EV Digest 4489
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Thunder-Sky Straps
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: State of Charge calculations
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Battery connection question
by Matt Holthausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: State of Charge calculations
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Battery connection question (addendum)
by Matt Holthausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) small part needed
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: small part needed
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: small part needed
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery connection question
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Advancing ETEK motors
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Engine Generator: Pusher trailer option re: Jerry
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Battery connection question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Advancing ETEK motors
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Engine Generator: Pusher trailer option re: Jerry
by Matt Holthausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: OT: Another idea that probably won't work
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Martin Staionette. Three passenger. Three wheel woody.
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: State of Charge calculations
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Battery connection question (addendum)
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: OT: Another idea that probably won't work
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Engine Generator: Pusher trailer option re: Jerry
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Victor. You say that the straps can't be reused. Do you have any
photos of the straps being tightened? The straps that I was picturing had a
little winch on them that you could tighten and loosen. Sounds like you've
used something different than that.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Thunder-Sky Straps
See them being installed in the motorcycle frame
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/bms/dscn2971.jpg
Strap no more than 4 (with end plates) first, and then
these blocks of 4 with straps over existing straps - in
blocks of the length you need.
I can supply better photos if you need, but I'm sure you
get the idea.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Not sure about that. I don't know how much they actually expand once
charged. The nylon straps with a winch will make your cells more difficult
to fit in a battery box. May be Dennis D or Victor can comment.
>
> Steve
>
> Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Steve wrote:
>
>
>>My only comment is the straps have to be strong and tight.
>
>
> Would those nylon straps with the little winch work, or couldn't I get
them
> tight enough?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 8, 2005, at 8:40 AM, Eric Poulsen wrote:
Hold on there ... I've gotten exactly the results as described in the
document. However, my question is: What good are these numbers in
estimating true SOC. You end up with two different capacity variables
(Crem and Cprem), both of which you can use to get a "percentage of
charge," but they're different, and the CECO document implies this by
saying "... Therefore a 20 hr discharge at 10 A would deplete the 100%
of the battery capacity using Crem or Cprem at the same rate." When
using the 20-hour rate, they do indeed match exactly (percentage-wise),
but diverge at different rates.
My understanding is that the e-meter does calculate the two different
numbers. Cprem is based on the concept of Peukert, adjusted for 20 hour
discharge (I^n * Ti = [I sub-2]^n * 20 Cprem is I sub-2). If Cprem is
greater than Crem then Cprem is subtracted from the 20 hour capacity.
If Crem is greater than Cprem then Crem is subtracted from the 20 hour
Ah capacity. Thus anytime the amps are lower than the C20 rate the
actual Ah in that sampling period are subtracted. Anytime the amps are
above the C20 rate the adjusted (Cprem) Ah in that sampling period are
subtracted.
Seems more complex than working off of the Cp, but Peukert's formula is
not perfect and tends to overestimate available capacity at very slow
(relative to battery size) discharge rates.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:51:01 -0700
On Jul 7, 2005, at 12:06 PM, Philip Marino wrote:
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: State of Charge calculations
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:03:54 -0700
> C = 200 Ahr N = 1.25
> I20 = 200 Ahr / 20 hr = 10 A
> Cp = (10 A)^1.25 x 20 hr = 355.6 Ahr
>
> This last equation is wrong. The units on both sides of an equation
> MUST be the same, for the equation to be correct. Here, we have Ah
> on the right side, and (A) ^1.25-h on the left.
[snip]
I^n * Ti = constant
Where
* I = discharge current [amp]
* N = battery constant (n=1.35 for typical lead-acid batteries)
* Ti = time to discharge at current I [seconds]
Quoted by Philip Marino from:
<http://www.thermoanalytics.com/support/publications/
batterymodelsdoc.html>
Think about this equation for a minute. The constant, also known as Cp, is
the batteries Ah capacity at the 1 amp rate. That is to say, that no
matter what power you raise 1 amp too the answer is 1. So in Lee's example
the Cp is 355.6 Ah. The capacity at the 10 amp rate is going to be less,
and the formula describes this effect (200 Ah in Lee's example.) The
battery can deliver 1 amp for 355.6 hours or 10 amps for 20 hours (until
dropping to 1.75vpc.)
