of knowing that the motor & controller I bought are still in active
production. I mean, you know, well sure, Siemens has a 10-year warranty,
but one has to wonder how they're going to honor, service, and support that
warranty (if any customer ever needs it) when their surplus over-stock is
all used up, as is apparently now the case with the 5133 motor.
The big question I've got with the MES motor is regarding its lack of a
shaft, having that female internal spline, and whether there would be any
issues or problems in adapting that to my tranny. Anyone have any thoughts
on that? Victor, Don? Shari, Mike?
I assume that I would need to have machined a small custom shaft which would
be splined on one end (the end that goes into the motor) and smooth keyed on
the other end (the end that sticks out of the motor), and then Shari and
Mike could take it from there and do their thing. Is that right?
Of course the 18 kW Siemens 5105 (the surplus over-stock of which is
apparently now also depleted) is also shaftless with a female internal
spline, and I gather that there have been a few conversions with it, so I
guess people must have dealt with this particular issue, right?
Thanks,
Charles
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Charles Whalen wrote:
>> Victor (and all),
> ...
>> But my application
>> is quite different. I am designing a long-range (220+ miles) highway
>> cruiser, so my preference is to optimize more towards higher speed
>> highway driving.
>
> IF you also want very zippy performance, you're better off staying
> with at least 2 speed transmission.
> This means you wouldn't want to use MES gear box. Single gear is OK
> for up to about 60-70 km/h common in Europe.
>
> I can use single (2nd) gear only in ACRX, but find using first in some
> situations is preferred(see faq on my site).
>
> There is no need to limit the motor to 5600 RPM, but using it at 9000
> RPM and only first gear is not a good idea either, because of very
> high losses in the gear box - it will get real hot (aside the flywheel
> problem which are solvable with small aluminum one).
>
>> I am planning to write MES in Switzerland and/or Carraro (not sure
>> where they're located)
>
> Comex/Carraro boxes are made in Italy for MES-DEA. they deal with OEMs
> only; there is no direct contact I know of. You're certainly welcome
> to try.
>
>> to ask if there are other gear options with different ratios that
>> they can put into that Carraro single-gear reduction gearbox that
>> mates to the MES motor.
>
> The options are listed on my site, also see downloadable PDF docs.
> Don't forget, to some degree you can vary overall ratio by selecting a
> tire size.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
Don Cameron wrote:
> Charles, I am working through the same issues with my new project. You
> will
> find that without a transaxle, or a custom gearbox you will be hard
> pressed
> to find anything in the 5:1 to 7:1 range. One thing you may consider is
> getting a lightweight flywheel (which can handle higher RPMs), or getting
> rid of the flywheel and the clutch all together. That is what I did with
> my
> New Beetle project. I only shift it when it is stopped (although bold
> people will shift on the fly). Most of the time it is in second gear for
> around town use. Occasionally when I go on the highway, I just start off
> in
> third. Not having a clutch has negative sides as well, but since you are
> looking at fixed gear anyways...
>
> I noticed on Rod's Discovery channel program he is using belts to drive
> the
> motors, and this can give you the ratio you want with some fabrication.
>
> I know Victor has a line on some 2:1 reducers and a two speed transaxle,
> it
> may work for your application.
>
> Good luck, keep us informed.
>
> Don
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Charles Whalen
> Sent: June 29, 2005 7:50 PM
> To: EV Discussion List
> Subject: Re: discontinued Siemens motors
>
> Victor (and all),
>
> Thanks for the update and clarification on the last 5133 currently
> available
> and the possibility that there might be more available again at some point
> in the future at some price yet to be determined.
>
> Steve and I are currently grappling with a particularly gnarly and nasty
> engineering challenge (unrelated to the issue of motor selection) that has
> slowed us up and is holding up further progress on the project until we're
> able to solve it, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone else grabs that
> last
> 5133 before I do.
