EV Digest 4490
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Advancing ETEK motors
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: OT: Another idea that probably won't work
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: small part needed
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Engine Generator Question
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Details !!!! Re: Engine Generator Question
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Engine Generator: Pusher trailer option re: Jerry
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: OT: Another idea that probably won't work
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Advancing ETEK motors
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Transmission idea's
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Details !!!! Re: Engine Generator Question
by Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery connection question (addendum)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: State of Charge calculations
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Engine Generator Question
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I could also measure the motor current with a clamp-on meter to get the same
results I guess. So, what you are saying is that with an advanced motor, the
amps at a given voltage/rpm will be increased resulting in more torque? Is
that correct?
Like you say, I am not concerned about reverse on the motorcycle.
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stu or Jan
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Advancing ETEK motors
I have an 8" Imperial motor. 36 Volts and 80 Amps.
I spoke with the factory about advancing.
Simple: Twist until the current is maximum!
Measure current: Take a 12 Volt battery, use a bare #10 wire about 18"
long to feed the motor. Place two contacts about 12" apart. Alligator
clips will do. Use a multimeter on the DC mill volt scale.
Twist for maximum mill volts. Max current means max time of brush contact
or max power.
Reverse not optimized but who cares?
Quite easy to do! Takes only a few minutes.
BoyntonStu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Shawn Waggoner
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 4:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Advancing ETEK motors
I'm trying to understand the reasons (pro's/con's) for advancing motors,
specifically an ETEK. The application is a small motorcycle with an ETEK
running at 48V, with a higher amperage, 450 to 600A, controller. I have been
told that for increased performance, I should advance the timing of the
motor, and for the ETEK it appears simple enough to do.
>From what I understand, at higher voltages, advanced timing helps with the
brush arcing. Is this a concern at 48V? The bike is mostly ridden for
performance (racing), but does occasionally get ridden for cruising around
the neighborhood, etc.
So, with advanced timing, will the performance increase be noticeable at
all? How does the timing affect initial torque/power? Is the gain more
noticeable at top speeds?
To advance the timing on the ETEK, it appears the bolts on the casing can be
loosened and turned, but should it be rotated in the direction of rotation
or against the rotation?
Does anyone have any good info on ETEK tuning or know of any good sites?
Thanks in advance for the help...
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:18 PM 7/8/2005, you wrote:
I probably shouldn't write this but it's a bad day so I apoligize in advance.
Well for one example of the millions possible.
Short answer: The only job I could find was in NYC and I can't afford to
live anywhere near there so I ride my bike to the train station, many
people drive, and take a 90minute ride to work. Luckily for me they moved
my job to Texas so I could afford to live close enough to the office to
sqeak home and not kill my batteries, can't ride my bike though. And no my
work does not allow telecommuting unless I am sick. I have to take a sick
day to telecommute hrm I'm starting to see what may be the problem here :-)
At first glance it seems there are two groups of people living in a city
like NYC. One group can afford to live there and the second can not afford
to leave. The first group does not have to work and the second does not
have the education to do the work so the workers have to be imported every day.
"With or without religion you would have good people doing good things and
evil people doing evil things.
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
- Dr. Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate, Physics
__________
Andre' B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken Trough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I wouldn't use over a 330 amp controller on the Etek if
> > you want it to live.
>
> Is this really the consensus? I've seen a lot of race rides
> with ETEKs juiced up beyond 330A.
It is a time at amps issue.
The Etek is rated for 300A for 30 seconds (or 330A for 1 minute,
depending on whose specs you read), and 20HP peak/8HP continuous or 15HP
peak/6HP continuous, again depending whose specs you read.
There will be some ultimate maximum current that results in immediate
failure, and the drag racers may be able to advise us as to where this
might be, but below that level it is a matter of how long the current
can be sustained before the comm/motor overheats.
Drag racing results in fairly low duty cycle operation (i.e. the motor
may be run hard, but it is only run for at most a few tens of seconds
and then allowed to rest for some number of minutes), so fairly high
currents can be tolerated. For street use, even a 300A controller could
kill the Etek if it is able to sustain a motor current high enough for
long enough. Ideally, you want a controller that will thermally derate
its output to a safe level before the motor fries. That is, don't use a
500A controller turned down to 300A and think you're safe because the
controller will probably be able to sustain 300A for longer than the
motor can. Use a 300A controller that will heat up and derate before
the motor overheats (i.e. it shouldn't sustain 300A for more than
30s-1min before derating, and should derate to a continous current that
is no more than the motor's 1hr rating, for instance).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:41 PM 8/07/05 -0700, you wrote:
Tim Humphrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Now I need a part for my controller. this is a small 2 piece
> nylon? part that is used instead of a screw/nut to hold a
> TO-220 to it's heatsink. The piece had three fingers that
They used a plastic rivet to hold a device to a heatsink? Ack! they are
designed for light tasks such as to hold insulation panels hard against
PCBs to stop people touching the board (or the case touching the board if
it gets dented). Who made your controller? Others with the same controller
may need to change the rivet to a proper fastener.