So you take this Peukert's capacity and rapidly sample your pack current
(lets say once per second.) I^1.25 / 3600 tells you how much of the Cp you
used in one second. Keep subtracting those from the Cp and when it reaches
0 your battery is dead at that discharge rate. If the battery discharge
rate was constant you could just do the math in advance and use a timer to
determine state of charge, but EVs have extremely variable battery load.
Paul "neon" G.
Paul - good approach: repeatedly calculating and subracting the capacity
you've used.
To get the same conclusion you reached about Cp - that it's the capacity at
one amp - but doing it a bit more rigorously, and maintaining consistency
of units, look at this :
Start with I^n * Ti = C , where C is a constant for all combinations of T
and I ( for a given battery)
Let T1 = the time to discharge at I=1 amp, and T20 the time to discharge at
I=20 amps
Now: 20amps^n * T20 = C = 1amp^n * T1
So: 20amps^n*T20 = 1amp^n *T1 ( since they both equal the same constant C)
Solving for T1 : T1 = (20amps/1amp) ^n * T20 = 20^n * T20 ( units are
time on BOTH sides)
This (T1) is the time to discharge at 1 amp . It has units of hours (
time). If you multiply this by the discharge current of 1 amp (since
capacity = discharge time * discharge current) you get T1 amp-hours.
This is the same value (numerically) as the Cp that you mention ( and was
stated in many earlier posts). And this explains why the numerical value of
Cp equals the 1 amp capacity in amp-hours. ( as you said above)
But the math used to get there was sloppy, so the units didn 't work.
Starting with the basic equation will work for any units you want to use.
You can use milliamps or coulombs/fortnight. And, it all makes sense and
will give you the right answer independent of your choice of units.
More importantly, you have now come up with a rational method to calculate
remaining capacity.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Amp meter huh???
Yea I have heard that one before... It's a real pain....And well most of us
have Amp meters just a couple of feet away on the main Dash Gages... so
adding one is redundant.
But yea, it could make for a nice dress up feature.
Polarity on DC, NOPE the line rectifier is a full bride, EVEN you can't plug
it in backwards!!
Keep in mind that You need a DC rated breaker to back up the AC breaker on
the charger.
Your input limits are 12 to 400 DC, Gulp!
And it a warrenty voiding feature... You break it I fix it, I send a bill.
Oh yea All the PFC chargers can charge to 450 volts DC output. Not 360 not
400 but 450 VDC. Some really early ones only did 400, but they were the
Betas...
So...You can get way up there with the PFC chargers.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 2:00 AM
> Subject: Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Wayland" <
> >
> >
> > . The
> > > recent flurry of negative posts about these fine chargers has me
> > > concerned, because in my
> > > opinion, for the money there 'is' no better charger.
> >
> > negative post ? I think there just talking about ways not to use the
> charger
> >
> > With my work truck , I'm plugging into all kinds of outlets at different
> > peoples houses through the day , , I know what there braker's can handle
> and
> > turn the knob to suck out the max amount of power ( which is about %20
> more
> > that what I could pull with my old bad boy chargers) then go to work, .
My
> > PFC 30 keeps pulling a steady flow from there outlets and don't back off
> > till it hits the trip voltage.
> >
> >
> > ! The quality of construction is top notch, the tech support is
> > instantaneous and
> > > courteous, and the versatility of going from a 120 volt charging to a
> 240
> > > charging with a
> > > few easily assembled adapters and the use of the 'AMPS' knob, is super
> > > convenient and adds
> > > flexibility to charging your EV.
> > >
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> That pretty well sez it, above. Yeah an on board Amp meter would
be
> nice on the pfc -20, but I'm knit picking. I can drive home from the
Train@
> about 7pm and plugitin and the car is charged by the time I go to bed.
After
> a 26 mile up hill run, mostly at Turnpike speeds 60 plus. Plug it into
ether
> 120 0r 240. I never realized that it would run on DC, too?? Duz it care
> about polarity? I mean on the ac or imput side? And I can charge the Elec
> trac or anything else, without smoking any outlets and cords! That's a
> biggie from a confermed Bad Boy guy.
>
> Oh I COULD live without my PFC-20, but why would I want to? I feel
that
> we need to suport Manzanita Micro, as Rich is working on other cool stuff.
> Fast charging is where it's at, for EV's anyhow. The infrastructure is in
> place, or electricity is common in USA and Canada, dare I say most of the
> livable World? Maximizing charging efficiency is where it's at, nowadaze.