>
> But on the issue of motor selection and what had been my plans to go with
> the Siemens 5133 (that is, until I just read on your website a few days
> ago
> about it no longer being available), with the advice and input of a few
> other EVers, I had been looking into and discussing some of the challenges
> of adapting the 5133 with its long splined shaft to my 914's existing
> transmission. These discussions included things like possibly machining
> an
> additional bearing to support the 5133's long shaft as well as programming
> the Simovert to limit the 5133's RPM to a maximum of 5600 (which is my
> existing redline on the tach) so as to keep the tranny within its original
> design specs and try to avoid the unfortunate fate that has befallen
> others
> where a heavy flywheel spinning at 7-9000 RPM ends up bending that long
> shaft. I had deemed this to be an acceptable solution since the maximum
> operating efficiency point of the Siemens motors appears to in the 5-6000
> RPM range (at around 88% efficiency). So using a 5500 RPM shift point
> would
> let me drive in 2nd gear in town up to 46 mph and then shift up to 3rd
> above
> that for highway driving up to 69 mph, and for those rare occasions where
> I
> might need or want to briefly exceed 69 mph, I'd go up to 4th gear.
>
> That's all well and good, although it does involve a bit of complexity.
> However, in just the last two days that I have started to explore the MES
> options (after finding out about the lack of availability of the Siemens
> 5133), I have started to realize and focus on the advantages of weight and
> simplicity of going with the MES drive. The MES motor and inverter are a
> fair bit lighter than comparable Siemens of the same power rating, and
> with
> the MES I can get rid of the 914's heavy tranny and use the lightweight
> Carraro single-gear reduction gearbox, plus there are none of those
> aforementioned adaptor challenges or having to think about shifting gears
> and all of that. The simplicity is very appealing (KISS) and would seem
> to
> present a fairly robust drivetrain. Some have advocated going in this
> direction by pointing out to me that almost every single OEM EV ever made
> has used a single-gear reduction gearbox.
>
> The only problem here is the inevitable trade-off and choice that must be
> made between optimizing more for city driving or alternatively for
> high-speed highway driving. When I run the numbers for my 914, it appears
> to me that the 8.64:1 gear in the Carraro reduction gearbox has been
> optimized more towards lower speed city driving. I guess that probably
> makes sense for the primary application for this MES drivetrain over in
> Europe, where I believe it is mostly being used in (OEM) tiny little
> city-cars for urban driving, like the Smart EV, I think. But my
> application
> is quite different. I am designing a long-range (220+ miles) highway
> cruiser, so my preference is to optimize more towards higher speed highway
> driving. Just doing a rough, quick-and-dirty calculation, it looks like
> maybe a 7:1 gear ratio would probably work better for me in that regard.
> So
> I am planning to write MES in Switzerland and/or Carraro (not sure where
> they're located) to ask if there are other gear options with different
> ratios that they can put into that Carraro single-gear reduction gearbox
> that mates to the MES motor.
>
> Any thoughts on that, Victor or anyone else?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charles
>
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
>> Charles (and all),
>>
>> One last 5133 motor will be available with either short Simovert 6-SV1 or
>> Simotion inverter. Whom ever grabs it first. They probably will be
>> available in some future, but the cost is unknown. This one still goes at
>> surplus price (brand new motor and inverter of course).
>>
>>
>> Charles Whalen wrote:
>>> Just checking Victor's website (http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm), I
>>> noticed that some of the Siemens motors at the lower end of the power
>>> scale have been discontinued, including the 18kW (cont.) 5105 and the
>>> 30kW
>>> (cont.)
>>> 5133, the latter of which is apparently no longer available for
>>> individual purchase in single quantities. It seems that Siemens must
>>> not have been getting enough orders for the 5133 to keep up their
>>> production line on it, as they will now only make a special order
>>> production run of the 5133 motor for large quantity bulk purchases of
>>> 50-200 units. That's a bummer for me as the 5133 was my preferred
>>> choice for my 914 conversion. The 45kW
>>> (cont.)