I realise this isn't really answering your question, but I would suggest
replacing that nylon part with a nylon bolt and washer (or a metal bolt
and washer with a standard insulating bushing to maintain electical
isoaltion from the TO220's tab). <snip>
Roger.
Most definately agreed.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 05:22:05 -0700 (PDT), Dave Cover
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Don't you think that's getting a little silly? Anyone you know
>> (outside of a Cannonball Baker rally driver, perhaps) ever actually
>> driven 1000 miles in a day?
>>
>
>I'm very interested in this and I can think of lot's of non-silly reasons. I'm
>planning on a 50
>mile range for my car. It's primary job will be as a daily commuter. I'll be
>keeping the pickup
>for dump runs, hauling firewood, etc.
Oh, the range extender is fine. I thought spending the money for a
1000 mile per day unit to be getting a bit silly. Only the extreme
iron butts can drive like that.
>
>But I can think of plenty of uses for the range trailer. My parents are 8
>hours away, I'd love to
>be able to get there. My friend lives an hour away, I might be able to get
>there, but then I'd
>have to wait while I charged it up before I could show off. And I'd have to
>make sure it's fully
>charged before trying to get home. This years Tour de Sol was about 4 hours
>from here. The Boston
>area has plenty of events, 2-3 hours away. Power of DC was 6.5 hours from here
>and that trip cost
>me $100 in gas without dragging a trailer. I backpack every year in the White
>Mountains, 5 hours
>away. Limerock Park (racetrack) is a little over an hour of hilly driving from
>here. I'd hate to
>have to buy a car trailer and then haul the EV everywhere I wanted to go. And
>a car trailer is not
>cheap! Think of the nice range extender could you build for the price of a car
>trailer.
All these applications just scream for a true hybrid or a gas car.
One can certainly build an extender trailer for less than the price of
a car but I don't know relative to the cost of a car trailer. In any
event, I very seriously doubt that a single individual working at home
is going to be able to design one AND obtain the necessary components
to make one as efficient and as clean as an OEM hybrid. It's going to
be very difficult to overcome the losses associated with the
conversion to and from electricity.
>
>For my daily commute, I can do everything I need without any range extenders.
>But I could use one
>almost every month. I also plan on building an EV for my wife. With two EVs in
>the family, what
>are the chances that one of us forgets to watch the emeter and runs out of
>juice too far from
>home. And not next to a plug. We've all run out of gas at least once, right?
>Well, drag that
>trailer to where the car died, hook it up and drive away. No waiting.
True. I always carry a small generator in my EV. I just hate facing
that "can I make it?" question when the consequence is a tow or a cab
ride back home for the truck.
My argument is simply that for most people it is impractical to try to
make a range extender capable of running the car indefinitely, e.g.,
one large enough to supply the several kW necessary for cruise power.
If one allows stops for recharging during long trips, then the range
extender becomes much more practical.
I think my approach would be the hybrid pusher trailer that several
others have already constructed in one form or another. An engine and
transaxle connected to the trailer wheels, with a suitably large
generator also attached to the engine for charging the EV. I'd also
want it automated so that both the EV and the pusher were controlled
by the EV accelerator pedal. If you take the drivetrain and control
system intact from the doner car then you gain the efficiency and
emissions control of the OEM setup.
>Just my view, not trying to start a war.
Me neither. Too bad everything seems to turn into a war. This is the
only list I'm on where that happens. Sad.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter, John and All,
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
.
> >> Though the large one could increase your daily
> >>range to 200/250miles or so with a RAV4 EV.
> >> My goal is 1,000 miles per day or more, just
> like
> >>any car has, even 24hrs/day with 2 drivers.
> >
> > Don't you think that's getting a little silly?
> Anyone you know
> > (outside of a Cannonball Baker rally driver,
> perhaps) ever actually
> > driven 1000 miles in a day?
> >
Beside Peter, the others and me, yes!!! Of course I
do it for several reasons but mostly as I'm cheap and
don't want to waste money on motel rooms, the extra
road meals needed, the time wasted going cross country
and extra wages lost.