> This has to be part of the EB Evolution=revolution.
>
> Seeya Sat?
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm getting a super deal on some Deka pro-master flooded lead acids,
and they have terminals on them that ultimately represent
automotive-style ones, except they've got the sides lopped off and a
horizontal bolt hole drilled through them. Assuming that I don't want
to start cutting these off and casting new terminals or anything like
that, what is the best way to connect these? With automotive style
clamps, or with flat drilled terminals? Thanks for any input!
Matt Holthausen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Even the Buck enhanced chargers...
All you have to do is unplug the black and Orange sensor cable, and put the
jumper back on the controller, and you are DC ready. Takes about 2 minutes
even counting taking out the screws.
You need to keep in mind that the charger can almost get it self in trouble
making and pulling %30 more amps that I want it to. Keep the amps knob down
or you will have some smoke issues.
Don't ask it to make more than it's sold to you as... 20 30 or 40 amps. I
have seen a PFC30 without the Buck sensor make 60 amps....This is not going
to last for long at this level.
The best thing is ti E-mail me, and I can walk you through the
particulars.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
> Plug it into ether
> > 120 0r 240. I never realized that it would run on DC, too?? Duz it care
> > about polarity? I mean on the ac or imput side?
>
> I believe just the stock 20's and stock 50's not anything that is buck
> inhanced.
>
>
> I feel that
> > we need to suport Manzanita Micro, as Rich is working on other cool
stuff.
> > Fast charging is where it's at, for EV's anyhow.
>
> yep , its a good place to spend your money .
> .
> >
> > Seeya Sat?
> Maybe when Jerry gets the first freedom car going , we'll have a ev rally
up
> there , I'll put a gen in the back of the pu and drive up there , oops ,
> that's another thing pfc's are good for , getting the most out of your gen
.
> steve clunn
>
> > Bob
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Uh, 12 feet squared or (12 squared) feet, one is 144 sq feet or an
> area measurement and the other is a measure of length. it is a simple
> typographic convention that is the issue. The parenthesis
> were just in the wrong place . The equations on the web sites have no
> parenthesis .
>
> fixed
> Cp = (10 )1.25Amps x 20 hr = 355.6 Ahr
No.
The value "10" in the "fixed" equation has dimensions of amps since it
was obtained by taking the C/20 capacity (in Ah) and dividing by the
discharge time (in hours): Ah / h = amps.
> I agree units must match, we were required(and it is good practice) to
> work all equations thru with units only, if the units worked then we
ran
> numbers. The other side to this philophy is when it is obvious, the
> extra parenthisis can be dropped. Hince the web-sites.
Parentheses may be dropped or included as required for clarity, however
their presence or absence does not change the fact that the equation
must be able to be worked through with units only. If it does not work
with units only, then it cannot work with numbers.
(X amps)^n = (X^n) amps^n
(X amps)^n * Y hours = (X^n)*Y amps^n-hours
Parentheses are used above for clarity, not to imply that I am forcing
the units to be manipulated differently than if the parenthesisation
were different.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Think about this equation for a minute. The constant, also
> known as Cp, is the batteries Ah capacity at the 1 amp rate.
> That is to say, that no matter what power you raise 1 amp
> too the answer is 1. So in Lee's example the Cp is 355.6 Ah.
No. 1^n = 1 true enough, but not so for the units:
(1 amp)^n = 1 amp^n
(If this is not obvious, consider 1ft x 1ft = (1ft)^2 = 1 ft^2.)
Hence the issue with Cp *not* having units of Ah for any value of n
other than 1.
Cp is a useful constant, but it does not have units of Ah and cannot
accurately be used in calculations involving values that do have units
of Ah. It may be that as long as n is near 1.0 the error is small, but
if one really wants accurate results then Cp must be used in a way that
respects the actual units.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A PDF of the pro master battery line with an illustration of the
terminal type is at http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/pdfs/0248.pdf
. It is the 'G' type terminal (found on the right of the second page.)
Matt Holthausen
970.846.2514
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Somebody must know....
Marv asked for a source of parts and Suhas Malghan posted the link to
smallparts.com. Thanks, At that site I located
the parts I needed for my welder.