>>> Siemens 5135 (which apparently *is* still available) is a bit
>>> overpowered and heavy for my particular application.
>>>
>>> Does Victor or anyone over there in Europe know what's going on with
>>> Siemens? Are they getting out of the motor business at the lower end of
>>> the power scale (as it doesn't look like they are replacing these
>>> discontinued motors with any newer models, from what I can tell from
>>> Victor's website)?
>>>
>>> I guess I'll have to look into the MES motors, although I don't believe
>>> anyone over here in the States has done a conversion with them, at least
>>> not that I can see on the EV Album. So that's a pretty big unknown as
>>> far as the lack of any empirical record; no one to ask about their
>>> experience with MES motors, although I heard that they are being used in
>>> some limited production OEM EVs in Europe.
>>>
>>> Charles
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stu or Jan wrote:
>
> Let's assume we want a lightweight hybrid that we will use around town but
> occasionally for longer trips.
>
>
>
> If we had a 10hp diesel it could be used like a locomotive diesel/electric,
> it would run all the time to send power to the batteries.
>
>
>
> On the other hand if we had enough grid batter capacity for 10-15 miles or
> so, in many instances we would not need to start the diesel.
>
>
>
> This brings us to series or parallel hybrid design.
>
>
>
> I am getting a little confused here about which system is more
> efficient. I know that two 90% reliable system in parallel will
> yield 99% reliability.
No; it's still 90% efficient, no matter whether one, the other, or both
systems are supplying power. But you are right; two 90% RELIABLE systems
are 99% RELIABLE (because there is only one chance in 100 that BOTH will
fail at the same).
> What I do not know is the losses through an engine>generator>charging
> system.
When parts are in series, you multiply the efficiency of each one
together to get the overall efficiency. For example, if an engine drives
a generator, and the generator drives a motor, and each is 0.9=90%
efficient, then the overall efficiency is 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.729=72.9%
efficiency.
So, a parallel hybrid is (in theory) more efficient and more reliable.
But in practice, there is still a lot we don't know. People are still
experimenting with both types (and everything in between; witness the
Prius).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hastings wrote:
> The craftman tractor my father gave me died.... so I was thinking
> of converting it to electric. It was a 15.5hp automatic with a
> 2 blade 42" deck. I only need to mow 3/4" an acre of lawn...
> The riding mowers look like they use 3hp for moving and 1hp each
> blade. I don't think I should need much more than that, or is a
> tractor that much different?
You're on the right track. You don't need nearly as big an electric
motor. ICEs are rated by peak power; electric motors by average power.
On level ground, a garden tractor needs about 1 hp average; anything
over this is for higher speeds, climbing hills, pulling loads, etc.
The power needed for mowing also varies a lot. Mine uses about 1/2hp for
an 18" blade mowing medium grass (that just means my lawn after growing
a week). A bigger blade, or thicker or wetter grass will need more.
A friend and I converted his old 8hp Wheel Horse tractor using a 1.5hp
electric motor for motive power, and a 3/4hp motor for the blades. It
worked just fine. The two motors actually drew 100-150 amps total at 24v
which is more like 3hp. But the batteries only lasted 30-45 minutes at
this current, so the motors didn't have time to overheat.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Nick for the details and pictures.
Too late for you now, but the trick I needed to get my taperlock hub
off was to use an impact wrench on the gear puller. I'm guessing the
vibrations from the impact wrench helped shake things loose.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
> I finally bolted in the RX-7's new Z1K and fired it up last
> Friday night, after putting in a new clutch pack and a junkyard
> transmission. The controller worked flawlessly, until I took
> the car to the car wash! ...
> although we've been doing shallow cycles this week, I committed
> batteryacide... After arriving at home five of the batteries were
> below 12 volts with no load, and some of them were venting, with
> one too hot to touch!
Oh man; that must make you sick!
I suppose the good news is that now you are an official expert (i.e. you
can speak with authority of what NOT to do, and why not)!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