>
> Sure <raises hand> a serveral times. Plus numerous
> trips to my daughters
> house and back, 960 miles each way. Seems kinda
> silly to stop with only a
> couple hours to go, so we always did it in one trip
> (14-15 hours,
> depending on breaks)
>
> > If the car can run on as little a 600 wh/mile at
> 60 mph (can any
> > currently available EV actually run that
> efficiently over the long
> > term in traffic and dealing with elevations?),
> you're looking at a
> > power requirement of 36kw.
>
> Umm, that's a tad high, I'd say 15-20 kwh is more
You think!!
> accurate for typical
> EVs. Jerry will probably disagree (and insist it's
> much lower) but he
> tends to be wildly optimistic.
Of course I disagree, what would you expect ;-))
But my disgreements are based on facts. My
E woody gets MOL 100wthrs/mile from the plug at 45mph
proven by plugging in to an AC power pole type
electric meter divided by the miles driven. I did this
many times commuting to work over 2 yrs.
It's CD is about .38 or so with cheap tires with
35lbs in them , a 2 speed contactor controller with a
resistor for starting and a full power speed contactor
running 150 amps with 4 gge wire, no doors so not
optimized at all. But it weighs only 1,000lbs!!!
So I expect that my new optimized composite
Freedom EV with a CD of about .24, low resistance
tires, PWM controller, 1,300lb, 2 more eff motors
series/parallel with a higher gear ratio to do about
100wthr/mile at 60mph which isn't that hard as you are
going 33% more miles.
Also I'm not the only person getting this low
power level as John Bryan? gets the same in his VW
Ghia at a fair more weight, slightly worse aero though
slightly lower frontal area.
Now compare that to most lead mine conversions
weighing 2-4 times as much with much worse CD and
frontal area and it's no wonder you all get
250-600wthrs/mile and why I refuse to build such
ineff, costly machines.
Of course that's because I'm cheap both for
materials to build such a beast but also so much
electricity to run it. I'm proud of my $.01/mile
electric fuel cost. Mine can compete head on with
ICE's on a cost bassis and win including battery costs
by a lot!! Can yours?
My total costs including title/tag, materials,
batts ,maintance, electric, ect over 8 yrs on the E
woody has been $170/yr!!
Also the drag curves from EV of America also
bear this out with projecting under 6kw to do 60mph.
So a 7-8kw gen will work fine for what I want to do.
For your bloated EV conversions, then yes, you
will need more as I've always said, about
5-7kw/1,000lbs of EV depending on it's eff.
So for your say 4,000lb EV, yes you would need
20-25kw of gen to do 65mph steady.
But again, I refuse to build such a wasteful
vehicle. EV's to be really eff, cost effective, must
be built as EV's, not an overweight conversion to be
truly good, eff as mine is.
No?
>
> > Even stopping for 30 minutes every hour for rest
> and recharge only
> > reduces the power requirement to 24kw. And that
> assumes there are
> > batteries that can take that kind of
> charge/discharge rate
> > continuously.
>
> My pickup (far from efficient) uses approx 15kw at
> 60 mph on flat ground.
> Figure a bit more in the hills (lots more going up,
> zero kw coming down,
MOL even's out.
> possibly regen if your vehicle has it). A
> reasonably efficient, full size
> EV could easily average 15-20 kw/h at 60 mph.
An overweight lead mine maybe!!
> If you are actually getting 10 kw from the genny,
> then you only need 5-10
> from the batteries. A decnet set of Lithium
> whatever batteries could
> probably last 4 hours before needing to recharge.
> Have a nice leasurly
> meal and the genny could put it back in a couple
> hours, less if there is
> opertunity charging available.
>
> > Oh, I suppose that depends on which variety of
> alternate reality you
> > believe in. If your alternate reality says that
> building that spare
> > car causes any "pollution", or at least any more
> than building a
> > generator or turbine, then the obvious solution is
> to either rent or
> > co-op a pool car for long trips.
>
> and in the long run, possibly cheaper too.
Have you rented lately?? I built the E woody for
10 days of rental!!!
If I were to build a gen for it would cost under
$250 using good used parts!!
>
> >> While the gas tanks may seem small, 1.85gal
> for
> >>the engine I'll use, that gives me 200 mile range
> on
> >>gas alone,
>
> See what I mean about wildly optimistic? While this
Since you easily get 11-12kw from a gal of gas in
a DC gen and I get 100wthrs/mile, then what would be
optimistic?