Now I need a part for my controller. this is a small 2 piece nylon? part that
is used instead of a screw/nut to hold a
TO-220 to it's heatsink. The piece had three fingers that go through the hole
in the transistor and heatsink and a
pin that then presses into the 3 fingers through the hole from the other side,
spreading them apart and tightening
them in the hole.
My electronic supplier knew what I was talking about, but doesn't know what
their called and doesn't carrry them.
So, anybody know what they are called, and/or where I can find them. Mine
melted. So did the MOSFET (IRF540N) it was
holding.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Humphrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Now I need a part for my controller. this is a small 2 piece
> nylon? part that is used instead of a screw/nut to hold a
> TO-220 to it's heatsink. The piece had three fingers that go
> through the hole in the transistor and heatsink and a pin
> that then presses into the 3 fingers through the hole from
> the other side, spreading them apart and tightening them in the hole.
>
> My electronic supplier knew what I was talking about, but
> doesn't know what their called and doesn't carrry them.
>
> So, anybody know what they are called, and/or where I can
> find them. Mine melted. So did the MOSFET (IRF540N) it was holding.
I realise this isn't really answering your question, but I would suggest
replacing that nylon part with a nylon bolt and washer (or a metal bolt
and washer with a standard insulating bushing to maintain electical
isoaltion from the TO220's tab). The nylon part you are describing
cannot apply any significant pressure to the TO220 to keep it in good
thermal contact with the heatsink. It may be a good choice for
fast/cheap production, but a more labour-intensive bolt+nut will more
securely hold the device to the heatsink and should improve the
reliability of the controller.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And use a good heatsink contact dope, such as the type used on CPU chips in
computers.
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:41 PM
Subject: RE: small part needed
Tim Humphrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Now I need a part for my controller. this is a small 2 piece
nylon? part that is used instead of a screw/nut to hold a
TO-220 to it's heatsink. The piece had three fingers that go
through the hole in the transistor and heatsink and a pin
that then presses into the 3 fingers through the hole from
the other side, spreading them apart and tightening them in the hole.
My electronic supplier knew what I was talking about, but
doesn't know what their called and doesn't carrry them.
So, anybody know what they are called, and/or where I can
find them. Mine melted. So did the MOSFET (IRF540N) it was holding.
I realise this isn't really answering your question, but I would suggest
replacing that nylon part with a nylon bolt and washer (or a metal bolt
and washer with a standard insulating bushing to maintain electical
isoaltion from the TO220's tab). The nylon part you are describing
cannot apply any significant pressure to the TO220 to keep it in good
thermal contact with the heatsink. It may be a good choice for
fast/cheap production, but a more labour-intensive bolt+nut will more
securely hold the device to the heatsink and should improve the
reliability of the controller.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Jul 2005 at 13:04, Matt Holthausen wrote:
> horizontal bolt hole drilled through them.
I've used lugs on those with no problems. Use a belleville washer if you
can, or at least a split lockwasher.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm trying to understand the reasons (pro's/con's) for advancing motors,
specifically an ETEK. The application is a small motorcycle with an ETEK
running at 48V, with a higher amperage, 450 to 600A, controller. I have been
told that for increased performance, I should advance the timing of the
motor, and for the ETEK it appears simple enough to do.
>From what I understand, at higher voltages, advanced timing helps with the
brush arcing. Is this a concern at 48V? The bike is mostly ridden for
performance (racing), but does occasionally get ridden for cruising around
the neighborhood, etc.
So, with advanced timing, will the performance increase be noticeable at
all? How does the timing affect initial torque/power? Is the gain more
noticeable at top speeds?
To advance the timing on the ETEK, it appears the bolts on the casing can be
loosened and turned, but should it be rotated in the direction of rotation
or against the rotation?
Does anyone have any good info on ETEK tuning or know of any good sites?
Thanks in advance for the help...
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In response to "pusher trailer option"
I was planning on doing something similar to my grand am
First I want to put a string of batteries under the rear deck, this is
above the rear wheels on a car that is already front heavy, so less
handling impact.
I will convert the brakes to a vacuum pump, AC and power stering to a
seperate motor and drive around like that finding out how much battery
use just for those 3
then I will buy a set of front spindles and put them in back, it looks
like they will bolt on. This will allow some halff shafts to a motor
that I will bolt a standard 3rd member to.
Here are the caveots. I need a hollow shaft low profile and long motor
to fit on the rear trailing arm, BLDC or sepex?
Controller will have to be "intellegent" deciding on level of brakeing
and assist based on pack SOC, speed, and demand.
This will be plug in hybrid, turning on key will unlock steering, allow
me to put it in neutral, start vacumm pump and power steering and allow
use of antilock brake system and stereo and turn signals.
The BLDC motor can help with the braking needs now increased rear
weight and can help accelerate the ICE for those times where FUN is a
priority (when is it not?)
The ICE comes on when the organic processor decides it is needed and
then I just pull it down into drive. ( Can I do this while I am in motion?)
If I can figure this out and it actually increases my fuel mileage when
used as a hybrid, there are lots of front wheel drives that could accept
such an after market hybridization
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Shawn and All,
--- Shawn Waggoner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm trying to understand the reasons (pro's/con's)
> for advancing motors,
> specifically an ETEK. The application is a small
> motorcycle with an ETEK
> running at 48V, with a higher amperage, 450 to 600A,
> controller. I have been
I wouldn't use over a 330 amp controller on the
Etek if you want it to live.
The best controller is the Sevcon one that's a
direct match for it and has regen for added range and
even reverse if needed plus costs less.
I can speak from costly experience that Eteks do
not take high amps well so best to have a controller
that either will not put out more than rated amps, 330
in this case, or one you can turn down.
My commutator melted from too many amps though not
much more as it had a resistor in series at the time
on 36vdc.
Not doing this will be costly.
I'd think advancing an Etek especially one that
doesn't reverse would help it but don't know enough to
be positive.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
> told that for increased performance, I should
> advance the timing of the
> motor, and for the ETEK it appears simple enough to
> do.
>
> >From what I understand, at higher voltages,
> advanced timing helps with the
> brush arcing. Is this a concern at 48V? The bike is
> mostly ridden for
> performance (racing), but does occasionally get
> ridden for cruising around
> the neighborhood, etc.
>
> So, with advanced timing, will the performance
> increase be noticeable at
> all? How does the timing affect initial
> torque/power? Is the gain more
> noticeable at top speeds?
>
> To advance the timing on the ETEK, it appears the
> bolts on the casing can be
> loosened and turned, but should it be rotated in the
> direction of rotation
> or against the rotation?
>
> Does anyone have any good info on ETEK tuning or
> know of any good sites?
>
> Thanks in advance for the help...
>
> --
> Shawn M. Waggoner
> Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
> http://www.floridaeaa.org
> Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
>
>
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A Technical College down the street where given free batteries with this type
of connection. The problem they had was the lead post seem to be too soft and
the bolt on spade terminal with a large washer torque to the correct specs. of
75 inch lbs. Batteries with stud type terminals in the 260 AH range are torque
to 100 inch lbs.
These connections would flatten these connections until the lead bolt hole
would crack. To fix this, they use stainless hard drawn tubing that was the
same inside diameter as the lead post.
They were cut into 1 inch lengths and than cut in half and a bolt hole was
drill into it, making it a curve washer that wrap around the post to help
reinforce it.
This held up longer. It could have been this type of batteries with too soft a
connection. Also they were drawing 400 amps on a 36 volt unit that melted down
some of the connections.
Something to watch for.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Matt Holthausen<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 1:04 PM
Subject: Battery connection question
I'm getting a super deal on some Deka pro-master flooded lead acids,
and they have terminals on them that ultimately represent
automotive-style ones, except they've got the sides lopped off and a
horizontal bolt hole drilled through them. Assuming that I don't want
to start cutting these off and casting new terminals or anything like
that, what is the best way to connect these? With automotive style
clamps, or with flat drilled terminals? Thanks for any input!
Matt Holthausen
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Shawn
For specific info I might suggest contacting the folks who seem to get the
most NEDRA records using the Etek-
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/
NEDRA Record Holders-
http://nedra.com/record_holders.html
Shawn Waggoner wrote:
I'm trying to understand the reasons (pro's/con's) for advancing motors,
specifically an ETEK. The application is a small motorcycle with an ETEK
running at 48V, with a higher amperage, 450 to 600A, controller. I have
been
told that for increased performance, I should advance the timing of the
motor, and for the ETEK it appears simple enough to do.
>From what I understand, at higher voltages, advanced timing helps with
the
brush arcing. Is this a concern at 48V? The bike is mostly ridden for
performance (racing), but does occasionally get ridden for cruising around
the neighborhood, etc.