> is doable, I'm not
> going to hold my breath waiting for something to
> come out of Jerry's
> workshop that can do it. (That's a challenge Jerry,
> 'cause I know how
> much you like a challenge ;)
The molds are at the builder being done as we
speak though I had to change builders as the last one
did good work but way too slow. Had he not been slow,
the first bodies would be ready for assembly by now
but soon come mon!!
This new one also builds kit car bodies, wants to
build EV's and also builds boats.
>
> >
> > Why not just buy a hybrid, pile the trunk or rear
John, what do you think I'm doing!!!! I would
have thought that was obvious. It's just that it's an
EV dominated hybrid with enough range where the ICE
needs to be use only 5-25% of the time depending on
it's use. Other hybrids are just too ineff to use
except maybe the Insight with Li-ions.
To be honest I have people coming out of the
woodwork to wanting buy these and haven't even offered
them for sale!!! 2 more today!! And won't until I have
one done for sale as I don't believe in that.
Or wait a couple years, I believe Mitsubishi is
> promissing a plug in
> hybrid within 5 years.
Now where have we heard that before?
Though they are doing some
> pretty amazing stuff
> hacking the prius now.
>
Great idea, do you have $45k+?
My goal is to bring an affordable EV most
everyone can afford, maintain with 70-100 mile range,
80mph for $13k with unlimited hybrid range as an
option. I don't see any of you doing it. Why? Scared?
If you were really into EV's, you would give
solutions instead of just saying it can't be done,
putting it down. Why don't you be part of the solution
instead of being the problem?
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>Jeff,
>>I'm not sure if this is applicable to your idea, but many automatic
transmissions don't receive lubrication without the engine running
(front pump) and tend to blow up when >>coastedaround in neutral for too
long. Learned the hard way while towing a car...
>>Matt Holthausen
>>970.846.2514
Very good point and the pump is internal, Maybe I could create a small
amont of pressure by using a pump on the cooling line and a check valve,
just enough to lubricate.
I actually thought of just letting the ICE idle and leave it in neutral.
Use a hand throttle for the EV drive. Better just to put a stick in it i
guess
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 08:19:01 -0700, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Neon John wrote:
>> The common fallacy with all these otherwise good ideas is the
>> concept that anyone outside any of the... megacities is going
>> to drive to a station, unload all his goodies, lug 'em to a train,
>> have to bump elbows with... others, lug the stuff off at the
>> other end and then either walk or drive another vehicle the
>> rest of his way to his destination. Just ain't gonna happen.
>
>Actually, it *does* happen every day. Certainly thousands, if not
>millions of commuters drive to a Park-n-Ride, leave their car and take
>the train, and upon arrival either walk or take another vehicle to their
>final destination.
Of course they do, in the cesspool megacities. I did that for awhile
until I could escape. Nobody not forced by circumstance to do this is
going to, however. What I want to see is people WANT to do an
alternative to port to port driving because of the convenience and
cost savings.
>> Something that would have a much closer chance of being accepted is a
>> station car setup whereby the standardized electric car is driven onto
>> an autonomous piggy-back rail car that might hold 8 or 10 e-cars.
>> When the car fills up, it takes off. Instead of trying to accommodate
>> every type of car on the market, only cars built to a tight
>> dimensional spec would be accepted. This standardized dimensional
>> spec would also permit very dense parking at destinations, manual or
>> automated.
>
>I like this idea, too. I see Rick Woodbury's Tango as ideally suited to
>this kind of daily commuting. I also understand one of the few popular
>Amtrak services is the CarTrain, where people going on vacation can take
>their car with them.
Yes. There is a reason for that, a reason that doesn't seem to
register with the bureaucrats.
>
>The hard part is to get the bureaucrats to stop looking backwards to the
>past for solutions, and actually think about the future.
I did a lot of work on similar concepts in the 90s including spending
a lot of money chasing government research funding (SBIR grants and
the like.) I could not find ANYONE in the transportation bureaucracy
who was capable of withdrawing their heads from dark places long
enough to consider ANY alternative that didn't involve herding people
into cattle cars.
Autonomous existence is the anathema of these aparatchiks.
Individuals are too ignorant and impulsive to be allowed to actually
take independent actions. Guidance from Big Brother is always
necessary.
It STILL chaps me to see the money wasted on transportation projects
that have zero chance of ever working. The latest fad in these parts
is a light rail line to be built between Chattanooga and Atlanta down
the middle of I-75's median. It's a darling project of the
politicians who should know better.
Now consider what Chattanooga and Atlanta have in common. Yep, we're
both spread out all over the place and a car is essential for local
travel. In both cities, the mass transit bus system is only for the
underclass. In both cities, a middle class person would need to be
armed to ride one safely. Chattanooga has no subway and Atlanta's
only covers the inside-the-beltway areas and lands in only a few
places.