So, with advanced timing, will the performance increase be noticeable at
all? How does the timing affect initial torque/power? Is the gain more
noticeable at top speeds?
To advance the timing on the ETEK, it appears the bolts on the casing can
be
loosened and turned, but should it be rotated in the direction of rotation
or against the rotation?
Does anyone have any good info on ETEK tuning or know of any good sites?
Thanks in advance for the help...
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
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I have an 8" Imperial motor. 36 Volts and 80 Amps.
I spoke with the factory about advancing.
Simple: Twist until the current is maximum!
Measure current: Take a 12 Volt battery, use a bare #10 wire about 18"
long to feed the motor. Place two contacts about 12" apart. Alligator
clips will do. Use a multimeter on the DC mill volt scale.
Twist for maximum mill volts. Max current means max time of brush contact
or max power.
Reverse not optimized but who cares?
Quite easy to do! Takes only a few minutes.
BoyntonStu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Shawn Waggoner
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 4:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Advancing ETEK motors
I'm trying to understand the reasons (pro's/con's) for advancing motors,
specifically an ETEK. The application is a small motorcycle with an ETEK
running at 48V, with a higher amperage, 450 to 600A, controller. I have been
told that for increased performance, I should advance the timing of the
motor, and for the ETEK it appears simple enough to do.
>From what I understand, at higher voltages, advanced timing helps with the
brush arcing. Is this a concern at 48V? The bike is mostly ridden for
performance (racing), but does occasionally get ridden for cruising around
the neighborhood, etc.
So, with advanced timing, will the performance increase be noticeable at
all? How does the timing affect initial torque/power? Is the gain more
noticeable at top speeds?
To advance the timing on the ETEK, it appears the bolts on the casing can be
loosened and turned, but should it be rotated in the direction of rotation
or against the rotation?
Does anyone have any good info on ETEK tuning or know of any good sites?
Thanks in advance for the help...
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
I'm not sure if this is applicable to your idea, but many automatic
transmissions don't receive lubrication without the engine running
(front pump) and tend to blow up when coasted around in neutral for too
long. Learned the hard way while towing a car...
Matt Holthausen
970.846.2514
On Jul 8, 2005, at 2:06 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
In response to "pusher trailer option"
I was planning on doing something similar to my grand am
First I want to put a string of batteries under the rear deck, this is
above the rear wheels on a car that is already front heavy, so less
handling impact.
I will convert the brakes to a vacuum pump, AC and power stering to a
seperate motor and drive around like that finding out how much battery
use just for those 3
then I will buy a set of front spindles and put them in back, it looks
like they will bolt on. This will allow some halff shafts to a motor
that I will bolt a standard 3rd member to.
Here are the caveots. I need a hollow shaft low profile and long motor
to fit on the rear trailing arm, BLDC or sepex?
Controller will have to be "intellegent" deciding on level of brakeing
and assist based on pack SOC, speed, and demand.
This will be plug in hybrid, turning on key will unlock steering,
allow me to put it in neutral, start vacumm pump and power steering
and allow use of antilock brake system and stereo and turn signals.
The BLDC motor can help with the braking needs now increased rear
weight and can help accelerate the ICE for those times where FUN is a
priority (when is it not?)
The ICE comes on when the organic processor decides it is needed and
then I just pull it down into drive. ( Can I do this while I am in
motion?)
If I can figure this out and it actually increases my fuel mileage
when used as a hybrid, there are lots of front wheel drives that could
accept such an after market hybridization
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> I agree it is awkward and inconvenient. It's not what people want to do,
> it's what they *have* to do under the circumstances.
Why don't they move and live closer to where they work?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Three passenger front seat. Car nuts would be appaled at us converting but
> it is a very unique car. Make a great glider. Way ahead of it's time.
How many batteries will that car hold? Think there's still enough
room for the charger and controller?
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I wouldn't use over a 330 amp controller on the Etek if you want it to
live.
Is this really the consensus? I've seen a lot of race rides with ETEKs
juiced up beyond 330A. What about Brian's dual etek and baby zilla
cycle? What about the monster pocket bikes? Aren't there many examples
of ETEKs running at above 330A?
Just curious.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
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Wait wait ...