If I have to get a car on the far end, then why not just drive the 120
miles between the cities directly? The only customer base that I can
see that would use the rail would be Atlanta airport customers.
Hardly enough customers to justify the billions necessary to make a
light rail. Besides, numerous private companies are already running
shuttle buses to the airport many times a day from Chattanooga. $25
pays the way and there are NO subsidies. The pols want to screw with
a private enterprise system that is already working.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Shawn Waggoner
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 6:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Advancing ETEK motors
I could also measure the motor current with a clamp-on meter to get the same
results I guess.
Yep!
So, what you are saying is that with an advanced motor, the
amps at a given voltage/rpm will be increased resulting in more torque? Is
that correct?
Yep!
Like you say, I am not concerned about reverse on the motorcycle.
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stu or Jan
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Advancing ETEK motors
I have an 8" Imperial motor. 36 Volts and 80 Amps.
I spoke with the factory about advancing.
Simple: Twist until the current is maximum!
Measure current: Take a 12 Volt battery, use a bare #10 wire about 18"
long to feed the motor. Place two contacts about 12" apart. Alligator
clips will do. Use a multimeter on the DC mill volt scale.
Twist for maximum mill volts. Max current means max time of brush contact
or max power.
Reverse not optimized but who cares?
Quite easy to do! Takes only a few minutes.
BoyntonStu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Shawn Waggoner
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 4:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Advancing ETEK motors
I'm trying to understand the reasons (pro's/con's) for advancing motors,
specifically an ETEK. The application is a small motorcycle with an ETEK
running at 48V, with a higher amperage, 450 to 600A, controller. I have been
told that for increased performance, I should advance the timing of the
motor, and for the ETEK it appears simple enough to do.
>From what I understand, at higher voltages, advanced timing helps with the
brush arcing. Is this a concern at 48V? The bike is mostly ridden for
performance (racing), but does occasionally get ridden for cruising around
the neighborhood, etc.
So, with advanced timing, will the performance increase be noticeable at
all? How does the timing affect initial torque/power? Is the gain more
noticeable at top speeds?
To advance the timing on the ETEK, it appears the bolts on the casing can be
loosened and turned, but should it be rotated in the direction of rotation
or against the rotation?
Does anyone have any good info on ETEK tuning or know of any good sites?
Thanks in advance for the help...
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Etek is rated for 300A for 30 seconds (or 330A for 1 minute,
depending on whose specs you read), and 20HP peak/8HP continuous or
15HP peak/6HP continuous, again depending whose specs you read.
I appreciate the points, but most of us know that the published specs on
many motors can be safely exceeded, sometimes by a great margin. I'm
interested in the actual limits, not the published specs.
Will an ETEK really melt down if you exceed 330A for one minute? I've
read about meltdowns, but they seem rare and usually under long and
steep climbing conditions.
I assume that forced air cooling raises these thresholds considerably?
What kind of sustained high amp draw can you pull on an ETEK with forced
air cooling? Figure a 5 minute rate, for a sustained hill climb of a
couple three miles.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been playing around with an Idea and I'd like the list's input.
I would like to create a design, and prototypes then go ahead and
produce a set of modular transmission and motor components specifically
for EV conversions and ground up conversions.
Item 1 is a hollow shaft transmission with internal clutch.
It will have either 2 or 3 speeds not counting reverse, and drum roll
please, a park.
I talked with charlie at http://www.wintersperformance.com about
there transmission and the bert or brinn trannies, the clutch is only
enguaged on these to give a person reverse or low just to get up to
speed or meet the rules that say they must start from 0 and have a
reverse. Charlie was great, a really nice person, not afraid to talk to
me. a kind of "feel free to call me if you have any more questions" type
a guy. cool. That tranny is 42 Lbs(as low as 37) with only 10 lbs
rotating in direct drive.
The idea would be that with a hollow shaft I could drop in any adapters
I need and also use it for transaxle setups
For rear wheel drives, we get rid of the power robbing 90degree turn.
options,
use planatery final drive that bolts on the end allowing straight
thru, if combined with a hollow shaft motor, this allows a transaxle at
the axle level and room for batteries or trunk space above.
use offset style final drive, more efficient but more space
use thru but offset input housing/adapter at motor
How many speeds counting high1:1 ?
Would Overdrive ever be desired in an EV gearbox?
Would a input reduction for use with AC be a nice feature ie 10K rpm
down to 5K rpm
What kind of final drive ratios would be best
we are talking about possibly 10 pieces to be manufatured and sold
the big ones are
1. offset input, this is a c-face mount to motor that drops down to
gearbox. Made about 1.5 inches thick containing sprockets and chain from
Automatic transmission parts supplier. This could serve as an opertunity
to alter the input ratio to the gearbox
or 1a the motor adapter plate for in-line use.
2. The gearbox
3. the final drive unit
or
3a tail shaft
4 remote mount shifter
5 clutch master cylinder for vehicles that need to swith from cable or
linkage.
What do you think? what do we EV'rs want in a tranny?
Next week(month) I am gonna go to the wrecking yard and chose a popular
tranny at random and just dissassemble it and see what can be commendered.
Candidates are GM 4t60-65E or older 125's
Honda
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I totally agree here...efficiency is the key. If you get 12kw per
gallon per hour then a 100Whrs/mile (@60mph, consumption is 6 Kwhrs) car
would get 60 miles per 0.5 gallon or 120 MPG at 60 MPH!
A good electrical match for the above would be a 6Kw continuous
generator that uses 0.5gal/Hr. max. At less than 60MPH the generator
would cycle on and off to meet demand; further increasing the MPG at
slower speeds.
Tim
jerry dycus wrote:
My E woody gets MOL 100wthrs/mile from the plug at 45mph
proven by plugging in to an AC power pole type
electric meter divided by the miles driven. I did this
many times commuting to work over 2 yrs.
It's CD is about .38 or so with cheap tires with
35lbs in them , a 2 speed contactor controller with a
resistor for starting and a full power speed contactor
running 150 amps with 4 gge wire, no doors so not
optimized at all. But it weighs only 1,000lbs!!!
So I expect that my new optimized composite
Freedom EV with a CD of about .24, low resistance
tires, PWM controller, 1,300lb, 2 more eff motors
series/parallel with a higher gear ratio to do about
100wthr/mile at 60mph which isn't that hard as you are
going 33% more miles.
Also I'm not the only person getting this low
power level as John Bryan? gets the same in his VW
Ghia at a fair more weight, slightly worse aero though
slightly lower frontal area.
Now compare that to most lead mine conversions
weighing 2-4 times as much with much worse CD and
frontal area and it's no wonder you all get
250-600wthrs/mile and why I refuse to build such
ineff, costly machines.
Of course that's because I'm cheap both for
materials to build such a beast but also so much
electricity to run it. I'm proud of my $.01/mile
electric fuel cost. Mine can compete head on with
ICE's on a cost bassis and win including battery costs
by a lot!! Can yours?
My total costs including title/tag, materials,
batts ,maintance, electric, ect over 8 yrs on the E
woody has been $170/yr!!
Also the drag curves from EV of America also
bear this out with projecting under 6kw to do 60mph.
So a 7-8kw gen will work fine for what I want to do.
For your bloated EV conversions, then yes, you
will need more as I've always said, about
5-7kw/1,000lbs of EV depending on it's eff.
So for your say 4,000lb EV, yes you would need
20-25kw of gen to do 65mph steady.
But again, I refuse to build such a wasteful
vehicle. EV's to be really eff, cost effective, must
be built as EV's, not an overweight conversion to be
truly good, eff as mine is.
No?
Since you easily get 11-12kw from a gal of gas in
a DC gen and I get 100wthrs/mile.
Jerry Dycus
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Ken Trough wrote:
Is this really the consensus? I've seen a lot of race rides with ETEKs
juiced up beyond 330A. What about Brian's dual etek and baby zilla
cycle? What about the monster pocket bikes? Aren't there many examples
of ETEKs running at above 330A?
Hi Ken
Much of the issue seems to boil down to time vs. temperature.
What might work in a drag race won't work on a long and steep hillclimb.
Brian Hall's MilEcycle used a single Etek and a 48V 650A controller, and was
a NEDRA record holder-
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/354.html
The life of an Etek sometimes depends on solder not melting in critical
areas.
So Ken... I did not see you notify this list concerning your aquisition of
Badsey and the newly formed company.
Here is Ken's new site for those who don't know about it (shameless plug
:^D)-
http://zortch.visforvoltage.com/
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
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Offset terminals are design for straight line connections. The offset terminal
allows the cables to miss the battery caps going to the next battery.
In straight line connections, the long side of the battery is place side by
side with alternating positive and negatives post placed by turning the next
battery around.
Let's say a battery is 10 inches by 7 inches, all the cable lengths will be
about 7 inches long when batteries are place side by side and with batteries
place end to end, they will be 10 inches long.