I think I'm misunderstanding Crem and Cprem. I was setting both to be
equal to X (X being the capacity), then subtracting from each.
I was always subtracting I * T from Crem and I^n*t _or_ I * M * T from
Cprem (depending on the current rate)
I think what I should be doing is:
Set Crem and Cprem to zero at full charge.
If I <= 20 hour rate, then add I * M * To Crem
If I > 20 hour rate, add I ^ n * T to Cprem
In the end, Crem + Cprem = Ah used
Or am I way off?
Paul G. wrote:
On Jul 8, 2005, at 8:40 AM, Eric Poulsen wrote:
Hold on there ... I've gotten exactly the results as described in the
document. However, my question is: What good are these numbers in
estimating true SOC. You end up with two different capacity variables
(Crem and Cprem), both of which you can use to get a "percentage of
charge," but they're different, and the CECO document implies this by
saying "... Therefore a 20 hr discharge at 10 A would deplete the 100%
of the battery capacity using Crem or Cprem at the same rate." When
using the 20-hour rate, they do indeed match exactly (percentage-wise),
but diverge at different rates.
My understanding is that the e-meter does calculate the two different
numbers. Cprem is based on the concept of Peukert, adjusted for 20
hour discharge (I^n * Ti = [I sub-2]^n * 20 Cprem is I sub-2). If
Cprem is greater than Crem then Cprem is subtracted from the 20 hour
capacity. If Crem is greater than Cprem then Crem is subtracted from
the 20 hour Ah capacity. Thus anytime the amps are lower than the C20
rate the actual Ah in that sampling period are subtracted. Anytime the
amps are above the C20 rate the adjusted (Cprem) Ah in that sampling
period are subtracted.
Seems more complex than working off of the Cp, but Peukert's formula
is not perfect and tends to overestimate available capacity at very
slow (relative to battery size) discharge rates.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt Holthausen wrote:
> A PDF of the pro master battery line with an illustration of the
> terminal type is at http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/pdfs/0248.pdf
About the battery in the picture, why in the world did they bother to
move the terminal over like that?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I probably shouldn't write this but it's a bad day so I apoligize in advance.
Well for one example of the millions possible.
Short answer: The only job I could find was in NYC and I can't afford to live
anywhere near there so I ride my bike to the train station, many people drive,
and take a 90minute ride to work. Luckily for me they moved my job to Texas so
I could afford to live close enough to the office to sqeak home and not kill my
batteries, can't ride my bike though. And no my work does not allow
telecommuting unless I am sick. I have to take a sick day to telecommute hrm
I'm starting to see what may be the problem here :-)
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
> I agree it is awkward and inconvenient. It's not what people want to do,
> it's what they *have* to do under the circumstances.
Why don't they move and live closer to where they work?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the conservative consensus is to stay with the rating or around 300A
to help protect the motor from damage. However, this isn't the plan... Lots
of folks have been running these at higher currents for racing and they
survive just fine. I think Darin Gilbert runs his dual ETEK bike and peaks
around 1000 or so amps. This is only for a few seconds though.
I know some folks have had major failures drawing high currents for longer
periods of time, or climbing long steep hills like in California, but the
time duration that the motors see the higher currents is only for a very
short period.
I'm not so much worried about the high current, but wanted to know about the
performance increase or gain from advancing the motor. I guess what I am
really wanting to understand is the "why" of advancing, what happens to the
performance between neutral timing and advanced timing on the ETEK motors.
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ken Trough
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
> I wouldn't use over a 330 amp controller on the Etek if you want it to
> live.
Is this really the consensus? I've seen a lot of race rides with ETEKs
juiced up beyond 330A. What about Brian's dual etek and baby zilla
cycle? What about the monster pocket bikes? Aren't there many examples
of ETEKs running at above 330A?
Just curious.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stu or Jan wrote:
> For trips beyond 20 use the ICE. For a 40mph commute 10 miles, the
> battery/motor should not be that beefy or add to much weight to the 1825 lb
> Metro.
Considering gasoline might be on the way out, why don't we just focus
on long range total electric?
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2005/06/saudi_oil_bombshell.html
It doesn't matter if your burning propane, natural gas, E85, or bio
diesel. You burn that stuff, you pollute the air with it.
It's much more convenient to just plug the vehicle in once you get home.
How much range do you need anyways BoyntonStu?
--- End Message ---