This is a nice neat way to place cables, without having them criss crossing all
over the place. This allows all the bolt fasteners to be all align up in the
same direction.
Makes for easy cleaning of the battery surfaces.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Stotts<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: Battery connection question (addendum)
Matt Holthausen wrote:
> A PDF of the pro master battery line with an illustration of the
> terminal type is at
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/pdfs/0248.pdf<http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/pdfs/0248.pdf>
About the battery in the picture, why in the world did they bother to
move the terminal over like that?
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Say, would any of you guys happen to be willing to put some of this
great information on a page for everyones future benefit and reference?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_pack#Calculating_State_Of_Charge
Simply click on the little edit button to the right of that section!
You don't even have to regester as a user and can remain anonymous.
ThanX !!
L8r
Ryan
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Hi David and All,
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 7 Jul 2005 at 12:26, jerry dycus wrote:
>
> > They have automatic timing advance standard
> with
> > good 8.3-1 compression ratio and OHV's ...
> > With some tuning on top of that with a 3 gas
> > analyzer, it can be made as low as cars.
>
> Yep, those are proven techniques. They're the very
> ones that Detroit and
> Tokyo used to meet EPA standards - for 1973.
And still used today, No?
You fail to understand that a motor running at 1
speed is much easier, cheaper to control pollution
than an engine that must go from smooth idle to
5500rpm.
Also it warms up 95% faster and 90% of an engine's
emissions come in that period. And even less on mine
as it will rarely be started, mostly by far running on
electricity.
Unlike you, I had to actually make engines not
designed for emissions pass the same EPA standards as
Detroit's cars do and ours has to each pass an
emissions labratory standard we had to pay $5k/test
for so it didn't pay to fail it in order for the cars
to be imported as the next test would be $5k more!!
And as for the improvements in emissions, we are at
the point of no returns as now when a modern engine
drives, it's output is cleaner than the air going in
it in many localities except for a lack of O2.
The difference of 99% lower pollution is not much
difference between 99.99 though 100x cleaner in
numbers, in reality, it makes little difference to the
air as you are down to the point that plants breathing
make more airborne HC's than a car will.
>
> > Especially as they only are 1/10 or less the
> size,
> > thus put out even less volume of CO2 or other
> > pollutants/mile.
>
> In automotive applications, smaller engines usually
> release less CO2 per
> mile - as long as they burn less fuel per mile, a
> relationship that isn't
> necessarily 100% linear.
While a real small engine will probably always
make slightly more pollution than a larger one per hp,
one can get close enough so it doesn't make a real
difference.
Now add the fact that it is used only 5-10% of the
time and make fewer hp than a larger engine must make
just to rotate, and you should start to see just how
little pollution is made overall comparatively.
>
> Other emissions don't always scale with engine size
> as one might expect.
> For example, all other things being equal, a small
> engine working hard
> typically emits more NOx than a large one loafing
That depends on many things like mixture richness,
temp as if you lean an engine out for economy, it
raises the temps making more NOx. So a loafing engine
run lean will make just as much or more NOx as and
harder driven one on a richer mixture.
So one example does not make the point. The best
way to make lower pollution levels in tuning each
engine for the lowest levels.
And getting the mixture, timing correct is much
easier at 1 rpm, 1 load as I'll have!!
>
> Of course you can control NOx with a 3-way catalytic
Or run it rich enough and/or with enough EGR
and/or water injection and/or timing. There are many
tools to keeping NOx low.
But using a cat is a possibility as they are now
available in small engine sizes.
> converter. But then
> you have to devote space to the cat, and it requires
They don't take up any more space than a muffler
and you can use a much smaller muffler if you use a
cat. Anyway I have the room, it's weight I need to
keep low.
But I'd use a cat for HC's, not NOx as there are
better ways for that.
> precise engine control -
> meaning you need a microprocessor, just as the
> automakers discovered 25
> years ago.
Only on variable speed ICE motors which mine is
not.
When you design something you can do a lot of
things to get just what you want. I use steady
speeds/load to simplify my emissions control while
getting a better result. KIS
>
> > If used with E85 or Ethanol, even better!!
>
> Ethanol is not a cure-all. It reduces CO but may
> actually increase other
> emissions, including some unregulated compounds. A
Depends on the engine, how it's set up and tuned!!
>
> (http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~landerso/97rp13905.htm)
>
> Ethanol sounds like a good renewable fuel, but its
> production requires
> considerable petroleum fuel and petrochemical
It may be done that way but doesn't have to as
farmers are now finding out making their own
fertilizer, fuels at much lower costs. They are
removing themselves from the big agro business, big
oil and become fuel makers themselves.
> fertilizer input. Estimates
You've been listening to the propaganda machine
again. Professor Pimental(wrong spelling?), the one
who says EV are an eviromental menace is the same one
who did the 'studies' that 'proved' this. Of course he
gets most of his money/ grants from the oil, auto
industry!!
If you look at it closely, after you make the
ethanol, the dried mash is a better animal feed from
as it's predigested, higher protein from the yeast
than it was before it was made into ethanol!!
So since it is still just as good animal feed
which is what 95% of corn is used for, it takes no
food out of the system.
So you get .5lb of corn oil which can be used as
biodiesel, 2.8gal of ethanol, 1 bushel of dried mash
for animal feed and this doesn't count the corn stalk
that can also feed animals from 1 bushel of corn.
This makes the ethanol feedstock basicly free as
the byproducts pay for it thus the cost of ethanol is
the cost of processing it, about $.30-40/gal +
profit!!
In the future, it's been found out the corn stalks
have as much sugar as the seeds do and what the Inca's
actually used corn for, it's stalk sugar to make
beer!!! The corn ears are a recent breeding
improvement. The very little corn ears you see in
gormet salads, ect about 2" high are what the first
corn was, still is in the wilds of Mexico!!
And the fiber parts as almost any biomass can be
made into syn gas, H2 and CO that a much cleaner
gasoline, diesel and many other chemicals are made
from. The Nazi's used a similar process, F/T, with
coal but as biomass doesn't have sulfur, other
impurities, it is even better than coal.
So please, ethanol is completely economic, ADM is
just taking us for a ride. Check out their profit
margin on this!
For something so uneconomic, why are they doubling
the amount of ethanol made each year? Do investors,
companies want to go bankrupt? I don't think so. It's
a proven money maker now.
>
> I might also point out that once consumption of
> feedstock for fuels extends
> beyond farm surplus, we are into the realm in which
> fueling vehicles can
> literally take food out of mouths. Of course
Another lie they are feeding you. See above on
ethanol and it's about the same for other plants.
Most of our farm land has been abandoned so much of
it could be reopenned and the farm belt revitalized if
we were to go to a more farm based fuel supply.
Farm based fuels could supply 15%, oil sands, tars,
reg oil supply 25%, EV supply 30% and conservation
supply 30% is a long term solution to our energy,
transportation problems.
Electricity can come from NG, wind, hydro, non dam
hydro, Nuke, biomass, solar thermal and hopefully
lower cost solar cells.
Coal should be used as little as possible because
of radioactive, mercury, other heavy metals, NOx,
other emissions. Google radioactive coal emissions for
a real eye opener.
My non dam hydro, basicly windgens under water
with very small turbines, can when fully developed
supply all the EV electicity needs with some to spare
from our rivers, tidal sources moving at 2mph or
faster!!
> alcohol can be produced from
> petroleum, but then you're right back where you
> started from.
No need.
>
> This is all I'm going to say on this matter. This
> discussion is threatening
> to wander off topic and is generating too much
> acrimony.
I'll just have to prove what I'm saying and will
over the next yr.
EV's are the furure as straight EV's or as batt
dominated plug in hybrids and we need to help each
other to make this happen for both our national and
economic security.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
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I would imagine that if you can keep it cool, then you can run it
up to it's maximum peak for longer periods. Say 600Amps for many
minutes as long as you can remove all that extra heat which would
otherwise melt it down in a matter of 10 seconds at that rate.
Forced air is probably a "must have" feature as the Etek has very
little thermal mass, so all the heat stays in the sensetive parts
of the motor, active cooling will definently help quite a bit.
Sorry I don't have any figures for you,
but you're on the right track.
L8r
Ryan
Ken Trough wrote:
The Etek is rated for 300A for 30 seconds (or 330A for 1 minute,
depending on whose specs you read), and 20HP peak/8HP continuous or
15HP peak/6HP continuous, again depending whose specs you read.
I appreciate the points, but most of us know that the published specs on
many motors can be safely exceeded, sometimes by a great margin. I'm
interested in the actual limits, not the published specs.
Will an ETEK really melt down if you exceed 330A for one minute? I've
read about meltdowns, but they seem rare and usually under long and
steep climbing conditions.
I assume that forced air cooling raises these thresholds considerably?
What kind of sustained high amp draw can you pull on an ETEK with forced
air cooling? Figure a 5 minute rate, for a sustained hill climb of a
couple three miles.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
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